Tommen and Mrycella have to die first though, meaning Cersei should be in power for a considerable amount of time; I think she'll prevail. Also when re-reading AFFC, Brienne sees the big lame man's face. If it was truly the Hound, wouldn't she recognize his burned face?
Cersei will be in power throughout TWOW; Varys has made certain of that.
I can see Varys killing Tommen just to have Cersei lose her mind completely. Then doesn't Dorne still have Myrcella? They could kill Myrcella as revenge (or pretend to) and show that they're backing Connington. Then Cersei gets boned in her trial.
I can see Varys killing Tommen just to have Cersei lose her mind completely. Then doesn't Dorne still have Myrcella? They could kill Myrcella as revenge (or pretend to) and show that they're backing Connington. Then Cersei gets boned in her trial.
She's still the only heir to Casterly Rock. Jaime is off god knows where and Tyrion's rights are kinda in the shitter right now. Also Myrcella is still a princess.
She's still the only heir to Casterly Rock. Jaime is off god knows where and Tyrion's rights are kinda in the shitter right now. Also Myrcella is still a princess.
Myrcella is still in Dorne with a fucked up face and once Tommen is gone, nothing stops Highgarden from taking control. Mace Tyrell might look like a fool but his daughter and mother are wily enough to not fuck up as hard as Cersei will.
Admittedly the counter-argument is that
Tommen dying would screw the Tyrells as well, if Aegon's campaign is successful.
Myrcella is still in Dorne with a fucked up face and once Tommen is gone, nothing stops Highgarden from taking control. Mace Tyrell might look like a fool but his daughter and mother are wily enough to not fuck up as hard as Cersei will.
Agreed. Tommen is the only thing that keeps Cersei in power; killing him would ruin Varys plan, as the Tyrells seem far more potent than the Lannisters right now. I'd imagine Varys certainly wants Tommen dead, but not until Cersei has fucked up the realm.
I wonder if Highgarden would declare for Aegon if Tommen was out of the way. Perhaps another marriage for Margery lol
We all understand that Dany is Azor Ahai right? Therefore eventually she is going to have to come to the wall and fight the White Walkers. But if the Wall is magical and they can't pass the wall, I don't see the problem with just closing all but the nightfort gates and put all the guards there I suppose...
Jon could be AA. The explanation for that is a few pages back I think. We probably won't know until book 7 though, so...a decade from now, if we're lucky =/
Also, GRRM mentioned the Horn of Joramun one too many times for him not to make good on that. The wall is coming down, sooner or later, I'm almost sure of it.
ColonialRaptor said:
Who is going to keep the peace between the three thousand wildlings and nights watch now? Lets just hope that Melisendre can revive Jon and does, I don't imagine she will be happy that he's gone, though I felt he was starting to make stupid choices anyhow.
Unless the wildlings were in on what happened, it doesn't make much sense does it? He was the only thing holding them all together, and without him, there are suddenly giants and thousands of wildlings on this side of the wall to tend with (and no Stannis, with his knights to protect the watch)
ColonialRaptor said:
It seems to me that Westeros is almost in ruins after this whole thing and anyone who claims the throne has a hell of a mess to climb out of. It's amazing how badly Cersei managed to fuck things up for herself, loved her chapters.
I agree. Cersei's complete descent into madness over the past couple of books has been some of the best material in the entire series (for me anyway). I really hope that her pissing off the Iron Bank of Braavos has real implications. If they send Arya to kill Cersei....oh my God....incredible.
Myrcella is still in Dorne with a fucked up face and once Tommen is gone, nothing stops Highgarden from taking control. Mace Tyrell might look like a fool but his daughter and mother are wily enough to not fuck up as hard as Cersei will.
Admittedly the counter-argument is that
Tommen dying would screw the Tyrells as well, if Aegon's campaign is successful.
It is probably because we don't know anything about him, but
'Young Griff'
is the most likeable of the current contenders for the Iron Throne. I used to want it to be Dany, but well then this book happened. Dany is like the Starks in that the most interesting thing about them is their pets.
Just finished it. First thoughts below; (tagged) spoilers for the whole book.
Well, first, let my say that I really, really loved A Feast for Crows. I loved the slow pace; I loved Brienne's chapters; I loved Dorne. In short, I loved this little tour of Westeros. But unsurprisingly, much of this love came from my love for Westeros itself.
Westeros, where all families, and pieces of land, all events are intricately interconnected, to form a rich, mind-numbingly compelling tapestry of honor, betrayal, love and death - and above all, secrets. A world we can relate to - both because it resembles the well-known western middle-ages, and because we discover it through several of its inhabitants.
