John Kowalski
Banned
hi Paulina
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A German exchange student's account of "Trump Country" - in defense of rural USA
- Thread starter Fritz
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Again, can confirm this. I'm progressive as all hell and vote liberal and fight against inequality etc etc, but I still have trouble asking for help when I need it, even though I'm a disabled mom of three. Hell, when The Ronald McDonald house offered to put me up after my daughter was born two months early and had to be airvaced a state away, I declined because even though we were strapped, we could afford a hotel for a while and maybe that money could go to others.
It's incredibly hard to shake.
CountAntonius
Member
Keep them isolated, keep them ignorant, provide scapegoats they will probably never come in contact with to blame all their problems on and keep them believing you are doing everything you can to give them back a lifestyle which is long dead. This is how the Republicans stay in power.
Bingo. The damage the politicians and media on the right are doing to these people to maintain control over them is damaging, disgusting and criminal.
It's not a matter of 'dumb' as it is your second point. When there is no piece of information that challenges or shatters a world view, you become ingrained in the echo chamber. Sudden change is then met with fear and misunderstanding. Which is why it's so important that the act of economic segregation is not practiced in schools and communities, as it increases the likelihood of an environment that is "walled off" of radically different perspectives. Challenge the status quo and then people will need to learn how to work with a changing world.
A big difference is that the most rural areas of Germany are in th east and they are also very atheist. You will have a hard time finding climate change deniers or creationists even in rural Germany. Same with universal healthcare or same sex marriage opponents. But there will be very different opinions on immigration or the Green party for example.
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
Kinda further confirms my belief that much of today's right wing landscape falls at the feet of Fox News. These belief systems were already there but instead of the internet and television diversifying perspectives, right wing media accelerated the confirmation of their preexisting biases.
People are what they eat in a sense.
People are what they eat in a sense.
At first my thought was that I've been in Minnesota all my life and it really isn't as "country" as she describes, but then I remember outside Minneapolis most of the state is red, heck in Coon Rapids (yes I know, the name) a woman smashed a glass over a middle eastern woman for not speaking english.
And then I remember that a lot of people aren't fully open about backwards beliefs outside of a discussion that encourages it. I remember in high school most of my classmates were the nicest people (well, some) and differences only came up when religion came in to the discussion (race rarely came up), and people became emotional over disagreements. I remember being told to my face multiple times people disagree with my life choices when I came out...
But at the same time I wanted their approval. I liked them because they were friendly and fun and were just like me despite the backwards thoughts. And so discussion of anything "taboo" was ignored by me. I see some similarity in my school and social circle from my teens, and at the time it didn't seem like a big deal.
But I also realize that it was problematic, because I never felt like I could truly be myself and be accepted for it around them. So it becomes difficult to figure out when you should stop associating with someone or ignore their "opinions".
And then I remember that a lot of people aren't fully open about backwards beliefs outside of a discussion that encourages it. I remember in high school most of my classmates were the nicest people (well, some) and differences only came up when religion came in to the discussion (race rarely came up), and people became emotional over disagreements. I remember being told to my face multiple times people disagree with my life choices when I came out...
But at the same time I wanted their approval. I liked them because they were friendly and fun and were just like me despite the backwards thoughts. And so discussion of anything "taboo" was ignored by me. I see some similarity in my school and social circle from my teens, and at the time it didn't seem like a big deal.
But I also realize that it was problematic, because I never felt like I could truly be myself and be accepted for it around them. So it becomes difficult to figure out when you should stop associating with someone or ignore their "opinions".
tearsintherain
Member
Really interesting read, thanks.
Well that's enlightening, I can see social isolation of a community(of multiple communities), that created a sub-culture where those beliefs are the norm and create a dynamic of conformity that is hard to escape.
