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A Dance with Dragons |OT| - Read the rules or Melisandre casts magic missile
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
ZephyrFate
Banned
Wait... seriously? You've missed the R + L = J theories completely?Akuun said:
elrechazado
Banned
Luca brasi sleeps with the fishes. It's just what it means in that culture. you are correct about who left it.Help Me! said:
Telosfortelos
Advocate for the People
This isn't your typical internet theory. It's heavily alluded to as early as book one. She died in her bed of blood and bed of blood is used to mean birthing bed elsewhere in the series, "promise me Ned", three white knights protecting her in her tower, etc, etc. Just re-read the chapter where Ned is waking up after being attacked by Jaime and the chapter when Ned is first in the dungeon, that should spell it out for you. If that's not enough, just think about how every rational person thinks of Rhaegar as honorable, think about how she left with him after the tourney at Harenhal. The list of could go on and on.Irish said:
elrechazado
Banned
But spotting telegraphed plot points put in intentionally by the author is kind of what everyone does when reading books. Lots of people probably thought that joffrey might not be robert's son in got when they read that jaime and cersei were bangin.Irish said:
Ninja Beagle
Member
Can someone PM me the difference between wights and the Others. I'm halfway through ADWD and I seriously thought they were one in the same. My memory is a little foggy and a PM would be great as I don't want to risk seeing any spoilers in this thread.
Basileus777
Member
It's not a ADWD spoiler. Other=ice demon, wight = zombie raised by ice demon. When people or animals die north of the wall, the Others can raise them from the dead as wights.wiggins022 said:
elrechazado
Banned
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/Fuzzery said:
Telosfortelos
Advocate for the People
End spoiler (or abouts I'd guess):
Hey renitou, mark your fucking spoilers. The posts above you were about a thing and I highlighted yours a) because it's early and b) because I assumed it was a continuation of that thing. The OP requests that you mark your spoilers so people know how far into the book your spoiler goes. I had already guessed at this spoiler whenrenitou said:Jon
people were reacting to the leaks before the book came out, but now you've confirmed it. =/ I'm only at about 70% still.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
ZephyrFate said:
Agreed. A rather simplistic line of thought, I think.
ADWD was pretty typical of a middle-book with a lot of set-up and things set in perfect motion to go ka-boom. The way things were left at the end there, I'm surprised anyone would think Winds of Winter is going to see a pick-up in the action stakes: I mean,bionic77 said:
The Battle of Mereen, whatever has happened or is about to happen at Winterfell, the aftermath at The Wall to Jon Snow's presumed death, Aegon and Connington marching on Storm's End, the chaos about to go off in King's Landing, etc.
angelkimne said:
Set to private? :/
Blue Ninja
Member
Just an observation: I loved [end of book spoilers]
So good.
the eerie feeling I got when Kevan saw the white raven and realized Winter was finally here. If the TV series ever gets that far, I can totally see the "Beyond the Wall"-theme playing at that point.
So good.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
wiggins022 said:
I had this same problem for a long time.
Wights = zombies
Others = Tall pale creatures that are somehow behind the Wights.
We hardly ever see the Others. They are in the prologue in Game of Thrones, though.
P< coming as well.
IAmtheFMan
Member
Oooookay... just finished it. Today was really the first day that I had to really read it, (having only have 10-15 minutes each day for the last 3 weeks.) I blasted through 500 some pages today and just recently finished.
First of all, I'm not sure why a lot of people are down on this book. Yeah it gets a little long-winded with some of the chapters, but I always felt that there was some momentum. The last 200 pages went by super quick for me.
Now the long wait for the next one.
First of all, I'm not sure why a lot of people are down on this book. Yeah it gets a little long-winded with some of the chapters, but I always felt that there was some momentum. The last 200 pages went by super quick for me.
Jon: For the most part, I enjoyed his story but there were way too many times when i was thinking "you're pissing off TOO many people dude." His "death" definitely wasn't as out of the blue as the RW what with the prologue. I also posted earlier that I was worried since he decapitated Slynt, and Stark's that do that at the beginning of the book usually don't do too well (Ned, Robb, now Jon.) I swear to God, if the next one opens with Arya decapitating somebody, I'm gonna throw the book out the window.
