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[squicken]

In so far as the read option is concerned, you might find this good reading (its more college oriented but it applies). I ran across it a couple of days ago as I putting this thread together and was going to use some of the content in one of the scheme categories. The article is from 2010 but hell I'm honestly learning a ton in the process! Considering the discussion of whether the read option is here to stay or a "fad", I think it will invariably be integrated into NFL offenses moving forward and defenses are going to have to account for it.

http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2010/9/13/1677324/defending-the-zone-read-option

EDIT: Here's a link off to the smartfootball post mentioned:

http://smartfootball.com/defending-...zone-read-athleticism-and-the-scrape-exchange

Thanks for the links

I wish the Oregon-Stanford game was on the internet somewhere. I remember Standford's LBs just playing it really sound the whole game. It seems like a big key is keeping the guards and center off the second level. Would a 4-3 that covers the guards be a better fit than a 3-4 where LBs are asked to play downhill?

 

[mr2xxx]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/nfl-draft/2012/lewin-career-forecast-2012

According to the Lewin career forecast for rookie QBs. Here are the best candidates since late 90's I'm assuming.

Name of player: Year- DYAR
Robert Griffin 2012 2530
Philip Rivers 2004 2476
Drew Brees 2001 2190
Colt McCoy 2010 2092
Carson Palmer 2003 1973
Peyton Mann. 1998 1784
Andrew Luck 2012 1749
Chad Penn. 2000 1678
Brady Quinn 2007 1518
Jason Campbell 2005 1506

*Russell Wilson 2012 2650

Wilson was excluded due to his size, transferring JR-SR year, not a 2nd rd. or better prospect but according to this forecast he was an elite talent.


The Lewin forecast is an interesting tool that is used for Qbs that get drafted in the first 2 rounds. It has its flaws as every other form of NFL statistical analysis does but it does give us some interesting projections to talk about especially if the forecast and scouting reports differ greatly. Can't wait for the 2013 analysis.

 

[Draxal]

Great Thread.

One minor nitpick, Gus Malzahn is now the head coach at Auburn (and should be for a while, Chizik was expensive to buy out). Hell that whole wild cat section seems a bit out dated.

I think we should categorize the teams a little bit, by mentioning the coaching trees (aka either the Walsh tree of the Parcells tree), and maybe listing the teams by the style of offense / and if they have a 4/3 base or a 3/4.

I think we need some more college football input (aka domination of the spread so cfbgaf needs to step in esp with Chip Kelly in the pros).

 

[mastershake]

So I'm curious how you guys think the league will adapt to all the new formations and running QBs. My observations with the Rams vs SEA and SF was that they always played zone, but they sat back vs Kap while blitzing Wilson. The other wrinkle was it was 2 deep vs SF, but just one deep vs SEA

I think the NFC West will be the most interesting division next year by far. I'd bet most if not all of the defensive coordinators in the NFC will be watching whats going on over there. Even if they aren't in your division you could have the same thing happen this year and all 3 read option teams make the post season(assuming RGIII comes back healthy and they still run lots of read option). We saw what happens when a D Coordinator gets caught flat footed against a capable read option team (capers) and it wasn't pretty! I know some are looking to some of the more brilliant minds in the NFL to come up with ways to scheme against the read option but i honestly think the best stuff will come from within. The 9ers and Seahawks both get to play against well run read option teams with the added benefit of being able to practice against it.

It's a pretty interesting dynamic because both teams have to figure out a way scheme out the read option while having enough wrinkles in their own stuff that it still works in a copy cat league.

 

[Lonestar]

Gonna need to set aside 10 pages for Nick Saban's guide to Defense (which means, fundamentally, to brain your opponent with a large mallet), with 1 page set aside to Nick Saban's guide to Oversigning. Optional page for "He made their ass quit"

 

[cdyhybrid]

I think the NFC West will be the most interesting division next year by far. I'd bet most if not all of the defensive coordinators in the NFC will be watching whats going on over there. Even if they aren't in your division you could have the same thing happen this year and all 3 read option teams make the post season(assuming RGIII comes back healthy and they still run lots of read option). We saw what happens when a D Coordinator gets caught flat footed against a capable read option team (capers) and it wasn't pretty! I know some are looking to some of the more brilliant minds in the NFL to come up with ways to scheme against the read option but i honestly think the best stuff will come from within. The 9ers and Seahawks both get to play against well run read option teams with the added benefit of being able to practice against it.

