Men are not the only problem. Women are just as susceptible to helping perpetuate the biases and inequalities in society.
Edit: I assumed you typed something different than you meant. Looks like I misunderstood you.
5 Uncomfortable Truths Behind the Men's Rights Movement
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Men are not the only problem. Women are just as susceptible to helping perpetuate the biases and inequalities in society.
Edit: I assumed you typed something different than you meant. Looks like I misunderstood you.
User 100115
Banned
I'm curious what you, females as a whole, males as a whole, each think a chart that lines up partners would look like and how that compares to actuality. Especially on the bottom - low to no sexual activity - portion of the chart.
I think a study could be done and it certainly might have been done already. Though I am always weary of surveys that ask for number of partners and number of times people have sex.
Edit: obviously not referencing the before/after revolution crap of the figure, just how one would stratify sexual partners for each sex in a similar manner as the chart.
I've been reading through the reddit link posted earlier for about the last half-hour, and the overriding feeling/emotion coming across to me through what's being highlighted is a feeling of ostracization. There's a lot of stuff on gendered physical/sexual abuse and assault towards males, with legal custody issues #2, and then...stupid stuff. Like, really dumb stuff (Why do we draft males and not females? Because males are way better at killing people!) It's like 50% idiocy, but 50% where it seems like there's been this rejection in the past, where they feel like they just didn't have the ability to be taken seriously. Where if maybe they had Mumei there instead of whoever they talked to, things would have been better and they could have been redirected into a more productive direction.
I suspect a large part of the issue may be in that in response to that feeling of rejection, they end up reciprocating the behavior they perceive in retaliation instead of trying to find another path. On the male assault/abuse stuff, a group like RAINN seems much more in line with what they're trying to accomplish on that front, and a much more effective outlet for trying to address those sorts of issues, as its a group that explicitly covers all genders/ages. Trying to go "their own way" as a reflection seems to be hugely problematic, as there just aren't enough serious issues under the "male" umbrella to make lumping them together a good use of anyone's time. The legal representation in family court appears to be the other big tentpole issue, and that could be taken much more seriously if jettisoned from a the larger umbrella as well.
I vehemently disagree with the people claiming that a proper MRA movement is not necessary because men are on the top of the social food chain. In fact these claims prooves the need for a proper MRA movement, for it is pretty clear to me that noone is giving two shits about the problems that men face that goes beyond "my ex is a she-devil", starting with these MRA sites exposed by Cracked. Not to mention that these claims echoes the harming social assumption that if you're a men you are absolutely alright and that if you dare to complain about anything or ask for help then you are somehow emasculated, that crap is alive and well on this very tread.
The problem of the MRA movement is that it has been built by opposition, like any other identity group. And frankly, the world is already filled to the brim with these type of shitty circle-jerking post modern "identitities" and God knows we don't need to add yet another one. There are several problems that affects men that then becomes even bigger because they are not recogniced in the first place, nor adressed. Men rape, increasing unemployement and school drop out rates, custody rights, a very narrowed number of social roles and what is "to be a men", increased suicide rates on young men...
These problems need practical solutions and calm analysis, not an endless stream of instantaneous self-congratulation, blaming on "the other" (namely, women) and finger pointing. Ironically enough, the current MRA is balls deep into copying the same flaws that modern feminism have developed over the time and that they hate so much (and then added some of their own). We deserve better than that crap.
The problem of the MRA movement is that it has been built by opposition, like any other identity group. And frankly, the world is already filled to the brim with these type of shitty circle-jerking post modern "identitities" and God knows we don't need to add yet another one. There are several problems that affects men that then becomes even bigger because they are not recogniced in the first place, nor adressed. Men rape, increasing unemployement and school drop out rates, custody rights, a very narrowed number of social roles and what is "to be a men", increased suicide rates on young men...
These problems need practical solutions and calm analysis, not an endless stream of instantaneous self-congratulation, blaming on "the other" (namely, women) and finger pointing. Ironically enough, the current MRA is balls deep into copying the same flaws that modern feminism have developed over the time and that they hate so much (and then added some of their own). We deserve better than that crap.