I'm totally on board with him not being done in the story. I can see him either being A) just in Ghost's body or B) actually AA reborn and will be reincarnated in some fashion or another.
Dany: Aside from the "I heart Daario" stuff, I didn't mind her chapters too much. They were obviously the weakest of the bunch, but I thought that the end started to pick up again. However while I've been patient with the last 3 books in terms of her being on Essos vs. Westeros, at this point there's only 2 books left. Let's get going.
Tyrion: Hit or miss for me. Unlike his chapters in the past books, I felt like he was just kinda "along for the ride." He didn't have a clear goal and something new came up and he was like "yeah sure! I'll see Dany/ride down this river/be a slave, as long as I find out where whore's go!" Granted I think his story will get more interesting in the next book, it just didn' quite do it for me.
Bran: What can I say? Probably the best chapters in the book. The mythology and world-digging that Martin did in these three brief chapters was awesome, and I loved 'em.
Theon/Reek: For me, right behind the Bran chapters and the biggest surprise. Theon in ADWD was what Jaime was in ASoS... essentially an arc to redemption. Yeah he was a dick and caused a lot of the turmoil that was going on, but his suffering and near mental breakdown was captured so well that you couldn't help feeling bad. These chapters also gave amazing insight into how fucking twisted Ramsay actually is. I really hope that Theon continues to grow as a characters and gets the full arc he deserves.
Davos: His last chapter was a total high-five moment. I'm so glad that he wasn't dead but unfortunately that was the last of his chapters.
Quentyn: These were okay. I couldn't help but feel sorry for him, but also shake my head. Knowing what we knew about Dany, this kid never had a chance.
Barristan: Excellent chapters, and I'm glad that these moved with a good momentum. I hope to see more of his POV in the future.
Jaime: Good chapter, but basically resolved one cliffhanger (Brienne's alive!) with another (fate of Jaime.)
Arya: As always, Arya chapters were super great. She's definitely turning into one little badass.
Cersei: I liked her chapters here better than in AFFC. Seeing her confidence shrink on her walk of shame was really fascinating, and the epilogue where she's demure and quiet was an interesting angle.
Aegon/Connington: Yeah this definitely threw another kink into the story. Just proves to show you that whenver you think you may have an idea where things are going, Martin throws some new element into the story. I only started seeing this coming when Tyrion said "you're a dead boy" or something along those lines.
Overall, I really liked it. Sure there wasn't a sense of completion with any of the stories, but then again there's still two books. The one thing that I think I'm over is that enough bad shit has happened to the Starks. Seriously. I mean Bran got crippled, Ned/Robb/Cat/Jon, everyone thinking Bran/Rickon are dead including Sansa and Arya, Winterfell was razed and is being occupied by the Bolton's; enough is enough. I half expect Davos to show up toe Skagos and step off his boat and see cannibals eating Rickon's head at this point.
I also mentioned earlier that the splitting up thing was poorly done. I know that there's a ton of POV's now, but it was just really jarring trying to figure out where things were in relation to AFFC.
I'm totally on board with him not being done in the story. I can see him either being A) just in Ghost's body or B) actually AA reborn and will be reincarnated in some fashion or another.
Dany: Aside from the "I heart Daario" stuff, I didn't mind her chapters too much. They were obviously the weakest of the bunch, but I thought that the end started to pick up again. However while I've been patient with the last 3 books in terms of her being on Essos vs. Westeros, at this point there's only 2 books left. Let's get going.
Tyrion: Hit or miss for me. Unlike his chapters in the past books, I felt like he was just kinda "along for the ride." He didn't have a clear goal and something new came up and he was like "yeah sure! I'll see Dany/ride down this river/be a slave, as long as I find out where whore's go!" Granted I think his story will get more interesting in the next book, it just didn' quite do it for me.
Bran: What can I say? Probably the best chapters in the book. The mythology and world-digging that Martin did in these three brief chapters was awesome, and I loved 'em.
Theon/Reek: For me, right behind the Bran chapters and the biggest surprise. Theon in ADWD was what Jaime was in ASoS... essentially an arc to redemption. Yeah he was a dick and caused a lot of the turmoil that was going on, but his suffering and near mental breakdown was captured so well that you couldn't help feeling bad. These chapters also gave amazing insight into how fucking twisted Ramsay actually is. I really hope that Theon continues to grow as a characters and gets the full arc he deserves.
