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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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Incandenza
Banned
It's not in any of the books officially.
Thank Christ.... that makes me feel a lot better. =)
I will keep this in mind. This may be a dumb question, but... The recommended order is as follows:
Prologue: ADWD 1
Prologue: AFFC 1
The Prophet: AFFC 2
The Captain of Guards: AFFC 3
Cersei I: AFFC 4
Tyrion I: ADWD 2
The bolded I have already read, and I've read 1.5 chapters more, finishing the Brienne chapter and halfway through the Samwell chapter. If I go through with this, would you say I should start from the beginning and re-read what I've already read, or would I be okay reading the ADWD prologue and then jumping straight into the ADWD Tyrion chapter and following the recommended order from there?
I will keep this in mind. This may be a dumb question, but... The recommended order is as follows:
Prologue: ADWD 1
Prologue: AFFC 1
The Prophet: AFFC 2
The Captain of Guards: AFFC 3
Cersei I: AFFC 4
Tyrion I: ADWD 2
The bolded I have already read, and I've read 1.5 chapters more, finishing the Brienne chapter and halfway through the Samwell chapter. If I go through with this, would you say I should start from the beginning and re-read what I've already read, or would I be okay reading the ADWD prologue and then jumping straight into the ADWD Tyrion chapter and following the recommended order from there?
Basileus777
Member
Sean Bean basically confirmed it several years ago.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
Common sense confirmed it. His mother is a mystery, and Eddard Stark is obviously not his father.
He could be Brandon Starks bastard son even, and it could just be a massive red herring.
Basileus777
Member
He can't be Brandon Stark's son, not unless he's secretly a year older than he is claimed to be. And that would be massively hard to pull off with an infant, a year is an obvious difference that everyone would notice.
The timeline alone disqualifies most of the possibilities when it comes to his parentage. Jon was conceived mid-war.
Incandenza
Banned
You would be fine just reading the Dance stuff you skipped, I think. The only thing is that Ball of Beasts combines Samwell I from Feast with a Jon chapter from Dance that takes place simultaneously.
Thanks. Well shoot, you guys convinced me.
Zoso Achilles
Member
This was one of the only strange things from doing a combined read (boiled leather, at least). It was like reading the same chapter twice, back to back.
Reading the combined version of AFFC and ADWD is crazy because it's soooo super obvious the chapters were pretty much all written together, particularly at the beginning. Couple cases of a Cersei chapter from one ending with her brooding on Tyrion and then the Boiled Leather order cuts directly to a Tyrion chapter that immediately answer's Cersei's thought.
Incandenza
Banned
I took a look at the appendices and there's definitely some Feast spoilers in there.
Intent doesn't come across extremely well with just text and with some folks on here, it can be hard to tell.
In that same train of thought, I think my post came across more scathing than I meant it to be.
Although, to the compound word crowd - okay, yes, there are compound words but all the examples given were words that can only be read one way. But all the same, I'm proud of you for unlocking the mysteries of Martin's writing and immediately recognizing it as a compound word, you're very clever.
Can't speak as to general opinion, but I think it has a lot of interesting information and a really impressive collection of art. Unfortunately the "voice" that most of the book is written in (Maester so-and-so, who I assume is a stand-in for the fans who helped GRRM with the book) is a bad writer. I liked the Targaryen dynastic history but I had to break the sections on the individual Seven Kingdoms up into smaller chunks because it was too much and too dry to just plow through. But I do keep the book on hand as a reference work for the setting. Love the family trees in particular.
Basileus777
Member
The writing quality is really inconsistent and the seams of where someone else patched together GRRM's words with their own (or summarized them) are really evident.
Incandenza
Banned
Are you saying you guys didn't enjoy reading about such critical figures as Kermit and Elmo Tully?
Yeah, that thing's only worth it if you're a die-hard who's already spending hours on AWoIaF and other websites. Since I fall into that category I enjoy it as a big, pretty-looking reference that I can flip through when I want to check something. But don't go looking for too much entertainment value out of it.
Yeah, that thing's only worth it if you're a die-hard who's already spending hours on AWoIaF and other websites. Since I fall into that category I enjoy it as a big, pretty-looking reference that I can flip through when I want to check something. But don't go looking for too much entertainment value out of it.
Alright, so plenty of posters here had given me advice and helped answer questions of mine regarding Book 4 + Book 5. I decided to just stick with only reading Book 4. I took Book 5 on the train with me with the intention of following the Ball Of Beasts reading order and I psychologically couldn't get through it. I know it's irrational but it irritated the fuck out of me to not be able to look at the appendices (a poster mentioned the Book 5 appendices have some Book 4 spoilers).
