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[LaunchpadMcQ]

Actually....what's the point of a 'stealth' kill in the context of the light sleepers? All the sleepers seem to know is if something happened in their area. The fact that someone was evicted is evidence in and of itself that something happened.

Well, first, the mafia likely didn't even know there were light sleepers in play when they used the stealth killer ability.

Second, they couldn't have used it on the second turn. Whether it be range-based, or whether they can only use it a set number of times, on night 2 they evicted someone decently far from Tucah, Coppanuva. That absence of evidence from the light sleepers on night 2 is very telling.

Third, I think there's a limited number of roles within the light sleeper's range. Notice how since Tucah, the commuter, has died, there hasn't been any activity in that area.

 

[franconp]

Let's get the first thing out of the way

Unvote: LunaticLMD

Now I don't have a target yet, I will wait a bit to cast a vote.

I don't remember who said it but I will not target for investigation someone inside the light sleepers range so I don't interfere with their investigation and we know how they work best.

 

[SalvaPot]

Actually....what's the point of a 'stealth' kill in the context of the light sleepers? All the sleepers seem to know is if something happened in their area. The fact that someone was evicted is evidence in and of itself that something happened.

Yeah, that is what I was thinking, so its weird to me that tomakasatnav got no notice of activity about night 1 when someone was clearly evicted within his range. And karkador confirmation means this was not an error or oversight on his part, its a game mechanic. There HAS to be a reason why toma did not get an activity notification.

Activity is BY people in our area as Kalor had said previously, but also things done ON people within our areas.

So this means that, if the HHA evicted someone, that is an action done on them and its supposed to be notified. For sure. Why is toma saying he was not notified? There are a few theories I can think right now...

Theory 1: HHA has a stealth kill. That would mean Karkador would gave them a way to not be detected. But I find this hard to believe because that would mean the sleepwalker ability is pretty much useless to town, why let them know about activity if this can be bypased? Also sleepwalker is not an overpowered ability, they don´t know who or where was the inactivity, and sometimes the activity is obvious (Like an eviction). The only way I can see the stealth kill ability to not be overpowered is if its a limited ability, something they can use, say, once per game or just to their immediate neighbors.

Theory 2: Toma is lying to us to see how we react. I find this one also pretty hard to believe because he had no need to say something as weird as this situation unless his purpose is to confuse us or gain our trust by giving us information that "only he knows", but the thing is that is such a weird lie to make, since he could have easily said there was activity on day 1 because, duh, we can all see that...

Its hard to make assumptions without making the imagination run wild. I think I can trust toma for now, but I feel there is more to it that he is keeping from us.

 

[Mazre]

Well, first, the mafia likely didn't even know there were light sleepers in play when they used the stealth killer ability.

Second, they couldn't have used it on the second turn. Whether it be range-based, or whether they can only use it a set number of times, on night 2 they evicted someone decently far from Tucah, Coppanuva. That absence of evidence from the light sleepers on night 2 is very telling.

Third, I think there's a limited number of roles within the light sleeper's range. Notice how since Tucah, the commuter, has died, there hasn't been any activity in that area.

Forget about who knows what roles for a moment:

Light sleeper as understood is notified when an action active or passive occurs in their range. They are told something happened or nothing happened.

The eviction itself leaves a ruin behind and we're notified that a player is now gone. The activity is VERY obvious at this point.

What information would be hidden by a supposed stealth at this point? At most I suppose it could hide someone taking action but not someone being acted upon.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Forget about who knows what roles for a moment:

Light sleeper as understood is notified when an action active or passive occurs in their range. They are told something happened or nothing happened.

The eviction itself leaves a ruin behind and we're notified that a player is now gone. The activity is VERY obvious at this point.

What information would be hidden by a supposed stealth at this point? At most I suppose it could hide someone taking action but not someone being acted upon.

Ok, I see what you're saying. While there wasn't any activity produced on the Tucah eviction, we knew he was evicted, so what's the point? The intention of the role is more useful to cover up the point of origin of the stealth killer.

Which means... whoever the stealth killer is, he's within the range of a light sleeper, or else his role would be pointless.

 

[Mazre]

Ok, I see what you're saying. While there wasn't any activity produced on the Tucah eviction, we knew he was evicted, so what's the point? The intention of the role is more useful to cover up the point of origin of the stealth killer.

Which means... whoever the stealth killer is, he's within the range of a light sleeper, or else his role would be pointless.

Yeah, there does seem like there could be some use for a stealth kill, though it also appears to be a narrow application. Currently our only supporting evidence for a stealth kill comes from Toma. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Considering from another angle:

If we trust Toma, and we hold that regular kills are observable actions, then the stealth kill exists in some form.

