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[GnomeChimpsky]

You think The Woman King is more historically inaccurate than Braveheart?

No. Absolutely not. The Woman King may take liberties with the truth, but almost all films based on history do this. Braveheart is so inaccurate it might as well be a fantasy film.

Woman King does a 180° on all the important historical elements presented in the film. It's a feelgood fantasy movie for millennials. And because of this disturbing and higly immoral revisionism I nominate it to most historically inaccurate major picture ever made.
But unless we can find a jury to settle this I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...

 

[Toots]

But can a woman be king? Why the title? Isn't a queen just as high as a king?
Lets call Charles the man queen.

It fits him well.
All hail King Camilla !
( i can only imagine how pissed off margaret must have been, dying knowing a woman she truly despised would become queen )

 

[DeafTourette]

What actually happened (historically) in the movie:

1. They were made to pay tribute to the Oyo empire through money, goods, weapons and Agojie warriors as slaves (servant and sex slaves)

2. They defeated the Oyo

3. The Agojie (Dahomey Amazons) actually DID advocate for ceasing engagement in the Slave Trade, though this happened later, and replacing with the palm oil industry which WAS a source of revenue. The Agojie weren't the only ones WITHIN Dahomey to advocate for such.

4. King Ghezo actually DID stop Dahomey's part in the slave trade... But only for a few years and decades after the events in the movie

5. They really DID kill the Oyo ambassador/representative and bring his head back to the Oyo

There was something else but I can't remember what right now.

 

[RoboFu]

She made the documentary BEFORE this movie was made... BEFORE it was cast .. back in 2019.

I still find it so interesting that folks get mad at THIS movie when so many are made with white protagonists who were awful people and those movies are championed and loved... Tons of revisionist history in them yet THIS one is torn down ...

And this is her tweet on the US premier of the documentary (it originally aired in 2019 on BBC)

Those movies were wrong but two wrongs don’t make a right.

If someone’s only argument is “ through out history white people have been like this..” then they aren’t looking for a better tomorrow.. they are just looking for revenge.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

At least this movie has opened ignorant people’s eyes to the fact that the Atlantic slave trade wasn’t just white people kidnapping africans. Not from the movie itself, of course but from the discussion around it.

 

[Wimbledon]

It is widely known Africans took part in the slave trade too. However it always seems to be a sticking point of whataboutism or to play down the awfulness of the slave trade itself to excuse it.

At the end of the day there wouldn't be a slave trade if there wasn't a market for it in, especially in the US.

If it's so widely known why isn't being depicted on the big screen? Here we have a movie where a woman king has done heinous crimes and her group but we depict them like heroes why not just show how evil this group was? There are movies where Male actors depicted evil historical male figures from history and showed us the audience how malicious, and evil they were, you can't do that with evil historical female figures from history now?

Before anyone says historical inaccuracies exist like braveheart sure but the topic of this thread is woman king. In the case of women king, there is much larger precedence for women king in today's society "STRONG BLACK FEMALE" than it is braveheart because of where we're at socially.

Off-topic - My point is that blacks, natives, and white in the US participated in the trade. Why not show the parts of the trade on the big screen that generally speaking most people today don't know about, the same thing with regards to this movie?

No one excusing the slave trade im asking to depict it as it should be, instead of changing it so radically as to paint one side as evil and the other good like Hollywood usually does with race-related films "just to entertain".

 

[StreetsofBeige]

At least this movie has opened ignorant people’s eyes to the fact that the Atlantic slave trade wasn’t just white people kidnapping africans. Not from the movie itself, of course but from the discussion around it.

Unless an opposing army is stampeding a country forcefully torching cities and taking slaves back in caravans or ships, it's a two way street.

I briefly read up on the African nation and not surprisingly they were willfully slave trading for European goods.

It's really no different than dumbass parents you hear about selling their kids to perverts. Who's to blame more? The perv or the parents? Both. But I'd put more blame against the parents, since you'd think their first responsibility is protecting the family instead of selling them out for money to buy a TV.

 

[DeafTourette]

Unless an opposing army is stampeding a country forcefully torching cities and taking slaves back in caravans or ships, it's a two way street.

I briefly read up on the African nation and not surprisingly they were willfully slave trading for European goods.

It's really no different than dumbass parents you hear about selling their kids to perverts. Who's to blame more? The perv or the parents? Both. But I'd put more blame against the parents, since you'd think their first responsibility is protecting the family instead of selling them out for money to buy a TV.

The analogy doesn't work. Not entirely. Because the slaves Dahomey (and other kingdoms like Oyo) sold were largely from other tribes/kingdoms as conquests ... Prisoners of war.

