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"A Violent Response To Trump Is As Logical As Any" -huffingtonpost

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There is a difference between using violence when you are systematically being oppressed and I.e. the civil rights, women's, and gay rights movement vs using violence when your opponent doesn't even have power. Now if we could revisit this if he won and started making life hell but until then you are just an asshole
 

Fuchsdh

Member
In this case, application of violence is like trying to burn fire.

I mean, lets say you go beat the shit out of a bunch of trump supporters. Okay. What has been accomplished by this? Have you convinced the opposition to not vote for trump? No. Have you convinced others to vote for Hillary? Unlikely. And what else matters in terms of a voting booth? I mean, that's what it comes down to, whether people sign a piece of paper one way or another. Violence doesn't help with that.

All it does is provide support to Trump's supporter's methodology, if not their particular targets. That we should inflict violence on those who disagree.

If you are being attacked by a Trump supporter physically, by all means, defend yourself as you must, but you're not going to help anyone by being the aggressor.

I feel like even if you agree with "violent protests catalyze change" (which I can agree with in certain instances even if I disagree with the morality of said violence) comparing violence at political rallies to the examples they give are disingenuous as well. This isn't a case of "we have no outlet besides violent struggle"—it's a goddamn election where you can vote for chrissakes.

And, like, there's a pretty mainstream analysis of Trumpism that you're not really engaging with. A common way of thinking about Trump is that the Republican Party is in the state it's in just because things have been getting better and totally ordinary, non-violent methods are becoming more and more capable of achieving positive change. The usual thinking here is that this is racist conservatives lashing out because they can see that they don't wield the power they used to. It's harder and harder for them to win elections. You can't really avoid this sort of lashing out - there was no good strategy to prevent something like Trump - but it only happened in the first place because we're winning. This is a pretty common sort of reaction - look at the Civil Rights Movement. That white conservative politics got especially racialized and ugly at the time isn't evidence that civil rights activists were doing something wrong. And in fact it's pretty easy to argue that this sort of lashing out is itself long-term harmful to the lashers getting what they want. 2010 was a significant setback but the problem there was pretty obviously that not enough people voted - doing perfectly ordinary party-based political activism like GOTV work in an off-year seems like it'd be way more useful than just about anything else.

Another great point. People treat Trump as the cause when his ascendancy is just a symptom of the political climate, and while part of that climate is bad, the other part is that we're making huge strides and social progress in a lot of areas. A lot of states wouldn't be facing anything like HB2 if they had just voted in the first place, instead of letting a diehard bunch of old conservatives take over their statehouse and gerrymander.

I saw Trump protesters burning the American flag while rioting.

That will definitely sway people over to their side right?

The protestors running around with Mexican flags have always confused me. If your point is that your proud American immigrants despite your legal status or whatnot, why are you draping yourselves in the flags of other countries? Not likely to sway many guys against you who are probably already convinced you're pestilent wall jumpers anyhow, but it's seemed like bad optics.
 
Quoting to get back to this point.

For those who say violence is never a good option. That it'll never lead to victory, what have you done to stop the rise of Trump?

It happened on all of our watches. In our need for order, our lack of confronting the ugliness created these past 8 years.

Why are you ok with that? If you aren't, what are you going to do about it, even beyond the election?

Because POCs, LGBTs, etc... We'll be dealing with this long after Trump is gone. With or without help.

I voted against him in my primary, where I'm an independent and chose to vote Republican for that reason. More people voted for him than me. That's how the democracy works. It's likely more than the author of this article and anybody agreeing with it have done.
 
This is the dumbest thing I've read in a hot minute. Fighting fascists with violence is like a guarantee that they'll win; their whole ideology is around the use of strength, making an election (or what have you) about the use of strength is playing directly into their hands.
 
Ok I see your point. And yeah, my point was scrambled up due to anger that people are still dying and losing their livelihoods due to thing that Trump Supporters would likely support. And it feels like liberals and conservatives alike do not care. They don't.