It's a pretty interesting dynamic because both teams have to figure out a way scheme out the read option while having enough wrinkles in their own stuff that it still works in a copy cat league.

It helps that Pete and Harbaugh both had to play against Chip Kelly/Mike Bellotti's Oregon offenses every year. They've seen it for a long time already. The easy way to stop it is when you can consistently get penetration by your D-line. You aren't able to read the DE to decide whether to hand off if he's already a foot away from you, or if your center gets pushed back into you. However, it's hard to have that much of an athletic advantage in the pros.

 

[Slizz]

We can talk CFB too right? Why is Cover-2 the go-to coverage for most teams?

I'm a Canes fan and I hate how a simple slant or seam route from a slot WR or TE can gash the Cover-2 every time.

There is always a soft cushion after about 3 seconds. Yeah, you need to get pressure but if you consistently can't why keep running that scheme?

 

[peteykirch]

We can talk CFB too right? Why is Cover-2 the go-to coverage for most teams?

I'm a Canes fan and I hate how a simple slant or seam route from a slot WR or TE can gash the Cover-2 every time.

There is always a soft cushion after about 3 seconds. Yeah, you need to get pressure but if you consistently can't why keep running that scheme?

Cover 2 can make average defenders look much better. Having the safeties so deep off the line of scrimmage pretty much always keeps the play in front of them. It'll concede short stuff in order to prohibit the deep ball.

 

[Slizz]

Cover 2 can make average defenders look much better. Having the safeties so deep off the line of scrimmage pretty much always keeps the play in front of them. It'll concede short stuff in order to prohibit the deep ball.

Ugh, I'd way rather go man and press coverage. Rush 4, QB spy if possible and lock up the WR's.

Safeties are always having to make tackles for the Canes.

 

[Lonestar]

We can talk CFB too right? Why is Cover-2 the go-to coverage for most teams?

I'm a Canes fan and I hate how a simple slant or seam route from a slot WR or TE can gash the Cover-2 every time.

There is always a soft cushion after about 3 seconds. Yeah, you need to get pressure but if you consistently can't why keep running that scheme?

Well, Cover 2's weaknesses are the middle and the empty zone behind the CB's and in front of the Safeties, along the sideline.

So, without quality middle linebackers or speedy DB's, those openings will burn the Cover 2.

 

[cdyhybrid]

We can talk CFB too right? Why is Cover-2 the go-to coverage for most teams?

I'm a Canes fan and I hate how a simple slant or seam route from a slot WR or TE can gash the Cover-2 every time.

There is always a soft cushion after about 3 seconds. Yeah, you need to get pressure but if you consistently can't why keep running that scheme?

It's hard to say specifically without watching the tape, but generally that defense will prevent big plays, with the general philosophy being to force the offense to string together a number of smaller plays to move down the field. Increasing the number of plays they have to run increases the opportunities for them to make a mistake (turnover, holding, etc.). Generally, these defenses bank on forcing opponents to work hard to move down the field, and stiffening up near the end zone to force field goals instead of allowing touchdowns.

It could also be a personnel issue. If you don't have the corners to play man on an island, the extra safeties over the top will help them if they get burned.

 

[Slizz]

Well, Cover 2's weaknesses are the middle and the empty zone behind the CB's and in front of the Safeties, along the sideline.

So, without quality middle linebackers or speedy DB's, those openings will burn the Cover 2.

It's hard to say specifically without watching the tape, but generally that defense will prevent big plays, with the general philosophy being to force the offense to string together a number of smaller plays to move down the field. Increasing the number of plays they have to run increases the opportunities for them to make a mistake (turnover, holding, etc.). Generally, these defenses bank on forcing opponents to work hard to move down the field, and stiffening up near the end zone to force field goals instead of allowing touchdowns.

It could also be a personnel issue. If you don't have the corners to play man on an island, the extra safeties over the top will help them if they get burned.

Good stuff. It's clearly personnel with the Canes, weak ILB and virtually no rush from the front 4. I thought we had good speed and cover corners though...

