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[Rich!]

NOTE: Even though everything I said in this post makes perfect sense, Nintendo are giving us 60hz DKC1, 50hz DKC2 and 60hz DKC3. Nothing they are doing makes any sense, therefore they must be throwing darts at a wall. It's infuriating and quite frankly, insane.

This thread will be a better fit as a place for general PAL 50/60hz Wii U VC discussion, complaining and hair pulling.

Original post:

I was going to wait until the release of DKC2 next week to post this, but I see no reason why we can't discuss it now. As a start, let's explain the core issue here without getting into specific technical details:

60hz - the original JP/USA releases that run fullscreen, full speed. All televisions in the EU support 60hz, and have done for over a decade.

50hz - the format that PAL/SECAM TV run in. Back in the 80s/90s, our televisions were unable to support 60hz and as such the games had to be altered. Whilst some where optimized, most were simply slowed down by 17% and given huge borders to accomodate the higher resolution of PAL. Basically, they got fucked up.

Now, let's recap on the situation we've had to deal with in Europe so far on the Wii U. When the VC first started, Nintendo released Balloon Fight for the NES. Us who bought it in the EU were horrified to find it was the slowed down, unresponsive, border filled mess that was the 50hz version. Considering the game has no text differences to speak of between regions, we rightly felt ripped off. Nintendo then fixed this situation - they released further NES games in their correct 60hz glory. They further went to release the USA 60hz versions of SNES games such as F-ZERO, Super Mario World and Kirby. Brilliant!

Unfortunately, they reverted back to giving us 50hz versions with Super Metroid and Zelda: Link to the Past. Their justification was essentially due to the translated versions being needed - which really, is bullshit considering Super Metroid only has about five pieces of text translated. Nintendo "altered" the games to get rid of the borders and run at a faster rate - however, the core issue still remained:

The Wii U cannot output in 50hz. What this results in is the Wii U having to repeat every fifth frame in 50hz titles. What this results in is not only a jerky framerate, but also a dead zone each second where controls are not registered at all. Quite simply, it's absolutely unnaceptable. For reference, the Xbone has exactly the same issue when trying to play UK 50hz TV through the passthrough, and has exactly the same "solution".

So, this brings us onto Donkey Kong Country which was released on the EU Virtual Console yesterday. Despite having considerably more text than Super Metroid (level names, dialogue with kongs, cranky's hints), Nintendo has given us the english-only USA 60hz version. Which is fantastic. But why this sudden change in heart? Is it due to the nature of the game (fast, precise platforming) being one that would suffer immensely due to the repeated frames? Or have Nintendo finally seen sense and are now giving us an equal experience to those in the USA and Japan? One thing to note is how with previous VC releases Nintendo made it very clear whether the game was the USA version or whether it was a modified PAL release. With DKC, they have made no reference to either at all.

The real test will be to see whether DKC2 next thursday is PAL or NTSC. If it's 60hz, then I think we have our answer. And lets bloody well hope it is NTSC.

Discuss.

 

[matrix-cat]

Crossing my fingers for 60Hz from here on out. It was crazy that they ever went for 50Hz on an HD console in the first place. My modern TV doesn't even support 50Hz (I get this awful screen tear every single time), and obviously the Gamepad and 3DS screens are 60Hz. There's no place for 50Hz in 2014.

What I'm really hoping for is that they go back and replace the current versions of Super Metroid and A Link to the Past with 60Hz ones.

 

[SmashN'Grab]

Does this issue affect GBA games on the Wii U? Also, if you play Super Metroid or LttP on the Gamepad screen and not your TV, are they still affected?

It's the inconsistency in Nintendo's approach that's most disappointing. Super Metroid has some platforming that needs precise inputs, but then again, I must've only ever played it at 50hz and I guess it didn't really affect my enjoyment. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

 

[Piccoro]

The Wii U cannot output in 50hz.

I think this fact alone guarantees that all VC games will be 60Hz from now on. They ignored the translations in DKC, so I think I'm right.

Now if only they released every Wii VC game on the U, that would be useful. Third party games too.

Spoiler

I'm looking at you, Sega...

SmashN'Grab, GBA games are all 60Hz.

 

[Rich!]

Does this issue affect GBA games on the Wii U? Also, if you play Super Metroid or LttP on the Gamepad screen and not your TV, are they still affected?

It's the inconsistency in Nintendo's approach that's most disappointing. Super Metroid has some platforming that needs precise inputs, but then again, I must've only ever played it at 50hz and I guess it didn't really affect my enjoyment. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

No to GBA - GBA was never 50hz to begin with, as handheld titles do not conform to TV standards. GBA is absolutely fine.

