vpance
Member
Laura Bailey who voices her is not trans so Abby is not trans. Those are the rules.
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All The Last of Us 2 leaks/spoilers in here and nowhere else.
- Thread starter DonJorginho
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Laura Bailey who voices her is not trans so Abby is not trans. Those are the rules.
Labolas
Member
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
12 year old looking anime girls with big tiddies
vpance
Member
Is it? So only trans VAs can voice trans characters?
In 2020, if you don’t want to be cancelled then yes.
In other news, Kratos will become black in the next GoW.
Labolas
Member
Wow I guess James Earl Jones and Phil Lamarr are going to get canceled then. Gotta keep segregation strong in 2020.
Yoboman
Member
Also said:
"Game does not have Big PP"
"Eat yummy snack"
"Why are we doing x thing?"
"Where did they say to go?"
"Where did Yara go?" After just seeing her shot
"Abby doesnt like bridges just like me"
"Floor gang"
Also beat the game with zero deaths
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I mean... floor gang 4 lyfe
Yoboman
Member
The Lev and Yara scenes were important because it illustrates that she is grasping for some purpose in her life. She fulfilled her goal of revenge but she was left empty, all of her focus had been on that and she had pushed her relationships to the side. She was involved in some cause with the WLF in a city she didn't care about. She and Owen had forgotten to "look for the light" as Fireflies. She becomes like Joel in all she has left in the world is a young surrogate as the cycle of violence takes a toll on her and everyone around her.
I liked Abbys arc overall. It could have used some trimming and I think it could have tied in and connected with Ellies story better. It did feel to separated to me
I would have trimmed Owen out even though i liked his character. The bits getting to him felt like the aimless fluff. I would have had Ellie kill Yara as the "impact death" instead of Owen and Mel
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Bryank75
Banned
If they wanted to make this game a 10/10 story-wise, I would eliminate most of Abby's part of the story.... no playing as her at the start, you'd play from Joels perspective. You'd play as her later, just seeing the flashback of her father die and then you'd play a cut down version of her story with no Lev side-story (it's irrelevant for the plot unless they want the duo for a sequel...which will not go down well) just base her gameplay part around all her friends dying, her finding the bodies and then it builds up to her and Manny against 'The Sniper'........
Manny dies, she is traumatized and then finds Owen and the other one dead at the Aquarium.
Then it goes back to Abby at the theater..... she holds Jesse hostage (Tommy wouldn't be there yet)..... jesse gets shot but not killed..... Abby has the fight against Ellie.
Abby is about to kill Dina as in the original plot but she is shot..... camera pans to Tommy who just arrived. She crawl towards the knife she dropped, still chasing her revenge. Ellie walks over and pulls out Joels revolver but just before she shoots, she hands it to Tommy..... he executes her leaving Ellies hands clean.
I think it is a tighter story, has more meaning and less confusion.
Manny dies, she is traumatized and then finds Owen and the other one dead at the Aquarium.
Then it goes back to Abby at the theater..... she holds Jesse hostage (Tommy wouldn't be there yet)..... jesse gets shot but not killed..... Abby has the fight against Ellie.
Abby is about to kill Dina as in the original plot but she is shot..... camera pans to Tommy who just arrived. She crawl towards the knife she dropped, still chasing her revenge. Ellie walks over and pulls out Joels revolver but just before she shoots, she hands it to Tommy..... he executes her leaving Ellies hands clean.
I think it is a tighter story, has more meaning and less confusion.
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Yoboman
Member
That sounds really bad and boring
Bryank75
Banned
I'd have preferred it... I think the game was needlessly long and Abby was still a terrible person. Without Lev, she would have killed Dina..... that is her true self. She deserved to die because she was a bloodthirsty vengeful person. Tommy taking the burden of killing Abby with Joels gun is much more poetic and leaves Ellie with a father-figure at the end.... it gives meaning to the flashback of her shooting with Tommy too.
It also leaves all the best parts in the game...while removing the bloat. Ellie can still see Joel playing the guitar before she hands the gun to Tommy... everything just works better that way IMO.