I mean, of course you're going to get responses like you're replying to now. You keep asking what they're doing, but from their perspective they're already doing more than you even if they're doing nothing. At least they're not working for Trump like you are (or at least as you're advocating for).

You don't know what I'm advocating for. That's my fault because I have been very jumbled up due to anger and panic.

I'm advocating for more help is provided to POCs and LGBTs and orgs fighting for more agency for minorities, by making sure the stuff Trump and other Republicans talk about gets staunchly challenged. That those who plead for non-violence understand that that tactic takes work. FAR more work than just voting.

And that minorities shouldn't be the grunts working on this progress. The mules, like we have been for decades.

There's an optimism here which is kind of strange to me. It's like people see politics as a puzzle game and decide that there must be a way to win in three moves if only they can find it. We haven't won yet, so clearly we've got to do something radically different. The argument for violence is basically process of elimination: "well, something has to work". But something doesn't have to work. You actually need reasons for thinking that your strategy would help if you want to persuade anybody. Reiterating that things are bad and aren't getting better as quickly as many would like isn't going to cut it.

And, like, there's a pretty mainstream analysis of Trumpism that you're not really engaging with. A common way of thinking about Trump is that the Republican Party is in the state it's in just because things have been getting better and totally ordinary, non-violent methods are becoming more and more capable of achieving positive change. The usual thinking here is that this is racist conservatives lashing out because they can see that they don't wield the power they used to. It's harder and harder for them to win elections. You can't really avoid this sort of lashing out - there was no good strategy to prevent something like Trump - but it only happened in the first place because we're winning. This is a pretty common sort of reaction - look at the Civil Rights Movement. That white conservative politics got especially racialized and ugly at the time isn't evidence that civil rights activists were doing something wrong. And in fact it's pretty easy to argue that this sort of lashing out is itself long-term harmful to the lashers getting what they want. 2010 was a significant setback but the problem there was pretty obviously that not enough people voted - doing perfectly ordinary party-based political activism like GOTV work in an off-year seems like it'd be way more useful than just about anything else.

But do you see why I'm angry though?

Your "winning" still involves black people dying on the street in droves, Native Americans disenfranchised as hell, LGBTs of Color still not being able to get housing by the droves, folks getting outright alternative history by public schooling that leads to very uncritical sociological views.

For many of us, that doesn't feel like winning. And when guys like Trump show up threatening to do far worse, and people eat that shit up, and people that are supposed to be on your side being so nonchalant about it, it's fucking scary.
 
For many of us, that doesn't feel like winning. And when guys like Trump show up threatening to do far worse, and people eat that shit up, and people that are supposed to be on your side being so nonchalant about it, it's fucking scary.

Opposition to beating the shit out of a random Republican voter is not the same as being "nonchalant". Opponents of Trump and his rhetoric are more energized about stopping him than about any political candidate in a generation.

The problems you listed have been issues throughout the Obama administration and will surely continue during a potential Clinton one. That's not an excuse to slit some throats because things aren't happening quickly enough through peaceful means.
 

Keasar

Member
I don't think anyone should justify the violence happening, but on the other side I can understand why it is happening.

His rhetoric is hateful. His supporters are fucking insane. His supporters are even more crazy for keeping on supporting him even when he talks about how he wishes protesters to be beaten up, carried out on stretchers etc.

What is happening right now I would say is not the collapse of democracy but more the natural response towards a hateful figure. His supporters have hurt lots of people, I think it is not unusual to expect that punches are gonna get swung back.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
There is a difference between using violence when you are systematically being oppressed and I.e. the civil rights, women's, and gay rights movement vs using violence when your opponent doesn't even have power. Now if we could revisit this if he won and started making life hell but until then you are just an asshole
Perhaps some people (Muslims and Mexicans for example) cannot afford to take that gamble.
 
The ends don't justify the means, and violence as a method of changing minds is pretty much the worst thing you can do given how the human brain works. Violence as a way of obtaining power/recognition can be argued, but throwing rocks at a group of very emotionally thinking supporters only emboldens them.