If Toma is lying, there is no evidence of a stealth kill.

Something else to be learned from an evict of Toma.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Yeah, there does seem like there could be some use for a stealth kill, though it also appears to be a narrow application. Currently our only supporting evidence for a stealth kill comes from Toma. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Considering from another angle:

If we trust Toma, and we hold that regular kills are observable actions, then the stealth kill exists in some form.

If Toma is lying, there is no evidence of a stealth kill.

Something else to be learned from an evict of Toma.

It's true, but I knew Toma was the light sleeper before he came out. It makes sense when you consider the map design, where Tucah was placed and the fact that the other light sleeper has 4 players in his range. Plus, especially now that's he come out and Ourobolus, who is the only other possible light sleeper within Tucah's range, hasn't contested the claim, I'm very certain Toma is a light sleeper.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Another theory on silent kills: maybe mafia can kill others within a certain range without making noise; they make noise otherwise.

Anyway, I'm more focused on what the hell happened on Night 2.

I think 21GunShow/LunaticLMD may have been a detection role...

 

[Mazre]

Off to sleep, < 16 hours guys. Don't forget to vote and be heard.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Shit, LunaticLMD has a plurality.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

VOTE: SalvaPot

Need to tie up the vote. I think kicking Lunatic is a mistake.

 

[EzekelRAGE]

With Toma being a light sleepr or not, I thought we had confirmation by Kalor of it? Kalor left out a part of his role and Toma named it?

Also, remember, they don't get notified of multiple actions happening in one night.

nin1000
Ultron
Razmos
Darryl
SalvaPot
Hobohodo

Using LMQ's list.

nin1000 - Only suspicions from him are from the whole thing I discussed earlier when the vote was on him.

Ultron - Any thing on him doesn't really matter atm, since we would get rid of our supposed investigator as well.

Razmos - Seem townlike

Darryl - Doesn't seem to post often or like the theory about post count/activity playing a part of someone being possible HHA.

SalvaPot - Fits a couple of theories I think. Cross vote wise, voted for freak and hippie

Hobohodo - Doesnt seem to post a lot, idk.

LMQ - Seems townlike, posts a lot to get discussions and stuff started.

Going off the above

VOTE: SalvaPot

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

With Toma being a light sleepr or not, I thought we had confirmation by Kalor of it? Kalor left out a part of his role and Toma named it?

VOTE: SalvaPot

Yeah, I forgot about that. That's as much proof as you need.

As for whether Salva might be guilty or not... well, I suppose that for whatever it's worth, I strongly believe that Ultron is mafia. I'm almost certain of it. We can't touch him though. I'm not sure if he took out the hit on Night 2 or not. But, as for Salva, as talkative as he is, he's danced around the topic of the roommates and never placed a vote against them. His votes have been mostly against town-aligned players (toma, HippieHobo), though several players fit that description.

 

[SalvaPot]

Yeah, I forgot about that. That's as much proof as you need.

As for whether Salva might be guilty or not... well, I suppose that for whatever it's worth, I strongly believe that Ultron is mafia. I'm almost certain of it. We can't touch him though. I'm not sure if he took out the hit on Night 2 or not. But, as for Salva, as talkative as he is, he's danced around the topic of the roommates and never placed a vote against them. His votes have been mostly against town-aligned players (toma, HippieHobo), though several players fit that description.

I already defended myself and told you guys why I am an ordinary villager, there really is no point in voting for me yet again, since you are not going to get more information out of me because there is nothing else, and yes, I know that this is something a HHA trying to keep appearances will say, but try to look it this way. Try with another one of the villager claim and see how they react, and lets try to get more info for the town here, voting for me again is a waste of time -___-.

All I am saying is that we should try to give the other villagers the treatment I am getting and see if their arguments hold water, just focusing on me for today really brings nothing new, since the only way to prove myself is going to be with my eviction and then we would have wasted another day. If after the other villagers have explained themselves properly (like toma did), I am still the main suspect, I won´t mind at all been evicted, since getting me is really not a huge loss, at least I am not like a doctor or something.

 

[SalvaPot]

(At least we are not the Star Wars game, we do have a chance to win here)

 

[EzekelRAGE]

Problem is, no real time :-(. Around 12-13 hours before day is over went and approaching midnight probably for a lot of players. I may be sleep by the time vote closes.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I'm not voting on you to evict you just yet, I just need to stop you guys from evicting Lunatic. I'm going to have to cast a final vote tomorrow morning before I go to work, though.