Yoboman
Member
Actually cuts out the best parts of Abbys story
Your version is just a stock standard shot to the finish line, with only consequences for Abbys tale of revenge and none for Ellies.
You missed the point of the flashback to Joel. Its not about Ellie keeping her hands clean by giving the gun to another person. Its about forgiveness. When Ellie forgave Joel, she did so because she understood the depths that love will drive you to. She also understood to some extent that Abby went to those depths as well. And she was better than both of them because she could forgive where they could not
vpance
Member
Whether or not any one character was good or bad or deserved to live or die was not that interesting to me, which is my main beef with the storyline. Everyone does bad things in the apocalypse after all. But they spent so much time setting that up with Abby and her relationship with other side chars to try and get a bigger emotional payoff at the end.
Maybe I’d like it more with a better execution. The end part was certainly dragged out with all the walk and talk segments and a surprising number of combat portions, some good some annoying.
Maybe I’d like it more with a better execution. The end part was certainly dragged out with all the walk and talk segments and a surprising number of combat portions, some good some annoying.
J3nga
Member
Not a single event playing as Abby made think oh "I totally get her character now", I didn't hate her either, I just didn't care about her at all by the end and I think ND wanted that the player felt something for her.
Yoboman
Member
While I think its clear some people were empathetic to her I dont see it at all. And I feel like the goal of her was actually a subtle condemnation of Joel. Even if you do good things after, you can't erase the bad you've done before.
I dont think ND did as anything as simple as try to make any one character seem altruistic. If you hate Abby or empathise with her, both are correct. If you hate Joel and Ellie or love Joel and Ellie. Both can be correct
I personally see Abby as a fantastically realised villain, but not everybody sees that and that is fine
J3nga
Member
Nonsense. first game clearly sets the goal for you to love them so that in the second one they could do bad shit to them and you feel like crap about, if you hate them then you probably would be cheering during Joel scene which isn't what Naughty Dog was aiming for. They clearly stated first game about love, second about hate, violence and blah blah blah.
Yoboman
Member
There are definitely people who expressed adamant hate of playing as Joel in the first game. I remember the discussion threads on this forum about the ending distinctly, and there was also a rage at Naughty Dog for making you kill the doctors without a choice.
Most people obviously loved him, but those who didn't weren't wrong either.
These are morally grey characters at best
Cleared_Hot
Member
Hahaha yup. Acting is only allowed if you are the character you are playing.
Jon Neu
Banned
It’s just a dumb poorly written way of still trying to force you to empathize with her and then beat you in the head with the “see? She is just like Joel! Points of view and stuff. Profound!!”.
Eiknarf
Banned
There was never going to be a cure in the first game!
Let’s say at the end of the first game Joel doesn’t kill Dr Jerry.
Dr Jerry successfully cuts Ellie’s head open and makes a cure. Sure Jerry could have FOUND the cure and cured maybe one person. But how would he and the group extrapolate that into enough to make for the rest of the world? You need a science manufacturing plant and TONS of ingredients
There’s only four companies that make penicillin today in real life! How were they going to manufacture 10,000 vials of the cure in a post apocalyptic world?
Let’s say at the end of the first game Joel doesn’t kill Dr Jerry.
Dr Jerry successfully cuts Ellie’s head open and makes a cure. Sure Jerry could have FOUND the cure and cured maybe one person. But how would he and the group extrapolate that into enough to make for the rest of the world? You need a science manufacturing plant and TONS of ingredients
There’s only four companies that make penicillin today in real life! How were they going to manufacture 10,000 vials of the cure in a post apocalyptic world?
Ulysses 31
Member
And that's assuming the Fireflies would be passing around the cure rather than holding on to it for power.
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ZZZZ
Member
Halo is Back
Member
I can't believe people are still defending that ending 
Goes half way around the country to murder one person , gets spared twice, abandons her good relationship with Dina and finally threatens a child with a switch blade but only after the LAST second she's like "heyyyy this is actually wrong, it won't bring Joel back"! They have the "balls" to kill Joel but not the balls to commit to their own story of revenge. Ellie "broke the cycle" yet she still looses everything? What kind of message is that????
