Support NeoGAF

[rezn0r]

Does she got to register as a sex offender?

of course she does (and i also don't agree with 15 years)

 

[royalan]

Differently.

Because unlike a lot of people here keen on performing political correctness at all costs, I don't see a problem with acknowledging males and females ARE different when it comes to a lot of things. I actually see a problem in pretending these differences don't exist.

I feel differently because male and female victims won't be affected to nearly the same degree or even in the same way at all ( We're talking post puberty ).
Because it's hard to imagine a 15 y/o guy will ever feel regret, shame or suffer a trauma from having had consensual sex with an oder girl.
Because I just dont buy the teacher needing to take advantage of her position, lie about her intentions, deceiving and taking advantage of the guy's young age and limited judgment capacity for him to agree to have sex.

Now, with reversed roles though, of course. In all likelyhood, a 30 y/o man would need to resort to all kinds of dirty tricks for a 15 y/o girl's defences to fall.

There's biological reasons and instincts tied to the survival of the species for women and men having different criteria for selecting sex partners. Actually, even doing any kind of selection at all.

Of course what she did is still deontologically wrong but the hypocrisy here is through the roof.
To call this rape is a travesty.

Then you simply don't know boys and you don't know girls.

Boys are every bit as capable of feeling regret, shame, coercion and general lack of interest in women (yes, even attractive women) coming on to them. And I don't think I need to link all the studies that have been done that indicate that boys actually are capable of feeling these things, and how lack of encouragement to embrace these sorts of feelings (because "be a man!") leads to young boys growing into emotionally stunted men. You shouldn't at all be thinking that a boy being coerced by an adult teacher is somehow less horrible because he's a boy and "well...you know boys. lol"

Girls are also just as capable as boys of being attracted to (and subsequently coerced by) significantly older men. God, spending any length of time around girls would tell you that.

 

[Sakura]

15 years is too much. She should lose her ability to ever teach again, and maybe 1 year prison at most. I mean, her life is pretty much already ruined at that point, what exactly is putting her in jail for 15 whole years going to do?
In Canada the age of consent until the Conservatives came into power was 14. As in, a 14 year old could consent to have sex with a 30 year old. Now the age is 16. Now while I understand this is America and the laws are the laws, still, it is hard for me to see how this sentence is justifiable.
And yes, if this was a 30 year old man and a 15 year old female student my position would be the same.

 

[kevm3]

Since when can 15 year olds 'consent' to sex with a grown up? So you guys would have no problems with, say 30 year old men hovering around high schools picking up 15 year olds and boozing them up and sleeping with them as long as the girls 'consented' to it? The bottom line is if someone is underage, stay away.

 

[Lashley]

I can never understand when people do shit like this? Why risk your job and your marriage to sleep with a kid?

Feel for that kid's family and her husband. Must be horrible for them. Victim's friends need to grow the fuck up.

 

[Lothar]

Since when can 15 year olds 'consent' to sex with a grown up?

In many many many countries. Also a 16 year old can legally consent in Michigan. Do you think 15 and 16 makes a huge difference? Enough to warrant 15 years in jail?

So you guys would have no problems with, say 30 year old men hovering around high schools picking up 15 year olds and boozing them up and sleeping with them as long as the girls 'consented' to it? The bottom line is if someone is underage, stay away.

I didn't have a problem when 51 year old Doug Hutchison married 16 year old Courtney Stodden.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

The twist is just as sick. Being attractive doesn't make it less Rape.

hang on now its clearly not rape

 

[E92 M3]

You guys are missing the point if you think prison time is for reform. It's all about the profits. Unfortunately this woman was sentenced to 15 years.

 

[timetokill]

Then you simply don't know boys and you don't know girls.

Boys are every bit as capable of feeling regret, shame, coercion and general lack of interest in women (yes, even attractive women) coming on to them. And I don't think I need to link all the studies that have been done that indicate that boys actually are capable of feeling these things, and how lack of encouragement to embrace these sorts of feelings (because "be a man!") leads to young boys growing into emotionally stunted men. You shouldn't at all be thinking that a boy being coerced by an adult teacher is somehow less horrible because he's a boy and "well...you know boys. lol"

Girls are also just as capable as boys of being attracted to (and subsequently coerced by) significantly older men. God, spending any length of time around girls would tell you that.