Going back to the list of possible people who could have killed Coppanuva..

nin1000
Ultron
Razmos
Darryl
SalvaPot
Hobohodo

I would be comfortable getting rid of Ezekel (looks like he did it for me heh) and Razmos, just on a feeling I've got. I feel very strongly about Ultron, but I can't do anything about him; only hope he wasn't the one who did this particular eviction. Otherwise, it kind of blows this whole thing to pieces. So I'm left with nin1000, Salva, Hobo, and Darryl.

 

[SalvaPot]

Oh, I also want to say I don´t really feel lunatic is our guy. The reason I think he might not be playing his role is because is just an ordinary villager too. Or he might be to scared to make a scene because his role is sensitive. Either way I would rather be evicted myself than him.

Also, can we get haly, darryl or nin investigated? My main suspicions are no them, but more haly, he used to be extremely vocal and always making conjunctions and theories, but now he is leaving all the work to launchpad and just agreeing with what has been said, I feel uneasy by it, like he is holding back in fear or revealing something, but this might be just my paranoia talking.

Either way, I have exam tomorrow again, so I think I am going to miss the deadline (I have to study).

(Stop voting for me haly =P)

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I'm leaning towards Hobohodo... I have in my notes he's inexperienced (didn't participate in last game), but he's not all over the place like the rest of us new kids. He chimes in occasionally, but his votes have been definite. He's voted on HippieHobo and nin1000 so far, one of which is a confirmed townie.

I've got the same thing in my notes about Darryl. Inexperienced, but the difference is he's voted on the roomies (and I know I'm jumping a few steps here, but I'm fixated on Ultron).

nin1000 is a klutz, but I have no idea what that means.

 

[Haly]

I really don't want to vote for you Salvapot, but I have no better option at the moment.

And I experienced a bit of exhaustion after the first two days. My level of focus during the first day just wasn't sustainable, and I quickly realized I was in way over my head. The Hippie eviction really took the wind out of my sails.

 

[Karkador]

No response from LunaticLMD, replacement incoming.

It also seems to me that a lot of people don't like the days starting/ending at around 1pm est.

All players, please state your time zone and I'll try to set a new schedule that accommodates everyone.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I really don't want to vote for you Salvapot, but I have no better option at the moment.

And I experienced a bit of exhaustion after the first two days. My level of focus during the first day just wasn't sustainable, and I quickly realized I was in way over my head. The Hippie eviction really took the wind out of my sails.

Dude, Haly, noooo. Come on. We all make mistakes.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

MST / GMT -6:00

 

[Ourobolus]

I'm leaning towards Hobohodo... I have in my notes he's inexperienced (didn't participate in last game), but he's not all over the place like the rest of us new kids. He chimes in occasionally, but his votes have been definite. He's voted on HippieHobo and nin1000 so far, one of which is a confirmed townie.

I've got the same thing in my notes about Darryl. Inexperienced, but the difference is he's voted on the roomies (and I know I'm jumping a few steps here, but I'm fixated on Ultron).

nin1000 is a klutz, but I have no idea what that means.

My notes are similar, but I have Darryl above Hobo. Mainly because I can't imagine that Kark would put a player in between two gossips so blatantly. That seems almost too obvious. But yes, they are both suspicious.

Of course, I've been wrong before, but still.

Darryl, on the other hand, has been only slightly more involved than Hobo, and he's out of range of one of the gossips. He also seems to be just active enough to be noticeable. I know that's subjective but again:

Disclaimer: I have been drinking.

 

[ultron87]

Yeah, I forgot about that. That's as much proof as you need.

As for whether Salva might be guilty or not... well, I suppose that for whatever it's worth, I strongly believe that Ultron is mafia. I'm almost certain of it. We can't touch him though. I'm not sure if he took out the hit on Night 2 or not. But, as for Salva, as talkative as he is, he's danced around the topic of the roommates and never placed a vote against them. His votes have been mostly against town-aligned players (toma, HippieHobo), though several players fit that description.

You really seem to like talking in absolutes in this game. Why are you so sure about me? Please tell us.

Franconp being an investigator actually makes me being a Mafia member way less likely. It'd be crazy to set up a game where one of the two big traditional town power roles gets a shield as powerful as "if you die, an HHA dies". That role could basically operate with impunity for quite awhile then. We'd probably totally be dead already if someone hasn't saved us last night (which would explain both Light Sleeper no results last night if the Doctor isn't in their range either).

 

[Haly]

Dude, Haly, noooo. Come on. We all make mistakes.

What I mean is, the strategy I used with pressing people and creating hunches fell apart with Hippie. I saw the weaknesses in my own reasoning, and I haven't figured out a new way to approach it yet.