Giving in to emotion and fear in order to confront those that already have doesn't seem like a winning strategy even if it feels good.
 

Burt

Member
hnnnnngggggg


hnnnngggggggggggggggggg

I love seeing liberals call other liberals 'liberals' as a pejorative.
 

DedValve

Banned
And even if he is elected, the likelyhood of any severe policies being enacted is very very low.

This is entirely hubris, politics, and FUD. Justifying violence in this situation is an abomination and I cannot believe how many "journalists" are justifying it. Psychopaths.

Do you honestly believe this? A trump presidency would be disastrous for minorities. Just look at his comments on transgender rights, leaving it to the stupid states rather than taking ALL lgbtq rights on a federal level is already disastrous.
 

Mecha

Member
This is the dumbest thing I've read in a hot minute. Fighting fascists with violence is like a guarantee that they'll win; their whole ideology is around the use of strength, making an election (or what have you) about the use of strength is playing directly into their hands.

Letting fascists have full lease on the use of strength is what plays right into their hands. It isn't wise to throw away violence as a tactic when the opposing party feels free to use it.

Just as a reminder, I don't think Trump is a clear fascist so I'm not really talking about him or his supporters.
 

creatchee

Member
hnnnnngggggg


hnnnngggggggggggggggggg

I love seeing liberals call other liberals 'liberals' as a pejorative.

Almost as much as I love seeing liberals say, in effect, that Stand Your Ground is a legit defense when it's against a perceived nonlethal conservative threat.
 

Sulik2

Member
Except for Ghandi the only thing that has caused real systemic change on a governmental level is violence. So not really surprising people get violent. It works.
 
Except for Ghandi the only thing that has caused real systemic change on a governmental level is violence. So not really surprising people get violent. It works.

What it doesn't work on is changing peoples views and thats what people are concerned about here. When threatened with violence, peoples psychological response is more fear and strengthening their beliefs.
 
Except for Ghandi the only thing that has caused real systemic change on a governmental level is violence. So not really surprising people get violent. It works.

But we can have a world without Donald Trump without violence. It's called voting. He hasn't won anything and he's behind in nearly every poll, and every estimate looks like he'll be squashed in the electoral college by a bigger margin than we've seen in a generation.

People pretending that violence is the right way to prevent Donald Trump from becoming president (a thing in and of itself which won't even change much even if he did win) are failing to see that Trump is the change. The status quo is not trump. So if you're turning towards violence when confronted with Donald Trump, then you'll very well end up instituting change ... the election of Donald Trump.
 
This article and some posters in this thread argue for the effectiveness of violence, but no one has explained what violence against Trump supporters is suppose to achieve.
Violence may be understandable reaction to Trump, but "logical"? Not seeing it.
 

sphagnum

Banned
hnnnnngggggg


hnnnngggggggggggggggggg

I love seeing liberals call other liberals 'liberals' as a pejorative.

Nobody's using liberal as a pejorative. Leftists are not the same thing as liberals and the confusion only stems from the fact that Americans use the term liberal differently from the rest of the world.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
And, like, there's a pretty mainstream analysis of Trumpism that you're not really engaging with. A common way of thinking about Trump is that the Republican Party is in the state it's in just because things have been getting better and totally ordinary, non-violent methods are becoming more and more capable of achieving positive change. The usual thinking here is that this is racist conservatives lashing out because they can see that they don't wield the power they used to.

That theory is common on the left because it affirms the moral superiority of their own tribe: "we are good, and making the world good, and the sorry bastards that disagree with us are lashing out against our righteousness." An alternate explanation that is just as plausible is that Trump is repackaging the methods and language of identity politics and selling it to white people.

If identity politics undermines the sense of universalism necessary for a healthy (classic) liberal democracy, then it would also erode support for democratic norms in favor of power politics. Trump and his followers certainly have expressed their contempt for democratic norms. The author of this piece and the sympathetic posters align with Trump against democratic norms and in favor of power politics.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
What gamble? What the hell is beating people up going to do? We are still going to have an election, and if you increase violence you only increase Trump's chances.