ANY DATA AT ALL REALLY. We're going by anecdotes and internet commenters as evidence here for goodness sake. You have to see that this is not intellectually sound.
Is it really a bad thing for me to hoist up a citation needed sign here?
I'm not making a claim here. My point is that people who ARE (All MRA are X) should have some good evidence for it. And if such evidence isn't there then saying so. Surely that's reasonable.
The claim I AM making is that it's always better to focus on arguments rather than people.
It's bullshit in that an awful lot of people 'involved' in it are just straight idiots. But there are a (small) number of areas where men do get the short stick in the West, child custody rights being a good example.
Certainly though there are more areas where women are disadvantaged. A true gender egalitarian should be fighting biases or injustices against both men and women.
Everyone in their right mind should be a gender egalitarian.
If you think MRA image is false, you could try collecting and presenting here some hard data on the good and useful work and campaigns MRA organizations have done.
It's really weird to have the people making claims requiring me to gather data to debunk said claims rather than citing the data that led them to make the claims in the first place.
D
Deleted member 20920
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It makes it difficult to see these MRA groups as legit groups when most of their arguments seem to revolve around how feminists have made things worse, are out to get all men and how things are unfair for X amount of reasons. Especially when it comes to the reasons part, like how problems like getting into college crime among men, suicide and what not. These groups need to focus on not just the what (the problems faced) but also the why and try to do more research and create better literature as to how we came to such a stage and how we could possibly start to reduce these problems. Then we need groups to actually do something, like proper petitions and creating actual support groups to help men. Do we have groups to counsel young men who have gone into crime? What about support groups where men can talk about their problems without being called unmanly? How about people who could pffer legal help or advice, for men with can't afford legal fees and advice when it comes to divorces and custodies? I think these are some things that MRA groups can do to actually help.
Instead most of what is seen are groups that gather online to gather self pity to further justify their own ideas about being persecuted by the invisible female demons. Yes there are those who really want to help and who call themselves MRA members. But bases on what has been done and said, there are too little of them.
To be fair you're also making a claim yourself so it will be nice if you could provide some kind of data that says that MRAs are taking serious steps to do something. Many here have talked about sites and actions (like that horrible "Girls lie about consent!" campaign) that seems to indicate that most of these MRAs are just interested in blaming and not doinh anything except further their own misconceptions about women.
You're not required to. It would just be nice and interesting to read. Isn't the main problem here that MRA has a horrible image as a group of people who do nothing useful and just whine about women on the internet. What kind of evidence would you take? Door-to-door interviews for Redpill members?
For example:
My main exposure to MRA is TheRedPill. Which is clearly terribly misogynistic just from reading the thread names and the fact that they politely remind you to subscribe to "/r/PussyPass" at the top of the page.
So I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to positive MRA groups.
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
Evidence on what they have been doing in general. Like how serious activists of any kind tend to actually organise things to change things. Or support groups and such. Not just text on the internet.
Saying that it's an "image problem" implies that MRA groups actually do useful things instead of whining about women on the internet. I haven't really seen any evidence pointing otherwise, so I'm gonna stick with the common view that they're just bitter, resentful, and often misogynistic guys.
eot
Banned
That's every subreddit ever.
TatteredHat
Member
Both the Men's Rights Movement and Feminism have been poisoned at this point, as far as I'm concerned, but I've probably spent too much time reading about very angry teenagers on tumblr.
Real life feminism strives for equality, internet feminism seems to be striving for permanent victimhood of women by making twitter hashtags.
Real life feminism strives for equality, internet feminism seems to be striving for permanent victimhood of women by making twitter hashtags.
Alcoremortis
Member
Well, this confirms that Elliot Rogers was even more of an asshole than we thought, that he thought ending the entire species was just retribution for not having a girlfriend.
