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[Ties]

That's true but applying more racism certainly isn't the right thing to do.

i don't think its racist because the purpose of the article isn't to abrasively insult and marginalize white people, but rather, to elucidate the problematic perceptions that can arise from the majority populace's insouciance about racial relations

 

[BocoDragon]

To be fair, white people have to walk on egg shells over this issue.

You have to be damned articulate to not stick your foot in your mouth over this issue. Even someone well versed in academic racial theory might accidentally say something dumb.

 

[Infinite]

Once again people in this threads instead of having a dialogue rather police the way the dialogue is had. I'm out.

 

[doomdazzle]

i don't think its racist because the purpose of the article isn't to abrasively insult and marginalize white people, but rather, to elucidate the problematic perceptions that can arise from the majority populace's insouciance about racial relations

But I, as a white person feel insulted and marginalized when I see an article that lumps me in with ignorant people just because of the color of my skin.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

That's true but applying more racism certainly isn't the right thing to do.

Responses like this kinda blow me away.

Like, "There's something to be said here, but I'm gonna be dismissive about it because of the way the article is worded. The article is using more racism talk about racism!" Even if that wasn't your intent specifically, I've seen it here and in other threads where something like this might not have been articulated in the best possible way.

It's just like when people keep talking about how "check your privilege" isn't the right way to have a discussion about privilege... Yeah, probably not. But instead of being so huffy and indignant about the fact that something important is being brought to your attention in what's probably not the best possible way, why not just take it for what it is and deal with the actual problem? If more people were willing to listen, the term probably wouldn't exist. Instead, now we're dealing with a subset of people who are so infuriated by the fact that they're being challenged in a way that's offensive to them, the miss the point and it becomes an entirely different issue.

Bah.

 

[doomdazzle]

Responses like this kinda blow me away.

Like, "There's something to be said here, but I'm gonna be dismissive about it because of the way the article is worded. The article is using more racism talk about racism!" Even if that wasn't your intent specifically, I've seen it here and in other threads where something like this might not have been articulated in the best possible way.

It's just like when people keep talking about how "check your privilege" isn't the right way to have a discussion about privilege... Yeah, probably not. But instead of being so huffy and indignant about the fact that something important is being brought to your attention in what's probably not the best possible way, why not just take it for what it is and deal with the actual problem? If more people were willing to listen, the term probably wouldn't exist. Instead, now we're dealing with a subset of people who are so infuriated by the fact that they're being challenged in a way that's offensive to them, the miss the point and it becomes an entirely different issue.

Bah.

You get more honey with flies or something like that. When you open with something that is insulting to the people you are trying to educate what exactly are you expecting to happen?

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't really disagree with what you wrote. But I don't think anything you wrote shows positive merits of the phrase "check your privilege."

Check your privilege is a flippant phrase that gets misused on the internet, so its in good company with 99% of the english language. But the idea of privilege, and specifically the idea of pointing out privilege with regards to comparative circumstances, still has value. I mean, if you have a conversation that goes like this:

"Man why don't all those poor people just go to college and get business degrees? It worked out well for me"

"Because they didn't necessarily have access to your prior education, or the attention your parents provided you, or had to deal with the very real biases in education and the workforce"

....you're still completely discussing privilege even if the specific word doesn't come up

 

[Crumpet Trumpet]

privilege is when the most ~racist thing that will probably happen to you is a blog critiquing your lack of understanding how privilege works

 

[Jado]

Good post, Pogi.

No, it's optimistic nonsense that doesn't pan out in reality. I've seen numerous examples in which people do exactly what pogi recommends: "A much better way to remind people to be empathetic to the plights of others is to tell them about the plights of others." And in my experience it leads to just as many dismissive responses as simply saying "check your privilege" -- which stumpokapow mentioned doesn't arise in a vacuum but rather as a result of being fed up from impassioned arguments that fall on deaf ears. I think it's very fair to say that the people who get so worked up by the word "privilege" really have no interest in the concerns of minorities or only a passing, superficial concern. It's all a time-wasting exercise meant to distract from actually addressing anything that concerns the less well-off and instead nitpick the shit out of words.

