Hari Seldon
Member
Just finished Dragons. Not that impressed really. Needed a lot more plot movement.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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I think we'll look back on ADWD as being similar to ACOK: it's good enough on its own (while not perfect), but it wonderfully set up the mind-blowing events of the subsequent book.ultron87 said:
There's simply no way that lots of major, major events will not happen in TWOW.
I'm very curious as to how A Dream of Spring will function, though. I can see most of the major events being wrapped up by the halfway mark of that book, with the rest serving as a denouement.
ZephyrFate said:
Let's look at the problems facing the characters at the start of the book:
Jon: I'm Lord Commander now. I need to defend the wall and deal with this King that is all up in my business.
Tyrion: I'm on the run from Westeros for killing my father. I'm looking for Tysha, and (after two chapters) I want to get to Dany.
Dany: My rule in Mereen is in incredible danger from the Harpy on the inside and other cities about to attack on the outside. Daario is dreamy.
Bran: I'm off to the Three Eyed Crow to learn magic!
At the end of the book:
Jon: I vastly increased the Wall's defenses by incorporating our old enemies. That king got stuck in the snow and maybe lost a battle we didn't see? Aargh, knives.
Tyrion: I'm on the run from Westeros for killing my father. I'm looking for Tysha, and I want to get to Dany.
Dany: My rule in Mereen is in incredible danger from the Harpy on the inside and other cities encamped on the outside but I'm not there anymore and Barristan is in charge. Daario is dreamy. I can ride a dragon!
Bran: I made it to the Three Eyed Crow and can see through trees! I wasn't in the second half of the book.
Jon was the only one that really made significant progress in his situation and even a lot of that was due to the incredibly unsatisfactory way the situation with Stannis was "resolved".
If you did a similar comparison for the main PoVs in the other books you'd notice a much larger difference for pretty much every character.
Just finished Dance and loved every minute. Arya is just the most badass ever. I'm really interested to see what happens when she reenters the game as a super assassin.
Cersei just got fucking BRUTALIZED. I felt really bad by the end of her walk. Holy shit.
I hope Jon isn't dead. I like him a lot. I don't see how he could be though. He's the only POV at the Wall right now.
Cersei just got fucking BRUTALIZED. I felt really bad by the end of her walk. Holy shit.
I hope Jon isn't dead. I like him a lot. I don't see how he could be though. He's the only POV at the Wall right now.
I would have been pissed if arya's story was left untouched after how it ended in Feast. And Jaime's absence had to be explained somehow, and having him run off with Brienne made it all the more bitter for Cersi.
About the reviewer's comments on action v. revelation, I think I enjoy the periodic reveals of past events more than anything. And I was pretty disappointed in how little was actually said about Valaryia after that was hyped up by some writer before the book came out.
About the reviewer's comments on action v. revelation, I think I enjoy the periodic reveals of past events more than anything. And I was pretty disappointed in how little was actually said about Valaryia after that was hyped up by some writer before the book came out.
BamYouHaveAids
Member
Really? All she did was get ridiculed, and her narcissim knocked down a peg. She murdered dozens of children, tried to have her brother killed, had her husband killed, manipulated her other brother with sex (seriously enticing him to cripple a 8 year old girl?), is using her kids for her own means, sold a child into sex slavery, had dozens of dwarves murdered, tried to have Margery executed etc..and all she had to do was walk naked. She actually deserves the Theon treatment.Aselith said:
Why is everyone assuming Aegon is a fake dragon? Wasn't Dany warned of a mummer's dragon not necessarily a mummer dragon? The former implies a legit dragon that belongs to a mummer as opposed to a phoney. I just don't understand why Varys would lie to Kevan considering he already revealed his entire plan and the fact he was dying.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
So where is Rickon? Skagos?
I totally forgot Davos had POVs till someone mentioned him above, haha.
I totally forgot Davos had POVs till someone mentioned him above, haha.
Duane Cunningham
Member
BamYouHaveAids said:
Why you gotta call Bran a girl, though
BamYouHaveAids
Member
She got Robert drunk, fucked Jaime in the bed with Robert passed out on the floor and mid sex asked Jaime to hunt down Arya before anyone else could find her and cut off her hand for hitting Joffrey.Duane Cunningham said:
Arya's PoV only seem like filler because her story is completely isolated, but her story will eventually converge with the other characters. I personally love her PoVs.