To your second point, Super Metroid and LTTP still play at 50hz (well, 60hz with frame repeating and altered sprite speeds) on the Gamepad, and they're still fucked up.

 

[tnaden]

I thought it was confirmed 60hz.

The only source I can really find on that is this though:
https://twitter.com/Jucksalbe/status/522738977183649792

EDIT: DERPED. Reading lessons inbound.

 

[Rich!]

I thought it was confirmed 60hz.

The only source I can really find on that is this though:
https://twitter.com/Jucksalbe/status/522738977183649792

uh, of course it's 60hz. I bought it yesterday. That's what the entire thread is about.

Easy way to confirm: the US DKC1 does not have a language select. The PAL version does. The version on the Wii U VC does not have a language select, and the splash screen states the USA release date.

 

[NewGame]

The actual answer to your question OP is "because miiverse".

 

[tnaden]

uh, of course it's 60hz. I bought it yesterday. That's what the entire thread is about.

Oh shit I completely missed this was about DKC2 D: My bad

 

[Gipsy Danger]

The human eye can't even see above 50Hz.

 

[pupcoffee]

I can't believe stuff like Super Metroid is still 50hz on the PAL store. C'mon Nintendo, don't make us wait til next time.

 

[Sendou]

Oh shit I completely missed this was about DKC2 D: My bad

Look at this CLOWN.

Spoiler

jk love you m8

 

[MicH]

I'm so sad that Super Metroid and ALttP are 50Hz versions. It's just so... Ugh. Thank god the DKC games are 60Hz. Thank god. I hope we're only getting 60Hz versions from now on

 

[frankie_baby]

Crossing my fingers for 60Hz from here on out. It was crazy that they ever went for 50Hz on an HD console in the first place. My modern TV doesn't even support 50Hz (I get this awful screen tear every single time), and obviously the Gamepad and 3DS screens are 60Hz. There's no place for 50Hz in 2014.

What I'm really hoping for is that they go back and replace the current versions of Super Metroid and A Link to the Past with 60Hz ones.

Seperate from the issue at hand but why the hell would anyone in a PAL region buy a tv that doesn't support 50hz? TV broadcasts are all still 50hz (and will likely remain that way for decades) you made a really bad choice of telly

 

[Santar]

A bit weird that they did this considering that the original PAL releases were actually correctly optimized on the snes and ran just like the NTSC versions according to wikipedia.

 

[Hasney]

Don't they just make a judgement call on the amount of text in the game? It's either that or it's just random, that's been my takeaway about what comes out in 60Hz or not.

A bit weird that they did this considering that the original PAL releases were actually correctly optimized on the snes and ran just like the NTSC versions according to wikipedia.

True, but they still wouldn't output correctly on the Wii U as that would be outputting 60Hz, meaning you get frame repeate of the 50Hz source,

 

[Rich!]

Don't they just make a judgement call on the amount of text in the game? It's either that or it's just random, that's been my takeaway about what comes out in 60Hz or not.

That's my entire argument here.

DKC1 has a lot of text. More than Super Metroid which only had the intro cinematic and the ending cinematic translated. They gave us 60hz DKC and 50hz Super Metroid. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Myriadis]

Huh, I didn't even notice any frame stuttering on my playthrough of super metroid, and it always responded to button commands.

 

[Hasney]

That's my entire argument here.

DKC1 has a lot of text. More than Super Metroid which only had the intro cinematic and the ending cinematic translated. They gave us 60hz DKC and 50hz Super Metroid. It doesn't make sense.

It's not integral in DKC though. Super Metroid and Zelda both need to be read to progress sometimes, DKC is just story fluff that doesn't make any difference to progression.

That's the only rhyme or reason I could even possibly begin to place on it if another game comes out at 50Hz in the future.

 

[bobohoro]

Hopefully they will continue with this. Would also be nice if they could include more precise descriptions on the store, a simple NTSC/PAL-line or some Hz-meassure in the technical details section would be enough. Since naively buying PS1-classics thinking there is no way anyone would put an inferior version on sale, I am kinda wary of ambigious store descriptions on classics.

 

[Sendou]

That's my entire argument here.

DKC1 has a lot of text. More than Super Metroid which only had the intro cinematic and the ending cinematic translated. They gave us 60hz DKC and 50hz Super Metroid. It doesn't make sense.

Welcome to Nintendo mate. Nothing ever makes sense. I mean you have a solid case there in the OP. It might very well turn out like you say. It's just that we have this unknown variable called Nintendo.

