EzekelRAGE
Member
It allowed us to prove xam's claim w/o killing him and it was the little sister to his (fake)roleclaim.
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Ace Attorney [Mafia] |OT| Turnabout Scum
- Thread starter Sorian
- Start date
It allowed us to prove xam's claim w/o killing him and it was the little sister to his (fake)roleclaim.
Xamtheking
Member
It proved stanley wasn't lying
It in no way proved I wasn't lying
It in no way proved I wasn't lying
It proved his role, 100% I agree.
I've hit on that point before though. The reason why it was a weird decision to me was the exact circumstances of the day though. Xam was still alive and all 3 of the people he green checked were still alive too. You now had two choices in all honesty.
Kill Xam: Pro: If he ends up being scum or neutral, the back-up was probably telling the truth about their whole role because there wouldn't be two anit-town cops, that is definite.
Con: He was telling the truth but now the doubt that his scumminess (because there was a lot of it early on) was tainting the results is gone and you are left with 3 green checked players which was huge at that point in the game. Also, could probably feel free to lynch the now probably fake back-up claim
Kill Stanley: Pro: He was lying, you got scum or neutral
Con: You kill town's back-up cop and cement Xam in everyone's minds as a cop which is also going subconsciously scare them away from lynching him. It is scary to lynch a confirmed cop, even if they are evil.
Also just because people I guess always assume this just means day start and ends:
You were all kind of warned
Xamtheking
Member
Also, if WRIGHT'S DAUGHTER was a vanilla, why should inheritance be a given
Xamtheking
Member
Spec thread was great, lol
Thanks for rooting for me, Town, without your words of support I might have lost
Thanks for rooting for me, Town, without your words of support I might have lost
EzekelRAGE
Member
True about flavor I guess. Maybe making a str8 town cop woudlve been better than a back up cop? At some point they wouldve had to go head to head. Unless true town cop got killed before he could counter xam, having xam claim backup.Also just because people I guess always assume this just means day start and ends:
You were all kind of warned
Wright's daughter having no power(or any main character) isn't the same thing as assuming one sister can't be a killer when the other has flipped backup town cop. Although I never played that far into the games, so maybe something about Lana could paint her as possibly being bad in there?
Posting these without permission because I enjoyed them. Xam PMs from throughout the game in chronological order:
(I had thought he forgot but then he sent me flavor yesterday lol)
Edit: Sorry, the PM title of this one was him asking if he could write flavor for his own death.
Almost assuredly!
Night 1 was almost really really interesting guys.
This is day 2 now I think, shortly before or after he had claimed cop.
So worried about his neutral teammate
I'll talk about that win con discrepancy later (I actually didn't change it before I posted his role PM, whoops, fixing now) but that whole conversation chain was great.
#Xamxiety
#Xamxiety
#Xamxiety
Xamtheking said:
(I had thought he forgot but then he sent me flavor yesterday lol)
Edit: Sorry, the PM title of this one was him asking if he could write flavor for his own death.
Xamtheking said:
Almost assuredly!
Xamtheking said:On that noteSorian said:
KILL: Sorian
MARRY: Hyperactivity
BANG: Crab
...
INVESTIGATE: SquidyJ
KILL: TheGoddamn
Night 1 was almost really really interesting guys.
Xamtheking said:
This is day 2 now I think, shortly before or after he had claimed cop.
Xamtheking said:
So worried about his neutral teammate
Xamtheking said:
I'll talk about that win con discrepancy later (I actually didn't change it before I posted his role PM, whoops, fixing now) but that whole conversation chain was great.
Xamtheking said:
#Xamxiety
Xamtheking said:
#Xamxiety
Xamtheking said:
#Xamxiety
Nah, that would have screwed over scum hardcore. Two cops working each night would have been devastating for them even if one cop was a neutral.
Xamtheking
Member
I wonder if Town would be calling my role broken if Town won
Unbalanced and broken are two different things
But those that think it was too strong were saying that before you won so probably.
Also guys, using scum as a catch-all term for mafia and neutrals was starting to get very confusing and I think it tripped some people up when trying to sniff out Xam. It was interesting to watch because I could tell some people were getting confused and I'm not sure they were even noticing that they were confused
EzekelRAGE
Member
True. What about making Xam insane or something like that?
