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[DarkFlow]

The article does a good job covering it.

A good MR group would advocate for gay men.

It would advocate for men of color.

It would advocate for all the male nurses, flight attendants, interior decoraters, theater performers, cosmologists, etc. and their right to "masculinity."

It would advocate for stay-at-home dads.

It would advocate for fairer laws regarding parental rights of responsible fathers in cases where they are not married to the mother of their child in issues regarding healthcare and adoption.

It would educate against the pro-aggression, emotional detachment model by which young men are often raised.

It would rail against many traditional ideas of masculinity, in favor of new ideas that are more inclusive, more tolerant, and less likely to leave our boys emotionally fucked-up when they don't (or can't) conform to their rigidity.

In short: proper MR groups would be more like feminists instead of foaming at the mouth against them and making the entire movement about "those evil Feminists" and reminiscing about "the good old days" that actually weren't so good if you were weren't a straight white guy.

Why is this getting ignored so much? I'm a stay at home dad, and people treat me like I'm a alien.

 

[Terrell]

There are 2 reasons why MRA (which I'm using to define the ugly movements as we see on the internet) is the way it is:

First, some believe that suffering is inherent in the human condition, and if you advocate for a specific group to overcome said suffering, you shouldn't be. Case in point, MRA supporters believe that, because many men suffer in silence, feminists should keep their mouths shut and follow their example in lieu of actually advocating for the reduction of suffering on all fronts.

And second, and perhaps the major problem... the ones who are mostly responsible for men's inequality issues are OTHER MEN. Toxic masculinity and reinforced gender roles that lead to things like unequal child custody rulings and discrimination of men in jobs perceived as "feminine" (among MANY others) are primarily reinforced by other men TO other men. I won't say that women don't do this, as some most certainly do, but if we're looking a little deeper, those same women also aren't likely to stand up for feminism in any proper sense, either. Consider them just socially irresponsible in totality with regards to gender equality.

So the problem is that MRA perceive that they're being attacked by women... so if men are responsible for all of the social ills that women face in modern society (which, keep in mind, is the fabricated notion of what feminism is to most of them), SURELY it must be the other way around for men. And no further investigation is performed on the subject, because if MRA men admitted that other men are also largely responsible for men's social ills, as well, it would require an admittance that men have been programmed by society to be dogmatic and unjust with regards to gender roles and use their current position of power in society to reinforce them and maintain their position, despite the harm it does to men, as well.

They'd have to actually evaluate what's more important to them: the continued subjugation of women on an overarching societal level, or actually addressing men's issues in earnest.

Truthfully, I would consider putting REAL men's rights advocacy under the banner of humanism, as most people who would advocate for these issues are likely to advocate for ALL inequality issues.

 

[Unbounded]

Reading that mensrights reddit thread everyone seems pretty level-headed about stuff...

What's the problem here again?

 

[zhorkat]

If the guy really wanted to do that though, nothing would stop him. Except his own insecurity. Not everyone is so sensitive that the judgement of others shape their actions. Instead of trying to get people to STOP doing something like this male nurse shaming(how would you even do that? protests?) you can teach the guy to stop giving a shit, which is a LOT more powerful because that confidence and security will seep into other areas of his life.

If you teach people to not hold on to traditional notions of masculinity, that seeps into many aspects of everybody's lives. Also, there isn't just the guy that wants to be a stay-at-home dad but is too insecure. There is also the woman who wants to pursue a career, but is married to some dude who doesn't think men should raise children, and so has to quit her job to raise their kid.

 

[APF]

I honestly thing the suicide thing is partly because of the more destructive methods chosen (example, guns vs pills) but has a lot to do with the idea that depression and seeking help for it makes a man 'weak' and that talking about their feelings or even acknowledging they exist is 'wussy' or 'womanly'. So I very much blame Traditional gender roles for that as well.

This is very true as well. So much of the "this is what a man really is" stuff that I see coming from MRA folks is typical traditional nonsense (+ obligatory women bashing phrased as Platonic "equality") that persists in shaming men who don't adhere to anachronistic concepts that don't really mesh with contemporary society.

Men are less likely to seek help, which is a factor in the high rate.

Because, as seen above, it's seen as contrary to Traditional Gender Roles.

Unfortunately, what you've said here isn't true. At least, not in my experience. From what I've seen, raising male related issues in a feminist forum is nearly always met with derision of WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ and shit like that. There is far too much gender tribalism in gender politics.