 

[Chao]

The human eye can't even see above 50Hz.

Is this a meme I don't recognize?

 

[Rich!]

It's not integral in DKC though. Super Metroid and Zelda both need to be read to progress sometimes, DKC is just story fluff that doesn't make any difference to progression.

No. You're incorrect.

Super Metroid has NOTHING translated other than the intro cinematic (SAMUS BLAH BLAH BLAH) and the ending (YOU FINISHED IN 2 HOURS).

ALL of the area names, weapon names, in-game messages are still in full unaltered english, even if playing in german. There is literally no reason why it couldn't have been the 60hz version. None.

 

[pupcoffee]

I'll laugh if we get 50hz DKC2 so everyone can play Swanky Kong's game show.

 

[Peltz]

Ugh... what a fucking mess. I feel for my EU brothers across the Atlantic.

I love Nintendo more than any other company, but they should really give EU the ability to choose which rom they'd like to purchase: 50 or 60hz. It'd be the best solution.

 

[frankie_baby]

I think this fact alone guarantees that all VC games will be 60Hz from now on. They ignored the translations in DKC, so I think I'm right.

Now if only they released every Wii VC game on the U, that would be useful. Third party games too.

Spoiler

I'm looking at you, Sega...

SmashN'Grab, GBA games are all 60Hz.

I'm not so sure, their might be quite a bit of text in dkc but it's not really that important, a more story heavy game I could see still being 50hz, but then again it seems they only released the English version of golden sun when translations were available, we'll just have to wait and see

 

[Android18a]

Ah, being a gamer in the 90s was great! I love how our games were all slow and with massive borders! So cool! Oh wait... yeah, this'll be a good thing if it's all NTSC versions from here on.

I downloaded FFVII on PS3 from the US store rather than the PAL store to get around the Mega Huge Borders issue.

 

[TheMoon]

I'd like to chime in with my usual song and dance: Super Metroid and ALttP are perfectly playable in their PAL-optimized versions, btw. While I obviously would prefer the NTSC versions but I have absolutely zero gripes with their performance is playability.

Does this issue affect GBA games on the Wii U?

PAL / NTSC is a TV standard. This was never an issue with handhelds since they ...don't use televisions.

I think this fact alone guarantees that all VC games will be 60Hz from now on. They ignored the translations in DKC, so I think I'm right.

Except it's completely irrelevant. As evidenced by the fact that we've gotten 50Hz games every now and then.

 

[Hasney]

No. You're incorrect.

Super Metroid has NOTHING translated other than the intro cinematic (SAMUS BLAH BLAH BLAH) and the ending (YOU FINISHED IN 2 HOURS).

ALL of the area names, weapon names, in-game messages are still in full unaltered english, even if playing in german. There is literally no reason why it couldn't have been the 60hz version. None.

Pahahaha, alright then, that's just stupid.

If another 50Hz game comes out on VC in the future, then it's all just random then. If not, then we got through to them.

 

[Robin64]

I downloaded FFVII on PS3 from the US store rather than the PAL store to get around the Mega Huge Borders issue.

I accidentally got FFIX from the PAL store.

 

[jimi_dini]

I think this fact alone guarantees that all VC games will be 60Hz from now on. They ignored the translations in DKC, so I think I'm right.

This isn't a fact, it's guess-work.

A poster wrote in the DKC thread, that maybe the gamepad currently has no option to support 50Hz video, which would make sense. The Wii U itself is surely able to output 50 Hz video over HDMI. HDMI definitely supports it. The gamepad should be able to support it too, maybe Nintendo just didn't bother (yet?) because only PAL VC releases would need it.

It would be great if Nintendo fixed that, but it would still be nice to get 60 Hz VC games (unless the game is text heavy like LTTP and got translated into various languages in Europe).

Which is fantastic. But why this sudden change in heart?

I'm pretty sure that DKC1 wasn't the first 60Hz game released on Wii U.

 

[garyBig]

Now please get Sony to do the same. If I buy the NTSC versions from the US store, I can't play them on my EU-account Vita. So just let me give you my fucking money for that on the EU-store goddamnit.

 

[Griss]

One of the major reasons why I (an Irishman in Ireland) imported my Gamecube and N64 from the US and my Wii U from Canada. I can't be dealing with this shit.

Delays and prices are the other two major reasons. It just sucks that my 3DS (which is PAL) is not on the same account, but oh well.

 

[Rich!]