Think Sorian was defending the role from ppl who werent even playing the game as well. On the flip side, would you have no problems at all with the role if you were town?
Yea i may have fell into/caused that confusion.Sorian said:
At the end of the day, I guess I misjudged what the thought process would be when the back-up cop was revealed. I thought it would cast suspicion on the outed cop not cement them. I don't think I would make the neutral have a negative utility role like insane cop though because then they are pretty much a policy lynch when they were found to report incorrect results. And losing to a policy lynch they can't control would be a bad trap to set.
Ezekel, you were Vegeta, your self destruct for town did nothing. Damn it lol your brashness didn't let us read and think it through.
I personally didn't have time to even read day 7 thoroughly before I saw votes flying in. Hence my confusion about Scrafty, which thinking it through, it made sense to no longer kill you, Xam, after everyone had been checked(day 8) but it didn't make sense to kill Scrafty before you on day 7...aghhhhhhhh lol
I was lost and just wanted off the crazy train
I considered this, I even copypasted Stanley's PM into a response I was gonna make against Xam but at that point going against Xam was so scary, it was too easy for the rest of Town to be suspicious of whoever brought the Xam angle at that point. I should've trusted you FEP...I thought the same thing. Maybe if you hadn't backed off Xam and went after me I would've followed through with you.
I personally didn't have time to even read day 7 thoroughly before I saw votes flying in. Hence my confusion about Scrafty, which thinking it through, it made sense to no longer kill you, Xam, after everyone had been checked(day 8) but it didn't make sense to kill Scrafty before you on day 7...aghhhhhhhh lol
I was lost and just wanted off the crazy train
I considered this, I even copypasted Stanley's PM into a response I was gonna make against Xam but at that point going against Xam was so scary, it was too easy for the rest of Town to be suspicious of whoever brought the Xam angle at that point. I should've trusted you FEP...I thought the same thing. Maybe if you hadn't backed off Xam and went after me I would've followed through with you.
From Stanley's PM - this was part of the clue. While it's not required to, usually the PM would specify something like "Once the real sheriff dies, then you'll become the man" or something. I can understand that the cross-faction thing is weird and I probably would be blind about it for a bit too, but still.
I was coy with the alignment purposely. I believe the correct way to write a back-up is to straight up tell them that there is another town doctor or cop or whatever and when they die, you become the new town doctor/cop/etc. I think the only other time we've had a back-up in gafia though was Archer? *wonder's how Ouro wrote it, leaves to check*
EzekelRAGE
Member
lol.
*Scribbles in notepad to check for that in future games*
CrimsonFist
Member
Woof had a backup doctor too
We're secretly all here to train you to become the perfect mafia player. You're the chosen one.
Woof 1 or 2? Do you remember who had it, I want to hunt that role PM down too for science.
Woof2. Cabot was the original who never protected anyone, then Timeaisis picked it up.
I wrote that PM, I vaguely recall naming the role of who they would replace, but I'm pretty sure I didn't tell them it was Cabot.
Yup found it, you told them he would get power when the Village's Guard died.
Back-up cop redeemed slightly.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Where are the awards.
Still have a bit more work to do today so I didn't want to commit to such a long post yet.
Not that it meant anything at the time to me since I never saw a single second of Archer when I got that PM
Alright, fun stuff first:
Best Newbie- Bowlie. Most of the new players in this game were absolutely fantastic but Bowlie impressed me throughout. He PM'd me a lot and did a lot of extra work studying up on game mechanics and past gafia games while playing. Most of all though, he played his vigilante role smart. His one kill (which was Ri'Orius by the way) ended up being a wrong selection but, with no big sticking points on Day 1, he held his whip to his side and waited for night 2 before acting and that was the right move. When I saw that the vig got assigned to a new player, I was looking forward to bloodbath night 1 but he kept cool.
Best Player Placed Into a Bad Situation - SalvaPot. I think Salva played pretty well considering his two predecessors and the amount suspicion he was already in before he even started playing. He was a great fit for the de Killer role and I can only imagine how things would have gone if he had been in it from the start. Still a little bummed that we couldn't see the Engarde role grow in power but Salva did the best he could I think.