Overall 6/10 game
Goes half way around the country to murder one person , gets spared twice, abandons her good relationship with Dina and finally threatens a child with a switch blade but only after the LAST second she's like "heyyyy this is actually wrong, it won't bring Joel back"! They have the "balls" to kill Joel but not the balls to commit to their own story of revenge. Ellie "broke the cycle" yet she still looses everything? What kind of message is that???? Overall 6/10 game
I can't believe people are still defending that ending
Overall 6/10 game
I can't believe people are hating on the ending my only explanation is that people clearly don't get it or they simply ignore the talk with Joel.
I mean yeah, you can call everything "bad writing" if you don't like it, but it's simply not that.
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Ulysses 31
Member
You can also question why she doesn't use the machine gun she gets lore wise at the final fight, why even give Abby a fighting chance if she's serious about getting revenge.I can't believe people are still defending that ending
Overall 6/10 game
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This. Naughty dog didn't want to let you feel simpathy for anyone. They just wanted to show you a different side of the story and let you decide what to feel. Everything Abby does is believable. Abby gets her end of the story by letting Ellie live, but Ellie does not. That's why she goes to finish the Job. In the moment she gets the Joel Flashback she realises, that Forgiving someone is far greater than taking revenge. Going through all of Seattle and killing nearly everybody involved in Joels death didn't do anything for her and she was sure, that killing Abby wasn't changing it either.
Remembering that her forgiving Joel is what made her live again is exactly why she let Abby live.
It's incredible writing, that you have to understand before you can really admire it.
That's why people who actually studied writing, are absolutely loving this game including Journos and Writers. ND forgot that, that's not really the majority of gamers. It's basically one of these Oscar Movies that many people simply don't get and get dozens of oscars but do shit at box office.
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Halo is Back
Member
Nice counter argument. Thanks for pointing out the obvious to me. That second ending was completely unnecessary and served no purpose. She had already moved on with Dina on the farm. If you want to put that message of ending the cycle of violence and forgiveness then that would have been the perfect moment to say NO to Tommy. But ok, lets say the game is actually about he consequences of seeking out revenge. Ellie ends up sparing Abby's life yet she STILL loses everything even though she did the right thing. What kind of message does that send to the player? Why not kill Abby? You could still have that theme of revenge bad and it would at least made sense thematically.
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She actually didn't. She had PTSD, couldn't sleep or eat. I don't think you can call that "moved on".
That's what she did. But she couldn't get any Rest and wanted to find a way to get out of it, that's why she deided to go to Abby.
What would she gain through killing her? She didn't gain anything by killing everyone of her friends. Abby realised it before Ellie that taking Revenge isn't helping or working. She lost any meaning by killing Joel.
The ending wasn't about Revenge, but about forgiving Joel. Ellie decided she could forgive Joel for what he did, so why not forgive Abby?
Halo is Back
Member
Again, she could have forgiven Abby on the farm. She finally had a taste of the good life and it could have been a great reminder that she lost almost everything, Tommy is the one who tried to get her back into it. I still deal with PTSD from my previous abusive relationship of 3 years but I have learned to forgive and move on too without seeking petty revenge on her and then stop at the last minute.
She had to face Abby to really forgive her. The Moment she remembers with Joel is the reason, it shows she will never have the chance to tell him.
Forgiving someone is the first step, telling or showing that person is the second.
Ulysses 31
Member
How do we know it's forgiveness rather than the realization that her cycle of revenge is causing more misery and grief than it's worth?
HotPocket69
Banned
Doneski bros
Bryank75
Banned
Have 3 left but I'll come back for them.... coins, cards and journal entries left.Doneski bros
vpance
Member
The thing is at this point most of us have seen tons of storylines from movies, shows and games where characters are morally gray. For Abby to be a normal person who also loves and has friends is not surprising. But ND just kept ramping up that point endlessly to “convert” you. If your emotions went back and forth on this then you probably enjoyed the plot.