Davos: His last chapter was a total high-five moment. I'm so glad that he wasn't dead but unfortunately that was the last of his chapters.
Quentyn: These were okay. I couldn't help but feel sorry for him, but also shake my head. Knowing what we knew about Dany, this kid never had a chance.
Barristan: Excellent chapters, and I'm glad that these moved with a good momentum. I hope to see more of his POV in the future.
Jaime: Good chapter, but basically resolved one cliffhanger (Brienne's alive!) with another (fate of Jaime.)
Arya: As always, Arya chapters were super great. She's definitely turning into one little badass.
Cersei: I liked her chapters here better than in AFFC. Seeing her confidence shrink on her walk of shame was really fascinating, and the epilogue where she's demure and quiet was an interesting angle.
Aegon/Connington: Yeah this definitely threw another kink into the story. Just proves to show you that whenver you think you may have an idea where things are going, Martin throws some new element into the story. I only started seeing this coming when Tyrion said "you're a dead boy" or something along those lines.
Overall, I really liked it. Sure there wasn't a sense of completion with any of the stories, but then again there's still two books. The one thing that I think I'm over is that enough bad shit has happened to the Starks. Seriously. I mean Bran got crippled, Ned/Robb/Cat/Jon, everyone thinking Bran/Rickon are dead including Sansa and Arya, Winterfell was razed and is being occupied by the Bolton's; enough is enough. I half expect Davos to show up toe Skagos and step off his boat and see cannibals eating Rickon's head at this point.
I also mentioned earlier that the splitting up thing was poorly done. I know that there's a ton of POV's now, but it was just really jarring trying to figure out where things were in relation to AFFC.
Now the long wait for the next one.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I'm having trouble seeing how that'd matter.Akuun said:
For the Watch!
Red Nightmare
Banned
I think he point of Tyrion's chapters was to see him slowly (slooooooowly) recover his humanity. He was spiritually dead after killing his "father" and Shae. They did drag, though. But, it is what it is. Bring on the next book ASAP, fat George!
ColonialRaptor
Member
I just wanted to say:
Full book spoilers, theory questions and discussion:
Full book spoilers, theory questions and discussion:
Why is there any discussion about who Azor Ahai reborn is... I don't know how anyone can dispute that the prophecy points towards Dany.
Storm Born, Dragon's from Stone, everything about the prophecy as far as I can see and tell it points it all towards Dany.
I can't even figure out how anyone is thinking that Jon is possibly AA, nor anyone else. It is Dany without a doubt in my mind.
I am also confused about these ideas that Jon is a Targeryan... wasn't Jon's mother's name 'Wylla' or something like that? I'm sure Ned said her name was Wylla on the TV show... why would he tell King Robert the wrong name? Can someone please explain the ideas behind this too me?
Someone earlier said that Asha died... I don't think she died, it didn't say anything about her dying.
I also don't believe that Stannis is dead. It's common knowledge that he fights with Lightbringer because he had it on the battlefield at the battle of Blackwater, that's the only thing that points to talking about Stannis. The rest of the info in that letter refers only to Mance right?
I'm still sad about Jon but I wasn't surprised. He was pissing to many people off, and turning the Watch against the realm was the final straw... WTF was he thinking. FOOL FOOL!
Tyrion seem's to have re-couped his 'strength' in the world with his band of sell swords and the promises of gold to them all. This will all have to balance on him being the sole surviving main Lannister family heir, and the way things are going... It seems that only Cersei is in his way, and it's doubtful that she will hold on for that long. I mean, Tommen and Mycella are there as well, but do we honestly believe that they are going to last that long?
The interesting talk about Sandor Clegane being reborn is very interesting indeed, and I agree with it. "The Hound" Died, just like the priest once died. That's exactly how it is said - spelled out.
Dorne will not be happy when they find out about the 8 foot man Ser Richard Strong walking around King's Landing. Who else is it but Gregor Clegane. Can't wait to see what happens with that character - I am guessing that they will lose control of him and he will begin spreading wights beneath The Wall personally.
Two more books? I don't think so. It will be extended further I believe.