"Check your privilege" is a dangerous phrase since almost everyone has privileges and the moment you tell someone to check his/her privilege you'll have to check yours first because hypocrisy does not gather any sympathy.

"Dangerous."

ITT: "Offended" concern trolls demand that discussions about race revolve around them and what only they deem acceptable language. Do we really have to carefully word every little piece of language and tiptoe around the fake-sensitive, fake-concerned before they even entertain the thought that a person different from them is bothered by something?

 

[Chie Satonaka]

You get more honey with flies or something like that. When you open with something that is insulting to the people you are trying to educate what exactly are you expecting to happen?

This has already been addressed.

You don't get a pass on dealing with a sensitive issue just because it's brought to your attention in a way that you don't like. Or rather, you don't if it's a sensitive issue that you're actually willing to discuss in the first place.

If your open mind to dealing with racial issues ends just because someone said something as non threatening as "check your privilege" (just because it might be flippant doesn't make it any less valid), then I would argue that you're not really very open minded.

 

[Wazzy]

Morgan Freeman also said the same thing, sans the rapping part.

Is there a point to this? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Morgan Freeman's comments were stupid. The girl I know that made the comments is even worse.

That list is racist. Singling out white people is racist.

Fuse, please tell me you're joking.

 

[danwarb]

I'd just say that all people have their own unique life experience. None are representative of a whole race or the average. It best not to exclude from the conversation, or assume the worst possible motivation for someone because of their race alone. That's needless tribalism in a discussion that doesn't need it.

 

[PlayDat]

Well...

1) What is Iggy Azalea doing wrong, again?

2) Eh. I use the dictionary definition of racism but split it into casual and institutionalized. I don't think that I somehow can't be racist.

3) I feel the "educate yourself" thing, and you really shouldn't expect some random person to have all the answers, but it reminds me of religious people telling me that there's proof of God if I look for it. How about I *don't* waste insane amounts of my time on the claim you brought?

There are totally people out there willing to do that, though. But many people that aren't as well.

I'm not sure I understand this either.

Iggy is a big star. she's also a white rapper. Why not use her as a lightning rod for your articles?

Here's what's wrong with Iggy Azelia:

She's racist, homophobic, and like many white people who've adopted elements of black culture before her, she's receiving praise for her mediocre performance at things black people are better at.

 

[Ties]

While I get the jist of the article, the author is an idiot. Reading his other articles he even claims that "Macklemore arguably uses and abuses the white privilege".

you only need to take a look around planty of threads here claiming that "macklemore is the only rapper nowadays that has something to say" despite the myriad of critically acclaimed releases from other MCs like Kendrick, Schoolboy Q, etc. to recognize that his privilege is definitely a factor in his success

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

This short PDF study on "White Fragility" is important reading for some of you:

http://libjournal.uncg.edu/index.php/ijcp/article/view/249

White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium. This paper explicates the dynamics of White Fragility.

When white people overreact to a simple post describing how history has been whitewashed? White Fragility. When white people overreact to a post that names white folk as oppressors of non-white people? White Fragility. When a simple conversation about race and racism suddenly gets diverted to being about a white person’s feeeeeelings? White Fragility.

It is, in essence, the lack of a psychological stamina to deal with talking about race and racism. Here is an academic study. It lists down and gives clear examples of manifestations of this terrible stamina wrt race conversations. There is a PDF and it is free to download.

 

[soul creator]

this comes to mind: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll

"I will spend most of my time and discussion worrying more about the specific phrase you used, and being offended by it, rather than all the other substantive arguments you bring up"

Coincidentally, this tactic is often used by members of a priv...er, domina...er, majori...um, "traditionally enhanced" social class (rich, straight, white, Christian, male, etc.). Sometimes concern trolling is by someone who actually does feel genuinely concerned ("That hurts, why can't we all just get along!"), and sometimes it is just to troll, but either way, the effect is the same: discussion of actual, historical and substantive harm is sidelined, in favor of long discussions over the "rules" of "proper" debating.