Step 1: Line the streets with bloody Trump supporters, bodies draped with the Mexican flag.

Step 2: ????

Step 3: An equal and just society
 

moomoo14

Member
Are people aware that the US has checks and balances that guarantee a tyrant can't really do much? Most of Trump's policies have no chance of passing. So people responding to him with violence is not helpful to their cause, and also unnecessary. It just seems silly to me.

If the US was more like Russia politically, I could understand where the fear would come from. But here, i just don't see why people are reacting to Trump in such violent ways. It just makes him stronger.
 
What's stopping the non-conservatives buying the exact same guns and using them the exact same way? Nothing except ideals.

There's a literal gun culture that would leave anyone who randomly buys a weapon to be vastly less effective compared to a seasoned enthusiast. You can argue left vs right but at the end of the day right wingers spend more time and money on the skill set. Violence won't get you anywhere.
 
I though I was part of the progressive left.

Now the left looks more like the extreme right.

I guess I'm in the middle now.

I hope this author regrets his point of view if any persons are killed because of his words.

Must be amazing thinking you can decide who deserves to be hurt.

It is. Just ask a cop.
 
It is. Just ask a cop.

raw
 
It's amazing and horrifying how far trump has gotten..... but are we really supposed to believe before an election everyone should be violence. This article is ridiculous, it only justifies behavior for the very thing we condemn.
 

Burt

Member
Liberal is being used here in its classical definition.

No, it isn't, assuming you're referring literally to classical liberalism, the ideology of individual liberty and small government, aka modern conservative values.

As a result, a litany of think-pieces and condemnations from liberal media and politicians are making their rounds to make it clear how unacceptable and counterproductive any violence or rioting is, urging people to “listen to the other side,” and to use “legitimate means“ to fight Trump’s rise—ignoring the possibility of fascism in the US rising with it. Those who stray from this nonviolent narrative, like Emmet Rensin, an editor at Vox who tweeted that people should riot when Trump comes to town, face swift and punitive redress, urging them to fall back in line. Amidst the hot takes and denunciations from liberals, they all seem to miss a few key points.

I'm not going to edit them all in, but the links that he applies to that segment as citations for people denouncing violence include Slate, TPM, Vox, and Barack Obama. The Washington Post link is being used as evidence of a phenomenon, not as a target of his argument. He is very clearly arguing against liberals in the modern American sense of the word, otherwise known as democrats. It's almost as if

Nobody's using liberal as a pejorative. Leftists are not the same thing as liberals and the confusion only stems from the fact that Americans use the term liberal differently from the rest of the world.

it's an American author writing for an American publication about a current American political phenomenon, and therefore part of an environment where 'liberal' and 'democrat' are interchangeable to all but the furthest of the left.

And with that in mind, I bet this guy threw up air quotes every time he had to say 'liberals' as he drafted this piece. Air quotes so hard they created a sonic boom, like the snap of a bullet shrimp. Because all those fake "liberals" who aren't out there punching people in the face are just idiots and part of the problem and definitely aren't real liberals.
 

Kinyou

Member
What it doesn't work on is changing peoples views and thats what people are concerned about here. When threatened with violence, peoples psychological response is more fear and strengthening their beliefs.
Yeah, that's part of the problem. People aren't fighting the government here.
 
Discourse that treats opposition to violence as bigoted is starting to get old. For my part I'm getting pretty tired of my oppression as a member of the LGBT+ community being used as an excuse to undermine important political norms that took ages to establish and will be nearly impossible to recreate once destroyed, often by the very same partisans that were running the hell away from gay rights a decade ago because it was a losing electoral proposition.

I take the point that not allowing the open bigotry that trump uses to be normalized, but normalizing political violence instead is hardly an improvement.

