Or a terrible one. I do think Martin is a great writer though.ZephyrFate said:This is a sign of a fantastic author.
Or a terrible one. I do think Martin is a great writer though.ZephyrFate said:This is a sign of a fantastic author.
Eh? I don't see that as being out of character at all. Jon's clearly been wanting to do all of that stuff but there has always been something holding him back (a massive incoming Wildling attack, him thinking he can't betray the trust of his friends within days of them going through the trouble of getting him elected the Lord Commander etc). He just needed something to push him over the edge, and now he finally got an excuse that could, at least in theory, NOT be considered as deserting the Wall.Basileus777 said:I agree. What really bothered me about that chapter was how casual Jon was about essentially deserting the Watch. I know he's doing it to protect the Watch from the Boltons, but this is a guy who has been agonizing about his oaths for 4 books, to just get a letter and say ok I'm leaving was so sudden for such an important character moment. I would expect a ton of introspection and pathos to accompany that decision...instead it just kind of happened.
I can't defend Marsh though. All he did was incite the Wildlings to revolt. He'd have been smarter to let Jon leave and then call him a deserter.
Famassu said:Eh? I don't see that as being out of character at all. Jon's clearly been wanting to do all of that stuff but there has always been something holding him back (a massive incoming Wildling attack, him thinking he can't betray the trust of his friends within days of them going through the trouble of getting him elected the Lord Commander etc). He just needed something to push him over the edge, and now he finally got an excuse that could, at least in theory, NOT be considered as deserting the Wall.
It's not like he didn't already try to desert the wall once for his kin, and be tempted to do it again when he was with the wildlings. Didn't Maester Aemon talk about this in, like, the first book? About how someone might have the resolve to stay at the Wall the first time something like a war or lust for revenge is tempting one to leave the Wall, even the second and the third and the fourth, but then when the fifth or sixth time comes, he might leave.
Also, Jon had just as much invested with Stannis as Melisandre and the wildlings. He was the only (somewhat) powerful friend to Night's Watch and his (alleged) death was a huge blow for all of Jon's plans. He couldn't just let that slide together with the threats made to his life by Ramsay (and all that about her sister).
Jon's reaction may be (is) stupid and a mistake, but hey, it's not like all the characters in this series are flawless and not prone to do any mistakes/rash decisions... This was Jon's. The time for retrospection of the decisions he had done will come later if/when he's alive.
Jarmel said:If Jon ends up fucking dead, I'm going to be pissed. All the Starks have been killed by backstabbing assholes so far. Jesus fucking Christ. I wasn't even pissed about the Red Wedding but this has got my blood boiling. Jon did EVERYTHING right and he still got backstabbed.
If he didn't march on the Boltons, they would have marched on him.
Basileus777 said:What bothered me about that chapter was how casual Jon was about essentially deserting the Watch. I know he's doing it to protect the Watch from the Boltons, but this is a guy who has been agonizing about his oaths for 4 books, to just get a letter and say ok I'm leaving was so sudden for such an important character moment. I would expect a ton of introspection and pathos to accompany that decision...instead it just kind of happened.
I can't defend Marsh though. All he did was incite the Wildlings to revolt. He'd have been smarter to let Jon leave and then call him a deserter.
bunbun777 said:What I want to know is who's soul is in the black kitty that is messing with Tommen.
bengraven said:Also, what are the wildlings going to do without their only connection to the Watch, Snow? We're going to have an all out war ON the wall...in the end the wildlings will get that war on the crows...only not the way anyone expected.
bunbun777 said:What I want to know is who's soul is in the black kitty that is messing with Tommen.
bengraven said:This bothered me, too. I mean he stood up in front of everyone and said "I'm abandoning you for something personal". I do think someone should have arrested him though...held a trial...then killed him like they do deserters. I mean, going out like Mormont? Marsh better be glad Thorne will be the next LC because otherwise I can see a few Watchmen who would be sent to die in the ice cells.
Also, what are the wildlings going to do without their only connection to the Watch, Snow? We're going to have an all out war ON the wall...in the end the wildlings will get that war on the crows...only not the way anyone expected.
Jarmel said:Jon wasn't abandoning the Wall really. Again if he didn't assault Bolton, they would have assaulted the Wall in which case everyone would have been fucked.
Jarmel said:Jon wasn't abandoning the Wall really. Again if he didn't assault Bolton, they would have assaulted the Wall in which case everyone would have been fucked.
Also not really looking forward to Jon being reborn as a zombie.
Famassu said:And now they killed Kevan Lannister. Wtf is wrong with this book. ;__; He was one of the few likable and actually good Lannisters. Maybe a bit boring as a character, but he didn't deserve the end he got.
bengraven said:But really he was doing something against NW duties. Even if it wasn't to rescue "Arya" (and it totally was his intention), it would have been to save Stannis's men.