When I first read the beginning of Book 4 a couple of weeks ago, I was constantly referring to Appendices to get my bearings on all the new characters in the first three chapters. Prologue started in Oldtown, with 5+ novices/acolytes all conversing with each other, so it helped to be able to refer to the Appendix. "Ah, so Alleras is the Sphynx, oh and yes, that guy is the acolyte and he has this particular forged chain, etc..." Ditto with the first chapter (with Aeron Damphair and the rest of the Ironmen) and the second chapter (with Doran, his captain of the guard, and all of the sand snakes).
So now I'm ~200+ pages into Book 4 and enjoying it very much - I'm sure reading Book 4/5 simultaneously is a more enriching experiencing, but that's not for me right now. I'll rationalize it like this: 1) Book 5 took 6 years to write - the original fans of this series read Book 4 back in 2005 and they survived just fine. I'm sure I'll survive too. And 2) I think I'm lucky enough that Book 6 will come out within 2 years, so most of the books will be fresh in my mind. But I'm sure that by the time Book 7 comes out many details will be lost in my memory, so when I inevitably re-read Book 1-6, I'll go ahead and read Books 4/5 using the order outlined in Ball Of Beasts.
When I first read the beginning of Book 4 a couple of weeks ago, I was constantly referring to Appendices to get my bearings on all the new characters in the first three chapters. Prologue started in Oldtown, with 5+ novices/acolytes all conversing with each other, so it helped to be able to refer to the Appendix. "Ah, so Alleras is the Sphynx, oh and yes, that guy is the acolyte and he has this particular forged chain, etc..." Ditto with the first chapter (with Aeron Damphair and the rest of the Ironmen) and the second chapter (with Doran, his captain of the guard, and all of the sand snakes).
So now I'm ~200+ pages into Book 4 and enjoying it very much - I'm sure reading Book 4/5 simultaneously is a more enriching experiencing, but that's not for me right now. I'll rationalize it like this: 1) Book 5 took 6 years to write - the original fans of this series read Book 4 back in 2005 and they survived just fine. I'm sure I'll survive too. And 2) I think I'm lucky enough that Book 6 will come out within 2 years, so most of the books will be fresh in my mind. But I'm sure that by the time Book 7 comes out many details will be lost in my memory, so when I inevitably re-read Book 1-6, I'll go ahead and read Books 4/5 using the order outlined in Ball Of Beasts.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Don't sweat it - most people here read them separately too and only experienced the combined version on a re-read. It's probably the best way to go about it too, since re-reading long books can be a bit of a slog, ime, even when they're books you really like, so the added novelty of A Ball of Beasts will be a boon when you go through the series again in a few years.
I don't know how much the DWD appendices are a big deal. I just flipped around and the only one that jumped out at me was
. And who gives a shit about that guy anyway?
There's reference to Margaery's
, too. Which is like, something that happens but definitely not a "spoiler".
But hey, you do you. Obviously most people read 4 and then 5 first time through and it wasn't so bad as to demolish our interest in the series. It's more that the split is a weird dumb choice than it is something you *must* correct by interleaving them.
Also the Iron Islands section of the appendix is so long. T_T RIP the dream of Ironborn in the show.
{Ser Arys Oakheart}, dead in Dorne
There's reference to Margaery's
alleged lovers
But hey, you do you. Obviously most people read 4 and then 5 first time through and it wasn't so bad as to demolish our interest in the series. It's more that the split is a weird dumb choice than it is something you *must* correct by interleaving them.
Also the Iron Islands section of the appendix is so long. T_T RIP the dream of Ironborn in the show.
Incandenza
Banned
They also mention
Cersei being imprisoned in the Great Sept
But yeah, if it's gonna be a hassle then you're not missing out on much of anything by reading them separate. They both good books, even separately.
badcrumble
Member
It provides some pretty interesting evidence that there was a second moon once and that its destruction was likely what led to the Long Night. It's only mostly okay as far as providing background and history on most things is concerned (since a lot of what's interesting has already been compiled from the books), but some of the information on Essos and Sothyros is pretty neat.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
I actually really liked him.
adamsappel
Member
Since I'm only on book 4, my ability to contribute in a meaningful way is not very significant - the best I can do is post drive-by comments like I'm about to do, because I'd rather not stick around for potential spoilers, lolz.
