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A Dance with Dragons |OT| - Read the rules or Melisandre casts magic missile

ZephyrFate said:
A good rule of thumb as a writer is to write for yourself first. If you write for the world, you're apt to catch pneumonia.

I disagree.You use your personal motivations, interests, and knowledge to guide your writing, but the ultimate goal is to ensure your audience is satisfied. Martin probably doesn't care about that as much as he used to because he's older and probably set when it comes to money, therefore he writes more for himself than he does his audience. ADWD is an incomplete book, its dominant plot lines were not resolved so people are understandably miffed about it. You don't wait 6 years for a book to release and expect to have more questions leaving it than you did going in.

PhoenixDark said:
To be fair, his editor pushed for one particularly "huge" event to be kept in ADWD instead of being moved to early TWOW; there were also two other big events that were moved similarly.

spoiler speculation, based on the end of TWOW:
I think the Stannis/Bolton battle was moved.

I think so too, and it's completely unjustifiable considering the wait time between books imo. It's also why I think George needs a new editor. Isn't she the same person he's had for the entirety of the series?
 

Veelk

Banned
LegendofJoe said:
I disagree.You use your personal motivations, interests, and knowledge to guide your writing, but the ultimate goal is to ensure your audience is satisfied. Martin probably doesn't care about that as much as he used to because he's older and probably set when it comes to money, therefore he writes more for himself than he does his audience. ADWD is an incomplete book, its dominant plot lines were not resolved so people are understandably miffed about it. You don't wait 6 years for a book to release and expect to have more questions leaving it than you did going in.
I don't mind, personally. This isn't the end of the series, there's plenty of time to get the unresolved questions resolved. In the meantime, we had plenty of other development, many of them concluded and few are as meaningless as some people would like to believe.
 

Dresden

Member
Anne Groell has been his editor from the beginning, yes.

At this point I think it's pretty likely that they pushed to get it out by July, and some chunks that just weren't ready yet (or that George might have been obsessing over) were cut to make that happen.
 
Dresden said:
Anne Groell has been his editor from the beginning, yes.

At this point I think it's pretty likely that they pushed to get it out by July, and some chunks that just weren't ready yet (or that George might have been obsessing over) were cut to make that happen.

Yeah she said something like the scenes that didn't make it would have taken him another year to finish.
 
LegendofJoe said:
I disagree.You use your personal motivations, interests, and knowledge to guide your writing, but the ultimate goal is to ensure your audience is satisfied. Martin probably doesn't care about that as much as he used to because he's older and probably set when it comes to money, therefore he writes more for himself than he does his audience. ADWD is an incomplete book, its dominant plot lines were not resolved so people are understandably miffed about it. You don't wait 6 years for a book to release and expect to have more questions leaving it than you did going in.



I think so too, and it's completely unjustifiable considering the wait time between books imo. It's also why I think George needs a new editor. Isn't she the same person he's had for the entirety of the series?
Well, there are people who were satisfied with ADWD, so I'd say he succeeded in that, yes?
 

BlueTsunami

there is joy in sucking dick
ZephyrFate said:
I think you missed the point of Dany's last chapter.
That was not 'wet shits'.

Hmmm, I had thought the two weren't related (she had the shits and then she bled). Not sure why that tripped me up.
 

Jintor

Member
I don't understand
Arya's assassination technique. Did she slip some kind of coin that gave the insurer a heart attack?
 
Jintor said:
I don't understand
Arya's assassination technique. Did she slip some kind of coin that gave the insurer a heart attack?

<Arya Spoiler>

The coin was poisoned and guy will be poisoned when he bites the coin to test it. Like Pate in the AFFC prologue.
 

RyanDG

Member
Jintor said:
I don't understand
Arya's assassination technique. Did she slip some kind of coin that gave the insurer a heart attack?

Yep. Coin was poisoned and the death looked like a heart attack.

Edit: Didn't see someone else covered this above here... Serves me right for leaving this thread open and not checking for new replies. ;)
 

jett

D-Member
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
<Arya Spoiler>

The coin was poisoned and guy will be poisoned when he bites the coin to test it. Like Pate in the AFFC prologue.

Man, AFFC and ADWD really shouldn't been edited into one book.
 