Golly, maybe it has something to do with derailing conversations instead of participating in them? When I've discussed men with actual human beings in real life face to face and who happened to be feminists I do not encounter reactions like you claim to have been exposed to. Perhaps there is a difference in how we approach the subjects.

 

[Kite]

Why is this getting ignored so much? I'm a stay at home dad, and people treat me like I'm a alien.

Cus it doesn't fit the narrative that MRAs are terrible and men are stupid, shouldn't complain and should just stfu. Suck it up cupcake

 

[CornBurrito]

Man replace male with black in that statement or replace 'male nurse' with 'female doctor' and you'll see the problem. Social ridicule and lack of acceptance is an incredibly powerful force and telling someone to 'man up' and just deal with it is a horribly bad attitude to take.

Yeah I don't get how people manage to underestimate how powerful social pressure is. Humans are extremely social creatures. You aren't going to change that by ignoring it. Ironically, telling someone to "man up" instead of attempting to change social norms is also an attempt to use social pressure to change or constrict someone's behavior.

 

[CLEEK]

So again, you acknowledge there is a wide diversity of beliefs, but instead choose to base your judgements on some random tweet or because you don't like #yesallwomen for "some reason". Your posts make you come across as someone dealing with a large amount of cognitive dissonance.

Again, you're trying to downplay my experience of many years of seeing feminism and feminist views discussed on the internet as 'not liking some random tweet'. And then you resort to weak ad hominem attack. If you don't have the ability to debate something properly, then maybe you should stop posting.

Edit:

OK, let's take a different tact.

Golly, maybe it has something to do with derailing conversations instead of participating in them? When I've discussed men with actual human beings in real life face to face and who happened to be feminists I do not encounter reactions like you claim to have been exposed to. Perhaps there is a difference in how we approach the subjects.

I'm not going to downplay your experience of discussing feminist issue with your actual friends and peers. I fully accept that are decent,rational, intelligent people out there who make up a sizeable chunk of the feminist movement. If the folks you talk with meet this criteria, then good.

But what you are doing is projecting your personal experience to dismiss my personal experience. They're both anecdotal, and both true based on our own experiences.

Discussions about feminism or gender politics rarely comes up in my personal life with my wife, colleagues or friends. But I get daily exposure to it from the internet. And that daily exposure shows time and again there are some really toxic viewpoints that fall under the umbrella of feminism.

Are you denying these toxic views exists? As that is what it sounds like your overarching point it.

 

[User 100115]

Cus it doesn't fit the narrative that MRAs are terrible and men are stupid, shouldn't complain and should just stfu. Suck it up cupcake

Um what?

People are saying that's what MRAs SHOULD BE DOING when in fact they seem to only want to complain about feminism and pretend rape doesn't exist.

 

[Devolution]

Again, you're trying to downplay my experience of many years of seeing feminism and feminist views discussed on the internet as 'not liking some random tweet'. And then you resort to weak ad hominem attack. If you don't have the ability to debate something properly, then maybe you should stop posting.

Many years of ignoring mainstream feminism.

 

[Gotchaye]

If you'd bothered to read what was said, you would see that I was differentating between judging a group (demographic based on things people have no control over, like race or gender) and self selected ideologies.

It is stupid to judge a group based on the actions of individuals, but its different when judging a political ideology based on a vocal subsection of its supporters.

This is also pretty stupid, though, because it's poisonous to all political ideology. There's no influential political ideology that lacks an annoying vocal subsection. When you take guilt by association to such an extreme, you make it impossible to not be guilty. You're just throwing up your hands and excusing yourself from coordinated political action. For people who actually care about achieving political change, your standard is way too strict.

Unfortunately, what you've said here isn't true. At least, not in my experience. From what I've seen, raising male related issues in a feminist forum is nearly always met with derision of WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ and shit like that. There is far too much gender tribalism in gender politics.

It's pretty clear that feminists are a very significant share of people actually trying to do something about this stuff, and certainly here on neogaf feminists basically never crash threads about such issues with "what about the menz?" derision. Generally responses in such threads are much more decent than responses in threads about issues facing women. Threads about men's issues often don't last long, probably because they're not actually controversial - no one's actually willing to argue that such issues are unimportant or somehow fake.