The slightly more apt, but still flawed, analogy would be Dahomey gifting tribute to Oyo in the form of citizens, Agojie and male soldiers.

 

[DeafTourette]

If it's so widely known why isn't being depicted on the big screen? Here we have a movie where a woman king has done heinous crimes and her group but we depict them like heroes why not just show how evil this group was? There are movies where Male actors depicted evil historical male figures from history and showed us the audience how malicious, and evil they were, you can't do that with evil historical female figures from history now?

Before anyone says historical inaccuracies exist like braveheart sure but the topic of this thread is woman king. In the case of women king, there is much larger precedence for women king in today's society "STRONG BLACK FEMALE" than it is braveheart because of where we're at socially.

Off-topic - My point is that blacks, natives, and white in the US participated in the trade. Why not show the parts of the trade on the big screen that generally speaking most people today don't know about, the same thing with regards to this movie?

No one excusing the slave trade im asking to depict it as it should be, instead of changing it so radically as to paint one side as evil and the other good like Hollywood usually does with race-related films "just to entertain".

This is a first of it's kind big budget theatrical release. To the PEOPLE of Dahomey, they were heroes. Americans still had slaves as a self-perpetuating population and Cuba and Brazil were active in the slave trade until 1965.

To US (regular folk) the Dahomey were villains but Agojie still inspired, partially or mostly, the Dora Milaje for Black Panther. Their bravery and such were the stuff of legend... Not too unlike the militaries of island nations like Samoa or Hawaii (their ritual dance in the movie is a real one and not unlike the Haka).

When something is almost fantastical, you want to see how they would have been as heroes. I mean shoot... Every British King or Chinese Monarch from antiquity is seen as wise or somewhat benevolent in modern movies ... But they ALL did contemptible and horrific things. Is that not revisionist history? What about Christopher Columbus? It's only in the last 20 years that the BREADTH of his evil became widely known to Joe Blow and Mary Mack. But before then, he was hailed as a hero in our history books in elementary and HS. Some folks even STILL hold him up as a hero even AFTER finding out all that he did.

It's perspective. What the kingdom of Dahomey (the monarchy and the Agojie) did was reprehensible, yes. So were many of the other historical heroes (John Smith has entered the chat) lauded... Yet their evil was swept under the rug because... Hollywood?!

 

[Frank Horrigan]

It is widely known Africans took part in the slave trade too. However it always seems to be a sticking point of whataboutism or to play down the awfulness of the slave trade itself to excuse it.

At the end of the day there wouldn't be a slave trade if there wasn't a market for it in, especially in the US.

That's whataboutism.

Slavery is as old as time. The Romans, Persians, Egyptians, middle east, far east, south America (pre and post Spanish conquest)...the list goes on.

For Africa not to have slavery would be laughably ignorant to human history as a whole, not a skin colour, race or religion.

However, only one country and one empire set about to end slavery entirely and wrote it into law, that country was Britain. It took way too fucking long for the rest of the civilised world to catch on.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

The analogy doesn't work. Not entirely. Because the slaves Dahomey (and other kingdoms like Oyo) sold were largely from other tribes/kingdoms as conquests ... Prisoners of war.

 

[RoboFu]

That's whataboutism.

Slavery is as old as time. The Romans, Persians, Egyptians, middle east, far east, south America (pre and post Spanish conquest)...the list goes on.

For Africa not to have slavery would be laughably ignorant to human history as a whole, not a skin colour, race or religion.

However, only one country and one empire set about to end slavery entirely and wrote it into law, that country was Britain. It took way too fucking long for the rest of the civilised world to catch on.

Well Britain was one of the last countries that really completely took over a lot of Africa and all the big Asian ports and commerce cities. So … They had a heads up on that area of expertise.

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

The title of this thread...

 

[IDKFA]

Every British King or Chinese Monarch from antiquity is seen as wise or somewhat benevolent in modern movies ... But they ALL did contemptible and horrific things. Is that not revisionist history?

Yes. Yes it is revisionist. It's why I'd call on any film or TV show based on historical events to accurately portray historical figures, even if it means these individuals won't pass the modern social standards test.

 

[DeafTourette]

Yes. Yes it is revisionist. It's why I'd call on any film or TV show based on historical events to accurately portray historical figures, even if it means these individuals won't pass the modern social standards test.

I just hope going forward everyone who pushed back so hard on THIS film keeps that same energy for future projects that steep themselves in revisionist history. Because I rarely see it.

That said, reading further about Dahomey and the Agojie further, France really set them back socially after conquering them. Dahomey was one of the few places in Africa where women had MORE freedoms than they do today still in many African countries. They could be in the military, in government, be leaders in society... France did away with all that and Africa is JUST NOW (relatively recently) starting to rectify their indoctrination by colonizers.