It really feels like the Crash of post-apoc storylines. Another heavy handed and over the top emotional jerk around.
joe_zazen
Member
naw, she knows Abs is going to turn after eating her digits. Abbey must have bad gingivitis so blood mixing is guaranteed. I mean how often did Abs brush, let alone floss? Ellie was just tired, probably low blood sugar.
so yeah, ending is about low blood sugar and dental hygiene.
dcx4610
Member
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Abby character and what was ND's intention.
Unlike a lot of people, I actually liked Abby and at first was wondering if the game was going to make you choose who dies at the end. I was dreading that because I was really starting to like her. That kinda changed when she ran off with the Saraphites. Her story arc and drive just wasn't interesting or make much sense at that point and I just wanted to get back to Ellie's story.
Going back to the original point of this post though is what is Abby supposed to represent? Her appearance and several moments in the game seem to hint at something that may or may not be there.
1. She is a biological female that works out like a Crossfit girl and there is nothing more to the story than that. They do walk by a gym once with other soldiers working out and there are several comments about her working out throughout the game. She simply found a purpose in helping Yara and Lev in the same vein that Joel suddenly had a purpose with saving Ellie.
2. She is a biological female that is transitioning to male. This is the one I keep thinking about. If you pay attention, she is getting bigger throughout the game. You could just say those were just gains from working but it could be transitioning. WLF has a lot of resources and doctors and she could be getting treatment. She seemed to relate to Lev and she literally left and killed WLF members to save him. At one point, it's mentioned "They are your people" and she replies, "You are my people". Just a throw away line or a hint that she is trans?
The anal sex scene and her appearance. She basically did not have any breasts at this point and Owen went straight for anal sex. It was rumored that the programmers were asked to design the characters in a way that wouldn't offend the trans community. Did this also apply to the sex scene where they simply made it an anal scene for inclusion or again, is there something more to it?
And finally, Abby's haircut and appearance change at the very end. Did the group that captured her cut her hair kinda like the Nazis would to the Jews to prevent lice? OR, did they cut her hair because she looked like a biological man and was transitioning? Did the group cut it as an insult since she was protecting a trans? Did she do it herself to fit in with the other men? This would mirror the shaving of Lev's head. Her body also changed and she had very little muscle mass left. Was this due to simply not getting to work out, or was she off the transitional drugs?
Final note - This is the girl that motion capped Abby. She is a Crossfit girl:
A lot of Crossfit girls look like this so it simply may be a case that Abby is nothing more than a workout enthusist but seeing all of the hints, the developers leaving the game and so on, I just wonder if there is more there. At the very least, I think ND wanted ambiguity to get people talking.
Unlike a lot of people, I actually liked Abby and at first was wondering if the game was going to make you choose who dies at the end. I was dreading that because I was really starting to like her. That kinda changed when she ran off with the Saraphites. Her story arc and drive just wasn't interesting or make much sense at that point and I just wanted to get back to Ellie's story.
Going back to the original point of this post though is what is Abby supposed to represent? Her appearance and several moments in the game seem to hint at something that may or may not be there.
1. She is a biological female that works out like a Crossfit girl and there is nothing more to the story than that. They do walk by a gym once with other soldiers working out and there are several comments about her working out throughout the game. She simply found a purpose in helping Yara and Lev in the same vein that Joel suddenly had a purpose with saving Ellie.
2. She is a biological female that is transitioning to male. This is the one I keep thinking about. If you pay attention, she is getting bigger throughout the game. You could just say those were just gains from working but it could be transitioning. WLF has a lot of resources and doctors and she could be getting treatment. She seemed to relate to Lev and she literally left and killed WLF members to save him. At one point, it's mentioned "They are your people" and she replies, "You are my people". Just a throw away line or a hint that she is trans?
The anal sex scene and her appearance. She basically did not have any breasts at this point and Owen went straight for anal sex. It was rumored that the programmers were asked to design the characters in a way that wouldn't offend the trans community. Did this also apply to the sex scene where they simply made it an anal scene for inclusion or again, is there something more to it?