I just can't wait to see how Arya will fit into the rest of the story - she has to have a very important part. Who will they send her to assassinate? It will have to have something to do with the Iron Bank right?
Storm Born, Dragon's from Stone, everything about the prophecy as far as I can see and tell it points it all towards Dany.
I can't even figure out how anyone is thinking that Jon is possibly AA, nor anyone else. It is Dany without a doubt in my mind.
I am also confused about these ideas that Jon is a Targeryan... wasn't Jon's mother's name 'Wylla' or something like that? I'm sure Ned said her name was Wylla on the TV show... why would he tell King Robert the wrong name? Can someone please explain the ideas behind this too me?
Someone earlier said that Asha died... I don't think she died, it didn't say anything about her dying.
I also don't believe that Stannis is dead. It's common knowledge that he fights with Lightbringer because he had it on the battlefield at the battle of Blackwater, that's the only thing that points to talking about Stannis. The rest of the info in that letter refers only to Mance right?
I'm still sad about Jon but I wasn't surprised. He was pissing to many people off, and turning the Watch against the realm was the final straw... WTF was he thinking. FOOL FOOL!
Tyrion seem's to have re-couped his 'strength' in the world with his band of sell swords and the promises of gold to them all. This will all have to balance on him being the sole surviving main Lannister family heir, and the way things are going... It seems that only Cersei is in his way, and it's doubtful that she will hold on for that long. I mean, Tommen and Mycella are there as well, but do we honestly believe that they are going to last that long?
The interesting talk about Sandor Clegane being reborn is very interesting indeed, and I agree with it. "The Hound" Died, just like the priest once died. That's exactly how it is said - spelled out.
Dorne will not be happy when they find out about the 8 foot man Ser Richard Strong walking around King's Landing. Who else is it but Gregor Clegane. Can't wait to see what happens with that character - I am guessing that they will lose control of him and he will begin spreading wights beneath The Wall personally.
Two more books? I don't think so. It will be extended further I believe.
I just can't wait to see how Arya will fit into the rest of the story - she has to have a very important part. Who will they send her to assassinate? It will have to have something to do with the Iron Bank right?
IAmtheFMan
Member
ColonialRaptor said:
Whole book spoilers:
Up until Dance I would totally agree with you but now I'm not so sure. Here's Mel's quote from AsoS:
Yeah Dany fits with the red comet, the smoke from the funeral pyre, salt = tears and she was reborn in the fire and the dragons part is obvious. Martin plays with us a bit though with the Dance. First there's this interesting quote from Mel's POV.
I thought it was interesting that Snow is capitalized. They clearly intend for us to think of Jon in this case. Likewise Jon's death fits some of the criteria...
The red star bleeds: I had to go back and read it, but Ser Patrek's sigil is a star and he's obviously bleeding as Wun Wun swings him around
Darkness gathers: His brothers from the Night's Watch gather around him
Amidst smoke: Jon's wound with smoke coming out
and salt: Bowen's tears.
To wake dragons out of stone: This one's less clear.
So my thoughts? We don't know. It probably still is Dany, but Jon's a stronger candidate then he's been. Granted this might be Martin playing with us since he tends to give red-herrings everywhere. Beric Dondarrion was a candidate at one point and Stannis still could be.
The red star bleeds: I had to go back and read it, but Ser Patrek's sigil is a star and he's obviously bleeding as Wun Wun swings him around
Darkness gathers: His brothers from the Night's Watch gather around him
Amidst smoke: Jon's wound with smoke coming out
and salt: Bowen's tears.
To wake dragons out of stone: This one's less clear.
So my thoughts? We don't know. It probably still is Dany, but Jon's a stronger candidate then he's been. Granted this might be Martin playing with us since he tends to give red-herrings everywhere. Beric Dondarrion was a candidate at one point and Stannis still could be.
Colonial Raptor said:
This is one of the biggest question marks of the series. The book is never clear about Jon's parentage.
Ned says Wylla both in the book and the show. However even in the way Sean Bean plays it in the show, he's hesitant to talk about it and just mentions the name only when Robert keeps pushing.