Piecake

Member
LegendofJoe said:
I disagree.You use your personal motivations, interests, and knowledge to guide your writing, but the ultimate goal is to ensure your audience is satisfied. Martin probably doesn't care about that as much as he used to because he's older and probably set when it comes to money, therefore he writes more for himself than he does his audience. ADWD is an incomplete book, its dominant plot lines were not resolved so people are understandably miffed about it. You don't wait 6 years for a book to release and expect to have more questions leaving it than you did going in.

Disagree. You should always write for yourself and trust in your own judgement and taste because if you think it is awesome, then there is a good chance that other people will love it as well. Trying to please the fans is the quickest way to ruin a series, imo.

As for the dominant plot lines not being resolved, I tend to disagree. Was everything resolved? No. Would I have liked to have more resolved? Of course,
specifically, I wanted Dany and Tyrion to meet at least.
I do think though that the dominant plot line did get resolved though
That being a thematic plot line. What constitutes good rule, what happens when people try to make the morally right choices in government, etc. I think that was resolved pretty well in Jon and Dany's story
 

LordCanti

Member
Jintor said:
That's brilliant. Goddamn. I didn't put the dots together.

I didn't either. I thought she
gave him one of those coins that the guy had given her (that she gave to a Bravosi ship captain and said "Valar Morghulis") and the shock of having been targeted by the faceless men had given him a heart attack. It didn't occur to me that she would have poisened him, because they didn't set up that she knew anything about poisoning...or did they...

Going through the link to a list of Easter eggs someone posted, I'm not sure I agree with all of them. Am I dense, or did they never
come out and say that Manderly fed the Frey's a pie with the meat of dead Frey's
as that site suggested? That would be hilariously awesome if true (except for Manderly
getting stabbed in the chins
but I don't remember picking up on that.
 
LordCanti said:
I didn't either. I thought she
gave him one of those coins that the guy had given her (that she gave to a Bravosi ship captain and said "Valar Morghulis") and the shock of having been targeted by the faceless men had given him a heart attack. It didn't occur to me that she would have poisened him, because they didn't set up that she knew anything about poisoning...or did they...

Going through the link to a list of Easter eggs someone posted, I'm not sure I agree with all of them. Am I dense, or did they never
come out and say that Manderly fed the Frey's a pie with the meat of dead Frey's
as that site suggested? That would be hilariously awesome if true (except for Manderly
getting stabbed in the chins
but I don't remember picking up on that.
Do you remember the Rat Cook from ASOS? That's how we know he did.
 

Piecake

Member
LordCanti said:
I didn't either. I thought she
gave him one of those coins that the guy had given her (that she gave to a Bravosi ship captain and said "Valar Morghulis") and the shock of having been targeted by the faceless men had given him a heart attack. It didn't occur to me that she would have poisened him, because they didn't set up that she knew anything about poisoning...or did they...

They did mention that. She mentions working with poisons with the waif, and how it was especially dangerous when she was blind
 

LordCanti

Member
Gonaria said:
They did mention that. She mentions working with poisons with the waif, and how it was especially dangerous when she was blind

You're right. I completely missed it.

ZephyrFate said:
Do you remember the Rat Cook from ASOS? That's how we know he did.

It's been a while since I last re-read ASOS. Please elaborate.
 

Ratrat

Member
LordCanti said:
Going through the link to a list of Easter eggs someone posted, I'm not sure I agree with all of them. Am I dense, or did they never
come out and say that Manderly fed the Frey's a pie with the meat of dead Frey's
as that site suggested? That would be hilariously awesome if true (except for Manderly
getting stabbed in the chins
but I don't remember picking up on that.
Where, where?
 

Piecake

Member
LordCanti said:
I still don't get it. How does that story confirm the later event? Does he mention that guy, or is a rat seen, or something?

3 freys went missing, he brought 'pork pies' to the banquet, and he requests the rat cook song and laughs.
 

LordCanti

Member
Gonaria said:
he requests the rat cook song and laughs.

Aah, got it. Thank you.

He just got a lot more awesome in my eyes. He'd have been more awesome if he brought his entire host North, but I guess that can wait till the next book.
 