(On mobile so multi quoting is hard, but re:classical liberal)

I mean, both say principled small-government conservatism and rule of law liberalism are descended from the same classical liberal tradition. While they're both considers on the left, ACLU-style "let's defend the constitutional rights of neonazis to March in a Jewish neighborhood" and antifa-style "let's show up at Golden Dawn rallies with ski masks and baseball bats" are about as far from each other as they can be. When hear are the relevant distinctions, usually the side in favor of the rule of law is called "liberal" since they adhere more closely to the tradition while those advocating violence are "leftists."
 
Has anyone promoting political violence on GAF actually taken part in it?

Has anybody advocating for peaceful protest and activism reaped the benefits of the instutionalized oppression that isn't going to be eradicated in their lifetime?

Here's another question. Has anybody condemning anti-fascists because 'there is no place for violence in our political process' condemned all acts of violence by the state? Have they condemned drone strikes because political violence is 'disgusting'? Have they been to any Disarm the Police rallies? Do they condemn the Libyan regime change as an act of political violence? Are they pacifists? Are they against our criminal justice system because arrest and incarceration are violence that we perpetuate on a mass scale?

Or are they all just hypocrites?

The article is actually arguing otherwise, that the end goal isn't just to make sure Trump loses the election.

Now feel free to disagree, as there's plenty wrong with this article (namely the comparisons with WW2 and the rise of Euro-fascism), but at least argue against the points being raised.

Only like three people have actually read the article. The first 20 or so posts are full of arguments that are directly addressed in the article, but posters present them as if they're new.

I take the point that not allowing the open bigotry that trump uses to be normalized, but normalizing political violence instead is hardly an improvement.

It is for POC.

And again, political violence is normal as FUCK if you're black. Just go to any city courthouse and watch the pain get served like it's lunch.
 
If identity politics undermines the sense of universalism necessary for a healthy (classic) liberal democracy, then it would also erode support for democratic norms in favor of power politics. Trump and his followers certainly have expressed their contempt for democratic norms. The author of this piece and the sympathetic posters align with Trump against democratic norms and in favor of power politics.

That's what I'm pretty sure is going on. It's easy to understand all points from here -- if your way of life is in danger, why wouldn't you attack? Because "moral high ground?" The SAME moral high ground that people tend to use when giving lipservice to everyone else, but never fixing problems?

The woman who would be considered a man and ostracized because she isn't "biologically" a woman if Trump and his supporters have their way isn't going to care if she gets arrested or not, because gasoline, kerosene, beer, and towels are cheap and burn extremely well, and society will push her into suicide, like so many more before her. The black kid who would get shot by a cop for the crime of looking imposing to someone isn't going to give a damn. Any moment and he could be dead for something that isn't his fault -- the ones that do it sit in their ivory towers, looking down from, again, their "moral high ground" they so happily claim, to provide lip service. Nothing ever gets done. Maybe if he's going to end up in jail or shot because of a broken system anyway, he'll decide to shoot you first.

There are very real people with very real problems that aren't only not getting addressed, but aren't even taken seriously by half of the country. Even some DEMOCRATS will tell me that, though I suffer from gender dysphoria, I shouldn't be allowed to "indulge my mental illness." Some DEMOCRATS believe that "maybe he shouldn't have been a thug" is a good excuse for why yet another black kid got shot for no legitimate reason, or why it took 6 officers to choke someone, or why an officer decided to just hold the tazer button down for longer than it should be.

The FRUSTRATION at these problems not being solved is something close to the anxiety from living at, in, or near a war zone. Because make no mistake, we ARE at war. We're just lucky enough that they haven't started using guns agains- oh. Oh, wait.