There's theories that Jon is actually the bastard kid of Lyanna Stark (Ned's sister) and Rhaegar Targaryen (Dany's brother.) If you remember, they ran off together after the tournament where he declared her queen of beauty or whatever. This prompted the course of events leading to Robert's Rebellion. Towards the end of that war, Ned made his way up there and found her dying. We don't have full details of how she died, but she did keep saying "Promise me, Ned" which if you remember from GoT haunts him almost to the end. A lot of people interpret this to mean she had a baby and wanted the baby safe: hence Jon Snow. This would also explain why Ned is so defensive about Jon and always tells Cat "He's of my blood, that's all you need to know," etc.
I do hope this gets answered. There's only one person alive at this point that knows (Howland Reed, Meera and Jojen's father) who was there too.
Interesting, I think Dance probably dashes another theory that Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne. In a Barristan chapter he says that he was in love with her, and wanted to comfort her after she had a baby that was stillborn, but was too late when she threw herself out the window.
Ned says Wylla both in the book and the show. However even in the way Sean Bean plays it in the show, he's hesitant to talk about it and just mentions the name only when Robert keeps pushing.
There's theories that Jon is actually the bastard kid of Lyanna Stark (Ned's sister) and Rhaegar Targaryen (Dany's brother.) If you remember, they ran off together after the tournament where he declared her queen of beauty or whatever. This prompted the course of events leading to Robert's Rebellion. Towards the end of that war, Ned made his way up there and found her dying. We don't have full details of how she died, but she did keep saying "Promise me, Ned" which if you remember from GoT haunts him almost to the end. A lot of people interpret this to mean she had a baby and wanted the baby safe: hence Jon Snow. This would also explain why Ned is so defensive about Jon and always tells Cat "He's of my blood, that's all you need to know," etc.
I do hope this gets answered. There's only one person alive at this point that knows (Howland Reed, Meera and Jojen's father) who was there too.
Interesting, I think Dance probably dashes another theory that Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne. In a Barristan chapter he says that he was in love with her, and wanted to comfort her after she had a baby that was stillborn, but was too late when she threw herself out the window.
Colonial Raptor said:
Yeah I don't think we know the full details about Asha, Stannis and Theon, and I don't buy that they're dead yet. I also don't buy that Stannis actually HAS the true Lightbringer.
We shoud probably move this discussion to the open thread though. That's a lot of blacking out.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I'm pretty sure thatColonialRaptor said:
Bolton's bastard was lying through his teeth for most of that letter. I think the only part of it that was true was him whining about his bride. He clearly hadn't caught Stannis since he'd have gotten his bride back already.
Theon meeting up with them in the camp would've warned them about the turncloak in their midst and the pending attack etc. I doubt that fight's going as well as the Boltons planned.
Theon meeting up with them in the camp would've warned them about the turncloak in their midst and the pending attack etc. I doubt that fight's going as well as the Boltons planned.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Ha!bathala said:
Must say, having finished the book today,
the Reek chapters are the highlight for me.
If Stannis is beaten then I am so pissed. Jon's fate.. well if he is alive, what kind of state will he be in for winter? How would he survive? Be reborn or have that be his death. Shame, he generally seemed to do the right thing. I'm not sure I agree with his decision to go south.
And yes, most of the Dany chapters waste too much time. I think I get what GRRM was trying to do/say, but the cost was too high.
Also fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu with the Jaime teaser, the fucker.
If Stannis is beaten then I am so pissed. Jon's fate.. well if he is alive, what kind of state will he be in for winter? How would he survive? Be reborn or have that be his death. Shame, he generally seemed to do the right thing. I'm not sure I agree with his decision to go south.
And yes, most of the Dany chapters waste too much time. I think I get what GRRM was trying to do/say, but the cost was too high.
Also fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu with the Jaime teaser, the fucker.
I started off really slow with this book...and late, as I still had to finish AFFC when Dance released.
On the Kindle, I show myself at 66% and things are kind of picking up as I can tell the story is no longer attached to AFFC time frame. I can see I'll be blazing a path to the end from here on out.
On the Kindle, I show myself at 66% and things are kind of picking up as I can tell the story is no longer attached to AFFC time frame. I can see I'll be blazing a path to the end from here on out.
Just finished it, wow that was amazing. The first chapter was my favorite, the book started off really well. I lost some interest in the second half when it started feeling like A Feast for Crows Part 2. Although I have come to appreciate A Feast for Crows more in the weeks since I finished it.
