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[Zeus Molecules]

Stan Lee's cameo is the worst part of every movie with a Stan Lee cameo.

Spoiler

Unless you just watch the cameos, one after another.

It was the best part of Amazing Spiderman ....

 

[Sibersk Esto]

This is a letter by Stan Lee in '99

To Whom It May Concern:

I would like to go on record with the following statement…

I have always considered Steve Ditko to be Spider-Man’s co-creator.

When I first told Steve my idea for a shy, teenaged high-school science student who’d be bitten by a radioactive spider, thus gaining the ability to stick to walls and shoot webs, Steve took to it like a duck to water.

Steve’s illustrated version of Peter Parker/Spider-Man and his coterie of supporting characters was more compelling and dramatic than I had dared hope it would be. From his very first panel, Steve created and established the perfect mood and gestalt for Spider-Man.

Also it goes without saying that Steve’s costume design was an actual masterpiece of imagination. Thanks to Steve Ditko, Spidey’s costume has become one of the world’s most recognizable visual icons.

Nor can I forget to credit Steve with the many, many brilliant plots he furnished as the strip continued to increase in popularity with each passing month. So adept was he at story-telling, that Steve eventually did most of the plotting and illustrations while I, of course, continued to provide the dialogue and captions.

I write this to ensure that Steve Ditko receives the credit to which he is so justly entitled.

Yours sincerely,

Stan Lee

and a statement he made in a playboy interview last year

“There was never a time when it just said ‘by Stan Lee.’ It was always ‘by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko’ or ‘by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.’ I made sure their names were always as big as mine. As far as what they were paid, I had nothing to do with that. They were hired as freelance artists, and they worked as freelance artists. At some point they apparently felt they should be getting more money. Fine, it was up to them to talk to the publisher. It had nothing to do with me. I would have liked to have gotten more money too. And twice, not once, I offered a job to Jack Kirby. I said to him, ‘Jack, why don’t you work for Marvel with me?’ I was the art director at the time. I said, ‘You be the art director. I’ll just be the editor and head writer, and you’ll have that security.’ He wouldn’t do it. He didn’t want a staff job. With him, as with Ditko, I don’t see where they were unfairly treated. Jack was a great guy and so is Steve. I’m sorry anybody feels there’s any acrimony. I loved them both.”

 

[Frozenprince]

The New Gods are pretty much the most well known "DC Cosmic" concepts that aren't just random Lanterns though. They have nothing to replace them with. It's not like they get on goings nowadays, the New Gods and elements related to them like the Source (Wall) just pop up in various titles when the writers want a "cosmic" story.

Yeah but DC's magical stuff has always been the selling point. Nobody reads or really, cares, about any of the cosmic stuff other than the GL books.

It's the inverse with Marvel where the cosmic is best and nobody gives a shit about the magic.

And yeah, Stan has never tried to get Jack and Ditko's names erased. Comics fans FUCKING KNOW WHO JACK KIRBY AND STEVE DITKO are. Just because people don't know in general consciousness has less to do with anything Stan did and more to do with the fact that he's alive and shows up in a ton of popular culture.

 

[Slayven]

The New Gods are pretty much the most well known "DC Cosmic" concepts that aren't just random Lanterns though. They have nothing to replace them with. It's not like they get on-goings nowadays. The New Gods and elements related to them like the Source (Wall) just pop up in various titles when the writers want a "cosmic" story.

Remember when they tried to breath new life and revamp the concept

DC and Marvel owe me so many quarters

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Stan Lee's response to that interview was:

"I think he's gone beyond of no return," Lee said. "Some of the things he said, there is no way he could ever explain that to me. I would have to think he's either lost his mind or he's a very evil person."

 

[Schweinehund]

Not a surprise. I thought he did a bit more than that though.

 

[akira28]

I like Lightwave, but that is about it. And think about it, Kirby wanted to turn Marvel Thor and Asgard into the 4th World. Can you imagine?

They basically are that already

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I liked the ideas, the art and the inherent mythology of Kirby's Fourth World.