I really only see "what about the menz" derision in response to people who come into discussions about some women's issue to ask that very question. Surely you've seen that a lot of the criticism of MRA types is that they don't seem to really care about these issues; they just use them as ammunition against feminism and to derail discussion of other issues that they'd rather not see discussed.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Cus it doesn't fit the narrative that MRAs are terrible and men are stupid, shouldn't complain and should just stfu. Suck it up cupcake

Do you have a response that isn't whining? Articulate your point of view instead of playing victim.

 

[Kite]

Um what?

People are saying that's what MRAs SHOULD BE DOING when in fact they seem to only want to complain about feminism and pretend rape doesn't exist.

I just spent some time on the reddit men rights thread posted a few pages back, to my surprise and against the narrative I've been reading on gaf that is exactly what they are talking about.

Do you have a response that isn't whining? Articulate your point of view instead of playing victim.

I'm still doing my research. Until about half an hour ago I just assumed that the MRAs were guys just whining about women. But now that I'm actually reading their stuff, surprise surprise I'm reminded yet again that I shouldn't take anything I read here at face value and I should do my own research first. There is plenty of stuff there is that pretty cringe worthy but they aren't the blindly hateful group I was led to believe.

 

[APF]

Again, you're trying to downplay my experience of many years of seeing feminism and feminist views discussed on the internet as 'not liking some random tweet'. And then you resort to weak ad hominem attack. If you don't have the ability to debate something properly, then maybe you should stop posting.

Again, you claim to recognize a wide variety in philosophies and ideologies in a movement that is actually politically active and you can observe operating in the real world, and instead choose to focus on whatever negative links on the backwaters of the internet you choose to be exposed to. You still haven't acknowledged how frivolous this perspective is.

 

[royalan]

Bravo.

I'd add some of the things Mumei makes threads about: advocacy for male rape victims and male victims of domestic violence (current MRA groups tend to instead focus on anti-advocacy for female victims for some goddamn reason), prison reform advocacy, specifically aiming at prison rape, and of course reform of our racist justice system.

Agree with all of this. In truth, there are a LOT of issues plaguing men that these groups could be addressing without spending the bulk of their time squaring off against women.

Are those things and the things royalan really part of "men's rights" though? I mean our racist justice system is about as it gets but I don't see a lot of these things as MR issues.

As for some of these other things...
What does "right to masculinity" even mean? A male nurse has his masculinity taken away? By who? Why does a stay at home dad need advocates on his behalf? So that mean people on the internet won't call him a housewife?

It seems to me like a lot of these issues fall under the umbrella of other groups that are already established OR they are just things that a normal secure man could just brush off and say "I don't give a fuck what they say about me."

What the hell is a normal secure man? And how are you so sure that that would be their response? I'd like to see myself as "secure" and confident in a lot of respects. However, I'm also not an idiot, nor do I turn a blind eye to the negative experiences in my life and how they may have affected me emotionally in ways I probably still can't fully understand. And trust me, being a gay black male has had adverse effects on my life experiences thanks to the rigid standards of masculinity our society props up and the many, many ways I just don't fit.

But, I digress.

Cohesive, functional rights movements don't just exist to combat the real, tangible laws that discriminate against certain populations. The also exist to combat the underlying social attitudes that fuel the very creation of these laws and that prop them up. This education is the kind of thing that leads to real, long-lasting change.

A legit MR's group that wants to be taken seriously wouldn't just focus on the perceived legal slights plaguing men, but also the cultural attitudes and systemic beliefs that ultimately lead up to "real" discrimination -- like the idea that there are certain careers that men shouldn't pursue because they aren't "manly." Or certain standards of dress, or approaches to conflict, or political alignments, or income brackets that don't meet the standard of what it is to be a "real man."

In a somewhat unrelated note, men had a pretty awesome movement earlier this year, with #CockInASock, which was intended to spread awareness and drum up funding for Cancer Awareness UK. It was pretty successful in gaining visibility (in more ways than one, actually..). Too bad most of these MR's groups were too busy attacking feminists to take part in something positive that would actually benefit them without tearing the other side down.

 

[Simon Belmont]

Maybe my experience of feminism has been coloured in some ways even if I do occasionally think they make good points. To give an example I am critical of people who claim to be proponents of something when they initially played lip service to it or at worst talked about the exact opposite. A good example being people talking about the toxic effects of masculinity in the Elliot Rogers threads, yet weeks and months earlier they engaged in constant virgin shaming that can fuel thoughts like that that Rogers had. This is something I know I called out and occasionally other posters too. As for reading a book not making you a Don Juan, well that's obvious. If some enterprising writer wants to make the "Feminist guide to improving your dating life" maybe they can set some men on what they believe is the write path whilst making a killing.

