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[Gambit 1138]

lol wut

 

[A Human Becoming]

sentenced to one year for every year that kid was alive.

That would be terrible reasoning. Abusers of younger children would get less.

 

[ICKE]

This sort of punitive sentencing is insane. She made a mistake and should definitely deal with the consequences but 15 years in prison, no future employment prospects, probably a ruined marriage and registered as a sex offender.

Her life is over.

She originally faced five counts of criminal sexual misconduct, but took a plea deal last month for lesser charges. Instead of life in prison, she got 15 years with parole eligibility in five-and-a-half years.

Read : She did not have enough money for proper legal representation so the only choice was to take the plea deal. The American justice system is a joke.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I

I also have no sympathy for Ronk's husband. I have a feeling that their marriage was growing stale/boring and that he wasn't there for her in times of need.

LOTS of relationships go south, but that doesn't mean they sleep with a 15 year old because of it. Where were the fraternity guys or even other gentlemen?

You come home to news of your wife's ongoing affair with a kid who can't even buy an M rated video game or go see an R rated film.

 

[GameGuru59]

And you want to change it to some other magic line of [insert age here] where all of a sudden you gain "magical sexual clairvoyance!"

Ultimately the law has to be practical and consistent. As a society we don't want teachers fucking their adolescent students. We don't want them fucking their students in general, but on the basis of consistency and practicality we draw the line at underage.

No, we don't have to have a line, we can have a gradient like some European countries apparently have. I would say, once the person's crossed puberty, the punishment should reduce dramatically. It could reduce gradually until the age of 17 or 18. That's better than an arbitrary line.

Some want to argue that some teenagers are capable of "handling it." Sure. But a great many aren't, and we can't have the situation where people say "I thought s/he was mature enough" as a defense. Additionally, we can't or don't practically want a system where we have to check each kid and stamp them for sexual maturity. While I guess that would help fill out jobs but it's not exactly a great use of resources.

Again, we can have a gradient. Or even psychological evaluations if it makes people feel better. There's alot of room to alter the law here to arrive at a true state of justice. Also, it would help if there were some scientific study showing permanent harm to boys from sex of this nature. Right now, there only seems to be speculation about them having bigger egos after the deed or something of that ilk. That's true of just about every hetero male after getting some.

Finally, there are some that want to say that because it's a young male, it should be looked at differently. What you are doing by saying that is perpetuating the idea that males cannot be raped except in extraordinary circumstances. Furthermore, you continue to assert your patriarchal view of women's sexuality by "protecting" them further into life, saying they're not ready until later.

I don't really consider statutory rape possible beyond 16 or so, rape at all (for either gender), so that first part really doesn't apply. As for the second part, yes I do think women should wait later as a general rule because their bodies bear children. They have a greater responsibility in the equation. Now, in moral terms, you could argue that males bear equal responsibility in theory. But this isn't even legally true- only women can abort children. And to save you time in reading further, this is why they "hold the keys" to sex.

Your first reaction to a 15 yo girl having sex with a 30 year old male teacher is "string him up!"
Your first reaction to a 15 yo boy having sex with a 30 year old female teacher is "'atta boy!"

Not exactly. But I would be much more suspicious of the 30 y/o male teacher fucking the 15 y/o girl. Because women hold the keys to sex.

This reaction betrays a sexist point of view. All this serves to do is reinforce harmful gender stereotypes. As it turns out, a lot of teenage girls want and have sex. A lot of teenage girls are more emotionally and mentally mature than their male counterparts. There are teenage girls that desire and attempt to seduce their male teachers. Just as there are teenage boys that aren't ready for sex, that are uncomfortable by the pressure put on them to be sexually ready and active, and who don't want their first time to be with someone who has authority over them, not to mention emotional, intellectual, and physical dominance over them.

I agree. It is sexist. But it is a view grounded in reality. Nutritionists state that African American (like myself) should consume less sodium because have scientific evidence that black people's bodies cannot process as much sodium as their white counterparts. Are these nutritionists racists in this respect? Yes. But their racism is grounded in fact.

This is not to say that women are less "prepared" to have sex at those ages (on the contrary, women seem to mature emotionally faster than men in this period of development), but it is to say that women have more to deal with physically than men at this age. Moreover, because women hold the keys to sex, and will for the rest of their lives, it is crucial to their development that they learn to be discerning regarding their sexual partners. It's inherent in their healthy development, whereas men are meant to spread their seed to as many partners as they can possibly acquire. Therefore when a much older man approaches a much younger woman, the power dynamic is (usually) much different than an older woman approaching a much younger man. It doesn't matter whether it's "sexist" or "fair" or not. It's reality. And it's an inherent component of our evolutionary development.