 

[LQX]

Jack "Salt-Man" Kirby

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

It's worth noting that before Marvel Kirby ran his own comic book studio and ran it the exact same way Marvel was run in regards to royalties, creator credit, not returning artwork etc. Kirby only had a problem with it when he wasn't the boss.

Kirby also claimed later in life the Joe Simon didn't write anything either.

 

[kswiston]

Not a surprise. I thought he did a bit more than that though.

He did. Stan Lee still writes stuff occasionally (or has in the past decade), and it still reads like the cheesy dialogue in his 60s books. As others have said, solo Kirby stuff did not read the same.

Obviously Kirby came up with all the visual designs, and likely did most of the plotting (As was Marvel's custom). Saying that he did all of the dialogue is BS though.

 

[Frozenprince]

They basically are that already

Eh since Simonson they have tried to shy away from the "We're actually aliens!" thing.

 

[Slayven]

I liked the ideas, the art and the inherent mythology of Kirby's Fourth World.

It's not bad, just the execution left A LOT to be desired. That and 2 black people on New Genesis and they still called them "The Black"

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Ditko doesnt take credit for any writing, just for plotting. And he's far fro m the only Lee collaborator to make the claim that they basically did the stories themselves and Lee plugged in dialogue after the finished art was in.

Isn't that basically the Marvel Method, as it was known? The only detail in contention is whether Lee did the plotting part before the art or not, which, given many of his collaborators say he did not... I guess draw your own conclusions from there.

Either way its obvious that Lee's cornball sensibilities were a good match for the grim, hard sci fi loving artists he worked with. Lee and Ditko was greatness. Ditko alone was rigid reading. Kirby and Lee was greatness. Kirby alone was raw, grand ideas without a heart.

And Lee alone is just awful.

Lee admitted that he plotted the later issues. Most of the second half of Ditko's ASM run has him credited as the plotter.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

It's not bad, just the execution left A LOT to be desired. That and 2 black people on New Genesis and they still called them "The Black"

Trump says things like he loves the blacks. It's love, bruh..

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Early FF is bananas.

Dr. Doom's first story involves taking The Invisible Girl hostage, and forcing the others to go back in time so that they can steal Blackbeard's treasure, which contains Merlin's jewels that he can use to take over the world. In the process, it turns out The Thing (in disguise) starts the legend of Blackbeard.

There's a plot where the fantastic four go broke because Reed lost all their money in stock trading, so Namor buys a movie studio just for kicks, and decides to produce a movie about the fantastic four. The movie is just an excuse to embarrass them so he can get with Sue, but they beat him and make the movie anyway, thus recovering their money.

Wonder who wrote those

 

[Slayven]

Early FF is bananas.

Dr. Doom's first story involves taking The Invisible Girl hostage, and forcing the others to go back in time so that they can steal Blackbeard's treasure, which contains Merlin's jewels that he can use to take over the world. In the process, it turns out The Thing (in disguise) starts the legend of Blackbeard.

There's a plot where the fantastic four go broke because Reed lost all their money in stock trading, so Namor buys a movie studio just for kicks, and decides to produce a movie about the fantastic four. The movie is just an excuse to embarrass them so he can get with Sue, but they beat him and make the movie anyway, thus recovering their money.

Wonder who wrote those

My favorite

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Not surprised.

And Stan Lee not knowing how to write characters doesn't come as a surprise. All of his writings and audio on how to write for comics are shit.

well yeah

I mean everyone know Jack was the man

same birthday as me. that's the reason

No, it's because he lived on the same block I used to!

 

[Poodlestrike]

In some universe Orion and Barda are hanging around with Captain America, and Thunderstrike never existed. What a hellish landscape.

Hey, now, Barda and Scott are great.

 

[Volimar]

Kirby was awesome and Stan has done some shady shit, but you can't take what Kirby had to say about Lee as gospel. They were on the outs a lot.