The fact that people don't understand this is baffling and more than a little disturbing.

No, age of consent in Michigan is 16, and the law she's being charged under was posted on page 3. 16 is the cutoff for this law, and it only applies up to 16 if you're in a position of power, otherwise it's 13:

Okay. I didn't realize Michigan was so out of line with the national age limit.
The parole system is basically its own sliding scale. She got the minimum sentence and she'll be out a lot sooner as long as she doesn't fuck things up.

So if you want to argue 5 years is too much for an authority figure raping an adolescent minor, okay, be my guest?

 

[D.Lo]

Okay. I didn't realize Michigan was so out of line with the national age limit.

Wrong again, it's 16 in the vast majority of the US, 31 states. It's only 18 in 12 states, the rest it's 17.

And in those states where it's over 16, most have rules that drop it to 15/16 or reduce severity of the offence greatly if the older partner under a certain age, usually 30-35.

So if you want to argue 5 years is too much for an authority figure raping an adolescent minor, okay, be my guest?

Statutory rape is not rape, that's why it has a different term. It is dealt with as a separate criminal offence to rape.

The issue with it here is by removing absolutely any concept of consent, it is considered same offence whether the boy initiated it or if he was held at gunpoint. Which makes sense for a 5 year old, but is truly ridiculous for a 15 year old.

And if the boy was literally just a few months older, it moves from minimum 15 years jail to maximum two years and/or $500 fine.

Or for a non-teacher it moves from minimum 15 years jail to not an offence at all.

Which is a ridiculous jump.

 

[Blastoise]

She looks like Maureen Ponderosa.

 

[SniperHunter]

i remember when this almost happened to me in grade 10. this science teacher totally wanted me, saw her masturbating in her jeep outside my house, i was really creeped out even though she was smoking hot and young

 

[Emperor Bohe]

15 years???

 

[Dreams-Visions]

wow, the kids's friends and family are pieces of shit.

sentence is obviously disproportionate to the crime here, though. but that's true for a great many laws. I feel the worst for her husband.

 

[wildfire]

wow, the kids's friends and family are pieces of shit.

The article was referring to the rapist's friends and family not the minor.

hang on now its clearly not rape

Look I'm going to assume you come from someplace where the age of consent is lower but in this country it is rape. If you want to argue against our cut off point whatever. If you want to argue that this in know way couldn't be statuary rape even if you agree with the cut off point, do so at your own peril.

i remember when this almost happened to me in grade 10. this science teacher totally wanted me, saw her masturbating in her jeep outside my house, i was really creeped out even though she was smoking hot and young

WTF?

 

[GorillaJu]

Then you simply don't know boys and you don't know girls.

Boys are every bit as capable of feeling regret, shame, coercion and general lack of interest in women (yes, even attractive women) coming on to them. And I don't think I need to link all the studies that have been done that indicate that boys actually are capable of feeling these things, and how lack of encouragement to embrace these sorts of feelings (because "be a man!") leads to young boys growing into emotionally stunted men. You shouldn't at all be thinking that a boy being coerced by an adult teacher is somehow less horrible because he's a boy and "well...you know boys. lol"

Girls are also just as capable as boys of being attracted to (and subsequently coerced by) significantly older men. God, spending any length of time around girls would tell you that.

Absolutely this.

I agree with this guy in the sense that the dynamic is different between older woman/young boy vs older man/young girl, but there's no lack of examples of teenage girls falling in love with their older male teachers and being the ones to make moves. I know that here in Japan, HS girl/male teacher couples that run away and get married after school ends is not uncommon at all. A friend of mine started flooding Insta with "OMG I'm in love <3 mah wifey <3" style couples photos with an 18 year old girl, mysteriously appearing out of nowhere the next day after her graduation. As a HS teacher myself I've been on the receiving end of some rather aggressive advances, but I'm not falling for that shit.