And in the end, this is why I just can't love A Dance with Dragons: I just can't love Essos it itself.
I always felt that Essos had but two functions in Song: it was Dany's proving ground, and a place where some of Westeros's most well-guarded secrets could be kept safe, and flourish. In short, Essos was a place where Westerosi went only to fight, move from place to place (as Dany did), and return - or die trying. It was both a safe haven and snake pit, but it was never meant to stand on its own; if characters chose to dwell there, I certainly never wanted to read their POVs.
Why? Because Essos is dead.
When Hizdahr zo Loraq told Dany that before her coming, he felt that Meereen was dying a slow death, it suddenly occurred to me that I felt that way about the whole continent, save Braavos - more on that later. Same thing when Tyrion reflected on Essos's past glory when passing ruins on the Rhoyne; only to encounter the decaying stone men.
Essos is a festering corpse, a sick land clinging to the past, home to slavers, sellswords and vain lords. Throughout the books, the continent has always felt ripe for a good burning, and this is probably what made Dany's victories so enjoyable.
Some may say that Westeros's corruption equals Essos's. Others will add that this lack of empathy for Essos may come from my modern set of ethics (slavery is bad, mmmmkay?) and affection for western medieval lore: after all, it is true that I enjoy the Venice-inspired Braavos a lot more than the other cities. Both points may very well be correct. Yet I would argue that Martin himself doesn't want us to love Essos (he has said before that "the story is about Westeros"). I guess he just tried to make it interesting; interesting enough to become the main setting of a whole book. Yet in my opinion, A Dance with Dragons failed in that regard. The sense of wonder is there - especially during some of the
Tyrion
chapters; but it's mostly Essos's past that triggers it; seldom the present. Martin never manages to give us one (ONE!) compelling Essosi character. They can be funny, they can be strong, they can be fearsome, but they never feel human; never entirely. Mostly because none of them are POVs; and mostly because a good share of them are vile or brutal men with no apparent redeeming values (the two reasons are linked, of course).
Westeros is a brutal place, true, and there is no shortage of vile men in its towns and castles, as Dance demonstrates too. But in the end, it's the tapestry that matters; the interwoven destinies of these men that keep the story (and our interest) going. Westerosi men and women lust for power, too, but some fight for an ideal; for a family; for a place. A place we know and love.
And this is why a simple trip to the Stark's crypt and Barristan's reminiscences felt, to me at least, much more interesting than all Dany's early chapters combined.
All I all, I feel like I should have relished the
long trip towards Meereen
, and I envy the ones that did (Amir0x, Zephyr, and all my fellow A Feast for Crows supporters). Yet I just couldn't buy Essos; suspend my disbelief and care about this place. When George's worldbuilding magic doesn't work, his characters' adventures often have the look and feel of an offensively predictable game of Cyvasse: I could see the players' strategy all too clearly, and couldn't help but to mutter "get on with it!" far too many times.
Other observations:
- So, Theon's gonna come home, call the whole Kingsmoot a sham for he couldn't participate, and claim the power for himself (and his sweet sister), is that it? Asha's final idea is a definite plot armor for those two.
- Jon... That was almost worst than the Red Wedding for me, seriously. The "Yeah, let's fuck up the Bastard!" elation was a remarkable set-up. Masterful. The whole warg thing will soften the blow, however...
- Cersei's fate (being robbed of her essential physical quality) clearly mirrors Jaime's; though I guess it won't change her the way it changed her brother...
- What to make of little Aegon... He his nearly perfect, and thus shall suffer an horrible death, I'd wager.
- Quentyn was alreay dead (or at least defeated) in my book when he said Daenerys would honor her part of the bargain. In Song, any man who assumes victory (or dutiful acceptance from a woman) is doomed.
And, lastly, a tribute to A Dance with Dragons:
The crossbow thrummed
Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM
Doom BOOM doom BOOM doom BOOM
Words are wind
serjeant
and those damn elephants, man. They're everywhere.
Well, time to think a bit more about the book. I'll give my more in-depth impressions later!
Sandor will be the church's representative in cersei's trial by combat (as a holy warrior), and will kill his brother, thus condemning cersei to death and fulfilling the "valonqar" prophecy (her death will come from the little brother...little brother being sandor in this case)
Sandor Clegane is still alive? I thought he was dead from that wound festering, which Arya abandoned him to. Then later on, that priest said he found him dead.
I'm at 50% in the kindle edition, and I've been avoiding this for fear of accidental spoilers. However, so far I am really loving it. There are a couple POVs that drag more than others, but not a one is really bad or boring.