 

[peteykirch]

Ugh, I'd way rather go man and press coverage. Rush 4, QB spy if possible and lock up the WR's.

Safeties are always having to make tackles for the Canes.

It depends, in College, the Cover 2/Tampa 2 can work much better because well the players aren't Professionals, QBs don't have pin point laser accuracy, and receivers can run sloppy routes. So it's not like short passing plays are automatic.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Good stuff. It's clearly personnel with the Canes, weak ILB and virtually no rush from the front 4. I thought we had good speed and cover corners though...

Any zone defense will get picked apart if you can't generate pressure with your front 4. You can't cover forever, eventually the receivers will find an open spot. And like Lonestar said, unless your MLB can cover and play in space, TEs/slot WRs/inside WR routes will be open all day.

 

[bluemax]

It helps that Pete and Harbaugh both had to play against Chip Kelly/Mike Bellotti's Oregon offenses every year. They've seen it for a long time already. The easy way to stop it is when you can consistently get penetration by your D-line. You aren't able to read the DE to decide whether to hand off if he's already a foot away from you, or if your center gets pushed back into you. However, it's hard to have that much of an athletic advantage in the pros.

Pretty much this. Go back and watch the first couple of years of Kelly as the offensive coordinator at Oregon when they would play USC, or watch the BCS MNC game of Oregon vs Auburn where Nick Fairley kept ruining the Oregon offensive line.

The exact opposite of that would be shit, I think it was the Jets and Washington this year but I feel that's not right. Where the Jets kept blitzing 6 or 7 people and getting beat every single time.

It depends, in College, the Cover 2/Tampa 2 can work much better because well the players aren't Professionals, QBs don't have pin point laser accuracy, and receivers can run sloppy routes. So it's not like short passing plays are automatic.

The Tampa 2 is absolutely terrible against modern college offenses. Go watch USC vs Arizona, USC vs Oregon or USC vs Stanford from this year, or USC vs Oregon/Stanford from last year to witness how bad the Tampa 2 is against modern football.

 

[Lonestar]

Yeah, I always found the Cover 2 was for protecting the sidelines, substandard CB's, and most specifically, against offenses that run the ball to the outside alot, use the RB's as receivers in the flats, or in the screen game.

So, if your opponent is a finesse run team, or a team that overuses it's RB (probably because it's a less talented team and it's best player is it's RB), Cover 2 is a good way to go.

I've wondered if Cover 2 would be a usuable defense to counter the Oregon/Malzahn system of quick runs to the outside (as long as you have stout DT's in the middle to cover the dive)

 

[bluemax]

Yeah, I always found the Cover 2 was for protecting the sidelines, substandard CB's, and most specifically, against offenses that run the ball to the outside alot, use the RB's as receivers in the flats, or in the screen game.

So, if your opponent is a finesse run team, or a team that overuses it's RB (probably because it's a less talented team and it's best player is it's RB), Cover 2 is a good way to go.

I've wondered if Cover 2 would be a usuable defense to counter the Oregon/Malzahn system of quick runs to the outside (as long as you have stout DT's in the middle to cover the dive)

Maybe but I dunno. I mean part of the problem for USC this year was horrid tackling. They had people in the right spots to make plays at times but the tackling was just so bad that they failed.

I still have my doubts though.

 

[mastershake]

Well, Cover 2's weaknesses are and the empty zone behind the CB's and in front of the Safeties, along the sideline.

Which is typically one of the more difficult throws to make, right?

It helps that Pete and Harbaugh both had to play against Chip Kelly/Mike Bellotti's Oregon offenses every year. They've seen it for a long time already. The easy way to stop it is when you can consistently get penetration by your D-line. You aren't able to read the DE to decide whether to hand off if he's already a foot away from you, or if your center gets pushed back into you. However, it's hard to have that much of an athletic advantage in the pros.

So we are back to square one, in the pros at least? SF/SEA will be even better read option teams next year.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Which is typically one of the more difficult throws to make, right?

I suppose. I guess it depends on your definition of difficult. It requires good accuracy and timing/anticipation, and a decent arm. Generally, the throws that are regarded as the hardest - and what are usually called "NFL throws" - are the deep outs to the sideline, which require timing, accuracy, and a strong arm. They have a high probability of getting picked off if the throw is late or off target or lacks velocity.