 

[Crash Station]

Differently.

Because unlike a lot of people here keen on performing political correctness at all costs, I don't see a problem with acknowledging males and females ARE different when it comes to a lot of things. I actually see a problem in pretending these differences don't exist.

I feel differently because male and female victims won't be affected to nearly the same degree or even in the same way at all ( We're talking post puberty ).
Because it's hard to imagine a 15 y/o guy will ever feel regret, shame or suffer a trauma from having had consensual sex with an oder girl.
Because I just dont buy the teacher needing to take advantage of her position, lie about her intentions, deceiving and taking advantage of the guy's young age and limited judgment capacity for him to agree to have sex.

Now, with reversed roles though, of course. In all likelyhood, a 30 y/o man would need to resort to all kinds of dirty tricks for a 15 y/o girl's defences to fall.

There's biological reasons and instincts tied to the survival of the species for women and men having different criteria for selecting sex partners. Actually, even doing any kind of selection at all.

Of course what she did is still deontologically wrong but the hypocrisy here is through the roof.
To call this rape is a travesty.

As the cousin of a 14 year old at the time (male) that had sex with an attractive teacher in her late 20s, I can tell you all of this is bullshit. No, not every underage boy that has "consensual" sex with an older woman will turn into an emotionally stunted mess, nor would every girl with an older man. That doesn't change the fact everyone reacts to things differently, and at a vulnerable age, they're more likely to hold long-lasting mental consequences regardless of gender. That's all backed by biology as you would put it.

On topic, I do feel 15 years is a bit much, and I would say the same if the genders were reversed.

 

[timetokill]

Wrong again, it's 16 in the vast majority of the US, 31 states. It's only 18 in 12 states, the rest it's 17.

Actually, I was just wrong to take your word for it -- you said the "age of consent" was 13 outside of positions of authority, but only goes up to 16 when it's a teacher. It's actually 18, but I'll get to that in a moment.

Statutory rape is not rape, that's why it has a different term. It is dealt with as a separate criminal offence to rape.

Oh, boy. Really? Why do they put the word "rape" in there, then? If it's not rape, why call it any kind of rape at all?

I'll help you out here: Because it IS rape. It's a particular kind of rape. Just like there are different types of murder, they're still murder.

The issue with it here is by removing absolutely any concept of consent, it is considered same offence whether the boy initiated it or if he was held at gunpoint. Which makes sense for a 5 year old, but is truly ridiculous for a 15 year old.

The concept of consent is removed because the boy CANNOT consent as defined by law. Also here you're wrong again, as other charges would be levied if the boy was indeed held at gunpoint. The punishment wouldn't be the same.

And if the boy was literally just a few months older, it moves from minimum 15 years jail to maximum two years and/or $500 fine.

Or for a non-teacher it moves from minimum 15 years jail to not an offence at all.

Which is a ridiculous jump.

This part's my favorite, because it's obvious you didn't even read the thing you linked me to.

Here's the first paragraph, bolded for your assitance:

In Michigan, the age of consent is 16, and people who engage in sexual activity with children who are underage may be convicted of statutory rape (also called criminal sexual conduct). Michigan&#8217;s laws also prohibit teachers from engaging in sex with students aged 16 or 17 years old.

In other words, he had to be 18 before she could have sex with him. Three years. Back to my original comment.

The boy was well over two year from being outside this "window", so again, a pretty large "cusp."

As it is, this falls very cleanly within the defined laws of statutory rape. It's not even close. He wasn't weeks away, he was YEARS.

 

[kevm3]

15 years is excessive, but I doubt she will have to do all those years.

They chose to make an example of her because there's been a rash of these stories lately. You simply CANNOT sleep with the kids in your school, especially if they are underage. That's the bottom line.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

15 years is excessive, but I doubt she will have to do all those years.