Also as for singling out feminism. I am critical of MRA groups. I think they come across as a bit slut shamey and since that leads to things like false rape confessions they aren't doing themselves any favours.

Unless the contents of either of those books is basically "Be yourself, find someone with enough similar interests that you can effectively communicate with each other" I'm not on board.

I haven't had nearly enough experience to cast a definitive judgement, but what I've seen of PUAs gives me the impression that it's a bunch of lonely dudes desperately trying to learn how to talk to women, but what they're really learning is how to be shitty to women.

 

[CornBurrito]

Cus it doesn't fit the narrative that MRAs are terrible and men are stupid, shouldn't complain and should just stfu. Suck it up cupcake

Yeah, it is so ignored that it has only been quoted in this thread like 30 fucking times.

 

[User 100115]

I just spent some time on the reddit men rights thread posted a few pages back, to my surprise and against the narrative I've been reading on gaf that is exactly what they are talking about.

The majority of MRA groups spend a lot of time talking about stuff, sure. And then place the blame on feminism and call it a day. There is a more recently 'new wave' occurring in the men's rights circles, where they are trying to make their image better by using kinder language and not being 'anti-women', while remaining very much anti-feminism. Which to me is very much NOT the thing to be doing if you want issues like prison rape and male rape to be taken seriously, since the majority of people that are actually trying to take steps toward making those things not a joke and bringing more attention to them are feminists.

 

[Azih]

There's no influential political ideology that lacks an annoying vocal subsection. When you take guilt by association to such an extreme, you make it impossible to not be guilty. You're just throwing up your hands and excusing yourself from coordinated political action. For people who actually care about achieving political change, your standard is way too strict.

Shouldn't that be applied to men's rights movements as well as feminists?

when in fact they seem to only want to complain about feminism and pretend rape doesn't exist.

The seem to want to is a warning flag to me. That doesn't seem like it's a point of view backed by hard data of any sort.

 

[hipsterpants]

If MRAs are fighting for "equality" how exactly do they define equality? What would make men and women "equal"?

 

[bigmf]

I just spent some time on the reddit men rights thread posted a few pages back, to my surprise and against the narrative I've been reading on gaf that is exactly what they are talking about.

This is true, the example reddit post was fairly tame stuff and apart from one or two goobers who were downvoted, it doesn't seem worthy of derision.

 

[Angelus Errare]

 

[DarkFlow]

Being a Stay at home dad, I can see where a VERY small % of the MRA people come from. When I tell people I am, I get odd looks, jokes about being a woman, things of that nature. When I take my 2 year old to the park, I get looked at like I'm some kinda creeper and generally just kinda have to keep to myself unless some other kid wonders into my sons zone and then I might get a short chat with a adult.

 

[riotous]

Why is this getting ignored so much? I'm a stay at home dad, and people treat me like I'm a alien.

That's actually not a topic that all MRA types ignore.

Although it's mostly bitter rabble about child support payments, they do delve into all kinds of male role issues when it pertains to parenting.

So much bitter negativity mixed in that it get's lost, but it's there.

Some sort of bad situation with kids and divorce often seams to be the catalyst for someone getting into the "MRA movement."

 

[Gotchaye]

Shouldn't that be applied to men's rights movements as well as feminists?

I don't follow. You seem to have bounced off way too far in the opposite direction this time, where now you're saying that we can't judge a political movement unless every member is guilty instead of if any member is guilty. Surely you agree that we can judge the KKK as bad. Surely you agree that we can judge the Civil Rights Movement as good. So clearly neither extreme is sensible as a way of figuring out how to judge movements.

 

[User 100115]

The seem to want to is a warning flag to me. That doesn't seem like it's a point of view backed by hard data of any sort.

Considering things like the majority of the sites mentioned in this thread, (The Red Pill, Return of Kings, etc) and the only notable campaign ever put on my a MRA group was to literally say that women lie about rape all the time, yeah, there is lots of data on the point. I just don't like painting everyone with the same brush, and therefore use 'most' and 'seem' in my language when speaking.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/12/dont-be-that-girl-mens-rights-edmonton_n_3587808.html

 

[APF]

If MRAs are fighting for "equality" how exactly do they define equality? What would make men and women "equal"?

