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AFL (Aussie Rules) 2013 |OT| See the Bombers Shoot Up, Up

Yagharek

Member
The obvious implication is another report is to come - hence the term 'interim'.

If the AFL are going to lay charges, it needs to be for actual rule breaking, not 'sailing too close', so to speak. At the moment, they haven't even charged them with doping. Given that is what has been the concern all season, you would think that charges might actually include something relating to that.

The fact they don't have any charges either suggests they can't prove it, it never happened, or they are running the trial in the court of public opinion and going out early.
 

AxeMan

Member
The charge sheet tells you what Essendon been charged with, I'm sure you know that though and read it.

Bringing the game into disrepute, conduct unbecoming or prejudice against the interest of the AFL. That's the rule Essendon broke
The charge sheet outlines how they brought the game into disrepute.

You're incorrect when saying there is no charge for actual drug taking. Read page 3 section (i).
AFL covered themselves with section (ii) just after it though

Reading the charge sheet it's pretty obvious that Essendon have brought the game into disrepute
Essendon of course have right of reply and they'll get it.
 

HolyCheck

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The charge sheet tells you what Essendon been charged with, I'm sure you know that though and read it.

Bringing the game into disrepute, conduct unbecoming or prejudice against the interest of the AFL. That's the rule Essendon broke
The charge sheet outlines how they brought the game into disrepute.

You're incorrect when saying there is no charge for actual drug taking. Read page 3 section (i).
AFL covered themselves with section (ii) just after it though

Reading the charge sheet it's pretty obvious that Essendon have brought the game into disrepute
Essendon of course have right of reply and they'll get it.

you mean the draft charge sheet that was put forward last monday and has since been re written, and agreed upon by Essendon and the AFL, but coincidently when the AFL looked bad today was leaked? (and not the agreed upon and revised one)
 
Essendon will get charged heavily by the AFL. If they can charge Melbourne for something that isn't tanking but looks like tanking. Then they are definitely going to go after Hird and Essendon for this.

I worry the AFL will do a deal with the Bombers to keep premiership points though.
 

AxeMan

Member
you mean the draft charge sheet that was put forward last monday and has since been re written, and agreed upon by Essendon and the AFL, but coincidently when the AFL looked bad today was leaked? (and not the agreed upon and revised one)

Regardless of which charge sheet you want to read it's still damning and hard to argue that Essendon doesn't breach that rule

I don't believe that the revised statement was ever accepted by Essendon. Can you show me where Essendon have said that they accepted it?

I think the Essendon asked the AFL to make some changes, AFL made the revised statement. Essendon still didn't like it and the AFL got sick of Essendon's belligerent attitude so said 'nup, back to the original'

AFL has wanted to resolve this for ages, Essendon doesn't want to play ball

I thought I'd show the differences - sorry for poor formatting. The main difference being in the last part about the administration of drugs.
Original said they were given banned drugs or the club doesn't know if they gave banned drugs

Revised says there was a risk they were given banned drugs and the club doesn't know if they were given banned drugs.


Revised has:
a) removal of the word 'significant'

n) removal of the words 'created or'

o) complete removal of this point "failed to adequately protect the health, welfare and safety of the players"

Revised had these points
i) the Club failed to adequately protect the health, welfare and safety of the players

(ii) there was an unacceptable risk that players may have been administered substances that were prohibited by the AFL Anti-Doping Code and the World Anti-Doping Code; and

(iii) the Club is unable to determine whether players were administered substances prohibited by the AFL Anti-Doping Code and the World Anti-Doping Code.

Original had these points
(i) players were administered substances that were prohibited by the AFL Anti-Doping Code and the World Anti-Doping Code; alternatively

(ii) the Club is unable to determine whether players were administered substances prohibited by the AFL Anti-Doping Code and the World Anti-Doping Code.
 