 

[Lonestar]

Maybe but I dunno. I mean part of the problem for USC this year was horrid tackling. They had people in the right spots to make plays at times but the tackling was just so bad that they failed.

I still have my doubts though.

Yeah, quality tackling is important to everyone. Defense 101, and sadly, there's still alot of bad/non-tackling in football. Wonder if the abuse of the refs flags for hitting has caused this.

Which is typically one of the more difficult throws to make, right?

Yeah, that sideline throw is all about timing, or if the safety on that side of the field is fast enough to get over there. The greatest weakness is the middle of the field, where TE's/slot WR's can make MLB's look foolish.

Cover 2 in depth
just seeing it from Google, maybe already posted below.

 

[LJ11]

So I'm curious how you guys think the league will adapt to all the new formations and running QBs. My observations with the Rams vs SEA and SF was that they always played zone, but they sat back vs Kap while blitzing Wilson. The other wrinkle was it was 2 deep vs SF, but just one deep vs SEA

It sounds glib, but nearly all of the offensive plays they generated came off physical and mental errors by the Rams terrible FS. I'm wondering how important that's going to be now. If teams have to commit a lot more men to the LoS, how important will safety play be? You need one guy who can hover around the LoS and sort of be a joker or whatever it is called, and another that can cover ground in the back end

Look at most of the teams that lost in the playoffs, garbage safety play. Even the Niners almost got done in because of their safety play. They're becoming like shortstops in baseball, rare commodity, you don't notice their play unless they're constantly fucking up but they're doing a lot if they're doing their job. Look at the impact Troy and Reed had when they were at the top of their game, complete game changers.

Edit: Mike Pettine said it best a couple of years ago in a NYT article, I'd rather coach against NFL teams than some of these spread HS teams. NFL just wasn't ready for this stuff, need to study the college game, go talk to Boise State or TCU coaches who get it done with inferior talent. You can't completely eliminate it, it's a numbers game after all and conceptually similar to the boot/zone game Shanahan made famous. I'm sure teams will adjust a bit, but when you have a legit pass option you're going to have to pick your poison. Also, I've noticed a lot of these QBs, Kap included, making the wrong reads a lot (mostly handing off when they should keep), so there's even more room for improvement on that end.

 

[eznark]

Look at most of the teams that lost in the playoffs, garbage safety play. Even the Niners almost got done in because of their safety play. They're becoming like shortstops in baseball, rare commodity, you don't notice their play unless they're constantly fucking up but they're doing a lot if they're doing the job right way. Look at the impact Troy and Reed had when they were at the top of their game, complete game changers.

Look at the Packers with Collins

 

[mastershake]

I suppose. I guess it depends on your definition of difficult. It requires good accuracy and timing/anticipation, and a decent arm. Generally, the throws that are regarded as the hardest - and what are usually called "NFL throws" - are the deep outs to the sideline, which require timing, accuracy, and a strong arm. They have a high probability of getting picked off if the throw is late or off target or lacks velocity.

I thought it was difficult because you have to get it past the CB but you can't just float it cause of the deep safety. So you have to be accurate, well timed, get it over/past the CB and down before the safety gets there which requires some velocity. I always thought this one qualified as an NFL throw as well... just spit ballin here, obviously!

 

[cdyhybrid]

I thought it was difficult because you have to get it past the CB but you can't just float it cause of the deep safety. So you have to be accurate, well timed, get it over/past the CB and down before the safety gets there which requires some velocity. I always thought this one qualified as an NFL throw as well... just spit ballin here, obviously!

It is an "NFL throw", but depending on how far down the field you're throwing (and how late the safety is) you can make it without gunning it in there, which is where the timing and anticipation come in.

 

[Lonestar]

I thought it was difficult because you have to get it past the CB but you can't just float it cause of the deep safety. So you have to be accurate, well timed, get it over/past the CB and down before the safety gets there which requires some velocity. I always thought this one qualified as an NFL throw as well... just spit ballin here, obviously!

No, you pretty much got it. Tough throw for meh QB's, but it's free yards to decent QB/WR tandems, and not the free 3-4 yards, but free 15-20 yards.