Basileus777
Member
yacobod said:
I think it just exists in this book for timeline reasons and to have Jaime's disappearance in the epilogue make sense.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I agree that most of the plotlines didn't have a satisfactory end within the book, but this is not a standalone book. I don't mind that. A metric ton more stuff happened in this book over AFFC and had me riveted throughout, and there were sufficient surprises and turns to make it interesting, all within plausibility of the rules set up by Martin in earlier books.
And there are some resolutions:
While Dany isn't exactly resolved in this book, it seems pretty clear to me she knows not to try to keep the Queen of Mereen thing going.
Quentin, as I said, is resolved quite nicely.
Arya becomes a Faceless Man
Jon's story comes to a respectable point.
Theon's arc is comlete, episode-wise.
Perhaps because I've only been waiting 3 years I'm not as hung up on resolution, and I equally value the number of new things he starts up in this book-- Aegon VI, Quentin, Griff. and the increased focus on the battle for the North.
And there are some resolutions:
While Dany isn't exactly resolved in this book, it seems pretty clear to me she knows not to try to keep the Queen of Mereen thing going.
Quentin, as I said, is resolved quite nicely.
Arya becomes a Faceless Man
Jon's story comes to a respectable point.
Theon's arc is comlete, episode-wise.
Perhaps because I've only been waiting 3 years I'm not as hung up on resolution, and I equally value the number of new things he starts up in this book-- Aegon VI, Quentin, Griff. and the increased focus on the battle for the North.
It seems you're simplifying and downplaying pretty much everyone's story arcs. :| One of the few problems the book has is how he leaves so many things unresolved, NOT that nothing happens to any one of them. If AGOT had been like ADWD, the book would've ended with Ice coming down on Ned's head, Dany burning in the fire, Arya being caught by "someone" (who would've turned out to be that Night's Watch dude in the second book), Sansa confronting The Hound who'd have had a sword in his hand and a wicked smile on his face etc. In the long run, when/if this series ever gets finished, I don't feel like that's too bad of a thing when you can just continue straight into the next book, but with 3,5-5 years between books.. yeah, it's a bit annoying.ultron87 said:
There's also the problem of how much Jon meddles with things of the kingdom that Night's Watch isn't supposed to, the relationship with Mel, the business with thought-to-be Arya.
Yeeeeah.... It's not as simple as that. I'd say the fact that Tyrion is pretty much a complete mess and ruin of a human being in the beginning of the book (hated by everyone, feels betrayed by the only family member he ever loved, has absolutely NOTHING in the world at that point and doesn't really feel like he has a purpose in the world anymore) and how he climbs up from the hole of depression and gets back into the GAME by the end of the book is a major arc for him. After losing everything in the end of SOS, Tyrion is back with vengeance by the end of ADWD.
I'd say how she little by little loses grip on the situation in Meereen is a bit more complex than that. You're just scorned that Dany still isn't on her way to Westeros. Doesn't mean nothing happened in ADWD. I'd see it as an important step in coming a strong but just ruler with clear principles she's not willing to back away from, like she does in ADWD due to so much pressure from all sides.
He was in the second part of the book, though. Not with his own chapters, but I don't feel like we have a need to see all of the greenseer learning stuff. The way Martin incorporated Bran into one of Theon's chapters was more than enough to show how much he had progressed. And I don't think it'd have been wise to have too much of the kind of history-learning & shocking revelations through vague memories of the trees, enough of that kind of stuff in one book is enough and I feel there was plenty of it in ADWD (shed light to a lot of the things going behind the scenes in the North, but not too much so that we were left guessing & speculating what some of it meant, in the bigger picture). And we've already gotten to read so much about his warging that we don't really need to see that part of the training either. He's up in the north where there's pretty much nothing else but trees, mountains and the Others. He can't do much else but sit around there and try to learn the ways of the wargs/greenseer. If mastering all that stuff is slow, then like Arya, we just need to see the more important events that happen and how he maybe affects other people's stories (like Theon's, or how Arya was in some Samwell chapters in AFFC), not every step in the way to being a proper greenseer.