HolyCheck

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Regardless of which charge sheet you want to read it's still damning and hard to argue that Essendon doesn't breach that rule

I don't believe that the revised statement was ever accepted by Essendon. Can you show me where Essendon have said that they accepted it?]

essendon sites down. but it was said today by essendon both hird and paul little in their press conferences, and then hosted on the essendon website, they uploaded it first as they were shitty the AFL leaked out the one from last week.

so you admit, original says they were given illegalz? revised says theres a chance but not certain.

Essendon has been saying for ages they want this held in a publicbloody hearing. not behind closed doors, they're more than happy for it to be resolved, but in a fair hearing. nobody at essendon is denying poor governance.
 

AxeMan

Member
It's here
http://www.essendonfc.com.au/news/2013-08-21/proposed-afl-revised-charges


"Essendon Football Club has released the following revised statement of grounds as proposed by the AFL to the club on Friday 16 August."

Doesn't say that they accepted this version. I can't be bothered to listen to them again but if they did say they accepted it it doesn't change much if anything at all

I don't admit anything. Just highlighting that the first charge sheet said you did administer banned drugs or you could have. The second said there was the risk you did and could have

Whether the AFL say you did or didn't administer banned drugs the breach of the rule still holds.

ASADA will say whether players took banned drugs later regardless of what the AFL have in their charge sheet now
 

Yagharek

Member
Essendon will get charged heavily by the AFL. If they can charge Melbourne for something that isn't tanking but looks like tanking. Then they are definitely going to go after Hird and Essendon for this.

I worry the AFL will do a deal with the Bombers to keep premiership points though.

On the first point, I dont think that's a foregone conclusion. Essendon have signalled today they are going down the angle that the AFL commission can't be considered impartial. If they go down that course it may well end up in the courts and the way AFL has been acting as judge/jury/executioner, they might make an interesting go of it.

As far as points go, that depends on injunctions I bet. They may not have time to do that this year, and doing it next year will be a stretch.
 

HolyCheck

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The AFL wanted Essendon to accept a series of penalties which included exclusion from the 2013 finals, the loss of draft picks for two years, a fine of more than $2.5 million and a suspension of 12 months for coach James Hird.

But the club, incensed by the AFL's release of highly detailed and personal information in the extraordinarily detailed charges laid against the club on Wednesday, is intent on fighting the penalties of the scale proposed, believing the package excessive, with Hird unwilling to accept a 12-month suspension.

The Dons also have placed a higher premium on draft picks than the finals, believing the loss of first- and second-round picks for two seasons would be potentially crippling. Central to the disagreement over penalties has been Hird's unwillingness to suffer a penalty that would imply that he supported the inadvertent doping of players.
Advertisement

Fairfax Media understands that Essendon, under the leadership of chairman Paul Little, was willing to entertain the possibility of giving ground on missing the finals this year, without accepting that the club had cheated or systematically doped. Essendon was willing to acknowledge - and receive punishments - for its governance failures, but, as Little suggested, will resist a sentence that it believes out of proportion when no doping charges have been proven or infraction notices issued.

Under the penalties discussed by the AFL and Essendon, it understood that the club also faced suspensions for Dr Bruce Reid and football operations chief Danny Corcoran, but that Mark Thompson was facing only a fine.

The AFL proposed that Essendon lose its first- and second-round draft choices this year and in 2014 - a penalty the club now considers excessive, given that the league also wanted it to miss finals and for three of its four senior staffers to be suspended, with Hird receiving the biggest penalty.

Hird would be out of contract when the proposed suspension ceased, having joined the club as senior coach on a four-year deal.

Sources said the penalties offered - and which were being discussed on Tuesday night, before the release of charges against Essendon, Hird, Reid, Corcoran and Thompson - were more detailed, but that the essence of them was loss of draft picks and premiership points, putting them out of this year's finals and a

significant fine. The Bombers could be under financial pressure as a result of the scandal if members and/or sponsors leave, plus the legal and other costs incurred.

Essendon is incensed that the AFL's charges detailed private information.

Little, despite his fighting words, has shown a willingness to negotiate with the AFL, but the release of the charges - and particularly the specific nature of allegations - has raised the temperature significantly.