But if people think this doesn't exist in Europe too is dead wrong. For example in my country we see these patterns in the north of the country where villages centers around the catholic church and they're all as conservative as they get. Fortunately I live in the south and here the geography of the country allow for less isolation between populations and that permeates into a more left leaning society which balances the political spectrum
But if people think this doesn't exist in Europe too is dead wrong. For example in my country we see these patterns in the north of the country where villages centers around the catholic church and they're all as conservative as they get. Fortunately I live in the south and here the geography of the country allow for less isolation between populations and that permeates into a more left leaning society which balances the political spectrum
Vicetrailia
Banned
Sounds about right.
My wife is German, from east germany. The day after trump got elected immediately all of her friends and family emailed and texted asking for our opinions and wtf is going to happen in the future, sharing our perspectives with their colleagues and friends.
My wife is German, from east germany. The day after trump got elected immediately all of her friends and family emailed and texted asking for our opinions and wtf is going to happen in the future, sharing our perspectives with their colleagues and friends.
It's kinda telling that in the German example the far left and the far right are equally feeding on these demographics. Recent polls showed that a lot of voters have jumped from far left straight to far right.
How are churches organized in the US? Since protestant and catholic churches are organized centrally in Germany it seems to me they have been able to pull these rural areas together, at least in the west. Since atheism is widespread in the former socialist east these brackets are absent.
timetokill
Banned
LOL. Fascinating. Thanks dude
Are there any rural german rural cities where the evolution theory is a no go?
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Yep. I come from rural America. The right wing propaganda machine is effective, but it only reinforces existing biases and cultural prejudices that are centuries old.
The problem is that rural America has fallen so far behind intellectually, culturally, and in terms of education, that it's a matter of fractal wrongness. Everything is fucked down each level.
Beerman462
Member
I grew up in Iowa. My parents are very liberal, but some of my extended family is conservative at least on my mothers side. I didn't have a lot of contact with my fathers side, so maybe that's where it came from.
I came from a very small town of 1500 people and had a graduating class of 40. I see a mix of conservative and liberal views coming from people I grew up with on Facebook.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Sometimes cultured GAF forgets that most Americans do not go to college and with minorities making up 10%-20% (sometimes much less) in rural America, there are HUGE swaths of the American population who have never seen a person of color in the flesh.
People need to absorb that.
Examples
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=164076551
https://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnim..._fair_i_didnt_actually_see_a_black_person_in/
These people are thus completely subject to what they see in the media, on the news, in music and movies. Their ability to empathize is compromised at best. They are more inclined to fear and accept demonetization of groups. They are less inclined towards understanding, with little or no education covering those groups.
The defense part in the title was my addition obviously. I propably didn't think it through. You're all right. It's more like a plea for understanding
bengraven
Member
Minneapolis is a very gay-friendly city. I'm actually trying to convince a friend of ours down here in the rural south to move there with us someday so he can know what it's like not to be the one gay guy in his town.
That said, most of the time you get warnings not to go to Mall of America not for gay people, because black people. "Black people target white people, especially naive rural white people", it's said. "stay away from the Mall of Africa".
She's not saying their world view is right. She's saying "You have the benefit of being raised in a kinder more enlightened culture. You weren't born like this, however, but inducted into to it, just like they were inducted into hate. Dismissing them as idiots isn't going magically to reverse their upbringing, or the damage they can cause."
Don't think so but then again rural germany is probably a lot less religious.
Coming from a small village with 5k population in Rhineland palatine ...same as in Berlin.
PixelatedBookake
Junior Member
That's what I took away from it as well. But if they are living in an echo chamber, I don't know what can actually be done to change their minds if they have been taught from birth to believe such things.
No, surely not. We do have other issues this divide manifest itself through though.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
I grew up in such an environment. Bush could do no wrong. Fox News the majority of the time. Racism and homophobic remarks/mentality flying every which way. It didn't take me long to rail against it. (it's shocking just how blue Maine has been though... Until Trump).
I literally forgot she existed
I think you're missing the main point. Even if you have access to the information and are capable of forming a different point of view, you're ostracized for doing so, shouted down, and the echo chamber is preserved.
Kinda of reminds me of pre-election GAF political threads....
Technosteve
Banned
This is the definition of Minnesota Nice
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
These people spend so much energy worrying about radical Muslims they fail to see the radicalization of white communities will do far more to damage the country.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I find this informative.