"The Watch does not worry itself with the affairs of the Realm".
He should have responded "thank you for your response Mr. Bolton, but we're busy up here defending you from the horrors that flap in the night. Now that we've opened a line of communication, can you send us 100 men to help defend the wall?"
Edit: damn your edit. ha I also don't want him a zombie like Cat. I also hope he doesn't find a new body after warging into Ghost, but I think that's what's going to happen.
I can almost guarantee the first chapter of his will be like:
"He can smell his brothers and sister far away...he is running between the trees with his pack: the one eyed brother, the slinking brother, and the fierce female. He has tasted man flesh. He keeps whispering "Snow" but that's not right..."
Famassu said:And now they killed Kevan Lannister. Wtf is wrong with this book. ;__; He was one of the few likable and actually good Lannisters. Maybe a bit boring as a character, but he didn't deserve the end he got.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:I was kind of thinking this as well at first as it would probably be the end of the Jon POV chapters. But if all the Azor Ahai shit works out for him, I think he'll be reborn relatively unscathed. Kill the boy and let the man be born.
Jarmel said:And you think Bolton would let that go? If what Jon thinks happened(Stannis being dead) then he sees no reason why Bolton would not march on the wall to kill the Night Watch who took Stannis's side in the war.
bengraven said:But the Watch isn't the type to take offensive when it regards the realm. Their job is North of the wall. They are free to do what they will above the wall, but below they have to follow that principle: "we do not get involved" which extends to "we take threats lightly".
Now if Bolton took the offensive, then the Wall could take the defensive. But not until then.
They're kind of like mopey Jedis.
Jarmel said:If Bolton took the offensive, the Watch would be royally fucked. That letter was essentially a declaration of war.
Jarmel said:The letter was definitely a bluff but one that Jon couldn't be aware of. We have the advantage of knowing where Reek and the fake Arya is and that Stannis is alive.
I seriously hope Marsh gets flayed for doing the 2nd stupidest thing in the entire series, the first being the death of Ned.
I do wonder if this was a way for Jon to get out of his vows. He didn't betray the Watch but they betrayed him. Also since he died, he now doesn't belong to the Watch. The problem is that I can't see him becoming King as a zombie. It would almost point to Jon permanently dying later in the series.
Jarmel said:The saddest chapter in the entire series was the Reek one where he mentions how fucked up Winterfell is now and the Bolton flags flying high over the place. I was almost ready to cry.
I was screaming "Fuck Yea" when Jon was going to march on Bolton. Atleast give someone some justice in this series.
If we get this far on HBO, this episode is going to break ALOT of hearts.
He read the letter he himself had read just moments before. While there were people on the Wall who didn't appreciate Stannis, there were plenty of those who did, and Winterfell had always been a friend of the Wall. To hear some crazy-as-fuck bastard claim the things he did in his letter, it's easy to see how many of them could have their own reasons to have their blood boiling and how they didn't get behind Jon just because of his feelings about the matter.bengraven said:This bothered me, too. I mean he stood up in front of everyone and said "I'm abandoning you for something personal".
bengraven said:Yeah, he's basically remembering that the best years of his childhood were there. That despite the constant reminder that he wasn't a Stark, he wanted to BE one of them. And they accepted him there.
It was sad to me, too. I hope Theon dies saving a Stark...or just doesn't die...that would be nice as well. But you know Cat is dying to hang him.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:One of my favorite reveals of the book is Cersei mentioning how Littlefinger tried to get himself betrothed to Sansa after Ned was arrested and Cersei shot him down.
Famassu said:He read the letter he himself had read just moments before. While there were people on the Wall who didn't appreciate Stannis, there were plenty of those who did, and Winterfell had always been a friend of the Wall. To hear some crazy-as-fuck bastard claim the things he did in his letter, it's easy to see how many of them could have their own reasons to have their blood boiling and how they didn't get behind Jon just because of his feelings about the matter.
Gambit said:It was a great chapter and it made me feel for Theon. Contrary to your hope, however, I wish him a death at the hands of a Stark. I want him to become himself again, possibly even on a path to redemption and then I want Bran's or Rickon's direwolf to rip him to pieces.
At best when he has vital information and is wanting to help the Starks or something.
Jarmel said:Just as good as the Viserys trying to sneak in Dany's room bit.
I was always wondering if the 998th Commander bit was a red herring, it appears it won't be. I will rage fucking HARD if Marsh is the new POV at the Wall. Will probably be Mel.
I just don't know how Jon coming back as a zombie will affect him personally(personality wise).
The dragons' wounds also smoked when they were stabbed...hmmmm.....Jarmel said:I do think he's coming back as Azor Ahai but in what condition?
Could his wounds have smoked because of how cold it was?
Jarmel said:I do think he's coming back as Azor Ahai but in what condition?
Could his wounds have smoked because of how cold it was?