I may have misread, but I thought what she got was the minimum mando

 

[Chichikov]

Oh, boy. Really? Why do they put the word "rape" in there, then? If it's not rape, why call it any kind of rape at all?

I'll help you out here: Because it IS rape. It's a particular kind of rape. Just like there are different types of murder, they're still murder.

No, they aren't.
Morally, rape is always indefensible, this is not the case with statutory rape isn't.
For example, a 17 years old having consensual sex with 16 years old, which is statutory rape in some jurisdictions is not necessarily a bad thing, and it's certainly isn't rape.

Just to be clear though, a 30 years old teacher should absolutely not fuck her 15 years old student.
I'm talking in general here.

 

[D.Lo]

Actually, I was just wrong to take your word for it -- you said the "age of consent" was 13 outside of positions of authority, but only goes up to 16 when it's a teacher. It's actually 18, but I'll get to that in a moment.

I never said anything of the sort.

I said that law, the one with a minimum 15 year sentence, only applies for 16 year olds if the perp is in a position of power. If they are not in a position of power, that law (15 year sentence) only applies if the victim is 13 or under.

Oh, boy. Really? Why do they put the word "rape" in there, then? If it's not rape, why call it any kind of rape at all?

I'll help you out here: Because it IS rape. It's a particular kind of rape. Just like there are different types of murder, they're still murder.

So a word in front of a word means the latter is still taken at face value? What about 'not murder'?

It's considered rape by the state, but is not the dictionary definition of rape, which is sex again your will.

The concept of consent is removed because the boy CANNOT consent as defined by law. Also here you're wrong again, as other charges would be levied if the boy was indeed held at gunpoint. The punishment wouldn't be the same.

Legally, yes, and I made that exact point in my last post.

This part's my favorite, because it's obvious you didn't even read the thing you linked me to.

Here's the first paragraph, bolded for your assitance:

In other words, he had to be 18 before she could have sex with him. Three years. Back to my original comment.

The boy was well over two year from being outside this "window", so again, a pretty large "cusp."

As it is, this falls very cleanly within the defined laws of statutory rape. It's not even close. He wasn't weeks away, he was YEARS.

Please check your facts before getting condescending.

I said, if the kid is 16 instead of 15, not that is isn't still a crime, but that it loses the 15 year minimum sentence

That was literally the text that was a link.

From the link:

Sexual conduct with a child under the age of 13, or with a child age 13 to 16 where the defendant is in a position of authority, is punishable by a minimum of 15 years in prison, up to life imprisonment.

The 15 year minimum sentence only goes up to 16 years.

I was slightly wrong about the punishment for third degree (which is what it would have been if he was 16), it seems it just has a maximum sentence of 15 years (no minimum). But my primary point was correct, that there'd be no minimum 15 years if the boy was 16.

...

It all leads back to the point many sensible people are making in this thread. NOBODY is saying what she did was fine, nobody is saying she should not be punished. But a 15 year mandatory minimum sentence for a 15 year old who gave consent (even if legally he doesn't have the right to give consent) is absurd.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

sure, its illegal, but you'd be crazy to think that this isn't something generally any 15 year old boy wouldn't jump at.

You are talking to terrisus, bruv.

 

[Vilam]

Can we all at least agree that the judge in this story is a real piece of shit? How the hell is it appropriate to hand down a harsher sentence because people sent letters of support to the teacher? That had nothing to do with the actions she was facing trial for.

Just more power tripping bullshit from a judge... Par for the course.

 

[Koppai]

15 years is a bit much though, he may have been underage but he knew what he was doing, and it happened more than just a few times. I'm really on the fence about it. But I have never been in his position so I can't really judge him or the teacher either. It is wrong to cross the line with a student but they give murderers and drug dealers less time. I doubt she will have to do all that time though. I bet she will end up doing 1 year and have the rest as probation.

 

[John Rabbit]

15 years is excessive, but I seriously doubt she'll serve the majority of it. the fact that she's (most probably) destroyed her marriage, (definitely) ruined her career, and will have to be register as a sex offender will have a more lasting impact on her life.