I could have done with more Bran and less Dany chapters.
ZephyrFate
Banned
That's because it IS A Feast for Crows Part 2.apana said:
ColonialRaptor
Member
IAmtheFMan said:
Holy shit.
To everything you just said.
Just.
Wow.
Continued from my last post - just a short few extra points, hard to move threads because the discussion is here.
The theory about Jon not being Ned's son. It's got to be that way. When Ned left him and said "next time I see you I'll tell you all about your mother", I think was the intent to tell him all about the truth here.
Now. If Jon is a Targ, he cannot die. When he comes back to life from this attack, that could be when Azor Ahai is "reborn", but Mel's prophecy's have been wrong almost EVERY time so far, so I don't know if I trust anything she see's in the fire.
Has Jon ever said whether his Valyrian Steel Bastard Sword was never quite as cold as the other normal steel swords? I seem to recall that somewhere... I can't remember where... but did he say it wasn't 'cold' to the touch or something? Like something like he was surprised when he touched the blade and his skin didn't peel away, because any other normal sword his skin would have stuck because it was so icy cold. Could that have been a clue that his sword is the real Lightbringer? Or am I just imagining things here.
The only thing missing from this whole theory is the Dragons. Though - they didn't really burn the horn of whatever it is, and perhaps that's a Dragon horn! Just wild guesses coming out here.
Also - about Bran. I kind of think it's cool his chapters, but what the fuck is the point of being a Greenseer - they can't DO anything but watch as everything passes by. What is the point of just watching? It's stupid. Bran isn't going to like just watching, and I bet that's what is going to happen in the end, he's going to become the most powerful Greenseer and change the past or some shit.
Now. If Jon is a Targ, he cannot die. When he comes back to life from this attack, that could be when Azor Ahai is "reborn", but Mel's prophecy's have been wrong almost EVERY time so far, so I don't know if I trust anything she see's in the fire.
Has Jon ever said whether his Valyrian Steel Bastard Sword was never quite as cold as the other normal steel swords? I seem to recall that somewhere... I can't remember where... but did he say it wasn't 'cold' to the touch or something? Like something like he was surprised when he touched the blade and his skin didn't peel away, because any other normal sword his skin would have stuck because it was so icy cold. Could that have been a clue that his sword is the real Lightbringer? Or am I just imagining things here.
The only thing missing from this whole theory is the Dragons. Though - they didn't really burn the horn of whatever it is, and perhaps that's a Dragon horn! Just wild guesses coming out here.
Also - about Bran. I kind of think it's cool his chapters, but what the fuck is the point of being a Greenseer - they can't DO anything but watch as everything passes by. What is the point of just watching? It's stupid. Bran isn't going to like just watching, and I bet that's what is going to happen in the end, he's going to become the most powerful Greenseer and change the past or some shit.
bonesmccoy
Banned
Regarding
Jon's death:
I don't think the letter was written by Ramsay. To me it stinks of a plot hatched by Marsh and the rest of Jon's council. Somehow they learned that Rayder wasn't dead, and used that nugget as the 'truth' Jon alludes to when he discusses the letter with Tormund.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
bonesmccoy said:
I don't see how that's possible.
The letter specifically mentions 'Reek'. How are Marsh and the others going to know about that? There's too much in that letter that no one who wasn't at Winterfell would have known about.
ZephyrFate
Banned
The
letter is written by Mance, guys. He's at Winterfell.
bonesmccoy
Banned
KuwabaraTheMan said:
Well...
If the plot was initiated by Melisandre then - it would explain Ser Patrek attacking, and getting killed by Wun Wun - she would have had knowledge of Mance, and possibly of Reek departing via her flames. Or, Ramsay did send a letter, and Jon's council intercepted it, and replaced it with something of their own creation, designed to force Jon to breach the NW's age-old tradition of not becoming involved with the affairs of the realm.
Why would Mance write that letter?
ColonialRaptor
Member
Dresden said:
But Mance was bound to Mel by the ruby on his wrist, it kept him under her control and he couldn't disobey her because of it, so I don't think he's deliberately being deceitful.