I figure, though, if the defense doesn't worry about the middle of your offense (the TE/Slot WR), then the Safeties will already shade each side of the field to take away this throw. So work the middle to open up the sideline. Strategery.

 

[LJ11]

Look at the Packers with Collins

Right. Champ took lumps during the playoffs, but the safety play made him look worse than actually was if that's even possible.

ND completely shutdown Kap and Ault's O a couple of years ago, that's a game to go back to, betting they just sold out, barely remember it but it wasn't much of a game, complete beat down. Ault lit up Boise pretty good though and they had two NFL lineman on that squad. Would be fun to go back and watch some of this stuff.

 

[yankeehater]

Great job on the op FV. I am really glad to see lj posting here. Hopefully this thread will grow to the point that one day we wont need the you people thread.

 

[bluemax]

Which is typically one of the more difficult throws to make, right?



So we are back to square one, in the pros at least? SF/SEA will be even better read option teams next year.

Well, I don't think Seattle is as read option heavy as people like to believe. They're still gonna try and run it 20 times a game with Marshawn Lynch. For them its more of "we have a guy who can make plays outside the pocket and we will show the element to keep you honest".

There used to be a really good blog breaking down USC football, and one of the things that the guy highlighted that Norm Chow would do and that I think Pete has learned to do are plays that go against your tendencies. Basically show that you can do something out of a formation you don't normally do it out of just to keep the defense honest.

That being said, I think Chris Ault is probably gonna make a shit ton of money as a consultant to NFL teams.

Right. Champ took lumps during the playoffs, but the safety play made him look worse than actually was if that's even possible.

ND completely shutdown Kap and Ault's O a couple of years ago, that's a game to go back to, betting they just sold out, barely remember it but it wasn't much of a game, complete beat down. Ault lit up Boise pretty good though and they had two NFL lineman on that squad. Would be fun to go back and watch some of this stuff.

Another good game to watch would probably be that LSU vs Oregon season opener from few years back. Oregon fumbled a boat load but that was because of how much LSU dominated them physically. I think that LSU defense had a shit ton of NFL talent on it.

Edit: This game, http://espn.go.com/ncf/recap?id=312460099

 

[Lonestar]

I've wondered if McElwain was a disciple of Ault's, cause when he came to Alabama back in 2008, that was the one major change he added, and it's been a staple since.

Really is a pretty good setup, as it's play action is much better than the standard shotgun playaction play.

 

[bluemax]

I've wondered if McElwain was a disciple of Ault's, cause when he came to Alabama back in 2008, that was the one major change he added, and it's been a staple since.

Really is a pretty good setup, as it's play action is much better than the standard shotgun playaction play.

In 2007 McElwain was the OC at Fresno State a team in the same conference as Nevada. It is possible he learned a thing or two from having to face the Wolfpack.

Just looking at Wikipedia and I was correct in remembering that the 2005 Hawaii Bowl with Nevada and UCF was probably the first time I really saw the Pistol.

 

[LJ11]

Yeah, I remember the Oregon/LSU game, another beat down.

 

[etiolate]

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/27/3792740/pistol-offense-nfl-redskins-rg3

Here's an article on the Pistol that deals a little with its use in the NFL. It deals with Greg Roman and his visit with Coach Ault in Nevada, and then goes over the combination of zone blocking with the pistol set with the Redskins, and then the same thing with the Niners in their 2 TE Diamond set.

 

[timetokill]

Great thread, some quality discussion here already. Looking forward to more.

 

[eznark]

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/27/3792740/pistol-offense-nfl-redskins-rg3

Here's an article on the Pistol that deals a little with its use in the NFL. It deals with Greg Roman and his visit with Coach Ault in Nevada, and then goes over the combination of zone blocking with the pistol set with the Redskins, and then the same thing with the Niners in their 2 TE Diamond set.

Wow, SBNation adopted that atrocious Polygon style? Terrible.

 

[Goro Majima]

Great thread! I'm about half way through the OP and there's a bunch of things I didn't know about.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Does anyone know much about Ezekiel Ansah,the DE from BYU?I've seen him mocked anywhere from the top 10 to the end of the 1st.

 

[Lonestar]

Great thread, some quality discussion here already. Looking forward to more.