Trying to take away agency from females and placing it all on males is, frankly, bullshit for both genders.

Women have agency, but they usually don't act on it because it's not in their evolutionary interest to do so.

You attempt to obfuscate the issue by making this kind of assertion:


You go from making a claim about a boy's mental state, and then comparing it to a girl's physical state. This quote does a lot to illuminate the issues with your point. First, you imply that boys are somehow more resilient mentally to this sort of situation, to which I'd like a citation, or at least a definition of "real harm." Right now it smacks of bullshit like "boys have keys, girls have locks" breakdowns.

Aye. I am asserting the the predominant mental state as expressed via gender is tied to the physical state of (male/female) sex. Obviously, it doesn't always work out this way because there are LGBT people.

Secondly, you act as though pregnancy is something that is completely a non-issue to males. What happens if the boy gets his teacher pregnant? Do you really think that males have no emotional attachment to having a potential child?

They might have emotional attachment. But they have no physical responsibility.

That maybe the boy would want to see that child brought to term? That maybe the woman would bring it to term, despite the boy's potential wishes otherwise? How about that a 15 year old boy is really not an ideal father in our society?

There are plenty of other types of people that are not "ideal fathers." And on the issue of male's wishes on an abortion of their child, I don't really think there should be abortion at all- so I sort of reject the premise. Though, I will say, I also advocate for the "mincome" and a much more expansive social safety net than we have currently in the US, so please don't lump me in with the generic anti-abortion type.

Ultimately it makes sense from a social point of view as well as a justice point of view to draw a clear line. Teachers shouldn't fuck their students. Adults fucking minors is rape.

Again. Why? Is there some sort of scientific evidence (other than the fact some people find it objectionable) that underage males are harmed by having consentual sex with older partners? I would argue that underage females are (see above), but I'd be willing to lower the age across the board just to be "fair"- though I see no need to do that. Men and women are different.

Because 15 year olds are dumb.

Emancipate yourself if you want full legal rights.

There are dumb people at every age. Again. Where is the evidence that a pubescent male is harmed by having sex at an age around the time he evolved to have sex?

 

[Karsticles]

Why? Surely one is worse than the other, right? Sheesh, in LegalGAF, it's as if deontology is the only normative ethical perspective in existence.

Laws are, by definition, deontological, so it's easy to understand why this is the case.

 

[kevm3]

I have a feeling the reactions would be a lot different than the 'oh it's consensual. Oh they know what they want at 15' if the lady was either unattractive or was a male giving a 15 year old girl alcohol and banging her out.

 

[GameGuru59]

Laws are, by definition, deontological, so it's easy to understand why this is the case.

Yes, but the sentencing here was not. The judge had discretion. Moreover, the length of jail time is a value judgement on the harm caused by the infraction. Therefore, in my mind, asking "which is worse?" is a valid question to ask of the system.

 

[kevm3]

we don't call those people "rapists"

that term conjures a completely image than what happened here

also...

if the minor was engaged in sexual activity previously, i think we can all drop the "oh poor victim" meme

Be real. A male 30 year old teacher giving a 15 year old student alcohol and banging her out in the classroom would be called worse than a rapist. he'd be called a pedo... and no, nobody would dare make some excuse of 'well she wanted it because she consented and she was having sex before.'

 

[GameGuru59]

Be real. A male 30 year old teacher giving a 15 year old student alcohol and banging her out in the classroom would be called worse than a rapist. he'd be called a pedo... and no, nobody would dare make some excuse of 'well she wanted it because she consented and she was having sex before.'

But that's not what happened. The opposite happened.

 

[wildfire]

It's debatable whether a rape actually occurred. Law and justice are two very different things.

There appears to be very little evidence that teenage boys that engage in sex with adult women have any long term damage. Rather, it seems we attach the same punishment that one would to an adult man having sex with a teenage girl- which is a very different scenario. We do this because we (as a society) are too politically correct to acknowledge that having sex with a teenage boy renders no real harm to the boy's body or mind, whereas a teenage girl bears the potential responsibility of bearing a child by her partner. If anyone has any evidence showing a causal link to some detriment to teenage boys development being caused (other than just speaking it into existence) by their engaging in underage sex with a teacher, a discussion can be had.
.

This statement you made is a mess.

I agree with the idea that boys are less likely to have long term emotional damage.
There exists growing evidence that it can damage boys directly from the statements of past victims.
With the way American laws are structured boys still face severe penalties because they will be on the hook for child support if they had sex with a woman.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[Shaanyboi]

15 years? What?