At the same time, the OPPOSITE side feels as if they are at war. They've been immersed in propaganda, dog whistle politics, lies, and worse. When people haven't fallen for them but bring up a legitimate claim, it's easy to discredit them and tell them to their face they're just as bad as all the rest. What would normally be a voice for reason has no place, because the No Man's Land between both factions is fucked. So you have someone saying "I'm a warrior for the babies!" and gunning down a dozen innocent people, or you'll have growing poverty, incarceration, and drug use, with the blame rested on everyone else. This is what compromise is for -- grasping the people who would normally only come if you dragged them kicking and screaming, and walking the middle of the road where possible. They fear what they don't understand, and fail to understand a lot. It's prohibitively difficult to educate them because they think we're trying to pass one over on them (rational) or that they're part of the conspiracy(irrational). To them, progress such as "allowing transgender individuals to use the bathroom corresponding with their gender" is scary as hell. It was never a problem before, because they never thought about it. To them, "Transgender" might be something closer to "Drag Queen." Religious overtones already portray that as a sinful perversion. A perversion, at all, that they need to defend themselves against. Thus, enforcing it feels, to them, as an attack on their religion, on their very way of life. Why WOULDN'T you defend yourself against an existential threat like that?

And all of this goes onto the internet, passed around, contexts changed or removed. So we keep fighting against each other, never really making any ground either way, because victory today is defeat tomorrow.

It's really no wonder why some turn to violence, or populist candidates come within spitting distance of the presidency (or at least nomination), or why nothing gets done. People are tuning out of the rat race. Apathy runs high, and the easily manipulated passionate(or crazy, or both) people vote. What we're seeing here is how it's always worked -- marginalized groups become more and more extreme as they are backed further and further into a corner. They may be smaller, but louder, more dangerous. Interestingly enough, the only thing that comes to mind when looking for a rebuttal for this is when the DNC capitulated after Mcgovern's loss in '72, and "liberal" became a bad word for Republicans AND Democrats.

What followed was 40 years of the architecture of both economic and social failure, the worst the country has seen since the Civil War. Deregulation across theboard, poor modeling, poor math, and gut feelings passed off as economics, fear mongering (the criminals! the drugs! the gays!) tearing down social barriers and forcing people into hiding to be who they are. Bill Clinton's election was the spoiled brat finding broccoli under his mashed potatoes after his daddy told him "no broccoli." It is only VERY recently that left liberalism has made a resurgence, and ONLY because fascism has, too.
 
Well said, great first posts. Violence is never the right answer if there are alternatives to bring about the same if not a better solution.

Well, you could always do what other groups have done in the past:

"They're not people, so this isn't violence."
 
The LA riots didn't do jack shit though.

And we see, so much of the opposition is rooted in affirmative knowledge of inaccurate, white-washed history:

After the riots subsided, an inquiry was commissioned by the city Police Commission, led by William H. Webster (special advisor), and Hubert Williams (deputy special advisor, the then president of the Police Foundation).[97] The findings of the inquiry, The City in Crisis: A Report by the Special Advisor to the Board of Police Commissioners on the Civil Disorder in Los Angeles, also colloquially known as the Webster Report or Webster Commission, was released on October 21, 1992.[98]

LAPD chief of police Daryl Gates, who had seen his successor Willie L. Williams named by the Police Commission only days before the riots,[99] was forced to resign on June 28, 1992.[100] Some areas of the city saw temporary truces between the Crips and Bloods gangs​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#Aftermath

"I've never studied political violence, but I'm certain that it accomplishes nothing!"

They should punch the judge.

Actually, they should vote the judge off the bench - oh wait, they just lost their voting rights!
 
Here's another question. Has anybody condemning anti-fascists because 'there is no place for violence in our political process' condemned all acts of violence by the state? Have they condemned drone strikes because political violence is 'disgusting'? Have they been to any Disarm the Police rallies? Do they condemn the Libyan regime change as an act of political violence? Are they pacifists? Are they against our criminal justice system because arrest and incarceration are violence that we perpetuate on a mass scale?

Or are they all just hypocrites?



Only like three people have actually read the article. The first 20 or so posts are full of arguments that are directly addressed in the article, but posters present them as if they're new.



It is for POC.

Right, because there's no history of extrajudicial violence preventing POC from participating in the political process in this country. A polity where people feel it's justified to go beat me up walking home from a pride parade because they disagree with my politics is a far more dangerous one for me than one with a few homophobic politicians.