Hammer Bros. Award and Dumbest Luck - EzekelRAGE. Ezekel was fierce with this double voting power. Say what you will about his quick hammers, of which there were quite a few, but they ended up being effective at putting scum away before they could get a word in and that is a raw deal, but sometimes that needs to be the right play because with enough time, town can dissuade themselves from anything. The dumbest luck part of this has to do with two things. First, most of his hammers weren't even causes he completely believed in and I could tell he was amazed every time the scum flip showed up afterwards. Second, the night actions speak for themselves. He stole the vote of scum on N1, N2, and N4 only taking side trips on other days to steal Matt Attack's vote
Best Scum - TheGoddamn. He was pretty inactive the first day phase or two but he was really stepping it up by the end. By the time he was really putting in work, he was locked in a jail cell by Star with no vote to his name and was pretty much screwed but he was going to get dangerous soon if he had not been roleblocked that night. A shame but it was fun watching him play. Would love to see scum Goddamn 2.0.
Best Town - ScraftyDevil and StarSketch. Giving a tie because they were both great for different reasons. Scrafty was on the ball in terms of reads and deductions. She nailed scum to the wall again and again when she showed up to the thread and I don't think there was really ever a time she was off on the mark. She was also ready to go all in on Xam on the second to last day but she, unfortunately, showed up dead that morning. On the flip side, Star was on point with her PR. Jailer is hard guys, balancing being an effective doctor while not shutting down informational roles is a weird balance to maneuver and she did amazing, shutting down two scum kills one directed at Scrafty by protecting her and one directed at herself by locking away the killer Goddamn. Props to you both. My Season 5 contender for OTP.
Best Gambit - CornBurrito. His lie about the items was on point. I think every single person who looked at my game thought the fruit vendor role was either pointless or troll-ish but I knew there were good ways to play this role and Corn proved it for me. He had scum scared/hopeful for the items and I think everyone except for FEP were assuming they were real. Even Scrafty was believing that she was holding a bulletproof burger.
Best Neutral - Bodhi Gaard. Dude is high class, never once whined to me about the shitty role he got. Love this dude. He can play in my games any day.
MVP - Xamtheking. #Xamxiety We all joke that Xam is bad at mafia and his play day 1 and day 2 was very questionable to say the least but he picked it up and there is no denying that there was some skill involved in his win. He played town like a fiddle at every turn I thought he might fumble at the goal line but he kept Matt trapped in his pocket and that's all he needed for the win. Much respect regardless of any thoughts on the role. Being by yourself with no real allies is hard going, especially when you have to make it through 8 day and night phases.
---------
Here is some supplemental material:
Role Assignment and Night Actions
Planning Spreadsheet - Link killed due to me using this sheet for another game, sorry future people reading this D:
In that planning spreadsheet, you can play around with the revision history and catch the conversations between myself and Crab about balancing. There is some good stuff in there probably maybe idk lol
As for the game itself, it didn't change too much from original planning stage to final result. The first big thing Ron DeLite was actually an ordinary town member and Maya was the PR in his place. Maya was a tracker/watcher/voyeur enabler. In the original design PW did not have his watcher powers (more on that later) so Maya was actually only enabling Dahlia on the scum team. If she was lynched or killed, then Dahlia would have lost her tracking and watching powers. I conceded early on that this was a bit too trolly and the situation of scum taking a pot shot on a random town member and destroying their own watching ability would not have been fun. The role was obviously negative utility so I decided on a vote thief after initial editing which is another negative utility usually. Ezekel actually put it to maximum town effect so good for him.
As I said before, Phoenix Wright did not have any watching powers. In the original design, I had his 3 powers being commuter, bulletproof, and reflexive gossip. The bulletproof was swapped for watcher after some deliberation. Some thought that being unkillable by normal means every 2 out of 3 nights was too OP for the role. In hindsight, I actually wish I hadn't changed it. A main complaint I heard was that 2.5 kills per night phase was just too much. A lot of this design was done to mitigate this by making some players just plain harder to kill at night. PW being unkillable 2 out of 3 nights probably means RNH wouldn't have died N1 and that dynamic going forward would have made for a very different game. I did eventually concede for the watcher because it did provide town a way to have PR mitigation for the SK, something they were missing in the original design.