 

[doomdazzle]

This has already been addressed.

You don't get a pass on dealing with a sensitive issue just because it's brought to your attention in a way that you don't like. Or rather, you don't if it's a sensitive issue that you're actually willing to discuss in the first place.

If your open mind to dealing with racial issues ends just because someone said something as non threatening as "check your privilege" (just because it might be flippant doesn't make it any less valid), then I would argue that you're not really very open minded.

My issue is with the article calling me out because of my skin color saying I do things that I actually dont. Do a lot of white people act ignorant? Of course! But not all and to say otherwise is just racist. Its like saying "all [insert race] do x" its just plain racist and doesn't do any good.

You can't fight racism with racism just like you cant create child porn to prove someone else created child porn.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

My issue is with the article calling me out because of my skin color saying I do things that I actually dont. Do a lot of white people act ignorant? Of course! But not all and to say otherwise is just racist. Its like saying "all [insert race] do x" its just plain racist and doesn't do any good.

You can't fight racism with racism just like you cant create child porn to prove someone else created child porn.

So, "not all white people" then?

Regardless, when did the article imply all white people, including you?

 

[Vermillion]

Here's what's wrong with Iggy Azelia:

She's racist, homophobic, and like many white people who've adopted elements of black culture before her, she's receiving praise for her mediocre performance at things black people are better at.

Iiiinntteresting. Did not know about that Twitter stuff.

It's, to be quite candid, nothing new... But that doesn't make it excusable either.

 

[Slayven]

this comes to mind: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll

"I will spend most of my time and discussion worrying more about the specific phrase you used, and being offended by it, rather than all the other substantive arguments you bring up"

Coincidentally, this tactic is often used by members of a priv...er, domina...er, majori...um, "traditionally enhanced" social class (rich, straight, white, Christian, male, etc.). Sometimes concern trolling is by someone who actually does feel genuinely concerned ("That hurts, why can't we all just get along!"), and sometimes it is just to troll, but either way, the effect is the same: discussion of actual, historical and substantive harm is sidelined, in favor of long discussions over the "rules" of "proper" debating.

I knew there had to be a phrase for people that dismiss and argument over the phrasing.

 

[Anton Sugar]

My issue is with the article calling me out because of my skin color saying I do things that I actually dont. Do a lot of white people act ignorant? Of course! But not all and to say otherwise is just racist. Its like saying "all [insert race] do x" its just plain racist and doesn't do any good.

You can't fight racism with racism just like you cant create child porn to prove someone else created child porn.

Are you familiar at all with #NotAllMen? It's been all over the internet for the past few weeks and there is a myriad of articles explaining why it's a joke.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

My issue is with the article calling me out because of my skin color saying I do things that I actually dont. Do a lot of white people act ignorant? Of course! But not all and to say otherwise is just racist. Its like saying "all [insert race] do x" its just plain racist and doesn't do any good.

You can't fight racism with racism just like you cant create child porn to prove someone else created child porn.

...

Would you rather the author call people out by name? This is a systematic thing. If you're not guilty of these things, there's no reason for you to be defensive of what the article is talking about.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, and what people before this post, on this very page are discussing. You're so hung up on how this article and the arguments are presented that you're dismissing the validity of the points it's trying to make. That's a huge problem.

 

[Jado]

this comes to mind: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll

"I will spend most of my time and discussion worrying more about the specific phrase you used, and being offended by it, rather than all the other substantive arguments you bring up"

Coincidentally, this tactic is often used by members of a priv...er, domina...er, majori...um, "traditionally enhanced" social class (rich, straight, white, Christian, male, etc.). Sometimes concern trolling is by someone who actually does feel genuinely concerned ("That hurts, why can't we all just get along!"), and sometimes it is just to troll, but either way, the effect is the same: discussion of actual, historical and substantive harm is sidelined, in favor of long discussions over the "rules" of "proper" debating.