The movie shows men and women as equals... Which is what the historical record shows as well.

The Real Warriors Behind 'The Woman King'

A new film stars Viola Davis as the leader of the Agojie, the all-woman army of the African kingdom of Dahomey

www.smithsonianmag.com

The British did a great service by stopping their own part in the Transatlantic Slave Trade but it wasn't wholly altruistic. A lot of things had to happen before the government got things going on abolishment.

7 Reasons Why Britain Abolished Slavery

On 28 August 1833, the Slavery Abolition Act was given royal assent in Britain. This legislation terminated an institution that, for generations, had...

www.historyhit.com

The story is so FASCINATING... So much nuance about the rise and fall of Dahomey, their people, their culture, their traditions, their religions and their history (which France tried to erase).

The more I read, the more I understand that they weren't mustache twirling villains but people steeped in tradition, hubris and progressiveness (women in leadership positions/men and women being equals).

 

[DeafTourette]

And another one goes on my ignore list...

 

[IDKFA]

I just hope going forward everyone who pushed back so hard on THIS film keeps that same energy for future projects that steep themselves in revisionist history. Because I rarely see it.

I'm a student of history, so I criticise the historical accuracy of almost all historical films. I do agree with you that this film has received a lot of heat when in reality it's not the most historically inaccurate film ever made. Braveheart still gets that award.

 

[DeafTourette]

I'm a student of history, so I criticise the historical accuracy of almost all historical films. I do agree with you that this film has received a lot of heat when in reality it's not the most historically inaccurate film ever made. Braveheart still gets that award.

Thank you!
Is it awful that I prefer BraveHeart over The
Patriot?

 

[IDKFA]

Thank you!
Is it awful that I prefer BraveHeart over The
Patriot?

No. Not at all. I tried to scrub the Patriot from my mind because that film is also up there as one of the most historically inaccurate films ever made.

Thinking about it, you could argue that the Patriot is actually worse for revisionism than Braveheart because it pretty much ignores slavery of the era. If I remember correctly, Spike Lee was so pissed off with the film he rightly called it American Hollywood propaganda and a complete white washing of history.

 

[sol_bad]

Man, this doesn't come out for another month in Australia, get your butt into gear Sony!!!

 

[DeafTourette]

No. Not at all. I tried to scrub the Patriot from my mind because that film is also up there as one of the most historically inaccurate films ever made.

Thinking about it, you could argue that the Patriot is actually worse for revisionism than Braveheart because it pretty much ignores slavery of the era. If I remember correctly, Spike Lee was so pissed off with the film he rightly called it American Hollywood propaganda and a complete white washing of history.

I noticed the omission as well. The Northern states (or colonies) had enslaved Africans during that time... You would have seen them a lot in that time frame. The political leaders back then would have been the main drivers of slavery and indentured servitude (though IS was pretty much abandoned before the time of the revolutionary war).

 

[DeafTourette]

Man, this doesn't come out for another month in Australia, get your butt into gear Sony!!!

If you see this with any women, please let them know there's a scene in the movie portraying the rape of one of the leads (it's not graphic but it can be triggering).

 

[sol_bad]

If you see this with any women, please let them know there's a scene in the movie portraying the rape of one of the leads (it's not graphic but it can be triggering).

My wife hates rape scenes but she can handle it, no need to forewarn her. She is tougher than me when it comes to cinema gratuitousness.
She pushed me for years to watch Antichrist and it took me years to finally watch it.
And she wants to watch Irreversible even though it contains a lengthy rape scene.

 

[MightySquirrel]

This might win the best comedy of the year award.

 

[MightySquirrel]

My wife hates rape scenes but she can handle it, no need to forewarn her. She is tougher than me when it comes to cinema gratuitousness.
She pushed me for years to watch Antichrist and it took me years to finally watch it.
And she wants to watch Irreversible even though it contains a lengthy rape scene.

Idk thats a bit sus she might be giving you not so subtle hints.

 

[skneogaf]

More inaccurate nonsense that will likely result in white men being made out to be the most evil thing to ever exist.

There should be an organisation that gives out accuracy ratings for these films and TV shows that withhold so many information.

 

[DeafTourette]

More inaccurate nonsense that will likely result in white men being made out to be the most evil thing to ever exist.

There should be an organisation that gives out accuracy ratings for these films and TV shows that withhold so many information.

That's some mighty big projection there... The main bad guy is another African man.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

Thank you!
Is it awful that I prefer BraveHeart over The
Patriot?

Both of them are great!