Just as long as we keep out the standard Rah Rah we all have for our respective teams. Not sure how long that'll last, but keeping on the x's and o's, strategies and examples, will keep me around. Always interested in learning new things to watch for on gamedays.

 

[Talon]

Look at most of the teams that lost in the playoffs, garbage safety play. Even the Niners almost got done in because of their safety play. They're becoming like shortstops in baseball, rare commodity, you don't notice their play unless they're constantly fucking up but they're doing a lot if they're doing their job. Look at the impact Troy and Reed had when they were at the top of their game, complete game changers.

Edit: Mike Pettine said it best a couple of years ago in a NYT article, I'd rather coach against NFL teams than some of these spread HS teams. NFL just wasn't ready for this stuff, need to study the college game, go talk to Boise State or TCU coaches who get it done with inferior talent. You can't completely eliminate it, it's a numbers game after all and conceptually similar to the boot/zone game Shanahan made famous. I'm sure teams will adjust a bit, but when you have a legit pass option you're going to have to pick your poison. Also, I've noticed a lot of these QBs, Kap included, making the wrong reads a lot (mostly handing off when they should keep), so there's even more room for improvement on that end.

It's not like good safeties have ever been a commodity in this league. It's rare to get a guy like Reed or Dawkins that last a good decade playing at an elite level.

To me, the read option perfectly exploits this movement towards nickel defenses as a base. It puts a team out of its comfort level by needing to load up in the base to address the run. Atlanta's linebackers were blown off the ball - Weatherspoon and Nicholas could not get off blocks to save their lives. With 3-4 teams, even, you have an easier time running the ball up the middle.

As with almost everything in football, a great defensive line cures all ills. When your hogs up front are good enough to fully engage the offensive line like LSU, you can let Minter run and knock up Oregon before they get out of the backfield. When Fairley is shooting through that A gap, it makes Dixon take more time to make his decision.

It feels like we've seen a decline in the pass rushing three technique in this league (outside of Geno Atkins), and I'm sure part of that has to do with the move towards the 3-4 in this league.

 

[eznark]

I've been kind of rolling it over in my brain every now and then, but do you think there is an inherent advantage to a 3-4 or a 4-3 when playing a read option NFL team? Just assume replacement level personnel.

 

[Talon]

I've been kind of rolling it over in my brain every now and then, but do you think there is an inherent advantage to a 3-4 or a 4-3 when playing a read option NFL team? Just assume replacement level personnel.

I think you have a disadvantage as 3-4 team from the standpoint that interior rushing has always been a weakness of the 3-4 defense. By default, you'll have your guards getting to the second level more often than not, opening up an inside lane.

 

[eznark]

I think you have a disadvantage as 3-4 team from the standpoint that interior rushing has always been a weakness of the 3-4 defense. By default, you'll have your guards getting to the second level more often than not, opening up an inside lane.

On the other hand there is more flexibility in assignment as you have an extra guy standing who can more easily drop into a zone to try and slow that seam route or fill a gap on a blitz. If you are turning football into an 11-11 sport, I think there has to be advantages to having a more athletic OLB with QB assign than a defensive end, especially now when you have specialized DL for running and passing downs.

Obviously it comes down to how you use them, but I kind of feel like the roster of a 3-4 is going to offer more flexibility and adaptability. Or maybe I am just praying that is the case.

 

[Lonestar]

I think you have a disadvantage as 3-4 team from the standpoint that interior rushing has always been a weakness of the 3-4 defense. By default, you'll have your guards getting to the second level more often than not, opening up an inside lane.

3-4 always comes back to whether or not you get a form of "dominate" NT in the middle of that line. Whether it's just the massive NT or an explosive play-type NT. Anything to force the double team, negating a guard getting to the 2nd level.

If you can also have DE's that demand that kind of respect of a double team, then the offense is boned.

All of that is also why Dominate D-Lineman are picked early in the draft, and in college, 5 star D-Lineman have a better success rate in comparison to 5 star players at other positions.


in regards to more blocking terms, anything on "chip blocking" would be nice. More or less, it's the temporary act of blocking. RB's do it, before going out on a route (make a slight collision on a rushing defensive player, to allow a little more time for the QB to throw the ball). Guards going to the 2nd level on a rush can also perform this type of block, like a tiny double team, to help the Center or Tackle get a proper "seal", then move on to the next level (LB/DB)

 

[Talon]

On the other hand there is more flexibility in assignment as you have an extra guy standing who can more easily drop into a zone to try and slow that seam route or fill a gap on a blitz. If you are turning football into an 11-11 sport, I think there has to be advantages to having a more athletic OLB with QB assign than a defensive end, especially now when you have specialized DL for running and passing downs.