But the first two panels of this chart... I'm not even sure if that's remotely factually accurate. I mean, I'm inclined to believe that unsuccessful hypo men are actually more likely to get sex in a liberated environment. Because before, marriages would be mainly "arranged" or at the least need approval from the parents... and parents weren't going to approve of anyone for their daughter who wasn't of equal or higher social status than them.
Now, at least, there's the chance for girls who want to stick it to their parents and go with someone said parents wouldn't approve of. It's probably not going to be the low-status unattractive guy... but it could very well be the hot guy with big muscles who's as dumb as a bag of rocks.
entremet
Member
Mumei always brings erudite posts these discussions.
I do agree that there are some male centric problems that need to be addressed (male underachievement in the school system, prison rape, and drug laws, which disportionately affect black men and strips them of reintegration into society, but attacking feminisms isn't a way to do it.
There should be a dialogue between both issues both sexes face, not a shouting match.
I do agree that there are some male centric problems that need to be addressed (male underachievement in the school system, prison rape, and drug laws, which disportionately affect black men and strips them of reintegration into society, but attacking feminisms isn't a way to do it.
There should be a dialogue between both issues both sexes face, not a shouting match.
That was Elliot Rodgers' chart, but the "before sexual revolution / after sexual revolution" nonsense was not something he created himself.
Never saw ths .....
WHAT ?
How ..... when ...... WHY ?
I know very little about MRA or PUA, but I did read some MRA blogs because of the supposed link between MRA and Elliot Rodger. Of course they distanced themselves from PUA claiming MRA is about men's rights issues and not how to pick up women. On the surface that would seem to make sense.
In my mind I have not yet established if MRA and PUA are essentially the same. :s
In my mind I have not yet established if MRA and PUA are essentially the same. :s
When I did an internship at the townhall, part of that was visiting the different offices. One of them was the ministry of women's affairs. They talked about their work and I really, obviously still do, appreciated their work. But the question was coming up in my mind, what about men? Men are far, far less likely victims, but you know, a victim on its own, noone to talk to is not a nice picture. They deserve help. So I asked. After a long period of silence interrupted by loud thinking, the answer was the police. So I do think, we need more... justice, help for men.
But, and here comes a huge but, what men rights activists tend to overlook, these things didn't happen because women are preferred or something. It was an answer to opression. To sexual exploitation. Women were, and to a large part sadly still are, considered to be the prey. Men the predators. They are supposed to get pussies. They don't refuse sex, they get sex. They are emotionless pussy hunters, so to speak. Feminism is part of the answer to that, not the problem. That men don't have to be those emotionless pussy hunters. That they don't have to press sex out of her. That they don't have to objectify, because, ironically, this is objectifying them. In a world where women are not the prey anymore, they can be victims.
Mock me if I phrased it wrong or didn't get it.
But, and here comes a huge but, what men rights activists tend to overlook, these things didn't happen because women are preferred or something. It was an answer to opression. To sexual exploitation. Women were, and to a large part sadly still are, considered to be the prey. Men the predators. They are supposed to get pussies. They don't refuse sex, they get sex. They are emotionless pussy hunters, so to speak. Feminism is part of the answer to that, not the problem. That men don't have to be those emotionless pussy hunters. That they don't have to press sex out of her. That they don't have to objectify, because, ironically, this is objectifying them. In a world where women are not the prey anymore, they can be victims.
Mock me if I phrased it wrong or didn't get it.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I agree with this premise.
There's something about MRA and the Men's Rights groups that never sat well with me, considering their complains were about not being able to have lots and lots of sex.
To me, in my non professional opinion, a true men's rights group would protect men of all races, creeds, ethnicities, gay, transgendered, etc. from their own stereotypes. That's it.
A good MR group would be more like the ACLU or the NAACP or the JDL, but it's difficult to get large swathes of men to agree even on the tiniest of things.
A lot of what men identify as masculine is shaped by culture and social cues. Fathers reinforce that idea tenfold and punish those who go against the grain.