IME it's by the same criteria that Libertarians define equality, eg as a Platonic ideal immediately implemented without any social change that would make adherence to the ideal actually translate to practical results.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Being a Stay at home dad, I can see where a VERY small % of the MRA people come from. When I tell people I am, I get odd looks, jokes about being a woman, things of that nature. When I take my 2 year old to the park, I get looked at like I'm some kinda creeper and generally just kinda have to keep to myself unless some other kid wonders into my sons zone and then I might get a short chat with a adult.

But that means you also see where feminists are coming from, too. There's a deep misunderstanding about modern feminism in thinking it's all about women when it's about everyone. Some MRAs think they're combating feminism on things like this when they're really agreeing.

 

[DarkFlow]

But that means you also see where feminists are coming from, too. There's a deep misunderstanding about modern feminism in thinking it's all about women when it's about everyone. Some MRAs think they're combating feminism on things like this when they're really agreeing.

Oh I would say I'm a feminist really. I was not trying to say I was into MRA or anything lol.

 

[Terrell]

In a somewhat unrelated note, men had a pretty awesome movement earlier this year, with #CockInASock, which was intended to spread awareness and drum up funding for Cancer Awareness UK. It was pretty successful in gaining visibility (in more ways than one, actually..). Too bad most of these MR's groups were too busy attacking feminists to take part in something positive that would actually benefit them without tearing the other side down.

Well, there was a lot of derision regarding that movement being a form of narcissistic slacktivism, as well, some of which I partially agree with. And I can't imagine insecure men like those on internet MRA forums being ready to shed those insecurities any time soon.

(link is NSFW, so I have quoted text below) http://osocio.org/message/cockinasock_is_the_latest_in_narcissistic_cancer_slacktivism_nsfw/

I’ll let Esquire Magazine explain:

No, it’s not the cleverly subversive marketing campaign for a new Red Hot Chili Peppers album, hell bent on providing women’s magazines with blog fodder and stuffing your Facebook (and Instagram, and Twitter) feed with enough meagerly filled stockings to ruin Christmas forever. #Cockinasock is actually a brilliantly fresh movement to raise awareness for testicular cancer, drummed up by non-profit Cancer Research UK, who’ve raised $13 million so far from last week’s #nomakeupselfie campaign and didn’t want men to feel left out.

Indeed. Why shouldn’t men sexualize a horrible affliction like cancer the way women do, each October? We, too, can “attention whore” on social media to raise awareness for something that people are already painfully aware of. Why bother getting into the nitty-gritty of prevention, fundraising, and empathy for sufferers when you can stuff your manhood in a sock and use a faddish excuse to sext the entire internet.

So whether it was "good" or not is wholly up for debate.

 

[MrAstronaut]

I can't wait until we have sex robots (lol). I feel like most of these mental problems would be avoided if everyone was just getting laid on the reg.

Amen brother

 

[Hamster Plugin]

Bravo.

I'd add some of the things Mumei makes threads about: advocacy for male rape victims and male victims of domestic violence (current MRA groups tend to instead focus on anti-advocacy for female victims for some goddamn reason), prison reform advocacy, specifically aiming at prison rape, and of course reform of our racist justice system.

Male victims of domestic violence are a forgotten group of sorts - both the patriarchal norms ("be a man and take it" bullshit) and feminists are against them. Whenever I see talk about domestic violence, many feminist groups are attempting to synonymize "domestic violence" and "violence against women". The biggest example of this would be the Violence Against Women Act. Naming a domestic violence law like that is just going to give the general public the impression that women are always the victim and men are never. The founder of the Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women appears to agree with me on this.

The MRAs' response could be driven by frustration. Anti-advocacy for female victims is definitely not the right thing to do, but trying to make "domestic violence" synonymous with "violence against women" can be seen as anti-advocacy for male victims. This triggers a response.

 

[APF]

Yeah, if a big concern is your partner is the breadwinner and you don't like people using "womanly"/etc as a pejorative, you might be a feminist.

EDIT: sorry, this popped into a new page and has less context, but was related to the conversation with DarkFlow

 

[Simon Belmont]

Why is this getting ignored so much? I'm a stay at home dad, and people treat me like I'm a alien.