It would be great if Nintendo fixed that, but it would still be nice to get 60 Hz VC games (unless the game is text heavy like LTTP and got translated into various languages in Europe).

So what about us in the UK and Australia? We speak english, yet we still have to put up with shitty versions because of the rest of our PAL region? I don't give a shit about french or spanish versions.

No. That is not the solution. The solution is to offer us the choice between multi-language or USA 60hz upon purchase.

 

[SerTapTap]

Had no idea Nintendo had ever released 60 Hz games in EU when PAL versions exist, glad to hear they've (mostly) reverted the 50Hz thing.

 

[TheMoon]

Huh, I didn't even notice any frame stuttering on my playthrough of super metroid, and it always responded to button commands.

That's what I keep saying. This isn't defending 50Hz, btw. Just pointing out that even with the doubled frame problem technically being there and a potential issue, it rarely even registers for people who are not specifically made aware of it.

All we want is a another sub-screen on the eShop where we can just simply CHOOSE which version we want, though. lol

Sometimes you might want both. In the case of Contra III, I bought the PAL Wii VC version, Super Probotector because of superior robots and it feels less hectic. Then I upgraded to the Wii U VC version which was the US one to have the option to play both. That's how it should be by default.

 

[TheDrowningMan]

No. That is not the solution. The solution is to offer us the choice between multi-language or USA 60hz upon purchase.

Yep.

 

[jimi_dini]

So what about us in the UK and Australia? We speak english, yet we still have to put up with shitty versions because of the rest of our PAL region? I don't give a shit about french or spanish versions.

No. That is not the solution. The solution is to offer us the choice between multi-language or USA 60hz upon purchase.

At least on Wii some games were actually multi-language internally. As in - it included multiple ROMs and chose the right one based on the language setting. Which simply only works when you use compatible ROMs. In that case you can't mix NTSC+PAL, otherwise the save data isn't compatible anymore.

All we want is a another sub-screen on the eShop where we can just simply CHOOSE which version we want, though. lol

Yes, between PAL + NTSC. That would make sense and it also wouldn't fuck up all sorts of countries in Europe. Sure, I'm happy that it's the 60Hz DKC release, but all the level names + dialog is English only now, which sucks.

 

[Rich!]

I'm pretty sure that DKC1 wasn't the first 60Hz game released on Wii U.

Sigh. Of course not. That's not what this thread is about.

I've explained it all in the OP, I'm not going to go through explaining it again.

At least on Wii some games were actually multi-language internally. As in - it included multiple ROMs and chose the right one based on the language setting. Which simply only works when you use compatible ROMs. In that case you can't mix NTSC+PAL, otherwise the save data isn't compatible anymore.

Of course the save data isn't compatible. Why would that be an issue? You choose what version you want upon purchase, and that is that. Done. Bam. Fucking sorted. It really does not need to be any more complicated than that.

 

[Kurtofan]

DKC 3 and 2 relies more heavily on text, hopefully this doesn't fuck things up.

 

[TheMoon]

Sigh. Of course not. That's not what this thread is about.

I've explained it all in the OP, I'm not going to go through explaining it again.

Dude, nobody reads OPs.

Go ask LonelyGreyWolf, he know dat feel bro.

 

[jimi_dini]

Of course the save data isn't compatible. Why would that be an issue? You choose what version you want upon purchase, and that is that. Done. Bam. Fucking sorted. It really does not need to be any more complicated than that.

I already told you - I'm pretty sure that Wii had a few VC titles, that switched between ROMs. Which is a nice feature. English -> French -> German -> English was possible.

Having English as NTSC and everything else as PAL fucks over that feature. English one would have a separate game state than all the other versions.

Which means it would be even nicer to have an option to switch between PAL + NTSC and still get multi-language on PAL. For Nintendo games that would be easy from a licensing perspective (let's not think about emulator changes). For Non-Nintendo games such a feature would be quite a pain in the ass from a licensing perspective.

Sigh. Of course not. That's not what this thread is about.

I was calling you out based on what you wrote in the OP.

There wasn't a "sudden change of heart" now. They already released quite a few 60 Hz VC titles. That "sudden change of heart" happened ages ago. Reading the OP one could think that Nintendo released 50 Hz up until DKC, which simply isn't the case.

What isn't sure is who Nintendo fucks over in text heavy games. Most UK/Australian people (sort of) or everyone else.

I still know quite a few level names from DKC2. But I didn't play that game in English. Which means your best version actually means that I will lose out of the translation. Which sucks at least a bit.

Dude, nobody reads OPs.

