remember_spinal
Banned
Very smart move to do it now while Microsofts hands are tied with them talking up pro-unionization to get the Activision deal to pass.
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A minority of Zenimax/Bethesda employees are voting to unionize
- Thread starter remember_spinal
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Dick Jones
Gold Member
Whether you agree with a union or not, the option should be there for employees to decide whether they want to join or not. It is a necessary evil
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Good. Given how political Microsoft is, I’m sure they love the idea of socialism in the workforce
ChuckeRearmed
Member
You are saying as if this move was kinda unexpected for Microsoft
With all the announcements and CWA staments related to unionization and ABK, stuff like this is exactly the same type of PR win for Microsoft.In the first place, unionization happens among the most low paid workers and thus for companies like Microsoft where most of its staff in the mothership is well paid anyway, unions are not the threat as you can't make people unionize if they are content with their work. For companies like Amazon, unions are the problem.
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64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
unionization for the win. fuck corporations!!
ResilientBanana
Member
Yeah, Sony's studios should do it too.
You realize you're cheering for more expensive games and consoles, right? Not to mention, this will just lead to mass layoffs.
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ZehDon
Gold Member
Excellent news, and great timing. Activision Blizzard's staff are moving to unionise in the wake of accusations of poor treatment and sexual harrassement. To keep regulators happy, Microsoft needs to stay neutral there. If they try and union bust with Bethesda, it will likely have an impact on regulators receptions.
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
Is this good or bad? Any other game studios that have unionized?
It's not a matter of agreeing. The only way for the worker to impose himself on the employer is to unionize.
It is true that some union members usurp their function for their own benefit, but that is no excuse for not pursuing unionization.
GHG
Gold Member
The answer to that question will depend on where your beliefs fall on the capitalism/socialism scale.
Haint
Member
It means people already making $150k+ a year with nap corners and juice bars will get to work even less, adding extra years to development and will speed run $80 games.
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TransTrender
Gold Member
Sounds like 300 people are going to get shifted over to Fallout 76 development.
kiphalfton
Member
Wish more companies had unions.
Being all by your lonesome, versus the company, is no bueno.
But these same companies will tell you "unions" are evil... but only because they don't want to surrender ANY power whatsoever and want to keep giving their employees the shaft.
Being all by your lonesome, versus the company, is no bueno.
But these same companies will tell you "unions" are evil... but only because they don't want to surrender ANY power whatsoever and want to keep giving their employees the shaft.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
I dunno. I need a Hoeg video about it.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Microsoft will just stop hiring union employees and go for contract hires instead
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Unions are socialism? Ok, McCarthy.
I think it's great that these people want to unionize and it'll probably help ease the unpaid OT and crunch that has.become prevalent, but I do worry it will deepen the already bad two-tier system between contractors and full employees, and make companies rely more heavily on the former.
crazepharmacist
Member
What’s the unions incentive to do anything? Once a union is formed, every employee has to join and pay dues or quit. There is no other option. If the union collects mandatory dues on condition of employment, what’s stopping them from doing absolutely nothing.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
They already do this. It's a huge reason why Halo Infinite had a troubled dev cycle.
We literally just had Microsoft increase game prices to $70 just today. Was it because of unions?
And no, it wont result in mass layoffs. They need to ship games and thanks to gamepass need to continue to ship games. Workers have leverage and if they unionize, we wouldve solved the major problem of mass layoffs after shipping games. Now, they will make sure those devs and QA people have something to do. You cant just use people for a year and lay them off. thats fucking ridiculous. Have another game lined up for them to do testing and bug fixing instead. If anything, this will result in more games and fewer 5 year gaps between games as studios will be forced to have multiple games in development at all times.
Nvidia, Microsoft, Sony, are all posting record profits. No unions and they already increased the price of their games and consoles. Why? Because they need to continue to show growth to their shareholders or a $40 billion profit might be considered a poor year. It's stupid. Id rather devs and especially QA who get paid a third of what devs make get some job security. QA is more important than ever nowadays with games shipping broken as fuck. This is designed to help them.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Microsoft gotta hire some union busters to break some kneecaps.
Torrent of Pork
Banned
I've had personal bad experiences with unions, but those are anecdotes which are neither here nor there. I'm neutral about this, so long as the games keep coming out at the same pace.
Another anecdote time, I make $65k, my ultimate boss makes about $10k more than I do, and I'd have to take a significant pay cut for years to get into management. My company is all non-union.
Another anecdote time, I make $65k, my ultimate boss makes about $10k more than I do, and I'd have to take a significant pay cut for years to get into management. My company is all non-union.
DaleinCalgary
Gold Member
I'd fire them all
ChorizoPicozo
Member
Oh, do I sniff, sniff, sniff some kind of condition regarding unions now?
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
It's more about job security. Game companies are notorious for cyclical hiring and firing to accommodate the different needs of different stages of production cycles, and it's hard on people who work in the industry.
Of course they'll just use contractors to get around this. 343 is already pretty infamous for doing this already.
The game industry burns a lot of people out, and there's a hidden cost to poor employee retention, to not being able to keep you're experienced people and having to train up new ones. I think it's a problem that needs solving. Unions can help but there's more to fixing it I think.
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
Good, if you can unionize do it. I know Phil was supportive of Raven software...I wonder how will he respond to this. Some of y'all be buying into that anti union propaganda corporations spend billions to keep up.
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ReBurn
Gold Member
They were headed that way anyway. This maybe slows down the inevitable. People in QA, particlarly manual testers, should just go back to school now.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Its a joke, it really is.
1. The business is internationalized, so they can take their labour from anywhere including places where unions have no jurisdiction and are inevitably under whatever employment law exists.