 

[Ourobolus]

MST / GMT -6:00

Also, c'mon Haly. It's ok. I fucked up the Freakzilla eviction.

I don't punish myself for that.

*slashes wrists with a dull blade*

 

[Darryl]

Vote: Ouruborus

Talks a lot and says nothing that I care about. Would not miss.

 

[Haly]

It'd be crazy to set up a game where one of the two big traditional town power roles gets a shield as powerful as "if you die, an HHA dies".

We all agreed, very early on, that you must have some built in protection because otherwise why wouldn't the HHA evict you on the very first night and get a numerical lead immediately?

That role could basically operate with impunity for quite awhile then. We'd probably totally be dead already if someone hasn't saved us last night (which would explain both Light Sleeper no results last night if the Doctor isn't in their range either).

I don't think there's a Doctor in this game, though I may be yet surprised in the end.

 

[EzekelRAGE]

No response from LunaticLMD, replacement incoming.

It also seems to me that a lot of people don't like the days starting/ending at around 1pm est.

All players, please state your time zone and I'll try to set a new schedule that accommodates everyone.

Central Time US, -6. So that 11pm for me atm.

 

[Darryl]

I'm leaning towards Hobohodo... I have in my notes he's inexperienced (didn't participate in last game), but he's not all over the place like the rest of us new kids. He chimes in occasionally, but his votes have been definite. He's voted on HippieHobo and nin1000 so far, one of which is a confirmed townie.

I've got the same thing in my notes about Darryl. Inexperienced, but the difference is he's voted on the roomies (and I know I'm jumping a few steps here, but I'm fixated on Ultron).

nin1000 is a klutz, but I have no idea what that means.

I don't even think the roomies are HHA anymore. They're probably some cult bunkie neutral sect. It puts some explanation behind the premature role claim from Franconp. It explains why there hasn't been any gossips in the area. Those dudes probably have their own private gossip chat.

 

[nin1000]

nin1000 is a klutz, but I have no idea what that means.

It means I'm town mate. &#128536;

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

It'd be crazy to set up a game where one of the two big traditional town power roles gets a shield as powerful as "if you die, an HHA dies". That role could basically operate with impunity for quite awhile then. We'd probably totally be dead already if someone hasn't saved us last night (which would explain both Light Sleeper no results last night if the Doctor isn't in their range either).

That's exactly why it makes sense. An investigator is a powerful role. To keep things interesting, put it behind a wall that protects it and keeps it in play for a prolonged period of time. Then, have the town players battle over whether it's a psychological trap or not.

Also, one of the light sleepers did report activity for last night.

You weren't protected last night because you didn't target yourself. lol

What I mean is, the strategy I used with pressing people and creating hunches fell apart with Hippie. I saw the weaknesses in my own reasoning, and I haven't figured out a new way to approach it yet.

Man, that's basically what I've been doing, but I've been backing down when I'm wrong. Sometimes I type long posts tearing people down and just back off mid-type because I realize how my arguments can fall apart. It happens. I carry some responsibility for freakzilla.

My notes are similar, but I have Darryl above Hobo. Mainly because I can't imagine that Kark would put a player in between two gossips so blatantly. That seems almost too obvious. But yes, they are both suspicious.

Of course, I've been wrong before, but still.

Darryl, on the other hand, has been only slightly more involved than Hobo, and he's out of range of one of the gossips. He also seems to be just active enough to be noticeable. I know that's subjective but again:

Disclaimer: I have been drinking.

Yeah, I wouldn't take that gossip trap for granted. There's too many gossips to know what the intent of each specific one was.

 

[ultron87]

Oh, right. Misread Kalors report earlier. Apologies on that.

 

[ultron87]

That's exactly why it makes sense. An investigator is a powerful role. To keep things interesting, put it behind a wall that protects it and keeps it in play for a prolonged period of time. Then, have the town players battle over whether it's a psychological trap or not.

Also, one of the light sleepers did report activity for last night.

You weren't protected last night because you didn't target yourself.

If I was HHA I would be arguing to kill us as soon as Franconp revealed his role. Losing one person and revealing nothing else would be less bad than letting an investigator go free. It's a boring decision but the right one. It isn't interesting at all, it's just a rote cost/benefit analysis that results in a player taking themselves out of the game. Bleh. That awkwardness is avoided by a double town setup where one is a super good role and the other is marginal. Could be town/mafia investigator set up also since that's more interesting (the other possible reason we aren't dead).

But hey, I hate all this meta gaming crap.