I think the Letter is just what it is. I think Ramsay is just scared because he lost Jeyne, if he really defeated Stannis he would have had her back considering we saw that Theon, Asha and Jeyne got dropped at Stannis the last time we saw them. That's how we KNOW that his comments about having Stannis's head on a spike are false.
But it's obvious that Abel was Mance and Ramsay must have made him talk some how... I'm surprised that Mance talked though... perhaps one of the Spearwives were the ones to spill their guts to him and not Mance himself while they were being flayed... that's what I would bet on personally.
I think the Letter is just what it is. I think Ramsay is just scared because he lost Jeyne, if he really defeated Stannis he would have had her back considering we saw that Theon, Asha and Jeyne got dropped at Stannis the last time we saw them. That's how we KNOW that his comments about having Stannis's head on a spike are false.
But it's obvious that Abel was Mance and Ramsay must have made him talk some how... I'm surprised that Mance talked though... perhaps one of the Spearwives were the ones to spill their guts to him and not Mance himself while they were being flayed... that's what I would bet on personally.
Discotheque
Banned
I take back everything I said about this book earlier. The first half (and AFFC) was reaching wheel of time status of delaying things for too long.
But then the second half of this book...holy shit. I breezed through it even faster than I had the first 3 books in the series. So much happens
Jon's last chapter thoughts:
Daenerys
But then the second half of this book...holy shit. I breezed through it even faster than I had the first 3 books in the series. So much happens
Jon's last chapter thoughts:
okay wow rallying the troops, bastard vs bastard. Officially the most badass character in the series now, chapters ending soon....WHAT THE FUCK!? WHAT THE FUCK! WHAT THE FUCK?!!! The nights watch are treacherous dogs. Is it any wonder now with Mormont killed and now an attempt (successful or not?) on commander snow
Daenerys
All those Mufasa lion king in the cloud moments she's having is pointing to her going to Westeros finally. About fucking time, most useless and stupid character in the series now since she has the means, the men and the dragons but she wants to be a slave-mom instead. And it's a shame because she has some awesome companions. I'd love to see people like the Shavepate and Belwas go to the happening side of the ocean with Mormont, Tyrion and Selmy's return home as well. Well I hope the ghosts have convinced her otherwise, go to Westeros already! Oh God-damn, a khalasar arrives. Her and that dragon better kill them all in the first few pages of her next chapter in 2016. If she gets kidnapped and suffers a lengthy captivity then just kill her off. Team young Griff/Rhaegar
Discotheque said:
After re-reading it, this seems like a classic Brienne-style GRRM way to make you think a character's dead. It also reminds me of the axe hitting Arya's head in ASOS, when it's really just the flat of the axe. My best guess is that the Wildlings managed to fight off the attackers in time to save Jon's life, although he will now be a cripple ("he didn't feel the fourth knife"). Jon is simply too important to the story and there's a consistent logic to who GRRM kills off and when--either they're a minor character, or he's been planning it for a long time and there are widespread implications to the death. Jon simply isn't that important and his death wouldn't be felt in the wider world. I'm not saying that the murder plot was illogical or anything like that (in fact, he kind of deserved to be relieved of duty--his leadership had been completely corrupted by his idealism and uncontrollable urges to get involved in the wars), I just think that he'll give Jon a better death than that.
It'll be very interesting to see how GRRM handles getting the dragons and Daenerys to Westeros, because taking them via ship is simply not a realistic option IMO barring Victarion coming to control the dragons via the magical horn. She'll have to tame them, which is where I think this is clearly headed.
She'll train Drogon up, come back and make some hell break loose in Meereen at a point of extreme danger, and FINALLY bring her army and dragons to Westeros, presumably to join up with Aegon and Jon Connington... If she can manage to get her whole force over to Westeros (Unsullied, sellswords, Tyrion, Daario, Dothraki, Brazen Beasts, Ser "Grandfather", Victarion, red priests, and DRAGONS)... wow. But inevitably GRRM will kill off some of these characters along the way.
She'll train Drogon up, come back and make some hell break loose in Meereen at a point of extreme danger, and FINALLY bring her army and dragons to Westeros, presumably to join up with Aegon and Jon Connington... If she can manage to get her whole force over to Westeros (Unsullied, sellswords, Tyrion, Daario, Dothraki, Brazen Beasts, Ser "Grandfather", Victarion, red priests, and DRAGONS)... wow. But inevitably GRRM will kill off some of these characters along the way.