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy

it's 4th of July in my asshole
Quick Q

Was the Bravosi banker around when they found out the Karstarks would betray Stannis and/or did they get the message at the mote/fort (where the remaining Ironmen where being held prisoner/ransomed) before the banker hired them and left to find Stannis?

I was expecting something to happen but that chapter ended quickly and there was no further follow up chapter in the book.

When Dany comes up on the Khalasar at the end, was that Khalasar the one chasing the other 2 mentioned earlier in the book.
 
I'll confess some stupidity. Across two novels, Feast and Dance, I've been reading the name of Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy like "Dam-Fair" rather than "Damp Hair," despite Martin being pretty literal in the nicknames for his characters. I nearly slapped my forehead when I finally saw how the word broke down.
 

Duki

Banned
adamsappel said:
I'll confess some stupidity. Across two novels, Feast and Dance, I've been reading the name of Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy like "Dam-Fair" rather than "Damp Hair," despite Martin being pretty literal in the nicknames for his characters. I nearly slapped my forehead when I finally saw how the word broke down.
wow

i didnt register it til you said this

just wow
 

Purkake4

Banned
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy said:
He is damn fair, he has flowing locks wound with seaweed and seashells. Gorgeous.
Looks like Rasputin to me...

Aeron_Greyjoy.jpg
 

Helmholtz

Member
adamsappel said:
I'll confess some stupidity. Across two novels, Feast and Dance, I've been reading the name of Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy like "Dam-Fair" rather than "Damp Hair," despite Martin being pretty literal in the nicknames for his characters. I nearly slapped my forehead when I finally saw how the word broke down.
Mind blown.
 

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy

it's 4th of July in my asshole
I thought one or two was fair enough but I think this is just gonna keep going with the ignorance of the moisture retained in the flowing locks of Aeron.
 
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy said:
Quick Q

Was the Bravosi banker around when they found out the Karstarks would betray Stannis and/or did they get the message at the mote/fort (where the remaining Ironmen where being held prisoner/ransomed) before the banker hired them and left to find Stannis?

I was expecting something to happen but that chapter ended quickly and there was no further follow up chapter in the book.

When Dany comes up on the Khalasar at the end, was that Khalasar the one chasing the other 2 mentioned earlier in the book.

Yea the banker was with Stannis when Theon and Jeyne arrived. His presence is another reason I tend to think Stannis is still alive, biding his time

If Stannis pulls off a stunning victory he's going to be sitting high. I really wonder what he'll do once he returns to the Wall and learns of Jon's injuries. Better yet, if Jon is healed and becomes AA, what becomes of Stannis?
 

Brian Fellows

Pete Carroll Owns Me
PhoenixDark said:
Yea the banker was with Stannis when Theon and Jeyne arrived. His presence is another reason I tend to think Stannis is still alive, biding his time

If Stannis pulls off a stunning victory he's going to be sitting high. I really wonder what he'll do once he returns to the Wall and learns of Jon's injuries. Better yet, if Jon is healed and becomes AA, what becomes of Stannis?


Stannis will get slaughtered by The Others and Mel will be all like "OOPS!".
 

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy

it's 4th of July in my asshole
PhoenixDark said:
Yea the banker was with Stannis when Theon and Jeyne arrived. His presence is another reason I tend to think Stannis is still alive, biding his time

If Stannis pulls off a stunning victory he's going to be sitting high. I really wonder what he'll do once he returns to the Wall and learns of Jon's injuries. Better yet, if Jon is healed and becomes AA, what becomes of Stannis?

Yeah. I'm leaning towards Stannis being forewarned of the Karstarks treachery. Pretty sure Manderly's forces will switch sides when the battle does occur.... if they hadn't already attacked the Frey's on the way to Stannis or vice versa.

Ruse Bolton knew the Manderly's and Frey's would end up killing each other and that's why he sent them out to fight Stannis, he didn't want a battle inside Winterfell's walls where the other houses would have sided with one or the other resulting in another Red Wedding. I was waiting for them to all be poisoned with Manderly willing to commit suicide to complete the job.