 

[POWERSPHERE]

How can she get 15 years when violent rapists or actual pedophiles get less?

 

[royalan]

But she has parole eligibility after 5 years, right?

Doesn't that mean that unless she fucks up royally in prison, she'll likely only spend 5 years locked up?

 

[Fenderputty]

I personally think our age of consent laws are fucked. I don't think there's a real easy solution, but drawing a line in the sand and not allowing leeway will see people who probably shouldn't be serving time, serving time. This is regardless of gender.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Isn't there a difference between inappropriate sex between student and teacher and statutory rape?

Doesn't the law differentiate between both?

 

[Metal B]

15 years sound to be way too much.
There should be a huge difference, how the case looks on paper and how the victim is actually suffering from the situation. Some bring up, that people would be more okay with ruling, if the genders were switched and the culprit would be ugly. You know, that actually is a difference. The boy will have much less of an psychological damage, doing a good looking teacher and having some kind of control over there relationship, then being forced by an ugly woman. He is not five and old enough to understand the situation.

This doesn't mean the teacher should not be sentenced for other charges, but i guess the main verdict was for the relationship with an underage kid. Rule according to the damage and not to the wording of the case. This is about humane beings and we should not trough away the live of person, only because of overly strict moral values.

 

[royalan]

I personally think our age of consent laws are fucked. I don't think there's a real easy solution, but drawing a line in the sand and not allowing leeway will see people who probably shouldn't be serving time, serving time. This is regardless of gender.

But I also feel like if we start allowing leeway and leaving it up to the discretion of so-and-so judge, you're more likely to see the line pushed back in these cases of 'Super Hot Female Teacher fucks male student' than the other way around. And both instances are equally wrong, so that wouldn't be right.

 

[thecouncil]

That would be terrible reasoning. Abusers of younger children would get less.

Well, it's not reasoning. Just a statement of fact. Coincidental, really, but it happened.

 

[The Sarcastic Dude]

Isn't there a difference between inappropriate sex between student and teacher and statutory rape?

Doesn't the law differentiate between both?

That usually happens when the student is above the age of consent. The student is below the age of consent, so It would be both.

 

[Puppet Shadow]

...

Ultimately it makes sense from a social point of view as well as a justice point of view to draw a clear line. Teachers shouldn't fuck their students. Adults fucking minors is rape.

Great post, sums up my thoughts as well.

 

[hirokazu]

Why the fuck did HuffPo accompany the article with a gallery with the pedo's Facebook pictures? How is that relevant or appropriate?

 

[Ganzlinger]

15 years in prison is insane... at least for me, because this isn't statutory rape in my country (age of consent here is 14).

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Isn't there a difference between inappropriate sex between student and teacher and statutory rape?

Doesn't the law differentiate between both?

Not sure about the US, but for sure here in the UK. Age of consent is 16 in the UK, but a teacher can go to jail for having sex with a 17 year old.

 

[Newt]

I would give her like 1 year in prison.

 

[family_guy]

This sort of punitive sentencing is insane. She made a mistake and should definitely deal with the consequences but 15 years in prison, no future employment prospects, probably a ruined marriage and registered as a sex offender.

Her life is over.



Read : She did not have enough money for proper legal representation so the only choice was to take the plea deal. The American justice system is a joke.

She'll be out in 5 but the ruling is more to make a statement that this stuff won't fly no matter your sex, race, and how good looking you are.

 

[scabro]

Not cool. Its pretty disgusting that the perpetrator is the one getting support. Could you imagine if the gender roles were reversed? Everyone would be up in arms.

 

[x3sphere]

So was it consensual or not? I'd imagine when I was 15, I wouldn't have minded this at all if it was consensual. If it was consensual then maybe a slap on the wrist should do it. Just because he's 15 doesn't mean that he's mentally retarded and can't make his own decisions.

If it wasn't consensual though, then she should most definitely be punished.

Whether or not the kid is capable of making decisions doesn't matter, the 30 year old adult is assumed to be the responsible one here. You have to be somewhat screwed up in the head to go through with something like this, knowing that it will destroy not only your job but career. Especially as a teacher, someone kids look up to as an authority figure. I'm not saying 15 years jail time is the answer but a slap on the wrist is definitely not enough.

 

[TheStruggler]

That's the terrifying thing. I said in one of my earlier posts that I have no idea what an appropriate sentence should be, but 15 years in this situation, whether she was male or female, does not seem appropriate. And life is definitely not appropriate.

im thinking anywhere between 3-7 at most I would think

 

[Fenderputty]

But I also feel like if we start allowing leeway and leaving it up to the discretion of so-and-so judge, you're more likely to see the line pushed back in these cases of 'Super Hot Female Teacher fucks male student' than the other way around. And both instances are equally wrong, so that wouldn't be right.