This short PDF study on "White Fragility" is important reading for some of you:

http://libjournal.uncg.edu/index.php/ijcp/article/view/249

These two posts right here are on point.

 

[doomdazzle]

...

Would you rather the author call people out by name? This is a systematic thing. If you're not guilty of these things, there's no reason for you to be defensive of what the article is talking about.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, and what people before this post, on this very page are discussing. You're so hung up on how this article and the arguments are presented that you're dismissing the validity of the points it's trying to make. That's a huge problem.

Maybe the author should use racist click bait titles? I feel like you're victim blaming here.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Maybe the author should use racist click bait titles? I feel like you're victim blaming here.

HAHAHAHAHA

(It looks like you didn't pick up on the greater point that mostly white people do these sorts of things because of their likely more socially sheltered lives saving them from the deeper details that people of color have to think about everyday, resulting in white people saying really backwards and embarrassingly racist things when they have the discussion turned on their bullshit.)

 

[doomdazzle]

HAHAHAHAHA

That may have been a bit trollish but I'm bored at work lol

 

[Chie Satonaka]

Maybe the author should use racist click bait titles? I feel like you're victim blaming here.

Fuck it, I'm done.

Jesus tapdancing Christ.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Complain about clickbait titles with troll posts, brehs.

 

[doomdazzle]

HAHAHAHAHA

(It looks like you didn't pick up on the greater point that mostly white people do these sorts of things because of their likely more socially sheltered lives saving them from the deeper details that people of color have to think about everyday, resulting in white people saying really backwards and embarrassingly racist things when they have the discussion turned on their bullshit.)

A lot of people do ignorant things but to label an entire race for it isn't right. That's my point.

 

[Thorakai]

You know whats funny? The term "check your privilege" isn't even used in the article. The first serious usage of the term in this thread is here:

That isn't what someone means when they ask you to check your privilege, it means you are literally speaking from a point of privilege so it might serve you to step outside yourself a little and to think about what you're doing or saying.

...which was simply used as a way of summarizing point #7 of the article. Somehow the debate around "check your privilege" appears focused on the statement itself when it wasn't even invoked in that form by the article or a poster. I'm not entirely sure why the statement itself suddenly received so much attention. The article gives a detailed explanation for what being privileged means. Not everyone here is focusing on just the statement...but quite a few seem to paint the issue around the phrasing when it wasn't even an issue here in the first place.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M

Here's a good video of a stand-up comedian telling a joke about reverse racism that's important for some of you to watch.

 

[cdyhybrid]

A lot of people do ignorant things but to label an entire race for it isn't right. That's my point.

#NotAllWhitePeople

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

A lot of people do ignorant things but to label an entire race for it isn't right. That's my point.

Who is labeling an entire race?

 

[besada]

Maybe the author should use racist click bait titles? I feel like you're victim blaming here.

I feel like I just banned you here.

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

Don't worry white people, I only do this to the bad ones. I don't have a problem with with hard working everyday white people like Bill Clinton or Tom Cruise. They're cool. It's just the bad ones.

Heck, some of my best friends are white! And I love putting mayo on my sandwiches!

 

[Jado]

Maybe the author should use racist click bait titles? I feel like you're victim blaming here.

 

[hateradio]

This short PDF study on "White Fragility" is important reading for some of you:

http://libjournal.uncg.edu/index.php...ticle/view/249

I got it! We should have Sesame Street characters act out an institutionalized racism plot targeted at adults. That will appease to their fragile minds.

Seriously though, this kind of behavior is intolerable to me. I deal with similar situations with people who cannot deal with any kind of confrontation, even when that confrontation is nothing but a simple question. It's like you can't get anywhere with them.

 

[jerry1594]

White Bro-in-law said Zimmerman case isn't about racism because Zimmerman is Hispanic, I wanted to punch him so much in the face, but I'm too much of a pacifist.