There have been interesting twists, too-- including one which I sadly thought undermined an interesting moment:
Mance not really dying in that pyre. I liked the idea of him losing it and getting cowardly at the end.
Sandor Clegane is still alive? I thought he was dead from that wound festering, which Arya abandoned him to. Then later on, that priest said he found him dead.
Sandor Clegane is still alive? I thought he was dead from that wound festering, which Arya abandoned him to. Then later on, that priest said he found him dead.
Well, finished it. Thought it started off pretty darn slow then started picking up the pace a third through the book, then became wtf this book is great near the end.
The series will end with Brienne and Wun Wun taking turns sitting atop the Iron Throne. The Hand will be Sam Tarly and the Master of Coin will be Penny.
The series will end with Brienne and Wun Wun taking turns sitting atop the Iron Throne. The Hand will be Sam Tarly and the Master of Coin will be Penny.
So, on a macro level, I take some issue with Martins pacing and narrative structure (its coming clear to me that he shouldve crammed all the characters into A Feast for Crows, rather than splitting the volumes by region) and lament that this relatively lax period of Westeross history has to be chronicled in such detail. On a micro level, however, Martins as strong as hes ever been. Stronger, even.
... why don't you just read AFFC? The books can basically be read in tandem until page 600 or so of ADWD. And I'd go so far as to say that both books improve upon each other by being read simultaneously, as the complete book they are meant to be.
... why don't you just read AFFC? The books can basically be read in tandem until page 600 or so of ADWD. And I'd go so far as to say that both books improve upon each other by being read simultaneously, as the complete book they are meant to be.
I think in the next book we are going to find out that all of the maesters are basically lying SOB's who can never be trusted. They kind of hinted at it before but I think it will be confirmed in Sam's POVs in the next books.
Fair enough. I actually read ADWD not having read AFFC since 2005, so... by all means, go for it, but I think the complete experience is reading both at the same time.
Fair enough. I actually read ADWD not having read AFFC since 2005, so... by all means, go for it, but I think the complete experience is reading both at the same time.
Just finished the prologue...Pretty fucking awesome. It's been ~5 years since I read anything from this series and did I somehow miss that
Jon Snow is a skinchanger? Was this ever brought up, or just intimated through context clues? Are the rest of the Stark kids skinchangers, too? This would make sense for Bran, as I seem to remember there was something weird about his connect to his direwolf.
So far it seems the wait was worth it...Don't flame me for that comment, as I know that one chapter does not a book make.
ZephyrFate said:
... why don't you just read AFFC? The books can basically be read in tandem until page 600 or so of ADWD. And I'd go so far as to say that both books improve upon each other by being read simultaneously, as the complete book they are meant to be.
Just finished the prologue...Pretty fucking awesome. It's been ~5 years since I read anything from this series and did I somehow miss that
Jon Snow is a skinchanger? Was this ever brought up, or just intimated through context clues? Are the rest of the Stark kids skinchangers, too? This would make sense for Bran, as I seem to remember there was something weird about his connect to his direwolf.
So far it seems the wait was worth it...Don't flame me for that comment, as I know that one chapter does not a book make.
all the Stark children were wargs... what if Sansa possessed Robert, roused up the Vale, made war on the Lannisters/Tyrells, and married Aegon? Endgame.
sure, they call him that, doesn't mean it's true. I'm just saying from a narrative perspective, the dreams and whatnot made it clear he and arya were to some extent.
Just finished the prologue...Pretty fucking awesome. It's been ~5 years since I read anything from this series and did I somehow miss that
Jon Snow is a skinchanger? Was this ever brought up, or just intimated through context clues? Are the rest of the Stark kids skinchangers, too? This would make sense for Bran, as I seem to remember there was something weird about his connect to his direwolf.
Bran, Jon and Arya are definitely wargs. Bran and Jon have been warging since at least ACOK, Arya has since ASOS maybe earlier but she definitely did in ASOS. Robb we'll never know, and Sansa is somewhat doubtful.
Bran, Jon and Arya are definitely wargs. Bran and Jon have been warging since at least ACOK, Arya has since ASOS maybe earlier but she definitely did in ASOS. Robb we'll never know, and Sansa is somewhat doubtful.