 

[Frozenprince]

Oh man early Marvel was the best. Comics code bat shit crazyness about ridiculously convoluted and insane shit.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

It's not bad, just the execution left A LOT to be desired. That and 2 black people on New Genesis and they still called them "The Black"

He created a Marvel character who's name started with The Black that ended up being pretty cool

 

[Sibersk Esto]

My favorite

Folks been struggling for years to make ff books interesting forgot that you're supposed to make everyone on the team pissed off and crazy all the time.

 

[Frozenprince]

Well Ultimates tried making Reed crazy.

That didn't go quite so well.

 

[kswiston]

He created a Marvel character who's name started with The Black that ended up being pretty cool

He also created Black Bolt

 

[Volimar]

Well Ultimates tried making Reed crazy.

That didn't go quite so well.

I just always assume he's crazy.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Salty as fuck. Stan Lee was the better business man, better luck next time Kirby.

 

[Horsemama1956]

A lot of that sounds like bullshit. This guy was always jealous\pissy about Lee.

 

[Slayven]

Kriby could also throw down with monsters

 

[Jaeger]

I actually like the New Gods, though.

*kanyeshrug*

 

[Xpike]

Kirby was just salty as fuck, it's been recorded that Stan did help create all the characters he has credit with.

 

[Blues1990]

Regardless of who did what, we can all agree that these men had contributed with creating some of the most iconic comic book characters that, for better or for worse, will be remembered for years to come.

 

[akira28]

Eh since Simonson they have tried to shy away from the "We're actually aliens!" thing.

True, but they're still basically another Marvel-DC analogue. Multi-dimensional, high-technology gods from a higher plane, with a primary evil figure who stays fucking up on Earth, meddling in everything, sitting on chairs and drinking Doom's wine.

it's never 1:1, but I read both publishers, and you can sometimes go panel for panel and see Marvel or DC doing something just like what the other is doing. Giant planet made up of parts of all the other universes where everyone has to battle it out?

 

[Shaanyboi]

Seems believable. Having your work basically stolen must suck

People atleast revered Kirby and referenced him and recognized his touch.

Think about someone like Bill Finger who was more or less ignored for much of his life and only recently was recognized for his character-defining influence on Batman.

 

[rbenchley]

With Stan Lee:
Fantastic Four
Dr. Doom
Hulk
Thor
X-Men
Black Panther
Adam Warlock
Nick Fury
Silver Surfer
Inhumans
Ant Man
Avengers

Going solo:
The Demon (very cool concept, shitty writing)
Kamandi (bad 50s sci-fi)
OMAC (just awful)
New Gods (overrated nonsense and Thanos is far superior to Darkseid, even if he is a ripoff)
Forever People (more shitty New Gods stories, but with hippies!)
Eternals (New Gods retread after the Fourth World bombed at DC)
Machine Man (only good after Nextwave)
Devil Dinosaur (trash, but once again I enjoyed the appearance in Nextwave)


Jack Kirby is a titan of the industry, but to take sole credit for Kirby & Lee Marvel creations is bullshit. Lee's writing is very bombastic and melodramatic, but it's a thousand times better than the horseshit that Kirby churned out at DC or his return to Marvel. I've always pictured their collaboration like Jobs and Wozniak at Apple. Wozniak was the technical genius, but without Jobs, the company never leaves the garage.

 

[Frozenprince]

True, but they're still basically another Marvel-DC analogue. Multi-dimensional, high-technology gods from a higher plane, with a primary evil figure who stays fucking up on Earth, meddling in everything, sitting on chairs and drinking Doom's wine.

it's never 1:1, but I read both publishers, and you can sometimes go panel for panel and see Marvel or DC doing something just like what the other is doing. Giant planet made up of parts of all the other universes where everyone has to battle it out?

Well yeah, but you can do that for literally every single thing either does. They take turns ripping each other off or just rip each other off concurrently. It's how they operate.