I'm about 350 pages into Book 4 right now, really enjoying it. I have thoughts on four different subjects:
1) I love how certain chapters have "character titles" instead of "character names" for the chapter title. For some of them, it takes a few sentences or paragraphs before you realize who the "character title" refers to. I.E. The Soiled Knight - I think it took a few pages before I realized it was Ser Arys Oakheart. And there was Captain Of The Guards (Hotah, spelling might not be right, Doran Martell's captain of guards), The Prophet (Aeron Damphair), etc... The Kraken's Daughter went without saying - I immediately knew it had to be Asha without reading a single word, heh.
2) Cercei is a huge fucking cunt. I just got past the chapter where in the span of a couple of pages, she 1) Declares that a few Freys should be hanged as punishment for the Red Wedding, to appease the commonfolk, and 2) Conspires to send 100 of her own sworn men to the Wall, in a covert effort to assasinate Jon Snow, and 3) Conspires with Osney Kettleblack to murder Maergery. I hate this woman. Jaime on the other hand has become one of my favourites. His character is quite multi-layered - he's not quite good, and not quite evil. He tried to have his men murder Eddard Stark and he successfully had his men murder Jory Cassel in Book One... But getting a glimpse into his mind has been very refreshing. His relationship with Brienne transformed him into someone I hated into a much more likable character.
Who was it that sent Brienne to look after the Stark girls in the show? Tyrion? What a fuck up if true. In the book it's Jaime that sends Brienne, and Jaime says "You'll defend Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own sword". That warmed my heart. Jaime is one part piece of shit but many parts honourable man, whose reputation is stained from having been forced to very justifably kill that piece of shit Aerys. The show missed a HUGE opportunity to turn Jaime into a lovable person - but instead they show him raping Cersei and they have Tyrion, not Jaime, enjoy the honour of orchestrating Brienne's mission.
3) I skipped about 100 pages ahead from where I was (I was too curious) and found out that Ser Arys Oakheart gets cut down trying to help Arianne crown Myrcella. WTF Doran Martell. Come on dude.
He imprisons the sand snakes and now this. =( =( =(
4) Another missed opportunity in the show is the focus on the roster of the Kingsguard. Does the show even have Ser Boros Blount? Ser Balon Swann? Ser Osmund Kettleblack? I asked my brother, and I told him not to spoil too much, if in the few Dorne scenes in Season 5 so far, have they shown Ser Arys Oakheart at all, and he said no. Is he wrong? My favourite chapter ever, BY FAR, has been the Jaime chapter in Book 3 where he sits down at the White Tower with the full Kingsguard roster (minus Oakheart who's in Dorne) and interviews them one by one. It's impossible to pull off a scene like that when people like Swann or Blount or Kettleblack are getting no face time.
I'm about 350 pages into Book 4 right now, really enjoying it. I have thoughts on four different subjects:
1) I love how certain chapters have "character titles" instead of "character names" for the chapter title. For some of them, it takes a few sentences or paragraphs before you realize who the "character title" refers to. I.E. The Soiled Knight - I think it took a few pages before I realized it was Ser Arys Oakheart. And there was Captain Of The Guards (Hotah, spelling might not be right, Doran Martell's captain of guards), The Prophet (Aeron Damphair), etc... The Kraken's Daughter went without saying - I immediately knew it had to be Asha without reading a single word, heh.
2) Cercei is a huge fucking cunt. I just got past the chapter where in the span of a couple of pages, she 1) Declares that a few Freys should be hanged as punishment for the Red Wedding, to appease the commonfolk, and 2) Conspires to send 100 of her own sworn men to the Wall, in a covert effort to assasinate Jon Snow, and 3) Conspires with Osney Kettleblack to murder Maergery. I hate this woman. Jaime on the other hand has become one of my favourites. His character is quite multi-layered - he's not quite good, and not quite evil. He tried to have his men murder Eddard Stark and he successfully had his men murder Jory Cassel in Book One... But getting a glimpse into his mind has been very refreshing. His relationship with Brienne transformed him into someone I hated into a much more likable character.
Who was it that sent Brienne to look after the Stark girls in the show? Tyrion? What a fuck up if true. In the book it's Jaime that sends Brienne, and Jaime says "You'll defend Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own sword". That warmed my heart. Jaime is one part piece of shit but many parts honourable man, whose reputation is stained from having been forced to very justifably kill that piece of shit Aerys. The show missed a HUGE opportunity to turn Jaime into a lovable person - but instead they show him raping Cersei and they have Tyrion, not Jaime, enjoy the honour of orchestrating Brienne's mission.