 

[nin1000]

Vote: Ouruborus

Talks a lot and says nothing that I care about. Would not miss.

Would you comment a bit more on that vote since that could be said about a lot of players

Spoiler

including you filthy HHA player&#128520;

 

[franconp]

Oh, I also want to say I don´t really feel lunatic is our guy. The reason I think he might not be playing his role is because is just an ordinary villager too. Or he might be to scared to make a scene because his role is sensitive. Either way I would rather be evicted myself than him.

Also, can we get haly, darryl or nin investigated? My main suspicions are no them, but more haly, he used to be extremely vocal and always making conjunctions and theories, but now he is leaving all the work to launchpad and just agreeing with what has been said, I feel uneasy by it, like he is holding back in fear or revealing something, but this might be just my paranoia talking.

Either way, I have exam tomorrow again, so I think I am going to miss the deadline (I have to study).

(Stop voting for me haly =P)

Haly is waaaay up in my investigation list but I won't investigate him this night. As I said before, I don't want to mess with the night sleepers reports this time (the activity that Kalor detected in his zone last night was me investigating Mazre) and see what their results are.

 

[Razmos]

VOTE: Hobohodo
I find his position of being between 2 gossips highly suspicious, but apart from that there is nothing about him that suggests which side he is on.

I think getting rid of the people we know nothing about is a good idea, because we need to start seeing some facts

 

[kingkitty]

I don't agree with the stealth kill theory. Kalor said he only got notifications from the actions of villagers within his range, as well as passive abilities.

Since someone asked, I only get notified if someone performs an action, not if they are targetted. I also get notified by passive abilities.

Tucah's death could have been caused by mafia out of Toma's range.

I do think Hobodobo should get investigated.

 

[kingkitty]

Haly is waaaay up in my investigation list but I won't investigate him this night. As I said before, I don't want to mess with the night sleepers reports this time (the activity that Kalor detected in his zone last night was me investigating Mazre) and see what their results are.

Since someone asked, I only get notified if someone performs an action, not if they are targeted. I also get notified by passive abilities.

I might have missed a clarification post, but at least from what he said earlier, if people are targeted by someone outside his range, it won't come up in his activity log.

By that logic, your investigation shouldn't come up in his logs at all. But of course, I might have missed a crucial post or something.

 

[tomakasatnav]

There was a clarification of the role, activity can be if one of our neighbors is targeted.

 

[tomakasatnav]

People in our area, rather.

 

[kingkitty]

ahh I see. Well that changes everything, lol.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

Stealth kill - having thought about this, yeah this isn't going to be a thing. What would it mask from us? That someone got evicted? We can see when people get evicted. I imagine it doesn't show up as activity as it would just cover up if anything else did happen - say someone had targeted someone within Tom's area with another action, but the kill covered it. It's just obfuscate useful information.

Looks like people are going for Salva. I don't believe him to be HHA, but it's more of a gut feeling than anything else. Out of potential people to evict, he probably is the best to minimise the effect on the gossips, but I dunno. I think he's clean. I'm more inclined to go for Darryl, I haven't got much of a read on him and from my brief look over last night before bed he seems to follow the crowd without making too much of a splash.

So because of that:

VOTE: Darryl

 

[Mazre]

Tentative as of post #1394 (RNH vote for Darryl) : no strike formatting don't have time


Foshy 1
nin1000

Salvapot 3
Haly
LMQ
ER

Tomakasatnav 1
Mazre

Ourobolus 1
Darryl

Hobohodo 1
Razmos

Darryl 1
RNH

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

Oh, that's more spread out than I thought

Ok, so we're agreed that we're not going insane at the end of this day phase like the other game right?

Also, Kark, I'm GMT (well, BST at the moment, so GMT+1. I.e. it's 12:10 PM at the moment)

 

[Mazre]

Gotta post fast, need to get to work.

EDT time.

Read, comment, vote please!, We're 8/17 (LMD being replaced, Foshy seems AWOL) atm.

 

[Mazre]

Yeah, I forgot about that. That's as much proof as you need.

Except if they're HHA colluding.

Lot's of good discussion in the past 12-24 hrs make sure you guys are caught up on it.

Off to work.

 

[tomakasatnav]

Also, Kark, I'm GMT (well, BST at the moment, so GMT+1. I.e. it's 12:10 PM at the moment)

Oh yeah, same.

 

[tomakasatnav]

Vote: Hobohodo

This is a tentative vote.. I think the position between two gossips might be too obvious for it to be HHA (only really standing a chance of working if they had both invited him like Day 1?), but the questions won't go away and presumably neither of the gossips are inviting him in at this stage.