Another change, this game idea was actually heavily lifted from a game at another forum. (For comparison by the way, town was put into the same situation as you guys, they wrecked scum early because of bad play amongst the scum team and they were left in a 4 way with the SK cop. They correctly chose to no lynch and then got the SK in the final 3 vote). In that original iteration, scum did not actually have secret day phase communication unless one player was blackmailed. I ditched this early because as I've said, Gafia has issues with communication and I didn't want to neuter that further. I want scum in our community to learn how to communicate. The two blackmails first night thing was actually a partial way to mitigate this but once I dropped the 1 blackmail passive I kept it in because I thought it added an interesting dynamic. It made the Mia role have to always have a choice each night of who to heal. At least that was the idea before scum kept missing the blackmail
Something else that I did differently in this game (and I would do it again too, I think it worked well and it prevented anyone from being screwed based on flavor) was providing fake role PMs to all non-town members. Those can be seen below:
I think the one downfall here is I gave them fake roles that were too on the nose. That's something I am going to consider changing going forward but the idea of a full fake role for cosplay games is one I think is good and one that I will definitely do again if I run another cosplay game (quote me now).
As for the big one, Xam's role. Well, I've really said enough on that point already. All I'll really say is that I balanced this game around the idea of 3 teams, Xam being alone as a team. He had a lot of heat from the scum side. If Matt Engarde ever got that strongman kill for even a single night, the cop was blown up. Even without that, a claimed cop would be worth missing a kill or two in most cases. Unfortunately, scum, pretty much by bad luck, fumbled the blackmail mechanic the whole way through and just couldn't reach any power states. But hey, that's neither here nor there, I think we've had enough talk about that role for now and I anticipate more discussion on it in the future anyway.
Thank you all for the wonderful game. I had a great time moderating it and I hope you all had a great time playing.
Court is adjourned.
Best Newbie- Bowlie. Most of the new players in this game were absolutely fantastic but Bowlie impressed me throughout. He PM'd me a lot and did a lot of extra work studying up on game mechanics and past gafia games while playing. Most of all though, he played his vigilante role smart. His one kill (which was Ri'Orius by the way) ended up being a wrong selection but, with no big sticking points on Day 1, he held his whip to his side and waited for night 2 before acting and that was the right move. When I saw that the vig got assigned to a new player, I was looking forward to bloodbath night 1 but he kept cool.
Best Player Placed Into a Bad Situation - SalvaPot. I think Salva played pretty well considering his two predecessors and the amount suspicion he was already in before he even started playing. He was a great fit for the de Killer role and I can only imagine how things would have gone if he had been in it from the start. Still a little bummed that we couldn't see the Engarde role grow in power but Salva did the best he could I think.
Hammer Bros. Award and Dumbest Luck - EzekelRAGE. Ezekel was fierce with this double voting power. Say what you will about his quick hammers, of which there were quite a few, but they ended up being effective at putting scum away before they could get a word in and that is a raw deal, but sometimes that needs to be the right play because with enough time, town can dissuade themselves from anything. The dumbest luck part of this has to do with two things. First, most of his hammers weren't even causes he completely believed in and I could tell he was amazed every time the scum flip showed up afterwards. Second, the night actions speak for themselves. He stole the vote of scum on N1, N2, and N4 only taking side trips on other days to steal Matt Attack's vote
Best Scum - TheGoddamn. He was pretty inactive the first day phase or two but he was really stepping it up by the end. By the time he was really putting in work, he was locked in a jail cell by Star with no vote to his name and was pretty much screwed but he was going to get dangerous soon if he had not been roleblocked that night. A shame but it was fun watching him play. Would love to see scum Goddamn 2.0.
Best Town - ScraftyDevil and StarSketch. Giving a tie because they were both great for different reasons. Scrafty was on the ball in terms of reads and deductions. She nailed scum to the wall again and again when she showed up to the thread and I don't think there was really ever a time she was off on the mark. She was also ready to go all in on Xam on the second to last day but she, unfortunately, showed up dead that morning. On the flip side, Star was on point with her PR. Jailer is hard guys, balancing being an effective doctor while not shutting down informational roles is a weird balance to maneuver and she did amazing, shutting down two scum kills one directed at Scrafty by protecting her and one directed at herself by locking away the killer Goddamn. Props to you both. My Season 5 contender for OTP.