I know this is of no help to you, but I feel like the attitude is changing. Most people tell me I'm lucky to be staying home. Haven't spent too much time on a playground though, so maybe I have no idea what I'm in for.

 

[Devolution]

Male victims of domestic violence are a forgotten group of sorts - both the patriarchal norms ("be a man and take it" bullshit) and feminists are against them. Whenever I see talk about domestic violence, many feminist groups are attempting to synonymize "domestic violence" and "violence against women". The biggest example of this would be the Violence Against Women Act. Naming a domestic violence law like that is just going to give the general public the impression that women are always the victim and men are never. The founder of the Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women appears to agree with me on this.

The MRAs' response could be driven by frustration. Anti-advocacy for female victims is definitely not the right thing to do, but trying to make "domestic violence" synonymous with "violence against women" can be seen as anti-advocacy for male victims. This triggers a response.

Their issues didn't stay with the title, they wanted immigrants, Native American women and LGBT individuals exempt from protections.

And by they I mean the National Coalition for Men.

 

[Dice//]

Being a Stay at home dad, I can see where a VERY small % of the MRA people come from. When I tell people I am, I get odd looks, jokes about being a woman, things of that nature. When I take my 2 year old to the park, I get looked at like I'm some kinda creeper and generally just kinda have to keep to myself unless some other kid wonders into my sons zone and then I might get a short chat with a adult.

I'm not trying to side with anything here, but more as a hopeful optimist.

I really hope ideas like 'stay at home dads' (or even the more naturalized idea of 'stay at home moms'), or that male nurse's are working a feminine job, or women working a masculine one, or anything similar are quelled by the next generation. Really it's just teaching people and MAKING it natural that gets rid of such silly attitudes towards honourable tasks and jobs.

I hate any idea that a gender should be slotted into something just based on the junk they were born with combatting against the dumb social norms in place.

 

[royalan]

Well, there was a lot of derision regarding that movement being a form of narcissistic slacktivism, as well, some of which I partially agree with. And I can't imagine insecure men like those on internet MRA forums being ready to shed those insecurities any time soon.

(link is NSFW, so I have quoted text below) http://osocio.org/message/cockinasock_is_the_latest_in_narcissistic_cancer_slacktivism_nsfw/



So whether it was "good" or not is wholly up for debate.

I mean, I agree as well (although I damn sure wasn't complaining...)

I merely brought it up as an idea of the types of smaller, "harmless" forms of activism MR's group could back and actually create some positive awareness without being "FUCK CHILD SUPPORT" or "GRRRR FEMINISM"

 

[BobbyRobby]

I think there should be support groups for men who have experienced domestic violence, stay at home dads, suicide prevention, etc.

I think everyone is better served by uniting on a cause by cause basis.

Seeing men and women so deeply entrenched in their own camps is depressing.

 

[User 100115]

Male victims of domestic violence are a forgotten group of sorts - both the patriarchal norms ("be a man and take it" bullshit) and feminists are against them. Whenever I see talk about domestic violence, many feminist groups are attempting to synonymize "domestic violence" and "violence against women". The biggest example of this would be the Violence Against Women Act. Naming a domestic violence law like that is just going to give the general public the impression that women are always the victim and men are never. The founder of the Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women appears to agree with me on this.

The MRAs' response could be driven by frustration. Anti-advocacy for female victims is definitely not the right thing to do, but trying to make "domestic violence" synonymous with "violence against women" can be seen as anti-advocacy for male victims. This triggers a response.

Well, to me, along with what Devo said, when a lot of the deaths and serious injuries occur with one gender regarding an issue, it's okay to call it a 'women's' issue or a 'men's issue'.

Domestic violence against men is a huge issue as well, mostly because of the 'gender role' that puts abused men in the 'wow what a pussy' category and writes them off as whiners, same as with male rape. Yes, a lot of the focus on domestic violence tends to be on women because it occurs more often with more deaths and severe injuries. Sorta like breast cancer being a woman's issue because it kills more women, but men can very much get breast cancer too and should be aware of that.

 

[Dice//]

I think there should be support groups for men who have experienced domestic violence, stay at home dads, suicide prevention, etc.

I think everyone is better served by uniting on a cause by cause basis.

Seeing men and women so deeply entrenched in their own camps is depressing.

1,000%

 

[Devolution]

Feminists are rarely entrenched. Many of the books about the troubles boys and men face to reach a hypermasculine ideal are written by them. Many of the solutions to those problems are proposed by them. Michael Kimmel for instance has many books and lectures about the subject.