Over the last few days we've talked a lot about how Trump heralds the rise of the alt-right, anti-establishment politics, a re-assertion of nationalism and white identity, etc etc. There's the feeling that some entirely new rightward movement has swept the country out of nowhere.
Before we fall over ourselves rushing to confirm the worst of our fears, let's remember that there have always been large swaths of brainwashed Fox News dummies who'd vote for any idiot in a red tie who says he won't murder babies.
Maybe it's not a brand new movement. It's just Reagan's voters, again. It's George W's voters, again.
Over the last few days we've talked a lot about how Trump heralds the rise of the alt-right, anti-establishment politics, a re-assertion of nationalism and white identity, etc etc. There's the feeling that some entirely new rightward movement has swept the country out of nowhere.
Before we fall over ourselves rushing to confirm the worst of our fears, let's remember that there have always been large swaths of brainwashed Fox News dummies who'd vote for any idiot in a red tie who says he won't murder babies.
Maybe it's not a brand new movement. It's just Reagan's voters, again. It's George W's voters, again.
The same story everywhere. Ignorance and arrogance used as a crutch to justify being terrible.
The greatest irony of the "bootstraps" mentality is that if the goal was really self-improvement via hard work, they would already understand. But it's really just a way of presenting ableism comfortably to people, much like how school segregation and its inherent racism is presented comfortably via charter schools.
The greatest irony of the "bootstraps" mentality is that if the goal was really self-improvement via hard work, they would already understand. But it's really just a way of presenting ableism comfortably to people, much like how school segregation and its inherent racism is presented comfortably via charter schools.
What they read just perpetuates the same thing. They're not going to order the fucking New York Times out in rural Minneapolis. The internet? Sure, for that golden period when the internet was the refuge of liberal progressives (90s-00s). Now? Alt right Twitter. r/The_Donald. Facebook, which, incidentally, is all the people you already know peddling the viewpoints they were already peddling.
gutter_trash
Banned
Well said.
Kings in the old days thrived on keeping the general populace uneducated and uninformed.
GOP doing the same
Muppet of a Man
Member
I don't give a shit about the insular perspective from rural America, and I'm certainly not empathetic towards it. I certainly understand how these people become the way they are, just like young people in desolate places like Afghanistan become part of the Taliban or other radicalized terrorist groups: extreme fundamentalist religion in combination with cultural isolation.
That doesn't change that these people are hateful pieces of shit and should be treated as such. They are not the real America. They are the spoiling left overs of the confedrate south from the civil war.
There are effectively 2 countries in this country that will never be able to reconcile because one lives in reality while the other does not. It very well one day come down to another civil war (or at least prolonged civil unrest).
That doesn't change that these people are hateful pieces of shit and should be treated as such. They are not the real America. They are the spoiling left overs of the confedrate south from the civil war.
There are effectively 2 countries in this country that will never be able to reconcile because one lives in reality while the other does not. It very well one day come down to another civil war (or at least prolonged civil unrest).
Chairmanchuck
Member
Wouldnt say so. You might have like a few families in Germany like that, but whole cities not.
Though we have a lot of small cities, mostly in eastern europe, that are mostly far-right. Uneducated people shouting "dey teek er jebs", while they actually dont even want to work getting aspargus out of the ground (like eastern europeans do in Germany) or dont wanna clean toilets, even though they dont have any qualifications.
old
Member
Great thread. Great read.
I was raised in that same environment. She describes it rather accurately. There were 2 blacks and 2 asians in my high school. The rest were white and had a church they went to. Good people fundamentally but they were raised to see different people as "others" and raised to see big city whites as "liberal elites". A lot of it coming from talk radio, Fox News, and pastors/ministers/priests.
I was raised in that same environment. She describes it rather accurately. There were 2 blacks and 2 asians in my high school. The rest were white and had a church they went to. Good people fundamentally but they were raised to see different people as "others" and raised to see big city whites as "liberal elites". A lot of it coming from talk radio, Fox News, and pastors/ministers/priests.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
You have those people, the old guard(like, putting up a massive homemade sign after Trump won about him saving all the unborn babies. SEEN IT.) and then you have the "gamergate" types ushering in a fresh new brand of craziness.