And finally, Abby's haircut and appearance change at the very end. Did the group that captured her cut her hair kinda like the Nazis would to the Jews to prevent lice? OR, did they cut her hair because she looked like a biological man and was transitioning? Did the group cut it as an insult since she was protecting a trans? Did she do it herself to fit in with the other men? This would mirror the shaving of Lev's head. Her body also changed and she had very little muscle mass left. Was this due to simply not getting to work out, or was she off the transitional drugs?
Final note - This is the girl that motion capped Abby. She is a Crossfit girl:
A lot of Crossfit girls look like this so it simply may be a case that Abby is nothing more than a workout enthusist but seeing all of the hints, the developers leaving the game and so on, I just wonder if there is more there. At the very least, I think ND wanted ambiguity to get people talking.
emmerrei
Member
I was reading some of the old spoiler, now that i've finished the game, and a lot of theories are very likely to be true and changed later in development. Like the Chinese Guy who took the place of Joel, and they made him die early in the most useless and unsatisfaction way. Vote on how they managed the Joel death 2/10.
A lot of cutscenes are well made, but in the long run feels really heavy. Infact, i reluctant if make another run+ or stop it there. What always saved this game is the gameplay and graphics. Rewatching other people reaction to certain situation, i encountered pewdiepie playing in the open area before the end, and i realized how this game has really good gunfight, who last basically nothing, especially if you've set-up normal difficulty. This game miss waves, except some rare circumstances, you kill 3-4 enemies and ends here. Missed opportunity. And if in the first game, somehow if you wanted some ignorant shoot session, you could always play the good online, here? There's nothing. i don't know, create atleast a secondary gamemode, where you get throwed in a map and waves of enemies comes, 7years of development, and the gameplay is reduced to 3-4 enemies for 100km/squared maps.
Gameplay and GunShoot sounds 10/10 , Amount of actually gameplay 2/10
About all the Agenda injected in the game, i didn't cared too much. Didn't even realized Lev?(lili) was a girl, i just assumed, considering the tematics of this game, that it was just some sort of sick pratice of that people. At the end of the day, the story progress from the first chapter is basically zero. What about the virus? In the whole world, no progress? A story of vendetta, also my game i done with RPG Maker when i was 16yo, it was about the vengeance. (And i'm not even kidding) 10/10
A lot of cutscenes are well made, but in the long run feels really heavy. Infact, i reluctant if make another run+ or stop it there. What always saved this game is the gameplay and graphics. Rewatching other people reaction to certain situation, i encountered pewdiepie playing in the open area before the end, and i realized how this game has really good gunfight, who last basically nothing, especially if you've set-up normal difficulty. This game miss waves, except some rare circumstances, you kill 3-4 enemies and ends here. Missed opportunity. And if in the first game, somehow if you wanted some ignorant shoot session, you could always play the good online, here? There's nothing. i don't know, create atleast a secondary gamemode, where you get throwed in a map and waves of enemies comes, 7years of development, and the gameplay is reduced to 3-4 enemies for 100km/squared maps.
Gameplay and GunShoot sounds 10/10 , Amount of actually gameplay 2/10
About all the Agenda injected in the game, i didn't cared too much. Didn't even realized Lev?(lili) was a girl, i just assumed, considering the tematics of this game, that it was just some sort of sick pratice of that people. At the end of the day, the story progress from the first chapter is basically zero. What about the virus? In the whole world, no progress? A story of vendetta, also my game i done with RPG Maker when i was 16yo, it was about the vengeance. (And i'm not even kidding) 10/10
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Ulysses 31
Member
sendit
Member
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Abby character and what was ND's intention.
Unlike a lot of people, I actually liked Abby and at first was wondering if the game was going to make you choose who dies at the end. I was dreading that because I was really starting to like her. That kinda changed when she ran off with the Saraphites. Her story arc and drive just wasn't interesting or make much sense at that point and I just wanted to get back to Ellie's story.
Going back to the original point of this post though is what is Abby supposed to represent? Her appearance and several moments in the game seem to hint at something that may or may not be there.