Yeah, I just quoted parts of the OP, so I surely didn't read them smfh

 

[TheMoon]

I was calling you out based on what you wrote in the OP.

There wasn't a "sudden change of heart" now. They already released quite a few 60 Hz VC titles. That "sudden change of heart" happened ages ago. Reading the OP one could think that Nintendo released 50 Hz up until DKC, which simply isn't the case.

The "change of heart" bit is about the fact that they've ignored the language situation with this time. Previously there was a hard rule: If {translation=yes}-> 50Hz PAL version gets put on Wii U VC and If {translation=no} then they'd put out the NTSC 60Hz version. Third parties were a little looser with that, as evidenced by Konami putting out Contra games as Contra games for the first time in Europe instead of releasing the Probotector versions.

Since the DKC trilogy was fully localized in German, French and maybe Spanish(?), one would have naturally assumed that the PAL 50Hz version was inbound. But then it wasn't!

 

[Joqu]

Letting us switch the roms is really the way to go with this issue. It was baffling with Super Metroid but one could argue a 50hz release of DKC would've actually been justified for our foreign friends.

I mean right now you'd have to pay twice for A Link to the Past if you wanted to play the other languages, that's just stupid.

Of course this could cause discrepancies re: censorship (which could affect the age rating) and licencing issues, but in those cases it seems fair to me to lock the affected versions behind a paywall. And I suppose saves wouldn't be compatible between versions either? Not sure how these things work on emulators but that doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

But I think the biggest issue here is that implementing such a feature would require effort while it doesn't affect the other regions at all. They probably don't consider it worth the effort, especially with the Wii U's sales and all that. Shame, because I think it would set a nice standard for the future.

 

[Semajer]

DKC is 60hz? Good, if all three are 60hz I'll buy them all.

NoE need to offer the choice between the PAL and NTSC version on the eShop. It would solve so many problems. If it were up to me, and I wish to god that Nintendo would hire me so that it was, I would fix this issue by updating the Virtual Console service so that there is one version of the game with all the content of the different releases of the games condensed into one.

The games would all be 60hz. You could choose what language you want, which would include Japanese as well as PAL-5, and games with more than one localisation in a single language could be chosen between (like Advance Wars: Days of Ruin/Dark Conflict). Region specific glitches would be eliminated, so people in Europe could finally get that last bomb bag upgrade in Zelda Minish Cap. Ideally this upgrade would be used to include localisations for games that didn't receive them the first time around. It would also be used to include censored and cut content, so Europeans can finally see the epilogue of Fire Emblem.

 

[Dizzy]

uh, of course it's 60hz. I bought it yesterday. That's what the entire thread is about.

Easy way to confirm: the US DKC1 does not have a language select. The PAL version does. The version on the Wii U VC does not have a language select, and the splash screen states the USA release date.

So thats why it had the US release date! I thought that was weird.

 

[AndyMoogle]

I really want to think that Nintendo will give us 60Hz versions for everything going forward. But I don't trust Nintendo to get this right. It wouldn't surprise me if there are some licensing issues with these games (why else would they pull them from the Wii VC?) and Nintendo didn't want to pay extra to get the 50 Hz version as well or something like that.

I'd love to be wrong. Please prove me wrong, Nintendo.

 

[Mohonky]

Is this a meme I don't recognize?

Maybe, it is a 70hz meme so you probly cant see it.

 

[Neff]

I'd like to chime in with my usual song and dance: Super Metroid and ALttP are perfectly playable in their PAL-optimized versions, btw. While I obviously would prefer the NTSC versions but I have absolutely zero gripes with their performance is playability.

LttP's optimisation isn't entirely awful from a gameplay perspective (even if it looks crap), but Super Metroid suffers quite a bit imo. You can't blast out missiles as fast as you can in the NTSC version due to the frame issue, and you have a higher chance of missing a wall jump for the same reason. And then there's the Wrecked Ship music bug, which is simply indefensible when everyone outside of 'PAL land' is getting it how it should be.

I really want to think that Nintendo will give us 60Hz versions for everything going forward.

While I'm ecstatic to get US DKC, the only setback with this stealth NTSC release approach is that we won't know if we're getting the US/PAL versions unless we buy it ourselves or wait for some poor sucker to risk taking one for the team.

 

[TheMoon]

LttP's optimisation isn't entirely awful from a gameplay perspective (even if it looks crap), but Super Metroid suffers quite a bit imo.

"looks crap"?

Nothing about it looks crap. I'll show you a screenshot and you won't be able to tell you which version it is (except from the part where I have the German version which has German UI text).