Hopefully Jon is still alive and not a Catelyn zombie, maybe more a Victarion Greyjoy healing. More interested to find out what the fall out would have been, there would have been a lot of Crows and Wildlings who would have started fighting after job was assassinated.
 
spoiler towards the end
So is Lord Manderly actually dead or was he just playing. I thought he would try to stay alive long enough for Davos to get back with Rickon but it seems like he purposely goaded the Freys into killing him. I think I'm missing something obvious (I also missed the Rat King thing)
sorry if its a nub question
 

BlueTsunami

there is joy in sucking dick
Advance_Alarm said:
spoiler towards the end
So is Lord Manderly actually dead or was he just playing. I thought he would try to stay alive long enough for Davos to get back with Rickon but it seems like he purposely goaded the Freys into killing him. I think I'm missing something obvious (I also missed the Rat King thing)
sorry if its a nub question

I believe he's still alive. The Frey cut into his neck but not all the way through. He states that next time he has such a chance he'll finish the job or something
 

yacobod

Banned
Advance_Alarm said:
spoiler towards the end
So is Lord Manderly actually dead or was he just playing. I thought he would try to stay alive long enough for Davos to get back with Rickon but it seems like he purposely goaded the Freys into killing him. I think I'm missing something obvious (I also missed the Rat King thing)
sorry if its a nub question

he's alive, i don't know where you read that he was dead, he was cut, but it only went through 3 out of his 4 chins. Manderly killed all the Freys that had guest right at White Harbor, after he gave them their farewell gifts that ended their guest rights. He then baked them into those pies and fed them to the Frey's and Bolton. Ice cold mother fucker. The north remembers (best line and chapter in the book).
 

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
Finished the book last night. Rather disappointed at the lack of closure, though the book itself was a very enjoyable read.

- FFFUUUU JOOOONNNNNN NNNNNOOOOOOOO
- I think Dany's no longer barren. Her story arc was rather disappointing, all things told.
- Barristan is awesome, and much more capable than he thinks he is, but I fear that he's too honorable for his own good. Honorable people get killed in this book series.
- Glad to see Cersei get humiliated like that, but I still think she got off easy. Hopefully she won't get to wriggle out of everything with the help of Zombie Gregor Clegane.
- I want very horrible things to the Boltons. And slightly less horrible things to the Freys.
- Poor Quentin. Tried so hard but was pretty much doomed to fail all along.
- Arya is awesome, as always. And when they were going to cut off her face they were like "this is going to hurt" but there was no mention of pain at all from her perspective. Totally badass.
 
Akuun said:
Finished the book last night. Rather disappointed at the lack of closure, though the book itself was a very enjoyable read.

- FFFUUUU JOOOONNNNNN NNNNNOOOOOOOO
- I think Dany's no longer barren. Her story arc was rather disappointing, all things told.
- Barristan is awesome, and much more capable than he thinks he is, but I fear that he's too honorable for his own good. Honorable people get killed in this book series.
- Glad to see Cersei get humiliated like that, but I still think she got off easy. Hopefully she won't get to wriggle out of everything with the help of Zombie Gregor Clegane.
- I want very horrible things to the Boltons. And slightly less horrible things to the Freys.
- Poor Quentin. Tried so hard but was pretty much doomed to fail all along.
- Arya is awesome, as always. And when they were going to cut off her face they were like "this is going to hurt" but there was no mention of pain at all from her perspective. Totally badass.
Full book spoilers
Actually there was mention of pain I'm pretty sure it said something like "blinding pain" or something.

If you mean when they actually cut her, then you're right yes, but apparently knife cuts don't hurt right away - what she said about it being warm is accurate as its warm as the blood spills.

It's like for example when Jon gets stabbed at the end, he just thinks that he got punched where infect he got stabbed. Shock is a bitch.

But I do agree Arya is a fucken badass, I can't wait for her to return to Westeros fully trained by the many faced priests, I really have no concept of what George intends for her character. Arya is definitely one of my favorites and I see her having a huge part to play in restoring house Stark.

I also just finished last night and I what happened to Jon, I was expecting it for ages, but I didn't expect his brothers to be the ones that did it. I agreed with most of what he was doing (bringing the wildlings to the other side of the wall), but he didn't take enough into account how much animosity the nights watch held towards the wildlings. He should have taken the time to explain his intentions to his men more explicitly, he left them not properly understanding. The ranging to Hardholm was pure madness, first thing I did not agree with. Total absolute madness.