The AFL is braced for a legal response from Essendon, which may seek to challenge the jurisdiction of the AFL Commission. Essendon does not believe the AFL and Andrew Demetriou have followed due processes, with Hird having called for an independent panel to hear his case rather than the AFL's governing body.

Essendon would be mindful of the catastrophic impact losing draft picks had on Carlton in 2002 when the Blues were punished for cheating the salary cap.

It is believed the AFL has not proposed that Essendon would be prevented from trading back into the draft - via the trading of players - a critical detail. The club would not be restricted from signing free agents either.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dons-rejected-penalties-20130821-2sbsq.html#ixzz2cbVgimik
.
 

AxeMan

Member
Central to the disagreement over penalties has been Hird's unwillingness to suffer a penalty that would imply that he supported the inadvertent doping of players.
:/

Seems to fit with my thinking that Essendon didn't accept either charge sheet
 

Dead Man

Member
Gotta fell for the players here. Reading through that document, it's not a great look for the club or the sport.

Yeah, some of them were probably in a hard spot, but for senior players to allow themselves to be injected with shit they couldn't even be told the name of is pretty weak.
 

jambo

Member
dTNJil.jpg



Friday August 23rd
Collingwood vs. West Coast @ The MCG

Saturday August 24th
North Melbourne vs. Hawthorn @ Etihad Stadium
Adelaide vs. Melbourne @ AAMI Stadoium
Geelong vs. Sydney @ Simonds Stadium
Carlton vs. Essendon @ The MCG
Fremantle vs. Port Adelaide @ Patersons Stadium

Sunday August 25th
St Kilda vs. Gold Coast @ Etihad Stadium
Greater Western Sydney vs. Richmond @ Skoda Stadium
Brisbane vs. Western Bulldogs @ The Gabba


Round 22 Teams
 

jambo

Member
My tips for this weekend

Collingwood (by 25 points)

Hawthorn
Adelaide
Geelong
Carlton
Fremantle

Gold Coast
Richmond
Brisbane


I'd love for Port to get up in the west, but I just don't see it happening unfortunately. Would not surprise me at all if the Roos came out and beat Hawthorn and Footscray will most likely fuck my tips up, again!
 
Yeah, some of them were probably in a hard spot, but for senior players to allow themselves to be injected with shit they couldn't even be told the name of is pretty weak.

Yeah the senior blokes should know better. I would be straight out of that club after reading all these claims.

I can't see how Hird can continue on next year. Either Andy D might be in strife here.
 
My tips for this weekend

Collingwood (by 25 points)

Hawthorn
Adelaide
Geelong
Carlton
Fremantle

Gold Coast
Richmond
Brisbane


I'd love for Port to get up in the west, but I just don't see it happening unfortunately. Would not surprise me at all if the Roos came out and beat Hawthorn and Footscray will most likely fuck my tips up, again!

I'm tipping the same but I'm tipping the Saints to get over the Suns with no confidence. There are 3 50/50 games for me. Blues vs Bombers, Brissie vs Dogs and Saints vs Suns. I'm 1 point in front in the tipping at work, trying to win $1,000.00. This will either make or break me.

Next weeks tipping isn't exactly easy either.
 

HolyCheck

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My tips for this weekend

Collingwood (by 25 points)

Hawthorn
Adelaide
Geelong
Carlton
Fremantle

Gold Coast
Richmond
Brisbane


I'd love for Port to get up in the west, but I just don't see it happening unfortunately. Would not surprise me at all if the Roos came out and beat Hawthorn and Footscray will most likely fuck my tips up, again!

I need to do well this week.

60 behind on the margin, 1 point behind. sitting in 2nd place.

I had a lead of about 8 a few weeks ago :(
 

Chris R

Member
So nice to be able to watch this live in the USA again (LIVE now on Fox Sports 2), it just sucks that we only got the final few weeks :(
 
So nice to be able to watch this live in the USA again (LIVE now on Fox Sports 2), it just sucks that we only got the final few weeks :(

It's been live this entire time on Fox Soccer Plus! Though that's probably a lot more niche channel than FS2 will end up being.