2. Who exactly is getting unionized? Not everyone who works for a developer has anything like the same role and responsibility. Its why in older media unions exist for specific positions like writers/director's guilds, actor's unions, technicians unions, exhibitor's unions etc. The point is you might get everybody within a qa department to sign up, but what about the key staff? People who thanks to their skills have much more flexible career options globally?
3. Union power is predicated on the ability to withdraw labour until acceptable conditions are met. Who in the games industry has that sort of leverage? If QA goes out on strike they are just going to dispatch builds to other sites, likely on another continent. You think staff on a multi-year project are going to derail their careers* to show solidarity for people working on low-level jobs or on short-term contracts? Don't think so!
Its pointless and toothless, and its getting coverage only because its sits well with ideologues in the press.
*By which I mean going out on strike and delaying a huge project is not going to endear them to future employers whether they'll admit to it or not. In this business you're only as good as your last project. Its why people put up with hideous crunch, because in the end output (either directly or by association) is what you're judged on.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I hope it works out for them.
Unions as a concept aren't socialism. Like, at all. It's still a structure operating amidst the framework of capitalism. The workers don't own shit, union or nor non-union.
Unions as a concept aren't socialism. Like, at all. It's still a structure operating amidst the framework of capitalism. The workers don't own shit, union or nor non-union.
ResilientBanana
Member
Workers will want more money, to increase the cost of the already increasing costs of game development. This year, they will be raised to $70, after the unionization of their employees, the next increase will come. Don't think so shortsightedly.
Secondly, if you think those record profits will stay after the workers unionize, you've got something coming to you. Automotive companies already have done this and needed a bailout. So good luck to the tech sector if this becomes the norm.
SteelCurtain 59
Member
Whether you think unions are good or bad, calling them socialism is definitely a take
LegendOfKage
Member
What's that expression? Put your money where your mouth is?
This is what happens to all outfits that go Union whent he company has had enough "union shit".
They make sure that if you're there you'll never get enough hours to join the union.
Unions were great in their hayday, now they're the biggest fucking racket to launder money in the world. Teamsters is a union OWNED by the mafia.
The people that make money in a Union are the big wigs that sit on their fucking asses and gather up grievances that they can never do anything with.
That's the other thing with a Union, you get to file grivances, but you can't be too hard on fellow "brothers or sisters" and usually get talked out of it, or if you do file it, it'll take half a year to FULL YEAR, for that grivance to get resolved, if it's major you'll probably end up quiting before it's vindicated.
These game dev kidults are being brainwashed by the people that are going to make all the money in these unions and they won't learn how naive they were before it's too late.
Unions did incredible work in the early days and stuff when there was no safety for workers and companies didn't understand how to deal with a union. Now companies know all the loopholes and they ALWAYS utilze them to the max. Companies have specialists that know exactly how to fuck with a union in a completely legal way.
TL;CR(Too Long Can't Read): Unions are amazing on paper, but when reality hits of what it really means, you're losing a chunk of your paycheck for something that you'll never be able to get full use out of.
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RainblowDash
Gold Member
They need to do something different because the game quality has been garbo for years
TheDreadLord
Member
I’m yet to see unions solving any real issue for the employees… but good for the union leaders…. They will become wealthier.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Everyone needed a bailout. Wallstreet got $800 billion. Auto industry got $25. Wallstreet has unions?
And if companies will pass the cost on to their customers then fine by me. Id rather pay for a qa to keep his job than pay to give Jim Ryan a yahct with cocaine and hookers. And get better more quality games. Thank you.
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
I was asking whether this has been tried before with a game dev studio, and what the outcome was. Not for people’s speculation + caricatures.
I’m a software engineer myself and I feel like I’m paid well and treated fairly. Never felt like I had anything to gain from collective bargaining and frankly I don’t want to be lumped in with others. There are vast differences between engineers in terms of competence, work ethic, and overall productivity. I’m glad management has the freedom to make their own decisions regarding hiring, promotions, and compensation.
But that said I hear the game industry can be pretty brutal. Long hours and less pay than other industries. Maybe it makes sense there. Guess we’ll find out.
ResilientBanana
Member
Pelta88
Member
Under any other circumstance and as we've seen in the past attempts to unionize, this wouldn't go anywhere.
But Microsoft is on a multinational charm offensive. Doing anything but giving these employees their best wishes would be a bad look. Zen employees have picked their moment perfectly. Hopefully it becomes a trend.
But Microsoft is on a multinational charm offensive. Doing anything but giving these employees their best wishes would be a bad look. Zen employees have picked their moment perfectly. Hopefully it becomes a trend.
MarkMe2525
Gold Member
Good news, I like how people are attempting to spin this as anti-MS. Just wait until all that talent leaves your favorite studio and joines a union friendly studio owned by MS.
You sleeping through middle school level education doesn’t somehow equate to unions not solving real issues. Maybe you should try reading more than internet forums and Twitter.
What Made the Battle of Blair Mountain the Largest Labor Uprising in American History
Its legacy lives on today in the struggles faced by modern miners seeking workers' rights
www.smithsonianmag.com
Interestingly enough, Fallout 76‘s central premise is a fictional storyline involving the evolution of the same conflict in West Virginia… and then extended even further in the post-apocalyptic world with the exploiting class (raiders) vs the working class (settlers). Even more interesting is that it is a problem we will deal with soon enough in a post-working world when robots/AI can do the work that low-skilled labor used to do. What happens when you no longer need humans to do those jobs? What becomes of them?
A game by Bethesda Zenimax, no less. Heh.
Unions can be a problem. But so can a corporation. Being inherently anti-union while not being equally as vocal about corporations is just… weird. It reeks of bootlicker mentality.
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