I almost laughed out loud at this quote because while I agree with you... there's SO MUCH left unresolved.
OVERALL IMPRESSIONS OF ADWD:
I was trucking along, dying to find out what happened to Stannis, Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Asha, Bran, yada yada yada... and the pages started running out and I realized that a lot of plot lines would not be resolved. Those damn appendices fool me every time! *shakes fist at GRRM* I turned the page onto the first page of the epilogue, and was very bummed... although he ends it with a bang with the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle.
I was particularly bummed about not finding out what happened to Jaime, because he goes off with Brienne so early in the book, and he's clearly in MORTAL DANGER unless Brienne managed to escape on her own. I also have to say, I like the way GRRM handled the Stannis/Mance/Ramsay situation, creating all kinds of interesting possibilities and theories to keep us guessing until TWOW comes out.
I was particularly bummed about not finding out what happened to Jaime, because he goes off with Brienne so early in the book, and he's clearly in MORTAL DANGER unless Brienne managed to escape on her own. I also have to say, I like the way GRRM handled the Stannis/Mance/Ramsay situation, creating all kinds of interesting possibilities and theories to keep us guessing until TWOW comes out.
Overall, I loved ADWD... and I think it had its intended effect: I am absolutely DYING for TWOW to be released to find out what happens next. Well done, George.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
I thought I'd rush the book, but I ended up taking my time and just finished it yesterday.
Also I whipped this up just now:
The more spoiler-y caption I was debating on using:
It's interesting, but this book seems largely transitional in moving pieces into place. A lot of Northern intrigue, which I enjoyed. I think the Reek chapters were my favorite of the book.
I groaned over the fact that Arya cheated through her training. I know George needs to do it (unless he resorts to time-dashes) but still...
Penny was a little grating. It's like GRRM needs a niave character in every book. :\
Regarding the last Jon chapter, I had to read the final page again before his "death" finally hit me. But unlike Robb, his death was coming. If only he didn't openly break his vows in front of everyone, which seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Well, at least he'll come back as Ghost, or Azor Ahai reborn, or Rattleshirt II.
I groaned over the fact that Arya cheated through her training. I know George needs to do it (unless he resorts to time-dashes) but still...
Penny was a little grating. It's like GRRM needs a niave character in every book. :\
Regarding the last Jon chapter, I had to read the final page again before his "death" finally hit me. But unlike Robb, his death was coming. If only he didn't openly break his vows in front of everyone, which seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Well, at least he'll come back as Ghost, or Azor Ahai reborn, or Rattleshirt II.
Also I whipped this up just now:
The more spoiler-y caption I was debating on using:
Most of the Starks are dead.
ColonialRaptor
Member
fallengorn said:
You mean because she used her warg powers and saw through the eyes of a cat?
I think the chapter's timeline was meant to mean a lot of time had taken place either way, because the parts where she described doing this and that and this and that, and how much time she had spent doing things while blind means and awful lot of time had passed for her to learn all of those things while blind. Learning the entire layout of the House of the Many Faced God while blind would have taken months and months... seriously, she's been there for at least a year if not more. I don't know how long her training is to take overall but her two chapters seemed to advance the period of time for which she was involved at least six months from when we last heard from here, if not more.
I think the chapter's timeline was meant to mean a lot of time had taken place either way, because the parts where she described doing this and that and this and that, and how much time she had spent doing things while blind means and awful lot of time had passed for her to learn all of those things while blind. Learning the entire layout of the House of the Many Faced God while blind would have taken months and months... seriously, she's been there for at least a year if not more. I don't know how long her training is to take overall but her two chapters seemed to advance the period of time for which she was involved at least six months from when we last heard from here, if not more.
Fallengorn:
I think you're presuming a lot by assuming Jon is dead. That one absolutely screams "fake GRRM death" to me, a la Tyrion falling in the river, and Brienne being hanged, and Arya being hit with the axe, etc. I could be wrong, but there's no way that Jon's story ends like that.
Discotheque
Banned
yeah I'm not falling for it either, but it's nice to think that this is a 50/50 chance here. Keeps us on the edge of our seats for however many years the next book will take