Jon's greatest failure was trying to use the watch against the bastard of Bolton. What the fuck was he thinking!?!?!!! I read the letter from Ramsay like eight times and I see now that Abel was Mance, but I don't believe that the Boltons have defeated Stannis or he'd have Theon and Jeyne back, he only captured Mance during the escape and he was trying to goad Jon.

Who's perspective will we have from the Wall now? Who?? Melisendre I guess. Such a failure of a red priest, reads her fires wrong so much.

We all understand that Dany is Azor Ahai right? Therefore eventually she is going to have to come to the wall and fight the White Walkers. But if the Wall is magical and they can't pass the wall, I don't see the problem with just closing all but the nightfort gates and put all the guards there I suppose...

Who is going to keep the peace between the three thousand wildlings and nights watch now? Lets just hope that Melisendre can revive Jon and does, I don't imagine she will be happy that he's gone, though I felt he was starting to make stupid choices anyhow.

So much of the book revolved around Dany yet her chapters were sort of boring and meaningless until closer to the end, George could have compressed or cut out a lot of that crap I think, I get that he wanted to make her feel helpless and lost, but this whole Meereen shambles just doesn't seem right for me. Not enough Dragons. She was so fierce and strong and trecherous against astapor and yunkai'i but then lost her gonads while sitting in Meereen, I was a bit disappointed by it. I do know and hope that she meets Victarion because she damn well needs that horn.

It seems to me that Westeros is almost in ruins after this whole thing and anyone who claims the throne has a hell of a mess to climb out of. It's amazing how badly Cersei managed to fuck things up for herself, loved her chapters.

Epilogue - just wow!

Where do I see it going from here? I have no idea. Of course Dorne is going to join with Aegon, he is a child of Dorne afterall, there will be more war on Westeros but during winter, many will die and it will be a long winter and even more will die of starvation. I don't know if this is too simple a prediction but if this series can end with a "happily ever after" then Dany and Aegon should wed and become King and Quenn of Westeros and they would truly be the greatest two rulers the land has ever known I would say. The realm has too much ignored the plight of the Wall and I think they're going to suffer for it. If the others or Wights start spreading below the wall they're screwed! But the two dead in the cells haven't risen so perhaps Wights can't breed Wights... Dunno. Zombie Gregor Clegane is going to be very dangerous. Didn't Qyburn take the hand that was found by Ghost back from the wall and brought to Kings landing or am I just imagining it? Perhaps I am. Either way, he is a Wight and something really bad is bound to come of him. Will Khal Jhogo join Dany or try and kill her and Drogon? I don't know. Probably kill but it will be an awesome battle either way.

Oh, and I am really looking forward to seeing all these places and cultures on the TV show to see how similar they make them to my imagination. The Slavers Bay cities remind me of Egyptian and Middle East cultures, Pentos and Braavos is more like Rome and Greece, Westeros is obviously France and Britain, Volantis I can't quite picture properly. Qarth is like southern America / Inkas. Valyria bred Westeros and most other areas but I can't picture what Valyria must have been like either, different, dragon cultured, most like, more advanced, almost renaissance or a bit further level tech, but not tech because they used magic and sorcery. Wow that would have been an amazing civilization to behold. Either way none should be strict copies they should all have differences and mix and match bits and pieces from each other.

Damn... So it's all over and there is a huge wait for the next one hey. it's quite funny really but I think I'm going a bit cold on the series or something, maybe I'm burned out from reading this one too fast or something but at the moment I'm not in a rush for the next one... Though, I'm sure by the time it comes out in seven years I'll be dying for it.

Two books left right?
 
yacobod said:
he's alive, i don't know where you read that he was dead, he was cut, but it only went through 3 out of his 4 chins. Manderly killed all the Freys that had guest right at White Harbor, after he gave them their farewell gifts that ended their guest rights. He then baked them into those pies and fed them to the Frey's and Bolton. Ice cold mother fucker. The north remembers (best line and chapter in the book).
That's a assumption right? It doesn't say that anywhere specifically? Cause that actually makes sense wholly shit awesome haha!!