Best Gambit - CornBurrito. His lie about the items was on point. I think every single person who looked at my game thought the fruit vendor role was either pointless or troll-ish but I knew there were good ways to play this role and Corn proved it for me. He had scum scared/hopeful for the items and I think everyone except for FEP were assuming they were real. Even Scrafty was believing that she was holding a bulletproof burger.
Best Neutral - Bodhi Gaard. Dude is high class, never once whined to me about the shitty role he got. Love this dude. He can play in my games any day.
MVP - Xamtheking. #Xamxiety We all joke that Xam is bad at mafia and his play day 1 and day 2 was very questionable to say the least but he picked it up and there is no denying that there was some skill involved in his win. He played town like a fiddle at every turn I thought he might fumble at the goal line but he kept Matt trapped in his pocket and that's all he needed for the win. Much respect regardless of any thoughts on the role. Being by yourself with no real allies is hard going, especially when you have to make it through 8 day and night phases.
---------
Here is some supplemental material:
Role Assignment and Night Actions
Planning Spreadsheet - Link killed due to me using this sheet for another game, sorry future people reading this D:
In that planning spreadsheet, you can play around with the revision history and catch the conversations between myself and Crab about balancing. There is some good stuff in there probably maybe idk lol
As for the game itself, it didn't change too much from original planning stage to final result. The first big thing Ron DeLite was actually an ordinary town member and Maya was the PR in his place. Maya was a tracker/watcher/voyeur enabler. In the original design PW did not have his watcher powers (more on that later) so Maya was actually only enabling Dahlia on the scum team. If she was lynched or killed, then Dahlia would have lost her tracking and watching powers. I conceded early on that this was a bit too trolly and the situation of scum taking a pot shot on a random town member and destroying their own watching ability would not have been fun. The role was obviously negative utility so I decided on a vote thief after initial editing which is another negative utility usually. Ezekel actually put it to maximum town effect so good for him.
As I said before, Phoenix Wright did not have any watching powers. In the original design, I had his 3 powers being commuter, bulletproof, and reflexive gossip. The bulletproof was swapped for watcher after some deliberation. Some thought that being unkillable by normal means every 2 out of 3 nights was too OP for the role. In hindsight, I actually wish I hadn't changed it. A main complaint I heard was that 2.5 kills per night phase was just too much. A lot of this design was done to mitigate this by making some players just plain harder to kill at night. PW being unkillable 2 out of 3 nights probably means RNH wouldn't have died N1 and that dynamic going forward would have made for a very different game. I did eventually concede for the watcher because it did provide town a way to have PR mitigation for the SK, something they were missing in the original design.
Another change, this game idea was actually heavily lifted from a game at another forum. (For comparison by the way, town was put into the same situation as you guys, they wrecked scum early because of bad play amongst the scum team and they were left in a 4 way with the SK cop. They correctly chose to no lynch and then got the SK in the final 3 vote
). In that original iteration, scum did not actually have secret day phase communication unless one player was blackmailed. I ditched this early because as I've said, Gafia has issues with communication and I didn't want to neuter that further. I want scum in our community to learn how to communicate. The two blackmails first night thing was actually a partial way to mitigate this but once I dropped the 1 blackmail passive I kept it in because I thought it added an interesting dynamic. It made the Mia role have to always have a choice each night of who to heal. At least that was the idea before scum kept missing the blackmail Something else that I did differently in this game (and I would do it again too, I think it worked well and it prevented anyone from being screwed based on flavor) was providing fake role PMs to all non-town members. Those can be seen below:
I think the one downfall here is I gave them fake roles that were too on the nose. That's something I am going to consider changing going forward but the idea of a full fake role for cosplay games is one I think is good and one that I will definitely do again if I run another cosplay game (quote me now).
As for the big one, Xam's role. Well, I've really said enough on that point already. All I'll really say is that I balanced this game around the idea of 3 teams, Xam being alone as a team. He had a lot of heat from the scum side. If Matt Engarde ever got that strongman kill for even a single night, the cop was blown up. Even without that, a claimed cop would be worth missing a kill or two in most cases. Unfortunately, scum, pretty much by bad luck, fumbled the blackmail mechanic the whole way through and just couldn't reach any power states. But hey, that's neither here nor there, I think we've had enough talk about that role for now and I anticipate more discussion on it in the future anyway.