Obviously it comes down to how you use them, but I kind of feel like the roster of a 3-4 is going to offer more flexibility and adaptability. Or maybe I am just praying that is the case.

Maybe since linebackers, as a rule, are taught to read and react more than defensive linemen, who are basically told to bear on right ahead. But that's the whole point, right? Making athletes take a second to think - giving the offense an advantage.

We need to go back and look at how teams used to defend against the veer. By the way, I remember vividly Dr. Z (before his stroke when he wrote MMQB) talking about the potential of running the veer with Vick, Griffith (he was good for about two seasons) and Dunn in the backfield. Dr. Z is the GOAT.

In the back of my head, I really do wonder if there's going to be a severe overreaction to the effectiveness of the read option. Somebody in the league is going to figure out what works, and the league will adapt.

Now, the difficulty will be that your defense is going to have be more multiple than ever - you'll play a pocket passer one week, a running team one week, and then a read-option team the next week.

Unless you've got Ngata and Raji on your defensive line, it's difficult to imagine that you'll be effective against all types of defense.

3-4 always comes back to whether or not you get a form of "dominate" NT in the middle of that line. Whether it's just the massive NT or an explosive play-type NT. Anything to force the double team, negating a guard getting to the 2nd level.

If you can also have DE's that demand that kind of respect of a double team, then the offense is boned.

All of that is also why Dominate D-Lineman are picked early in the draft, and in college, 5 star D-Lineman have a better success rate in comparison to 5 star players at other positions.

Defensive linemen bomb out in the NFL all the damn time. I mean, hell, Pittsburgh just hasn't been the same since that defensive line has gotten old and brittle.

I forget who wrote this - might have been Gil Brandt actually - but the writer said that defensive line at the NFL level was the hardest position to master as a college player. He said that the front office tended to give defensive linemen about three seasons before giving up on them due to the huge difference in size and speed faced on every snap.

 

[cashman]

Can somebody break down why Monte Kiffin will be an enormous failure in Dallas?

edit: and also where does a jack line up in the 3-4

 

[Lonestar]

Maybe since linebackers, as a rule, are taught to read and react more than defensive linemen, who are basically told to bear on right ahead. But that's the whole point, right? Making athletes take a second to think - giving the offense an advantage.

We need to go back and look at how teams used to defend against the veer. By the way, I remember vividly Dr. Z (before his stroke when he wrote MMQB) talking about the potential of running the veer with Vick, Griffith (he was good for about two seasons) and Dunn in the backfield. Dr. Z is the GOAT.

In the back of my head, I really do wonder if there's going to be a severe overreaction to the effectiveness of the read option. Somebody in the league is going to figure out what works, and the league will adapt.

Now, the difficulty will be that your defense is going to have be more multiple than ever - you'll play a pocket passer one week, a running team one week, and then a read-option team the next week.

Unless you've got Ngata and Raji on your defensive line, it's difficult to imagine that you'll be effective against all types of defense.

Defensive linemen bomb out in the NFL all the damn time. I mean, hell, Pittsburgh just hasn't been the same since that defensive line has gotten old and brittle.

I forget who wrote this - might have been Gil Brandt actually - but the writer said that defensive line at the NFL level was the hardest position to master as a college player. He said that the front office tended to give defensive linemen about three seasons before giving up on them due to the huge difference in size and speed faced on every snap.

Well, some of my opinion is from watching Alabama in the 3-4 the last 6 years. Besides Daerus, Alabama's never had "playmakers" DLineman. Just large, strong dudes who are taught well and eat blocks. Maybe they've just had good coaches that teach them proper techniques.

It always seems to me that it's easier to find giant strong dudes for the 3-4 DE, than find those pass rushing, fast, giant strong dudes for the 4-3.