Personally, being Latino, masculinity is tied to our pride, both in heritage and in identity. Machismo is a very real idea, and guys who are seen as "betas" are treated by second class citizens. But Pride is also a deadly sin, and more men need to learn how to swallow their pride.
The only group I'll ever identify with is labor groups. Those groups are much more important to me than the RedPill crap I hear at those PUA sites.
Based on what exactly?
I'm really not making any claims about MRM and MRA either way. I'm just incredibly leery of labeling anything to dismiss it. and I AM saying I'm not seeing any substantial data supporting the claim that 'All MRA are X'. Calling out internet commentators and personal impressions isn't evidence.
Holding up a 'citation needed' sign isn't making a claim at all.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
They really do need more MM Clubhouse on Netflix. I know the pain of Road Rally.
Provide evidence that there is an MRA movement outside of internet commentators, otherwise http://dontstepinthepoop.com/how-to-use-questions-to-hide-the-fact-that-youre-a-douche-bag
This is not what PUA is about at all, even if they insist their worldview on relationships is ideal and correct.
Also, while there is overlap in the feminist-hating rhetoric of PUA and MRA groups, I think it just confuses people to conflate the two group ideologies. Redpill and MRA are pretty different things.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
The basic right of personal freedom. The male incarceration rate is roughly 15 times the female incarceration rate.
It's the same reason people scoff at the "white rights" movement. Whites like men are at the top of the societal food chain and don't particularly need to band together to fight for their rights like minorities and women.
And MRMs are indifferent and downright hostile towards issues affecting minority and gay/transgendered men. They are exclusively white heterosexual males.
I love these threads, you're like "really?"
And then you tell yourself well maybe I'll take a look and see if there's anyone banned that fit the bill
Bingo.
Then again I don't think he's been banned for that,
I just mean that I love GAF.
e: after a bit more reading, yeah no he had it coming.
There would be a lot of progress towards better lives for men (incarceration, abuse, suicide, education) if people focused for example on racism and homophobia, but for some reason MRAs tend to shy away from advocacy in those areas. #notallmenapparently #juststraightwhitemenplease
EDIT: see below
EDIT: see below
in light of things like the prison industrial complex, does that really seem like a direct gender issue? the incarceration rate seems like a proxy for a slew of societal issues that feed people into jails
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Of course it's a direct gender issue. All the way from initial gender roles through enforcement and sentencing. Do you think the higher incarceration rates of blacks isn't a race issue (the disparity there being 'only' 7:1)?
Though, that gender issue is traced directly back to the patriarchy. We have a term for people who struggle against the patriarchy.
I don't know enough about them, but considering that the MRA articles I have seen staunchly deny any relation between the two (mainly from here), I am confused by them being used almost synonymously between some people. That's not to say the MRA's views are right, it's just that if the two movements aren't related, it would be better and more informative to treat them as such.
The two movements, as far as I know, are completely unrelated in goals and methods...
I think some people link them because they've seen people who participate in PUA are also involved in MRA, but that's not because the MRA movement encourages PUA practices.
No, seriously: Be specific. What does "data" mean to you? Does it mean that we have to have study about the men's rights movement and the opinions of its movement? Does it mean that we have to find a survey about it? I'm still getting the impression that this is primarily about trying to deny claims rather than to establish truths. We have repeatedly explained to you that the basis of our opinion about the men's rights movement is a) we are familiar with all of their popular websites, b) we see that misogyny is very popular on those websites, c) we have yet to see any evidence for elements of the men's rights movement that is not misogynist despite having asked for it many times. I think that's enough information to form an opinion on the matter, especially in the absence of any conflicting information.
If you are sincere about just wanting to know about this, find out more yourself. Your question has been asked and answered; if you don't think that's enough information then do the work of educating yourself. Pick up a book. Go to their websites. Go to The Spearhead. Go to A Voice for Men. Go to r/MensRights. Go to r/TheRedPill. Go to the MGTOW forums. Go to Heartise. Read their major personalities like Warren Farrell. You can read those websites and others for weeks and not find anything but misogyny (well, racism and homophobia, too). There are no popular men's rights sites that are not primarily about complaining about women and feminism and suffused in misogyny. Even where they have legitimate grievances, however few and far between, this is still the case.