Wish they were showing North v. Hawthorn though. I'd prefer that in HD than on my tiny AFLTV stream :eek:.
 

Chris R

Member
It's been live this entire time on Fox Soccer Plus! Though that's probably a lot more niche channel than FS2 will end up being.

Wish they were showing North v. Hawthorn though. I'd prefer that in HD than on my tiny AFLTV stream :eek:.

Ah ok, I didn't get Fox Soccer Plus, just Fox Soccer. I do get FS2 though so now I can watch (even if the game isn't the most competitive!)
 
Good win by the Cats. Never really challenged. Loved Motlop's mark, hunt it down if you guys haven't seen it. Should come close to winning MOTY.

http://www.afl.com.au/video/2013-08-24/mark-of-the-year

Edit: Can't believe the score in Perth. Freo giving Port a hiding.

Edit 2: With the tips (footytips.com.au), do we have to tip the finals too?

Don't believe so.

Are we still giving prizes to the winner? I'm feeling more confident now.

ess v carl. what a game!

Last 10 minutes was crazy

Amazing last quarter by the Dons. What a game. Even more disappointing now that they won't be playing finals but Carlton (who don't deserve it) will be.
 
Grabbed a 1 point lead on the competition at work. 2 people are equal second, 1 behind me. Then another person is 2 behind me. Still anyone's comp. Just hoping I can hang on for 1st or 2nd.
 

Andiie

Unconfirmed Member
Grabbed a 1 point lead on the competition at work. 2 people are equal second, 1 behind me. Then another person is 2 behind me. Still anyone's comp. Just hoping I can hang on for 1st or 2nd.

Nice. I'm only in the 2 comps. The usual home comp and the other online. I'm equal first with my 11 yr old brother (that's if Brisbane hold on, if Bullies get up a third joins us). I haven't been able to shake him all year and everyone else has caught up 'cause of my poor last half.
 
Nice. I'm only in the 2 comps. The usual home comp and the other online. I'm equal first with my 11 yr old brother (that's if Brisbane hold on, if Bullies get up a third joins us). I haven't been able to shake him all year and everyone else has caught up 'cause of my poor last half.

Doggies almost pinched it. 1 more week to separate you and your brother. Tough tipping next week too.
 

HolyCheck

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Doggies almost pinched it. 1 more week to separate you and your brother. Tough tipping next week too.

Bloody woke up in a cold sweat today and changed my tip to bulldogs too :(

now 1 point behind the lead (would have been even if i'd stayed with lions as i'd already made back 1 point this weekend :(
 

-Stranger-

Junior Member
Bombers Verdict is in.

12 month ban for James Hird
6 month ban for Danny Cocoran
30k fine for Bomber Thompson
Essendon banned from the 2013 finals series.
Loss of Draft picks in 2013/2014

Now we can get on with the season!
Carlton, North Melbourne, Brisbane & Adelaide still alive in terms of finals hopes!


Being a North supporter, I'm hoping Carlton loses this Saturday!
 

jambo

Member
Also the club was fined $2 million.

Wow. Hopefully we knock off Carlton next week to let North get in to the finals.
 

Omikron

Member
Bombers Verdict is in.

12 month ban for James Hird
6 month ban for Danny Cocoran
30k fine for Bomber Thompson
Essendon banned from the 2013 finals series.
Loss of Draft picks in 2013/2014

Now we can get on with the season!
Carlton, North Melbourne, Brisbane & Adelaide still alive in terms of finals hopes!


Being a North supporter, I'm hoping Carlton loses this Saturday!

Personally I think that 'result' comes off very much like a wrist slap, particular for the staff involved.

Purely political outcome for both the AFL and Essendon.
 

fisheyes

Member
North are definitely the team I would most like to see fall into the finals, so I hope it happens.