Absolutely fascinating.
I think the big take away here is that it's foolish and unreasonable to demonise people for being raised in a culture of ignorance and superstition. These people aren't evil bigots screaming for blood; they're ignorant bigots who hate and fear because they were taught to hate and fear.
The enemy of progress in the US isn't malice on the part of the vast majority of Americans who voted for Trump; it's ignorance. It's the lack of exposure to different people and points of view outside of the aggressively superstitious, racially homogenous, conservative culture in which they've been raised for generations.
That's a good thing. The problem is less about the extremists who want to make America white again, and more about the people who have only been exposed to Muslims via Fox News. Opposing the people who intentionally manipulate these voters is the important thing. Vitriol aimed at these people is not just foolish, it's unreasonable.
I'm aware of how condescending this post sounds. Not all people who voted Trump did so for the reasons discussed in the article. I'm speaking strictly about those who did. As patronising as my post sounds, it's accurate based on the shared opinions and values discussed in the OP. If someone thinks Obama is like Hitler because he wants to give all people healthcare; and believes that the poor don't deserve help because they're lazy while professing to be Christian; and that Muslims in shopping malls are to be feared; then that person is ignorant by definition. Who knows how they would vote if disabused of these notions? We can only judge their ethics and characters accurately when they're operating outside the cocoon of objectively verifiable lies and misconceptions.
I think the big take away here is that it's foolish and unreasonable to demonise people for being raised in a culture of ignorance and superstition. These people aren't evil bigots screaming for blood; they're ignorant bigots who hate and fear because they were taught to hate and fear.
The enemy of progress in the US isn't malice on the part of the vast majority of Americans who voted for Trump; it's ignorance. It's the lack of exposure to different people and points of view outside of the aggressively superstitious, racially homogenous, conservative culture in which they've been raised for generations.
That's a good thing. The problem is less about the extremists who want to make America white again, and more about the people who have only been exposed to Muslims via Fox News. Opposing the people who intentionally manipulate these voters is the important thing. Vitriol aimed at these people is not just foolish, it's unreasonable.
I'm aware of how condescending this post sounds. Not all people who voted Trump did so for the reasons discussed in the article. I'm speaking strictly about those who did. As patronising as my post sounds, it's accurate based on the shared opinions and values discussed in the OP. If someone thinks Obama is like Hitler because he wants to give all people healthcare; and believes that the poor don't deserve help because they're lazy while professing to be Christian; and that Muslims in shopping malls are to be feared; then that person is ignorant by definition. Who knows how they would vote if disabused of these notions? We can only judge their ethics and characters accurately when they're operating outside the cocoon of objectively verifiable lies and misconceptions.
Thank you for the translation Fritz, it was a very interesting read.
What I find fascinating is that we have this extreme of an echo chamber with 'Obama being Hitler' and some of these people never having met immigrants from other countries and on the other hand we have those who still voted for Trump despite living in, say, Los Angeles or New York. From what I've seen here in California these people generally do still have that 'echo chamber' because their family is Republican or all their Church friends are the same way, but it's not like they aren't talking or meeting immigrants on a daily basis and aren't presented with differing opinions like those from this small town.
I'm wondering how you change this. It's not like you could walk in to the town and start changing everything, they don't strike me as the kind of people who would be welcoming of this.
What I find fascinating is that we have this extreme of an echo chamber with 'Obama being Hitler' and some of these people never having met immigrants from other countries and on the other hand we have those who still voted for Trump despite living in, say, Los Angeles or New York. From what I've seen here in California these people generally do still have that 'echo chamber' because their family is Republican or all their Church friends are the same way, but it's not like they aren't talking or meeting immigrants on a daily basis and aren't presented with differing opinions like those from this small town.
I'm wondering how you change this. It's not like you could walk in to the town and start changing everything, they don't strike me as the kind of people who would be welcoming of this.
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