1) Jon - That letter read fake to me. Ramsay Bolton couldn't know of Lightbringer or written the letter in that way unless he'd taken part in smashing Stannis's army and Roose was indisposed or dead. Both things taking place seem unlikely to me given how we left Winterfell. The emotional recovery of Theon would be completely moot, as with Asha's journey. Plus, I don't see Martin skipping on The Battle of Winterfell. So, who knew of Lightbringer? Who knew that Mance was in Winterfell? Who had access to prior ravens from Ramsay allowing for the emulation of his style? Who would want to provoke Jon Snow? Why was Melisandre present and then suddenly absent when Jon was exhorting the wildings to march south with him? If he was so important to her plans as she claims, why didn't she intervene more directly? And hadn't she also been pretty sure that Stannis wasn't in all that much danger? Yes, it's a stretch, but I think Melisandre wrote the letter because she wanted Jon dead... and reborn. She kept asking her god to see more of Azhor Azhai and all she got were visions of Jon. I think she finally put two and two together and wanted to see if maybe she had erred in pronouncing Stannis AA too early--his Lightbringer, of course, may shine but it does not have the heat that was said to come from the true one of the past, according to Master Aemon. Perhaps he was just the John the Baptist on the way to JS, as it were. If Jon is really dead then I'll be surprised. But not shocked!; never shocked after the Red Wedding. (Although, even then, as the prologue kind of foreshadows, he could live on warging through Ghost--still, that could just have been a preview to Bran's greenseeing.)
2) Dany - OMG. When she's not in fire and blood mode, she is deathly boring and ridiculously naive about the conditions of peace: all-but-ignoring the underlying realpolitik of her position. Selmy's chapters were super-awesome by comparison. After Dany's last chapter, though, it seems like she's finally about to do something. Hopefully, she returns to Mereen on-top of Drogon ready to be the Mother she should have been from the start.
3) Tyrion - Best chapters, as always. A grand survival travelogue. What else is there to say?
5) Epilogue - Varys taking out Kevan Lannister like that was awesome and, of course, confirms everything we thought and knew. You can't help but wish that Illyrio and Varys's Connington back-up plan works. But Aegon seems so blandly perfect... it reminds one of Robb. And we all saw how that turned out. I'd still bet on Dany of the two Targaryens.
All in all, I'm satisfied. I've slaked my thirst. But the set-up for Winds of Winter is incredible.
I can't wait for The Battle of Mereen, whatever happened or is about to happen at Winterfell, the aftermath to Jon Snow's betrayal and presumed death at the Wall, the chaos in KL after Kevan Lannister and Pycelle's murder, Aegon and Connington's march on Storm's End, and the progress of Jaime, Brienne, Davos, Arya, Bran, etc.
Should be good--in five years or whenever. Time to read Butcher's new Dresden novel!
All in all, I'm satisfied. I've slaked my thirst. But the set-up for Winds of Winter is incredible.
I can't wait for The Battle of Mereen, whatever happened or is about to happen at Winterfell, the aftermath to Jon Snow's betrayal and presumed death at the Wall, the chaos in KL after Kevan Lannister and Pycelle's murder, Aegon and Connington's march on Storm's End, and the progress of Jaime, Brienne, Davos, Arya, Bran, etc.
Should be good--in five years or whenever. Time to read Butcher's new Dresden novel!
That's pretty much how I feel. The pieces are finally set, and Winds of Winter will be on Storm of Swords level of absurdly shocking twists and epic battles.
You are right about the battle of Winterfell: the letter is obviously fake. For one, the Greyjoys siblings must escape. As I said in my first impressions, Theon will clearly (try to) become the new lord of the Iron Isles. Should be interesting, to say the least.
That's pretty much how I feel. The pieces are finally set, and Winds of Winter will be on Storm of Swords level of absurdly shocking twists and epic battles.
You are right about the battle of Winterfell: the letter is obviously fake. For one, the Greyjoys siblings must escape. As I said in my first impressions, Theon will clearly (try to) become the new lord of the Iron Isles. Should be interesting, to say the least.
Yup, one of the Greyjoys definitely live. Asha is reportedly a POV in WoW, so that casts further doubt on the letter. What that means for Jon, though, we'll see.
Yup, one of the Greyjoys definitely live. Asha is reportedly a POV in WoW, so that casts further doubt on the letter. What that means for Jon, though, we'll see.
Yeah, Asha's idea (about the Kingsmoot's jurisprudence, and how somebody who didn't get a chance to have his say can call the whole thing a sham) clearly indicates that she'll put Theon on the throne. I really, really hope we'll get to read WoW someday...
Yeah, Asha's idea (about the Kingsmoot's jurisprudence, and how somebody who didn't get a chance to have his say can call the whole thing a sham) clearly indicates that she'll put Theon on the throne. I really, really hope we'll get to read WoW someday...
Yeah, Asha will definitely rule from the shadows. And I agree: Theon isn't loved, and that's a problem. He'll have to come home with something spectacular to offer... Well, his uncles could fuck up tremendously in the meantime, too.