In point of fact, I opposed the Libyan war, am at least sympathetic to prison abolitionism, and voted libertarian in 2012 as a protest against the drone program. But even if I hadn't done all those things, the charge of hypocrisy hardly sticks. This blithe conflation of every sort of political violence is ignorant of the entire liberal tradition that the argument rests upon.

If we take as an axiom that some level of violence (in its properly expanded definition, as you use it, to include things like imprisonment and law enforcement) is necessary, then our job is to ensure that it is used as sparingly as possible and hurts the least number of people. To that end, we've erected a series of institutions to carry out political violence - most notably the police force - a set of principles where the use of force is justified - the law - and a series of checks and balances to ensure those principles are being followed - the court system. It's far from a perfect system, and shot through with racism and classism. But if a police officer chokes a guy selling loose cigarettes to death, he can be charged with a crime, get a hearing, and have an independent institution determine the veracity of the claims. Again, they get it wrong a lot of the time. But it sure as hell beats someone ambushing said police officer and bags of his brains in as vigilante justice. And it sure as hell beats someone ambushing random trump supporter in an alley coming from a rally and bashing his head in.

Violence restrained by institutions and the rule of law is imperfect, often bigoted, but substituting it for a Hobbesian struggle is scarcely an imporvement.
 

Carl2291

Member
It's idiotic.

You only make him stronger. If you want to fight Trump and his supporters, so it either words. Violence against him and his voters will only rally more people to his cause.
 
If you haven't beaten a trump supporter in the street today then you don't deserve to call yourself a liberal. Me? I dropped a couple of old white males with a baseball bat to the head. If I can put enough of them in hospital I'm 100% sure racism will be over.
 
Utterly bizarre that the riots which saw a massive uptick in private gun ownership in LA, caused black flight from the city, and brutal police crackdowns on brown and black neighborhoods are being recast as an act of revolutionary justice producing positive change.


It's telling that the bourgeois defenders of this always attempt to recast it in terms of state violence. Slamming a bag of rocks into the head of a voter doesn't make you Che. It wouldn't even get you a seat at the Second International.
 

Gotchaye

Member
That theory is common on the left because it affirms the moral superiority of their own tribe: "we are good, and making the world good, and the sorry bastards that disagree with us are lashing out against our righteousness." An alternate explanation that is just as plausible is that Trump is repackaging the methods and language of identity politics and selling it to white people.

I'm not sure that these are distinct theories as long as your version includes that Trump has been successful in large part because the use of identity politics by the left and its electoral success has given many white voters a sense that the Democratic coalition is a threat to their interests. The theories differ in their use of value-laden terms like "racism" and "identity politics" but seem to me to agree on the important cause-effect relations between real-world actions. It's not like I'm making an argument from the universe having a fundamental tendency towards goodness - the argument about how Trump relates to the effectiveness of ordinary political action in pursuit of my goals doesn't depend on my side being the good guys. I do think this theory is a little awkward if "identity politics" is supposed to be relatively new since it's not like Trump's sort of message hasn't been seen before in conservative politics.

If identity politics undermines the sense of universalism necessary for a healthy (classic) liberal democracy, then it would also erode support for democratic norms in favor of power politics. Trump and his followers certainly have expressed their contempt for democratic norms. The author of this piece and the sympathetic posters align with Trump against democratic norms and in favor of power politics.

This, though, seems way too strong. Lots of what you would think of as left-wing identity politics has been going on for a long time without throwing up a major politician with Trump's disrespect for democratic norms. The piece even spends some time lamenting that liberals are too committed to democratic norms - this attitude seems much more widespread and deeply-rooted on the right to me, which is weird if "identity politics" is to blame and the left does lots more of it and the right has only adopted it recently. I would guess that disrespect for democratic norms is mostly just about despairing of achieving important political goals within the system. Different styles of politics might have some effect on what people see as important political goals or on how winnable they think political fights are, but it seems pretty unsurprising to me that the left throws up a bunch of revolutionary vanguard type groups while the right sometimes produces relatively large movements opposed to some social change (which they see as slippery slopes that only get harder to roll back with time).
 
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