I agree double standards would be more prevalent. I'm not really suggesting compete discretion by a judge though either. It's really a difficult concept to tackle. Which is why we just stick to arbitrary lines in the sand.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

This sort of punitive sentencing is insane. She made a mistake and should definitely deal with the consequences but 15 years in prison, no future employment prospects, probably a ruined marriage and registered as a sex offender.

Her life is over.



Read : She did not have enough money for proper legal representation so the only choice was to take the plea deal. The American justice system is a joke.

meanwhile, a teen gets away from murder because he has rich parents and they didn't teach him right from wrong.

 

[Trey]

sentenced to one year for every year that kid was alive.

If there was ever an "I fucked up" face, this is it.

15 years instead of life though. The prosecution came for that ass.

 

[Dead Man]

Yeah, she fucked up, but 15 years is too much to me. 5 would make more sense to me depending on the severity of the crime. Plead guilty, knows she fucked up, 15 is too much. I'd say the same if the genders were reversed too I think. Wondering what crimes are lesser than 'criminal sexual misconduct' which also give a 15 year sentence.

Also:

Ronk faces additional charges of rape and child sex abuse in Macomb Circuit Court, with a trial date set for March 31 unless another deal is made, WXYZ reports.

Yeah, she's in for more.

 

[GameGuru59]

But I also feel like if we start allowing leeway and leaving it up to the discretion of so-and-so judge, you're more likely to see the line pushed back in these cases of 'Super Hot Female Teacher fucks male student' than the other way around. And both instances are equally wrong, so that wouldn't be right.

The answer is to have a total rewrite of the law. Not to leave it up to the judge. The law should be contextual based on a variety of variables, and NOT left up to the judge. This is the problem that causes both of these issues. Personally, I'd leave it at no more than a year, max for this type of offense. Drunk driving is a misdemeanor in many jurisdictions, and that causes real, physical damage. The damage here is at, worst, psychological.

The judge is an asshole, and so is the prosecutor. Just reminds me why I didn't become a lawyer.

 

[SpectreFire]

Man, what does 15 years even do? That's overkill on top of overkill. It's entirely unnecessary. Hell, even just 1 year and having her name permanently on a sex offenders list is more than enough punishment to deter her permanently from doing this any more.

All this sentence does is ramp up the prosecutor's career, maybe earn him or her a nice bonus, and cost the taxpayers a ridiculous amount of money to lock-up someone who doesn't need to be locked up for nearly that much time.

Sex laws in the US are ridiculous and the system surround it is terrible corrupt. It's too hilariously easy to get sex convictions these days, so every prosecutor will throw the book at offenders to boost their own portfolio of cases and wins.

 

[Newt]

Not cool. Its pretty disgusting that the perpetrator is the one getting support. Could you imagine if the gender roles were reversed? Everyone would be up in arms.

It's disgusting wanting reasonable punishments for the offender?

 

[D.Lo]

There needs to be a sliding scale for statutory rape laws. It's weird when the laws (like it seems this Michigan one) make no distinction between a 5 year old kid and a 16 year old.

Seems that law mandates the same minimum sentence for a 50 year old to have sex with a 2 year old as it does a 19 year old having sex with a 16 year old (if in a position of power).

If this teacher was say an 18 year old assistant, it would technically be the same crime, even though she would then basically be a peer of the victim.

So that's why the sentence seems insane. The boy is on the cusp of being fully legal. It's like if going 1km over the speed limit and 80km over the speed limit had the same fine.

 

[timetokill]

So that's why the sentence seems insane. The boy is on the cusp of being fully legal. It's like if going 1km over the speed limit and 80km over the speed limit had the same fine.

He's 3 years away, or in other words 20% of his life away from being fully legal. That's a pretty big "cusp."

Plus, it's a teacher with her own high school student, which is illegal anyway.

 

[Slayer-33]

First thing, there's clearly something a bit off with someone (in that position) willing to do something like this, not justified by any means but it's something that must be considered.

Second the situation needs to be investigated and weighed when it comes to sentencing, specially if it was consensual, with guaranteed punishment for the perp regardless of consent or not but obviously weighing in potential severity depending of how things took place.

1st offenses should be the most crucially lenient in favor of the accused barring obvious and extremely criminal depravity or severity of the crime by a male or female.

After all of that you come to a REASONABLE JUDGEMENT. Ignoring looks and sex of the accused.

Sexual acts are PART of organic nature, things can escalate on misguided actions because of the nature of it, the multiplier to the punishment is like I said the extent of consent granted, people of certain age are capable of reasonably deciding to do or not to do it.