 

[Slayven]

With Stan Lee:
Fantastic Four
Dr. Doom
Hulk
Thor
X-Men
Black Panther
Adam Warlock
Nick Fury
Silver Surfer
Inhumans
Ant Man
Avengers

Going solo:
The Demon (very cool concept, shitty writing)
Kamandi (bad 50s sci-fi)
OMAC (just awful)
New Gods (overrated nonsense and Thanos is far superior to Darkseid, even if he is a ripoff)
Forever People (more shitty New Gods stories, but with hippies!)
Eternals (New Gods retread after the Fourth World bombed at DC)
Machine Man (only good after Nextwave)
Devil Dinosaur (trash, but once again I enjoyed the appearance in Nextwave)


Jack Kirby is a titan of the industry, but to take sole credit for Kirby & Lee Marvel creations is bullshit. Lee's writing is very bombastic and melodramatic, but it's a thousand times better than the horseshit that Kirby churned out at DC or his return to Marvel. I've always pictured their collaboration like Jobs and Wozniak at Apple. Wozniak was the technical genius, but without Jobs, the company never leaves the garage.

I agree with you on everything but Eternals. Sersi alone>>>>>>>New Gods.

And I will fight any man that shits on them.

Well yeah, but you can do that for literally every single thing either does. They take turns ripping each other off or just rip each other off concurrently. It's how they operate.

it's called "homage"

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Kriby could also throw down with monsters

Don't forget Arishem the judge, the celestial who destroys planets with a thumbs down

Or TRANSILVANE THE DEVIL PLANET

 

[Slayven]

Don't forget Arishem the judge, the celestial who destroys planet with a thumbs down

See Celestials exist on many plains of existence, what you see as a thumbs up and thumbs down is actually your mind trying to comprehend an event of cosmic importance. If you had Cosmic Awareness you will see what I mean.

 

[JasonUresti]

Kirby was just salty as fuck, it's been recorded that Stan did help create all the characters he has credit with.

Kirby did probably 80% percent on the work on the things they collaborated on, and Lee got most of the credit and the money. Marvel dicked Kirby around for decades, so yeah by the time he was in his 70s in that interview he was pretty angry and bitter about it.

Also Lee didnt get ahead just by his oqn skills, he got treated and dealt with better from the start because he had family that was tight with Timely/Marvel publisher Martin Goodman. Stan got himself a better deal because he was allowed to by Goodman, not because he was some brilliant business negotiator

 

[Ahasverus]

If he says he created things all that easily, what did he create after I left?

 

[Aiustis]

Only Stan Lee I'm familiar with is his take on DC super heroes and they were all garbage.

 

[foxuzamaki]

.

Was the thing stronger back then?

 

[Frozenprince]

it's called "homage"

"Oh shit Batman brought back Jason Todd and turned him into a bad guy while the book turned into an international thriller, well we better bring back Bucky and make him a bad guy while Cap goes on an international thriller. Nobody will notice!"

Also nothing is fucking stupider than MO-GO! THE LIVING PLANET!

 

[akira28]

it's called "homage"

I don't even think they do it on purpose. They are just different frequencies tapping from the same source it seems like.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Was the thing stronger back then?

Back then I think they had his strength tapped out at lifting 10 tons.

 

[Slayven]

Was the thing stronger back then?

No, just there been stronger characters created since. But the fantastic four actually get more powerful the longer they live because they absorbed more cosmic radiation.


Too damn late at night to be talking nerd shit.

 

[Shaanyboi]

"Oh shit Batman brought back Jason Todd and turned him into a bad guy while the book turned into an international thriller, well we better bring back Bucky and make him a bad guy while Cap goes on an international thriller. Nobody will notice!"

Also nothing is fucking better than MO-GO! THE LIVING PLANET!

fixed that for you

 

[Frozenprince]

I don't even think they do it on purpose. They are just different frequencies tapping from the same source it seems like.

I know they do it on purpose, I'v talked to writers who've worked with both that have said as such. I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. Just that it's well, standard practice.

No, just there been stronger characters created since. But the fantastic four actually get more powerful the longer they live because they absorbed more cosmic radiation.


Too damn late at night to be talking nerd shit.

It's never too late to be talking nerd shit bruh.

 

[Mighty Chin]

I don't even think they do it on purpose. They are just different frequencies tapping from the same source it seems like.

Like the Darkforce.