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:I think Martin said there wouldn't be any new POVs after ADWD so we should be spared Marsh, but that could change. I'm 95% sure Jon will be back as a POV although we may see a few chapters titled "Ghost." But I'm not sure if he'll remain at the Wall. If he leaves then I'm pretty sure Melisandre will follow. Hmm I don't know who it would be. If he does add a new POV for the Wall please please please be Tormund.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:His mind should be fine, his body could be a different matter. Maybe he'll do the whole never sleeping again deal. Still, I think his resurrection, assuming he actually dies in the first place, will be different from any of the others we've seen.
I think the smoke was just from the cold, but we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully within about 3 years, you can do it George!
bengraven said:You know, Melony hasn't seen anything about Stannis in her flames for days. She keeps seeing Jon. I can see her following Jon, and possibly assuming Stannis is dead. That's probably why she bolted when Jon read the letter.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:I don't have the book in front of me (lent it to my sister, it'll be months before I see it again), but I'm kind of wondering on the timeline of when Mel arrived and left. If she left after Marsh and the others went off angry, it could be that she was going to prepare something for Jon.
Retro said:Random Prediction:
Brianne arrives at the end of Jamie's chapter claiming to have found 'the girl'. Brianne says "A day's ride. I will take you to her, ser... but you will need to come alone. Elseswise, the Hound will kill her."
The Hound is the silent gravedigger on the Quiet Island, free from the "Hound" persona and not really aware of who he is. Littlefinger arranges for Sansa and Harrold Hardyng to be married and the ceremony is to take place at said monastery. Hardyng would be coming from Runestone and Sansa from the Eryie; the Quiet island is almost the halfway point.
The Hound sees Sansa, remembers who he is, and starts butchering people as his personality shatters. Brianne is in the crowd because she either knows or suspects that Littlefinger's story about having a bastard daughter is a lie (and out of sorts for Littlefinger who would never admit to such). Her face wound may even be from the Hound himself (as she was being hung at the end of Feast).
It could end with a semi-insane and weakened Hound vs. Jamie with his left-handed swordsmanship, which sounds like a good fight to me.
yeah, thisezrarh said:Except Brienne was custody of Undead Cat and her men in her last chapter. It's more likely that she's forced to lure Jaime in alone for Cat and her men to do whatever they want to him. The girl and the Hound is just a fake story.
Random prediction indeed, wtf. The whole "I found her, the Hound has her" was clearly just a plot to get Jaime to that crazy bitch formerly known as Catelyn. I'm guessing Brienne either cracks and tells Jaime all about what he's walking into (and they (try to) escape) or she really does bring him there and there will be "The Hound" (someone is his armor) waiting for them (along with the rest of the gang & Zombie Cat).Retro said:Random Prediction:
Brianne arrives at the end of Jamie's chapter claiming to have found 'the girl'. Brianne says "A day's ride. I will take you to her, ser... but you will need to come alone. Elseswise, the Hound will kill her."
The Hound is the silent gravedigger on the Quiet Island, free from the "Hound" persona and not really aware of who he is. Littlefinger arranges for Sansa and Harrold Hardyng to be married and the ceremony is to take place at said monastery. Hardyng would be coming from Runestone and Sansa from the Eryie; the Quiet island is almost the halfway point.
The Hound sees Sansa, remembers who he is, and starts butchering people as his personality shatters. Brianne is in the crowd because she either knows or suspects that Littlefinger's story about having a bastard daughter is a lie (and out of sorts for Littlefinger who would never admit to such). Her face wound may even be from the Hound himself (as she was being hung at the end of Feast).
ngower said:Quick question:
I'm considering buying the four-pack set for $20, but from my understanding it's the mass market paperback editions. Can anyone that owns these let me know how legible the font size is? I'm not blind, but I definitely have a tough time reading that super small print. It's also obnoxious to hold a book that big open.
Just curious before I make the plunge.
Emerson said:- EDIT: oh holy fuck i just realized Mance was Abel.
I would look to get the hardcovers. More expensive, yes, but it reads so much better. I got a paperback of AGOT and replaced it with a hardcover pretty fast. The books are just too big to be comfortable reading as a paperback.ngower said:Quick question:
I'm considering buying the four-pack set for $20, but from my understanding it's the mass market paperback editions. Can anyone that owns these let me know how legible the font size is? I'm not blind, but I definitely have a tough time reading that super small print. It's also obnoxious to hold a book that big open.
Just curious before I make the plunge.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:It's decent sized. Not huge, but I would call it super small.
Abel is an anagram of Bael. Manse is down in those crypts somewhere.
sharbhund said:Has there been any speculation on what Tyrion knew about Plumm's relationship with the dragons? I haven't read the Hedge Knight series, so I don't know if it's revealed there that the Plumms are an offshoot of the Targaryens.