As is, the 15 year sentence is absurd, the loss of work and other consequences involved are enough, the fact that it's apparently a first offense and no other reason to believe that it was a rampant problem beforehand or evil & predatory.

A 1 year jail sentence is way past enough + the other consequences of conviction in her personal life, counseling for both parties and community service for the woman would be a fair sentence + more serious consequences for the convicted if she does something of this nature again.

As is if you really think about it this is some insane batshit sentence for a mistake made by a 30 year old adult, even at the point of parole I think that this is some seriously life wrecking sentence for her.

 

[Polari]

15 years in prison is absolutely fucking batshit insane. In New Zealand you'd probably get a years' probation and some community service if it was a first offence.

 

[Tesseract]

i never knew a single kid in high school who thought the adults held positions of power over us. 15 years is outrageous, her life is over.

i feel like the position of power argument is weak, unprovable.

 

[GameGuru59]

15 years in prison is absolutely fucking batshit insane. In New Zealand you'd probably get a years' probation and some community service if it was a first offence.

As has clearly been demonstrated, the United States is not a reasonable country. This doesn't even affect me, but I'm really angry about this.

 

[D.Lo]

He's 3 years away, or in other words 20% of his life away from being fully legal. That's a pretty big "cusp."

Plus, it's a teacher with her own high school student, which is illegal anyway.

No, age of consent in Michigan is 16, and the law she's being charged under was posted on page 3. 16 is the cutoff for this law, and it only applies up to 16 if you're in a position of power, otherwise it's 13:

"Sexual conduct with a child under the age of 13, or with a child age 13 to 16 where the defendant is in a position of authority, is punishable by a minimum of 15 years in prison, up to life imprisonment."

So he's 1-6% (depending on birthdate) of his life away from being fully legal and likely NO jail time, as waiting a few months moves the crime from second degree criminal sexual conduct to either not a criminal offence (if not a teacher) or fourth degree criminal sexual conduct (if a teacher).

And way to miss my entire point about a sliding scale. Even if age of consent was 18 my point was the law makes little distinction between a two year old and a 13-15 year old, and a massive gulf in distinction as soon as they are 16.

 

[Slayven]

Does she got to register as a sex offender?

 

[Ric Flair]

This is stupid. If its consensual it shouldn't be 15 years and rape when the teenager is ~15-16 years old. That's old enough whether or not to know you want to stick it in somebody. I understand there are laws and she broke them, but to ruin her life over this is more fucked up than what she did in my opinon. The punishment doesn't equal the crime

 

[Tesseract]

the law def needs to start accounting for age and mindfulness (with significant psych evaluations)

 

[TheStruggler]

i never knew a single kid in high school who thought the adults held positions of power over us. 15 years is outrageous, her life is over.

i feel like the position of power argument is weak, unprovable.

when you were in school and or are when a teacher told you to stop talking did you stop, when they said out away your cell phone did you put it away, when at parent teacher meetings did the teach point out your faults as a student and hope you get better, if ever in the principal office did you sit and listen and speak last. teachers have power a simple "stop talking because I am" and you stopping is power. You were just on the wrong side of the desk to realise it

 

[minx]

She is never going to see anywhere near that 15 years with good behavior.

Don't do the crime if you can't pay the time. This wasn't a lapse of judgement one time fuck up. She had plenty of time to think and realize... Maybe I shouldn't be doing this with the known consequences.

 

[E92 M3]

Dat for profit prison system. 15 years is fucking rediculous.

 

[eso76]

How do you feel about male teachers who have had sex with female students?

Differently.

Because unlike a lot of people here keen on performing political correctness at all costs, I don't see a problem with acknowledging males and females ARE different when it comes to a lot of things. I actually see a problem in pretending these differences don't exist.

I feel differently because male and female victims won't be affected to nearly the same degree or even in the same way at all ( We're talking post puberty ).
Because it's hard to imagine a 15 y/o guy will ever feel regret, shame or suffer a trauma from having had consensual sex with an oder girl.
Because I just dont buy the teacher needing to take advantage of her position, lie about her intentions, deceiving and taking advantage of the guy's young age and limited judgment capacity for him to agree to have sex.

Now, with reversed roles though, of course. In all likelyhood, a 30 y/o man would need to resort to all kinds of dirty tricks for a 15 y/o girl's defences to fall.

There's biological reasons and instincts tied to the survival of the species for women and men having different criteria for selecting sex partners. Actually, even doing any kind of selection at all.

Of course what she did is still deontologically wrong but the hypocrisy here is through the roof.
To call this rape is a travesty.