3) I skipped about 100 pages ahead from where I was (I was too curious) and found out that Ser Arys Oakheart gets cut down trying to help Arianne crown Myrcella. WTF Doran Martell. Come on dude.
He imprisons the sand snakes and now this. =( =( =(4) Another missed opportunity in the show is the focus on the roster of the Kingsguard. Does the show even have Ser Boros Blount? Ser Balon Swann? Ser Osmund Kettleblack? I asked my brother, and I told him not to spoil too much, if in the few Dorne scenes in Season 5 so far, have they shown Ser Arys Oakheart at all, and he said no. Is he wrong? My favourite chapter ever, BY FAR, has been the Jaime chapter in Book 3 where he sits down at the White Tower with the full Kingsguard roster (minus Oakheart who's in Dorne) and interviews them one by one. It's impossible to pull off a scene like that when people like Swann or Blount or Kettleblack are getting no face time.
bengraven
Member
The most important thing I learned about the world is that everyone, especially the women, were hot. Young Tytos and Tywin were hot, all the wives of every Targ were hot, all the Targ women were hot...
Since I'm only on book 4, my ability to contribute in a meaningful way is not very significant - the best I can do is post drive-by comments like I'm about to do, because I'd rather not stick around for potential spoilers, lolz.
I'm about 350 pages into Book 4 right now, really enjoying it. I have thoughts on four different subjects:
1) I love how certain chapters have "character titles" instead of "character names" for the chapter title. For some of them, it takes a few sentences or paragraphs before you realize who the "character title" refers to. I.E. The Soiled Knight - I think it took a few pages before I realized it was Ser Arys Oakheart. And there was Captain Of The Guards (Hotah, spelling might not be right, Doran Martell's captain of guards), The Prophet (Aeron Damphair), etc... The Kraken's Daughter went without saying - I immediately knew it had to be Asha without reading a single word, heh.
2) Cercei is a huge fucking cunt. I just got past the chapter where in the span of a couple of pages, she 1) Declares that a few Freys should be hanged as punishment for the Red Wedding, to appease the commonfolk, and 2) Conspires to send 100 of her own sworn men to the Wall, in a covert effort to assasinate Jon Snow, and 3) Conspires with Osney Kettleblack to murder Maergery. I hate this woman. Jaime on the other hand has become one of my favourites. His character is quite multi-layered - he's not quite good, and not quite evil. He tried to have his men murder Eddard Stark and he successfully had his men murder Jory Cassel in Book One... But getting a glimpse into his mind has been very refreshing. His relationship with Brienne transformed him into someone I hated into a much more likable character.
Who was it that sent Brienne to look after the Stark girls in the show? Tyrion? What a fuck up if true. In the book it's Jaime that sends Brienne, and Jaime says "You'll defend Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own sword". That warmed my heart. Jaime is one part piece of shit but many parts honourable man, whose reputation is stained from having been forced to very justifably kill that piece of shit Aerys. The show missed a HUGE opportunity to turn Jaime into a lovable person - but instead they show him raping Cersei and they have Tyrion, not Jaime, enjoy the honour of orchestrating Brienne's mission.
3) I skipped about 100 pages ahead from where I was (I was too curious) and found out that Ser Arys Oakheart gets cut down trying to help Arianne crown Myrcella. WTF Doran Martell. Come on dude.
4) Another missed opportunity in the show is the focus on the roster of the Kingsguard. Does the show even have Ser Boros Blount? Ser Balon Swann? Ser Osmund Kettleblack? I asked my brother, and I told him not to spoil too much, if in the few Dorne scenes in Season 5 so far, have they shown Ser Arys Oakheart at all, and he said no. Is he wrong? My favourite chapter ever, BY FAR, has been the Jaime chapter in Book 3 where he sits down at the White Tower with the full Kingsguard roster (minus Oakheart who's in Dorne) and interviews them one by one. It's impossible to pull off a scene like that when people like Swann or Blount or Kettleblack are getting no face time.
1) he says he does this because the characters change, but I wonder if he would have done it earlier if he thought about it.
2) Jaime in both the book and show.
3) Doran's
playing a long game.
4) Balon is mentioned but not seen. Other than Meryn Trant, the Kingsguard are basically faceless. Arys is in the first and second seasons according to the wiki...apparently.
Here's the best shot of him I could find:
Purple Cheeto
Member
I'm sure PhoenixDark and some nutter from Reddit will have a 10,000 word essay on why Quentyn was important and not just further wasted pages from Gurm.