1. She is a biological female that works out like a Crossfit girl and there is nothing more to the story than that. They do walk by a gym once with other soldiers working out and there are several comments about her working out throughout the game. She simply found a purpose in helping Yara and Lev in the same vein that Joel suddenly had a purpose with saving Ellie.
2. She is a biological female that is transitioning to male. This is the one I keep thinking about. If you pay attention, she is getting bigger throughout the game. You could just say those were just gains from working but it could be transitioning. WLF has a lot of resources and doctors and she could be getting treatment. She seemed to relate to Lev and she literally left and killed WLF members to save him. At one point, it's mentioned "They are your people" and she replies, "You are my people". Just a throw away line or a hint that she is trans?
The anal sex scene and her appearance. She basically did not have any breasts at this point and Owen went straight for anal sex. It was rumored that the programmers were asked to design the characters in a way that wouldn't offend the trans community. Did this also apply to the sex scene where they simply made it an anal scene for inclusion or again, is there something more to it?
And finally, Abby's haircut and appearance change at the very end. Did the group that captured her cut her hair kinda like the Nazis would to the Jews to prevent lice? OR, did they cut her hair because she looked like a biological man and was transitioning? Did the group cut it as an insult since she was protecting a trans? Did she do it herself to fit in with the other men? This would mirror the shaving of Lev's head. Her body also changed and she had very little muscle mass left. Was this due to simply not getting to work out, or was she off the transitional drugs?
Final note - This is the girl that motion capped Abby. She is a Crossfit girl:
A lot of Crossfit girls look like this so it simply may be a case that Abby is nothing more than a workout enthusist but seeing all of the hints, the developers leaving the game and so on, I just wonder if there is more there. At the very least, I think ND wanted ambiguity to get people talking.
How did you conclude the sex scene was anal? That position exposes both holes. The camera did not pan down so we as players can make a definitive conclusion on what type of intercourse this was.
dcx4610
Member
Supposedly the script says it was anal. I don't know if it's true but I'm basing it off that and her painful reaction.
sendit
Member
Prefer not to comment on speculation. Can you provide a source/link to the script? I would like to get to the bottom of this.
dcx4610
Member
It was on Reddit. Who knows how accurate it was. I can't find the comment now.
I just listened to the spoilercast with Neil, Ashley and Troy and I think I have most of my answers now. Abby is a biological female that just works out. Neil even mentions how they go out of there way to show a gym to give you a reason why she is so buff. She's simply playing the protector role to Lev like Joel did to Ellie.
There's also this solid tweet by Neil basically shitting all over the "leaks" and false narratives. I just thought that maybe there was more to the story that they were hinting at but I guess not.
Eiknarf
Banned
In the game Abby definitely says to Owen, “Hey, I’m pushing 185”-
Don’t know if that’s referring to her weight or how much she benches...etc But the point is, she’s getting buff so she can beat the shit out of Joel.
As for the sex scene... it wasn’t anal. Owen flipped Abby around and he was quickly inside her. That doesn’t happen that easily with anal sex
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sobaka770
Banned
AngryJoe is having a stupid hateboner for the way Joel died and never recovered. Keeps talking stupid things he read online like probability of vaccine is not 100% as if it has any relevance to the plot. Basically he's experiencing hatred which is by design and I bet he will justify his emotional hijack with every argument he can find to say story is stupid.
AJ is entertaining but he has a shallow understainding of games and narratives, mostly focusing on gameplay, which probably is ok for his audience. His movie reviews are pretty awful for that reason.
His review will be pretty worthless as he never gave the game a chance, I expect 6-7.
NYR
Member
Egyptians can build the pyramids without the tools we have today but you’re biggest concern is modern industrial manufacturing lol
Game literally shows them turning power plants back on, it’s not like they are in the Middle Ages. They don’t need to develop a billions vials today, enough to start an exponential wave. One factory leads to two, two leads to four, four leads to eight, etc.
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NYR
Member
Well said. People who wanted “Joel and Ellie fuck shit up 2” would never be happy with anything. Any deep understanding of the new story was lost the second Joel died and they realized the game they wanted would never happen.
With that said, there were a ton of plot holes so I get some of the criticism.