Thank you all for the wonderful game. I had a great time moderating it and I hope you all had a great time playing.
Court is adjourned.
EzekelRAGE
Member
Hammer Bros. Award and Dumbest Luck - EzekelRAGE. Ezekel was fierce with this double voting power. Say what you will about his quick hammers, of which there were quite a few, but they ended up being effective at putting scum away before they could get a word in and that is a raw deal, but sometimes that needs to be the right play because with enough time, town can dissuade themselves from anything. The dumbest luck part of this has to do with two things. First, most of his hammers weren't even causes he completely believed in and I could tell he was amazed every time the scum flip showed up afterwards. Second, the night actions speak for themselves. He stole the vote of scum on N1, N2, and N4 only taking side trips on other days to steal Matt Attack's vote
LOL, I didn't even notice I hit scum most nights with my power.
CornBurrito
Member
Aww thanks.
And yeah my biggest shock was when Scrafty started saying she never realized how to use the burger. I thought she had been playing along until that point, and then I realized she thought my lies were real.
I heard through the grapevine behind the scenes that Scrafty was a little upset with me for not telling her how to use the burger. Made me chuckle a bit
CornBurrito
Member
I also lucked out in Xam being immune to getting my items, and Roy dying when I tried giving him one. Because I think both of them wouldn't have played along. I was hoping Roy would but the doodoo head said he probably wouldn't have.
But his fake command was TAIL and the flavor even says he is better than everyone else here. That's good for something. Plus that one time that Gumshoe died and Missile spent the remainder of his life sad and alone outside of the courthouse.
I didn't at all anticipate you getting the final step aside from just completely steamrolling town and being able to use it as a coup de grâce to just completely demoralize them at the last turn. I did expect for you to spend at least a night or two as bulletproof though and potentially get the strong kill for one go. Even without those though, my goal was to balance you without any of the passives with them just allowing you to gradually over power town with good play so at base you were a roleblocker, godfather, watcher/tracker, and ordinary which I think was a good team for this set up.
What hurt is that the blackmail role was always under suspicion and of the 3 blackmails, you guys hit the only two people in the game who were immune. And this was before Xam even claimed cop, losing a blackmail on him because he claimed and you all decided to go that route instead of killing him was something I considered but yeah, there was a slight element of luck here and it did not go in your favor.
I like to think Xam is not a COMPLETE monster and is now taking care of the adorable doge.
Damon Gant does seem like a dog person.
You're not up to AA4 yet but my last flavor makes a lot of sense to people who have played it. Missile is fine in the real world, no worries.
Xamtheking
Member
I don't know about AA Missile
But I will take good care of GT Missile
CornBurrito
Member
I mean even without all that shit you still were a godfather, which is a fairly solid role.
Well that was fun, Xam did play it weirdly enough for him to be trusted. How many times I posted that blindly following him was silly? Several I think. But again, I was playing scum so when I flipped it only fortified his position, not bad at all.
I have to agree the game does required a lot of luck for the roles to work as intended, but even then I think it was fairly well balanced, nice job Sorian.
I have to agree the game does required a lot of luck for the roles to work as intended, but even then I think it was fairly well balanced, nice job Sorian.
I was scared by that power!
By Night 2 I decided to use it so I could have another shot by Night 4 when things would start to get interesting (that's what I thought). I absolutely didn't want to kill someone who was active, I would feel pretty bad if someone who was heavily contributing to the discussion flipped town.
In the end, I was left with some choices (the only mafia amongst them was Drago), and I picked Ri'Orius. Sorry!
My only regret was not having enough knowledge to play this game. It was super fun, Sorian, thank you. And it urged me to play those games I've been meaning to for years, so that's cool too.
-----
I had already decided on roleplaying Xavier Woods in WWE Gafia. I read more about him and learned that his trombone is named Francesca, great coincidence.
StarSketch
Banned
Wow, I was worried that I actually guarded the wrong person N1 and N2, Nice to know that was very effective.
Lol
Lol
CornBurrito
Member
Honestly I would have been way too stressed if I had your role. There's a lot of pressure in using it.
I guess we are done here.
yeah i'm just glad it's over.