Pacifist huh

 

[Gleethor]

Don't worry white people, I only do this to the bad ones. I don't have a problem with with hard working everyday white people like Bill Clinton or Tom Cruise. They're cool. It's just the bad ones.

Heck, some of my best friends are white! And I love putting mayo on my sandwiches!

who the fuck doesn't love mayo on a sandwich? This is as dumb as "black people love fried chicken". EVERYONE loves fried chicken.

 

[Fusebox]

Fuse, please tell me you're joking.

I'm joking.

 

[Anton Sugar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M

Here's a good video of a stand-up comedian telling a joke about reverse racism that's important for some of you to watch.

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

who the fuck doesn't love mayo on a sandwich? This is as dumb as "black people love fried chicken". EVERYONE loves fried chicken.

I was just throwing in the mayo thing to be diplomatic, I find it disgusting. Sorry white people.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

who the fuck doesn't love mayo on a sandwich? This is as dumb as "black people love fried chicken". EVERYONE loves fried chicken.

Mayo makes me want to chuke.

The smell, the taste, it's completely unacceptable to me. If you start having a conversation to me about the merits of a sandwich and you even use the phrase mayonaise, I'm going to be so hurt and revolted by it that I'm going to be unable to discuss sandwiches with you ever again.

 

[plasmawave]

Do you even race, bro?

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

I have no white guilt and I just avoid most conversations...

 

[Deified Data]

This attitude kind of annoys me, too. No reason to be an apologist. Let people judge you by how you treat others. There are stupid, evil people of all races. Beating yourself up over what some members of your race do is just as dumb. It's a broad generalization, and generalizations are all too common when talking about racism.

I need to stop with the sarcasm since it's obviously not my forte.

No, it's optimistic nonsense that doesn't pan out in reality. I've seen numerous examples in which people do exactly what pogi recommends: "A much better way to remind people to be empathetic to the plights of others is to tell them about the plights of others." And in my experience it leads to just as many dismissive responses as simply saying "check your privilege"

So in essence you're saying they both lead to just as many dismissive responses. Not even in essence, that's what you literally said. So why not try the less accusatory, less presumptuous option, if only in the interest of civil discourse? What's your track record on guiding people towards empathy using the "check your privilege" line?

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

In all seriousness though, anytime a discussion about racism happens on the internet someone will make a ridiculous comparison between things that minorities face and things that white people face as a parallel.

Like I've had:

- A white feminist once compared the trials and tribulations of black people in the 60's to being a pale skinned red haired woman in the present day (to be fair, it was 2006, so maybe things have changed since then).

- Another white woman - self proclaimed radical feminist, once attempted to convince my Indian friend, that being a white woman in the present day (2005, so maybe things have changed) was objectively worse than being a member of the lowest caste in India.

- I once overheard a guy in line at a Starcraft 2 launch event claim that it was better to be a black man in 2010 - or whenever that game came out, than being a white guy who liked nerdy things like fantasy novels and video games.

- I have read and heard just endless amounts of bitching from white people when it comes to being just barely inconvenienced when it comes to depictions of them (or lack thereof) in the media. There was a pretty big one a while back when a TV station leaked a casting call for a talk show position that specifically asked for a male ethnic minority. And everyone just lost their minds. Because there is a severe dearth of white men being given positions on talk shows in North America. The talk show by the way was a show focusing on multicultural issues set in Toronto - probably one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world.

 

[Freezasaurus]

I need to stop with the sarcasm since it's obviously not my forte.

It's also hard to discern sometimes over the internet.

 

[JBourne]

you only need to take a look around planty of threads here claiming that "macklemore is the only rapper nowadays that has something to say" despite the myriad of critically acclaimed releases from other MCs like Kendrick, Schoolboy Q, etc. to recognize that his privilege is definitely a factor in his success

I think they're just making fun of CliffyB.

 

[Wazzy]

I'm joking.

I'm terrible at reading sarcasm but cool.

Spoiler

You didn't bring up VIII and now I'm shocked