When something is done that way in ASOIAF, there's much more to it than that. Just like how they just mentioned it once how Davos had been killed in AFFC, which felt like a kick in the nuts ("is that all he's going to say about his death?"), but how Martin went into much more detail about it in ADWD.
Not really. We could've perhaps gotten a resolution to at least one battle (either Meereen or Winterfell) if this was like the rest of the books, but pretty much all the main characters (Dany, Tyrion, Jon etc.) still grew & changed during ADWD as much if not even more than they did in a lot of the other books.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I totally disagree. Arya as a subplot is still one of the most fascinating stories in the series.yacobod said:
Regarding Jon and Lightbringer: we don't know if he has to willingly make the sacrifice to become AA reborn. Martin has set up a couple of easy ways for someone to plunge their sword into a loved one. We've got glamours and ...Faceless Men. How many bricks would be shat if Arya and Jon were finally reunited but she is in disguise and he kills her for some reason? Arya = accidental Nissa Nissa.
platypotamus
Member
Thank you Famassu, for basically typing up what I was too lazy to.
I'm actually not the biggest fan of what Arya is going through at the moment (though, her second assassination chapter was cool). Not that it's horrible literature or anything, I'm just more interested in what's her role in the long run, not what she's going through at the moment which is so separate from everything else going on. Will she be hired by the Bank of Braavos to cause some trouble to the Lannisters who won't pay for their dept (or, well, at this point it's only Cersei, pretty much) or will she get assigned someone who'd be a more shocking victim (Tyrion? Sansa? I know, highly unlikely and bad examples but some character like them would make for some interesting reading, how much Arya is still Arya)?ZephyrFate said:
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
The iron bank is the most likely one. I mean, they have to play a bigger role now, they got their own character.
I wasn't happy that Jon Snow lost his sword duel against Mance Rayder. He's been a pretty awesome soldier this whole time, probably the strongest Stark. Ned is actually pretty weak in the book eventhough he was bumped upto master swordsman in the TV show just to amp up the drama. Though I guess it's not too bad, I do remember something about Halfhand saying Mance was the best person in the Night's Watch at one time.
Another thing I wanted to say is I know Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring are going to be good simply because they are the last two books. If they are each about 1000 pages George doesn't have much room to tell the stories of each character (including side characters) in great detail. He is going to have to make these two books plot driven like the first three books. He can't keep writing Feast For Crows type books if he wants to complete the story in a satisfying way. The first half of Dance with Dragons was very plot driven and I think most people found it to be very satisfying. Bran is just at the beggining of his journey and him and Jon have to learn much more about the Others and how to stop them. One or maybe both brothers will likely journey deep into the Land of Always Winter in the next books. Not to mention that Bran needs to complete his training and we need to learn more about Bloodraven. Sansa needs to resolve her story arc by dealing with Littlefinger and Arya has to complete her story arc as well. Dany has a long way to go to get to Westeros. I could keep going.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Doesn't make sense Osha would take Rickon to Skagos. She was trying desperately to flee the North, why go back that way? She was terrified - something tells me cannibals are scary too.
platypotamus
Member
John Harker said:
I'm wondering if it was a shipwreck scenario while on their way across the narrow sea, but then I'm not sure how Dex would have known about it.
elrechazado
Banned
She was fleeing beyond the wall to escape the white walkers. She made it past the wall. Skagos is not "beyond the wall" in the sense that the north/wildling areas she was fleeing from are.John Harker said:
Just because there are cannibals doesn't mean that free folk can't go there, or that osha wouldn't feel safe there. All we have is the "popular" view that skagos is a terrible place. The common knowledge in westeros is that the wildlings above teh wall are all evil and terrible too, but we know that's not true at all.
elrechazado
Banned
I know this man.zmoney said:
I wish people would realize this and stop with the lame "arya will be forced to kill sansa" theories that are always coming up for some bizarre reason.
elrechazado
Banned
I'm agreeing with youzmoney said:
Been saying for ages in this and other threads that the "arya will have to kill jon/sansa/nymeria (wtf??)" theories are garbage."I know this man" was a quote from the FM in the book - I wasn't saying "I know this, man!"
platypotamus
Member
With her "cheating" through her training, and retaining some of her identity due to her warging, I think ultimately Arya isn't going to become a true Faceless man, just get a bunch of their training to use for Arya purposes, rather than the organization's. Almost even expect to see her forced to flee from the temple at some point.