Or just read this. And for years worth of it, go here, and read the author's article here:
When I started my blog Man Boobz around six months ago, I intended to mostly discuss the issues motivating those in the Men’s Rights Movement, and to highlight some of the sillier misogynist emanations from men’s rights activists (MRAs). But the more I delved into the movement online, the more convinced I became that, for most of those involved in it, the movement isn’t really about the issues at all—rather, it’s an excuse to vent male rage and spew misogyny online.
To borrow a phrase from computer programmers: misogyny isn’t a bug in the Men’s Rights Movement; it’s a feature.
Men’s rights activists aren’t much like any other activists I’ve ever run across. For one thing, for supposed activists they are almost completely inactive. Sure, they complain endlessly about things they see as terrible injustices against men. They just don’t do anything about them. While some of those who consider themselves fathers’ rights activists—a slightly different breed from your garden-variety MRAs—try to influence laws and legislatures, MRAs do little more than cultivate their resentments
To borrow a phrase from computer programmers: misogyny isn’t a bug in the Men’s Rights Movement; it’s a feature.
Men’s rights activists aren’t much like any other activists I’ve ever run across. For one thing, for supposed activists they are almost completely inactive. Sure, they complain endlessly about things they see as terrible injustices against men. They just don’t do anything about them. While some of those who consider themselves fathers’ rights activists—a slightly different breed from your garden-variety MRAs—try to influence laws and legislatures, MRAs do little more than cultivate their resentments
Your question was asked and answered multiple times; move on.
I am making claims about arguments; it just so happens that their arguments are deeply misogynist and it reflects on the movement.
I don't like Cracked because their 'scientific' articles promote bad science without due diligence.
Their 'slice of life' articles are entertaining though.
No, I'm saying that the incarceration rate is probably high for a combination of reasons (including the race reason), and it's a situation that is being fed by a lot of different issues. Gender overlaps with a lot of those issues, so arguing that male incarceration is 15 times higher really only looks like panic about a big number if you don't give any additional context or actual reasoning.
Unless you're arguing that men are discriminated against in every single avenue leading up to incarceration (which is a pretty wide net). If that's the case, then explain what all those causes are. Giving an alarming symptom without any explanation of the disease is just empty shock rhetoric.
I think it's a "thing" in the same way Tumblr demisexuals and otherkin are. Some are doing it to troll, some genuinely believe it, and the internet serves as a positive feedback loop and echo chamber. If you pay attention to it, it can seem like that's the way the whole world is. I think that's where the MRA and feminazis sort of feed each other—each side sees these minority viewpoints as some massive movement that fuels their own legitimacy, when in reality I think there are very few feminists who would this "kill men so we can reign supreme" mindset, just as there are few guys who consciously think "This women owes me this because I am a man". (Not to say that there can't be unconscious biases at issue here.)
I find their "X Blah Blah about Y" articles like these are more often gross simplifications of history, facts, psychology, whathaveyou with the aim of making its readers feel smart when they haven't actually done any real critical reading. Pop culture stuff is fun, but it's also fluff—when it gets to articles like these (or that "you're a shitty person" one that so many people were linking to a while back.) it's worse than useless.
The problem with that is that it makes it seem like there should be equal effort to improve the situation of men and women. Since women have many, many more disadvantages than men, much more attention should be focused on them. That's not to say that I don't think there should be people working on men's issues, just that if you want to make the world more equal, feminism is the way to go.
I'd be very happy if "men's rights" advocates fought against institutionalized racism in our justice and prison system, as a means to actually address large rates of male incarceration. Unfortunately they'd prefer to dream up evo-psych explanations for why women are genetically predisposed to be gold-diggers.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
You guys are doing yourselves a disservice by clumping all these groups into one easy to rail against group.
I thought MRA was a self-identified group? What are the different groups you're talking about?
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