Basileus777
Member
There is some point in the character, but not much in having him be a POV with multiple chapters. His last chapter is the only one that has any real point. Quentyn is mostly just another example of GRRM's self indulgence. He even has chapters which are thinly veiled ways to info dump on irrelevant mercenary companies.
Last Hearth
Member
The Quentyn chapters felt like "deleted scenes" you'd get on a Bluray. When you watch them you kinda like that they added extra background stuff to the story. But ultimately you completely understand why they were deleted for the theatrical release because taking them out would have had almost no impact on the plot and they actually create pacing problems for the movie.
Which is my way of saying that had GRRM cut those chapters out of ADWD, and included the proper conclusions of Battle of Ice/Battle of Fire instead. And then years later released another books where he threw out some "here are some of the extra chapters I wrote that never made it into the book" type of anthology book. I would have loved ADWD a ten times more and loved the Quentyn chapters a hundred time more than I do now.
As is though, I hate the Quentyn chapters because I feel like they are the reason I never got the proper ending to ADWD.
Which is my way of saying that had GRRM cut those chapters out of ADWD, and included the proper conclusions of Battle of Ice/Battle of Fire instead. And then years later released another books where he threw out some "here are some of the extra chapters I wrote that never made it into the book" type of anthology book. I would have loved ADWD a ten times more and loved the Quentyn chapters a hundred time more than I do now.
As is though, I hate the Quentyn chapters because I feel like they are the reason I never got the proper ending to ADWD.
Basileus777
Member
If Quentyn was the only thing wrong with the book, you might have had a point. Instead his chapters are just the easiest example of the larger problems with it.
I suppose you could argue that Quentyn's purpose is to emphasise the importance of Dany, as everyone in the world is basically trying to secure and alliance with her. And by introducing him as a rival to her other suitors it creates some suspense as to who is going to win her hand.
And of course he moves the plot along by doing the dumbest fucking thing imaginable.
But yeah, it's horribly handled. He never really feels like more than a dramatic device, which would be fine if he wasn't given so many PoV chapters.
And of course he moves the plot along by doing the dumbest fucking thing imaginable.
But yeah, it's horribly handled. He never really feels like more than a dramatic device, which would be fine if he wasn't given so many PoV chapters.
I hope this is the last I hear about the show in this thread, sorry to bring you into it specifically (and to bring it up again at all), but even if I mostly lurk here I am terrified of losing this thread. Loosing touch with the fan community is the true sting of the show sailing wildly into potential book spoiler territory.
But Kuraudo raises a good point, the race to get Danys hand in marriage did create some suspense, which I enjoyed a lot.
PhoenixDark
Banned
That suspense didn't really happen due to Quentyn arriving after Dany was already engaged, him not being handsome, and Dany childishly dismissing him mere minutes after his arrival. I wish Quentyn arrived earlier, and perhaps didn't have a POV. While I get the prince trope subversion, I still wish it was more interesting to read. Not saying the POV was horrible, just that the ending made it seem like little more than a plot device.
Why not have him arrive early in ADWD and be tasked with proving he was worthy of marrying Dany. By going on a campaign with Daario or working to find The Harpy. In fact I'd like to see the latter - Quentyn isn't a warrior, but as Doran's son he'd be more than fit to engage in some espionage and sort of be like Dany's master of whisperers.
That way after the final rejection he could be like "I helped reveal x, I did y, I advised you on z, and I offered you the full Dornish military and yet you reject me for this man you cannot trust. Fuck this." Way better than him chilling in court doing nothing...
Cornballer
Member
Probably. Feel free to use the show thread to talk about that if it interests you.
Nope. Please stick to book discussion here.
I see - so I was whinging for nothing, heh.
RobotChant
Member
GRRM will be in KC for ConQuesT 46 this weekend. He says he'll read a chapter from TWOW, but no confirmation on whether it'll be a new chapter or not.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/427974.html
http://grrm.livejournal.com/427974.html
You'd be the odd man out if you thought otherwise.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
I thought he said no more Cons until TWOW is finished?
"God's Beard!"
Member
Only one way to interpret this, then.
I think it was no more apart from the ones he agreed to do already, and maybe not including his 'core' cons he always goes to.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Nah. He cancelled a couple in the fall in order to give himself three months of interrupted writing time.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
It takes so damn long between books that I have pretty much completely forgotten everything but the major plot points. Reading the last couple pages of this thread and I barely remember some of the characters being talked about. Much like with Berserk, I wish I had waited until the story was done before starting. However, If I did that, I wouldn't have started reading the books until like 2070.
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