Pollux
Member
elrechazao said:I'm agreeing with you
"I know this man" was a quote from the FM in the book - I wasn't saying "I know this, man!"
Ah my bad. I get where the theories come from because it would be something Martin might do, but with the rules built into the universe it is an impossibility. Now if she was sent to kill Melisandre and Jon killed her, that would be something we could talk about. Maybe. I don't know if she would try and carry out her mission once she saw Jon. (assuming he's still alive, and in his original body.)
This.platypotamus said:
Finally finished it.
not surprise by Jon's chapter ending. it echoes to Tyrion becoming a Hand.
The middle of the book was slow but toward the end it picked up.
Good thing about kindle is going straight to the chapters. So i skipped the table of contents and surprised to see new/old names pop-up.
Theon escape was my favorite, and Selmy kicking ass
Quentyn's death. LOL foolish kid.
Penny <3 love her dialogues. Simple and innocent compared to Tyrion's
not surprise by Jon's chapter ending. it echoes to Tyrion becoming a Hand.
The middle of the book was slow but toward the end it picked up.
Good thing about kindle is going straight to the chapters. So i skipped the table of contents and surprised to see new/old names pop-up.
Theon escape was my favorite, and Selmy kicking ass
Quentyn's death. LOL foolish kid.
Penny <3 love her dialogues. Simple and innocent compared to Tyrion's
Gamer @ Heart
Member
platypotamus said:
Would they send someone after her you think?
platypotamus
Member
Gamer @ Heart said:
Not sure, really. Maybe someone in her "prayer" ends up in Bravos, and she kills them without it being an assigned thing, and they get mad. Kick her out, or does she need to die now? Maybe they just discover at some point in her training when "Arya" is supposed to be "no one" that she has somehow retained her identity,and then yeah, same thing, kick her out, or kill her? I don't imagine that an organization of assassin's (as religious as they may be) will take kindly to someone getting all that training and then forsaking their rules.
Does anyone else think that Bloodraven and Melisandre are going to have some sort of wizarding duel? I think Melisandre might misinterpret her visions and try to kill him or maybe send Jon out to kill him. I'm still not sure if Bloodraven is a good guy, he sounded pretty harsh during his tenure as Hand to the King. Right now he is acting kind of like a nice old guru/grandfather to Bran. For all we know he could be the one orchestrating the return of the Others.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I am pretty sure he knows that. We all know these were transitional, worldbuilding books. And they are necessary in the grand scope of things.apana said:
Just finished this today. Slowly went through it and tried to avoid the threads no matter the cost. Great to finally read what people have been saying. Glad Stannis is probably not dead as I sort of like the guy even though he is a prick but at least you know where he stands. I was getting all ready for Jon to go South and wreck shit up but Ghost going nuts earlier in the chapter like what happened before the Red Wedding game me some pause.
Glad Strong Belwas is still alive, hopefully he can return to his old self and destroy the shit out of everyone with Selmy. Fucking loved Selmy taking out the trash pit fighter. Varys killing that asshole of a Maester was awesome but losing Kevan sucked as he was the nicest Lannister.
Dany's last chapter I didn't really care for and we will see what happens with her being captured by the Khal. It is funny how so many young people in power positions do stupid shit for love, Dany with Daario, Quentyn and Dany, Robb and his Westerling wife, etc.
Glad Strong Belwas is still alive, hopefully he can return to his old self and destroy the shit out of everyone with Selmy. Fucking loved Selmy taking out the trash pit fighter. Varys killing that asshole of a Maester was awesome but losing Kevan sucked as he was the nicest Lannister.
Dany's last chapter I didn't really care for and we will see what happens with her being captured by the Khal. It is funny how so many young people in power positions do stupid shit for love, Dany with Daario, Quentyn and Dany, Robb and his Westerling wife, etc.
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