Also, Simon Goodwin will step into the caretaker role for the Bombers this weekend. I wonder if the club will look to appoint a caretaker coach, with a eye to bring Hird back for 2015, or if this is effectively treated as a sacking would be and they will be looking for a proper coach for 2014 and beyond.
 

Omikron

Member
North are definitely the team I would most like to see fall into the finals, so I hope it happens.

Also, Simon Goodwin will step into the caretaker role for the Bombers this weekend. I wonder if the club will look to appoint a caretaker coach, with a eye to bring Hird back for 2015, or if this is effectively treated as a sacking would be and they will be looking for a proper coach for 2014 and beyond.

They have already held a press conference announcing he will be back.
 

Yagharek

Member
Not the best result, but we all knew it was coming so my anger is restrained.

What I would like to see is proof one way or the other that they were not doping cheats. Intentional or accidental - whatever the final ASADA report says. That will determine my care factor about the sport in future.

As far as who gets 8th spot now, Carlton are shit and will be a worthless inclusion. North could scare any other team in the 8, and probably should have been there if the few close results had been in their favour.

2014 though - Essendon will be out for blood.
 

AxeMan

Member
They have already held a press conference announcing he will be back.

I'm hearing that the club are getting ready to offer Hird an extension.

On the penalties, I would have like them to have been stripped of all points this year so they are wooden spooners.
Also I'd strip Watson's brownlow.
A case can be made to strip them of points for next year or give them a severe handicap, say -30 to start with.

Adelaide's penalty for nothing in comparison to this was harsher


What I would like to see is proof one way or the other that they were not doping cheats. Intentional or accidental - whatever the final ASADA report says. That will determine my care factor about the sport in future.

That's disappointing. Why do you feel that way?
 

fisheyes

Member
They have already held a press conference announcing he will be back.

Ah, missed that one.

Honestly, I'm not sure I'd bother. Its not like he's been amazing since becoming coach, and sure there will be a bit of stigma attached to his position now. But what do I know?
 

Omikron

Member
For reference, the Adelaide penalties...

The outcomes of the Kurt Tippett contract investigation have been anounced by the AFL Commission chairman Mike Fitzpatrick at AFL House, after a marathon hearing.
  • Adelaide has been fined $300,000 and prohibited from the first two rounds of the 2013 draft and from gaining father-son picks at that draft. The club can use first or second round picks if they are obtained by a trade.
  • Steven Trigg has been fined $50,000 and given 12 months suspension, meaning he cannot attend games or training or have any dealings with an AFL club.
  • John Reid has been given a similar 12 months suspension.
  • Phil Harper received a two months sentence on the same terms.
  • Kurt Tippett was suspended from the pre-season competition and from 11 AFL matches, with another 11 matches suspended for five years.
 

AxeMan

Member
For reference, the Adelaide penalties...

The outcomes of the Kurt Tippett contract investigation have been anounced by the AFL Commission chairman Mike Fitzpatrick at AFL House, after a marathon hearing.
  • Adelaide has been fined $300,000 and prohibited from the first two rounds of the 2013 draft and from gaining father-son picks at that draft. The club can use first or second round picks if they are obtained by a trade.
  • Steven Trigg has been fined $50,000 and given 12 months suspension, meaning he cannot attend games or training or have any dealings with an AFL club.
  • John Reid has been given a similar 12 months suspension.
  • Phil Harper received a two months sentence on the same terms.
  • Kurt Tippett was suspended from the pre-season competition and from 11 AFL matches, with another 11 matches suspended for five years.

Yep, harsher apart from the monetary aspect which doesn't mean much when every club leeches on the AFL's teat

Remember that Adelaide didn't breach the salary cap, didn't make bogus payments and even if they did it wouldn't have breached the cap.
Only involved 1 player, his manager and a couple of backend football staff.

Don's got off lighty
 
Also the club was fined $2 million.

Wow. Hopefully we knock off Carlton next week to let North get in to the finals.

North will still need to beat us this week at the G. I would love to see it happen so that Carlton don't fall into the finals when they don't deserve it. North imo do deserve it, sorta.
 
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