 

[CLEEK]

I really only see "what about the menz" derision in response to people who come into discussions about some women's issue to ask that very question. Surely you've seen that a lot of the criticism of MRA types is that they don't seem to really care about these issues; they just use them as ammunition against feminism and to derail discussion of other issues that they'd rather not see discussed.

Your last sentence sums up my view of MRAs. While I'm sympathetic to many of the issues raised by MRAs, it always seems to me to be GENDER WARZ point scoring rather than them wanting to actually affect political change.

 

[benjipwns]

Their issues didn't stay with the title

I've always had issues with the title, why would you want to support Violence Against Women?!?

 

[Terrell]

I mean, I agree as well (although I damn sure wasn't complaining...)

I merely brought it up as an idea of the types of smaller, "harmless" forms of activism MR's group could back and actually create some positive awareness without being "FUCK CHILD SUPPORT" or "GRRRR FEMINISM"

Well, in a way, it kind of ties back to the discussion on the ugliness of gender norms.

The same company had 2 social media campaigns, one for women and one for men.

The female's campaign was posting selfies without makeup to show the world how pretty you are... oh, and raise money for cancer.

The men's campaign was posting pictures that allude to your verile man-parts and showing off those sick lats, brah... oh, and raise money for cancer.

I would consider bringing it up in this discussion to be far more on-topic than you thought it was. These campaigns are kind of sick in how they reinforce gender norms on both sides.

 

[DarkFlow]

I know this is of no help to you, but I feel like the attitude is changing. Most people tell me I'm lucky to be staying home. Haven't spent too much time on a playground though, so maybe I have no idea what I'm in for.

Some odd stares but it's not too bad. I mainly go crazy from my kid watching "Mickey Mouse Clubhouse Road Rally" twice a day, every day.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

Well, to me, along with what Devo said, when a lot of the deaths and serious injuries occur with one gender regarding an issue, it's okay to call it a 'women's' issue or a 'men's issue'.

Domestic violence against men is a huge issue as well, mostly because of the 'gender role' that puts abused men in the 'wow what a pussy' category and writes them off as whiners, same as with male rape. Yes, a lot of the focus on domestic violence tends to be on women because it occurs more often with more deaths and severe injuries. Sorta like breast cancer being a woman's issue because it kills more women, but men can very much get breast cancer too and should be aware of that.

The reason men aren't getting the help they need is because women are perceived as weak and needing protection, while men are the strong ones that can't ever be victims - the gender role that you are describing there. Making a law that actually states that domestic violence victims are women only is going to make this problem even worse.

 

[Rayis]

I've said it before and i'll say it again, men's right are important but the MRA movement in its current form does not do men's right any favor, their sole existence is based on hating feminism and women and shitting on anything feminine, they don't actually care about men in general, they only care about men who agree with them, they couldn't care less about males like me, I don't fit their ideal of what they think a man should be, and for that I will always oppose the MRA movement.

 

[LosDaddie]

When I take my 2 year old to the park, I get looked at like I'm some kinda creeper and generally just kinda have to keep to myself unless some other kid wonders into my sons zone and then I might get a short chat with a adult.

Eh, this is probably you being too sensitive. I've taken my daughter to parks all around Orlando (and there are lots of them here) for years now, and I don't recall ever having people look at me this way.

Even if they did, who gives a shit. I'm spending time with my kid. Fuck what they think.

Edit: damn phone keyboard :lol

 

[User 100115]

The reason men aren't getting the help they need is because women are perceived as weak and needing protection, while men are the strong ones that can't ever be victims - the gender role that you are describing there. Making a law that actually states that domestic violence victims are women only is going to make this problem even worse.

Has there been a law that says only women can be victims of domestic violence or is the only issue here that the bill was titled with a catchy title like most bills are?

 

[Azih]

I don't follow. You seem to have bounced off way too far in the opposite direction this time, where now you're saying that we can't judge a political movement unless every member is guilty instead of if any member is guilty. Surely you agree that we can judge the KKK as bad. Surely you agree that we can judge the Civil Rights Movement as good. So clearly neither extreme is sensible as a way of figuring out how to judge movements.

It just seems to me that people here are bashing MRAs because of some notable examples of extremist misogynist MRAs. I'm agreeing with you just applying the logic to MR groups as well as feminist groups.