About Jack LB's, I'm sure there's a proper place for them (either only on the Strong side, or Weak Side) but I always thought it was situational. But more or less, is the "Pass Rushing DE" of a 4-3, with the occasional pass coverage thrown in.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Can somebody break down why Monte Kiffin will be an enormous failure in Dallas?

Some quick hitters off the top of my head:

1) Their best defensive player, Ware, is out of place in Kiffin's scheme. He's primarily a pass rusher but he's too small to play DE.

2) Kiffin's defenses were boatraced by spread/read option teams in the Pac-12, and he'll be in a division with two teams running it heavily. Now, part of that is poor technique, but it's not a good sign at all.

 

[eznark]

Well, some of my opinion is from watching Alabama in the 3-4 the last 6 years. Besides Daerus, Alabama's never had "playmakers" DLineman. Just large, strong dudes who are taught well and eat blocks. Maybe they've just had good coaches that teach them proper techniques.

It always seems to me that it's easier to find giant strong dudes for the 3-4 DE, than find those pass rushing, fast, giant strong dudes for the 4-3.

I don't think it's terribly valuable to talk scheme benefits in relation to college teams because the talent gulf is so enormously wide. Great athletes can make up for a ton. That doesn't generally exist in the NFL. Sure there are marginal differences but look at the talent differences in Alabama and ND. Come on. You can't learn shit about which system works better. It's men against boys.

 

[Talon]

Can somebody break down why Monte Kiffin will be an enormous failure in Dallas?

edit: and also where does a jack line up in the 3-4

Dallas spent a first round pick on Morris Claiborne and a boatload of money on Carr - two guys that are more comfortable playing on an island and not particularly known for their tackling.

Then they hired one of the key architects of the Tampa 2 defense, an ethos that relies on cover corners that are better at read and reacting to the quarterback and making tackles up the field.

Plus, Kiffin's defense relies on sound safety play.

Terrible fit of personnel and scheme.

Edit: Also, realize I said "Dixon" when I meant to say "Darron." I'm not racist!

 

[Sviatoslav]

Can somebody break down why Monte Kiffin will be an enormous failure in Dallas?

Jerry hired him

/end

 

[LJ11]

It's not like good safeties have ever been a commodity in this league. It's rare to get a guy like Reed or Dawkins that last a good decade playing at an elite level.

To me, the read option perfectly exploits this movement towards nickel defenses as a base. It puts a team out of its comfort level by needing to load up in the base to address the run. Atlanta's linebackers were blown off the ball - Weatherspoon and Nicholas could not get off blocks to save their lives. With 3-4 teams, even, you have an easier time running the ball up the middle.

As with almost everything in football, a great defensive line cures all ills. When your hogs up front are good enough to fully engage the offensive line like LSU, you can let Minter run and knock up Oregon before they get out of the backfield. When Fairley is shooting through that A gap, it makes Dixon take more time to make his decision.

It feels like we've seen a decline in the pass rushing three technique in this league (outside of Geno Atkins), and I'm sure part of that has to do with the move towards the 3-4 in this league.

Watt is essentially a 3 tech, like you said, everyone is basically in some sort of nickel package, most teams are out of their base D in a hurry, so I'd put Watt in a similar category as Atkins because he's lining up inside so much.

Also, the line between 3-4 and 4-3 is basically gone. You have odd front teams, Dallas and the Texans for example, playing under defenses which is the bread and butter of most 4-3 teams, they also one gap instead of two. Then you have even front/4-3 teams, mainly the Seahawks, playing odd fronts and even two gapping their 5 tech.

I do remember a few months ago someone talking about playing odd front/3-4 to shore up/help stop the run, but he never really got into the details of it. Forget who it was....

Well, some of my opinion is from watching Alabama in the 3-4 the last 6 years. Besides Daerus, Alabama's never had "playmakers" DLineman. Just large, strong dudes who are taught well and eat blocks. Maybe they've just had good coaches that teach them proper techniques.

It always seems to me that it's easier to find giant strong dudes for the 3-4 DE, than find those pass rushing, fast, giant strong dudes for the 4-3.


About Jack LB's, I'm sure there's a proper place for them (either only on the Strong side, or Weak Side) but I always thought it was situational. But more or less, is the "Pass Rushing DE" of a 4-3, with the occasional pass coverage thrown in.

I kind of agree with this. Think what the Seahawks do is the best combo out there.