Edit - I read through the rest of the thread!

Wholly fucking shit!! Awesome as fuck!
 
Almost done with Dance, it just keeps getting better and better.

Reading slowly also helped make the experience more digestible and memorable: I blew through the first books way too quickly, in hindsight.
 
I bought this over at Borders yesterday. Got it for $25 the Hardcover edition. This makes me want all past four on hardcovers too. Still I wont be reading till a few months later since now im at a Clash of Kings. I love GRRM
 

bionic77

Member
Blue Ninja said:
Just finished it.

vJgzq.jpg


Son of a bitch.
The guy is a brilliant writer but yeah after finishing sometimes I wonder if this series is going to be the biggest troll of all times. We are 5 books in and I have no idea where the story is going and which characters are important.
Both the Lannisters and the Starks are dying like flies in this series and it is very dangerous to make any assumptions but they don't seem like they are going to be in this story at the end.

I get that he doesn't like for us to get comfortable but at a certain point he is going to have to set up or explain what this is all about. Still love all the stuff with Tyrion, Jon was somehow pretty boring in this book. The Bran stuff was really good. First time I liked his character, otherwise he just seemed like a daydreaming idiot. The Dany stuff.... Really only worth reading the last two chapters. Davos was a boss like always.

I hope we get an POV from the Clegane brothers in the next book and an epic showdown. Would be so sweet if the trial by combat for Cersei involved both brothers (preferably in zombie form).
 
bionic77 said:
I hope we get an POV from the Clegane brothers in the next book and an epic showdown. Would be so sweet if the trial by combat for Cersei involved both brothers (preferably in zombie form).
My prediction on this:

Sandor will be the church's representative in cersei's trial by combat (as a holy warrior), and will kill his brother, thus condemning cersei to death and fulfilling the "valonqar" prophecy (her death will come from the little brother...little brother being sandor in this case)
 

bionic77

Member
elrechazao said:
My prediction on this:

Sandor will be the church's representative in cersei's trial by combat (as a holy warrior), and will kill his brother, thus condemning cersei to death and fulfilling the "valonqar" prophecy (her death will come from the little brother...little brother being sandor in this case)

That seems very likely. But what happens if they both die? And since the Mountain is a zombie the only way to kill him now is to cut his head off, correct?
 
bionic77 said:
That seems very likely. But what happens if they both die? And since the Mountain is a zombie the only way to kill him now is to cut his head off, correct?
If they both die who knows. I would imagine it's "who dies first". Tyrion's trial by combat is really the only one we have, and gregor was alive for quite a while afterwards, even if he was basically dead at the end of that fight.

As for gregorstein, we have no idea how or if he can die. I vote holy power of the seven filling sandor's sword
 

iammeiam

Member
elrechazao said:
My prediction on this:

Sandor will be the church's representative in cersei's trial by combat (as a holy warrior), and will kill his brother, thus condemning cersei to death and fulfilling the "valonqar" prophecy (her death will come from the little brother...little brother being sandor in this case)

If we're fulfilling that set of prophecies, though,
Tommen and Myrcella both need to die before Cersei does, and I don't think her trial could be delayed long enough for both events to happen. I figure Robert the Strong prevails in this one, but will likely lose to his little brother in a future trial.
 
iammeiam said:
If we're fulfilling that set of prophecies, though,
Tommen and Myrcella both need to die before Cersei does, and I don't think her trial could be delayed long enough for both events to happen. I figure Robert the Strong prevails in this one, but will likely lose to his little brother in a future trial.
I doubt cersei will have two trials, but anything is possible.
 
elrechazao said:
My prediction on this:

Sandor will be the church's representative in cersei's trial by combat (as a holy warrior), and will kill his brother, thus condemning cersei to death and fulfilling the "valonqar" prophecy (her death will come from the little brother...little brother being sandor in this case)

Tommen and Mrycella have to die first though, meaning Cersei should be in power for a considerable amount of time; I think she'll prevail. Also when re-reading AFFC, Brienne sees the big lame man's face. If it was truly the Hound, wouldn't she recognize his burned face?

Cersei will be in power throughout TWOW; Varys has made certain of that.
 
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