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[QSD]

The fuck? So having a family that works to stay together and foster a healthy nurturing environment is just random chance?

It's called teamwork.

No it isn’t. That is fucking nonsense. It is a credit to his parents and their values. Luck is not getting struck by lightning. Having decent parents is something that was earned by those people.

It’s a legacy you inherit from them and if you have any gratitude, you do what you can to carry it on to your children. That’s not luck. What a ridiculous thing to say.

Sometimes I wonder whether you are wilfully misunderstanding what I say. What part of "you don't choose what family you are born into" is so hard to understand? It's luck if you as a person are born into a stable family and not into destitution. Whether somebody's parents are loving and invested or absent or deadbeats is not a thing that person can exert much control over, but it's extremely important to someone's perspective.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Sometimes I wonder whether you are wilfully misunderstanding what I say. What part of "you don't choose what family you are born into" is so hard to understand? It's luck if you as a person are born into a stable family and not into destitution. Whether somebody's parents are loving and invested or absent or deadbeats is not a thing that person can exert much control over, but it's extremely important to someone's perspective.

It’s dismissive to call having good parents luck. It’s luck in the same way everyone alive is lucky to be born now instead in the middle of the Black Plague. It’s nonsensical. You don’t choose your parents, but your parents choose how they parent you. Just because a person doesn’t control an aspect of there life doesn’t mean that that aspect is simply “luck”. It’s a result of the decisions other people made. In this case, a person’s parents. To reduce a family’s values and proper decisions down to luck is foolishness. It’s reductionist to absurdity.

No, you don’t choose your parents, but on some level, they choose you and they definitely choose what kind of life they set you up with.

 

[QSD]

It’s dismissive to call having good parents luck. It’s luck in the same way everyone alive is lucky to be born now instead in the middle of the Black Plague. It’s nonsensical. You don’t choose your parents, but your parents choose how they parent you. Just because a person doesn’t control an aspect of there life doesn’t mean that that aspect is simply “luck”. It’s a result of the decisions other people made. In this case, a person’s parents. To reduce a family’s values and proper decisions down to luck is foolishness. It’s reductionist to absurdity.

No, you don’t choose your parents, but on some level, they choose you and they definitely choose what kind of life they set you up with.

Some of you people are really allergic to the word "luck"
I'd say it's correct to say it's luck that you were born today, and not during the black plague. It's also luck that you were born in a rich country and not in South Sudan. Why is that nonsensical?

Obviously it's to parents' credit if they raise you well and set you up in life, but their effort and commitment is your luck. If you're a kid and your parents just beat you like a dog and feed you shit, it's not your fault either. How is that reductionist?

 

[jason10mm]

Sometimes I wonder whether you are wilfully misunderstanding what I say. What part of "you don't choose what family you are born into" is so hard to understand? It's luck if you as a person are born into a stable family and not into destitution. Whether somebody's parents are loving and invested or absent or deadbeats is not a thing that person can exert much control over, but it's extremely important to someone's perspective.

Plenty of kids from well off households go on to make poor decisions and plenty of kids from struggling homes succeed. Just throwing up your hands and saying "it's ALL luck" is lazy defeatism and is probably why those people struggle no matter what their circumstances.

 

[MrMephistoX]

This narrative that the interviewee is just a poor little victim of a vicious, evil, mocking interviewer... It needs to stop, and stop right now. It's part of yet another symptom going on here in America: everyone is a victim, all the time. Can people EVER be held accountable for their actions? Can people be given the agency they definitely have? Christ.

You know what the legacy media is like. You know what the internet is like -- I mean, these people reside on the internet.

They are a movement that wanted media attention and make the broader world aware of their cause. But they went into a mainstream media interview without proper guidance and preparation, and got wrecked.

The stupid victim mentality is to sit in a corner and cry and blame your failures on others. It's a disservice to people that are legitimate victims of actual injustices committed all over the world. The better mentality -- and what should happen -- is that they take this as a lesson learned and prepare better for future media interviews. From some of the screenshots posted on this thread from that Sub-Reddit, it seems that they are indeed taking steps and applying lessons learned. So, good for them for doing that.

Exactly there’s a reason why companies hire PR firms for media coaching and talking points. As gamers we’re all well aware of it.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Some of you people are really allergic to the word "luck"
I'd say it's correct to say it's luck that you were born today, and not during the black plague. It's also luck that you were born in a rich country and not in South Sudan. Why is that nonsensical?

Obviously it's to parents' credit if they raise you well and set you up in life, but their effort and commitment is your luck. If you're a kid and your parents just beat you like a dog and feed you shit, it's not your fault either. How is that reductionist?

You have effectively reduced the word luck down to meaninglessness. By this token you’re “lucky” that a farmer raised the food you eat. You’re lucky someone built the house you live in. You’re lucky the electric company keeps the lights on. So basically, anything that happens in the world that you aren’t directly responsible for is just luck.

This is fun actually. It’s lucky that the guys who put my car together didn’t fuck it up. It’s lucky that our ancestors in this country carved such an amazing nation out of the wilderness. It’s lucky that the Allies won World War 2. It’s lucky that Al Gore created the internet.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I'm not going to call that luck, but the fact that you had a dad, he was around and you grew up in a stable, close-knit family is definitely luck, not an achievement on your part.

Sounds like you're calling it luck to me. As if you are trying to delegitimize anyone in life who did decent trying to make up reasons. Believe it or not some people in life (good family or not) succeed because they just get their ass in gear and follow the normal boring path of school and getting a job. You dont need to be born with a silver platter, a butler and the best parents in the world to lead a decent life.

My immigrant parents came to Canada broke, zero english and all 4 of their parents were killed when they were about 10 years old. They started rock bottom and made they up the ladder. And because their parents were dead it means the according uncles and aunts (their siblings) were in the same boat. They were raised by their grandparents who were unskilled people. And because of that I never even had grandparents! They all died like 30 years before I was born! My parents did english class for years and my dad worked as a waiter during the day and did night classes after dinner getting a university education over 8 years or so. They were finally able to buy a car at age 36 (I think).

Now if they can make it, anyone can. Go ahead and delegitimize my parents with whatever reasons you can think of.

And make note, I'm not the only one in this situation. I'm sure many other gaffers had a similar experience.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Plenty of kids from well off households go on to make poor decisions and plenty of kids from struggling homes succeed. Just throwing up your hands and saying "it's ALL luck" is lazy defeatism and is probably why those people struggle no matter what their circumstances.

No doubt.

It's like saying Sally down the street did well because her parents didnt get divorced. And the reason Susan next door did lousy is because her parents were cold or was a single parent household.

Those might be contributing factors. But you also got to look at Sally's and Susan's efforts too.

If everything is based on luck or a how stable the parents are, then nobody should even bother trying for anything. Just sit on the couch and let god tap you on the shoulder deciding whether you succeed or fail based on magical fate.

 

[QSD]

You have effectively reduced the word luck down to meaninglessness. By this token you’re “lucky” that a farmer raised the food you eat. You’re lucky someone built the house you live in. You’re lucky the electric company keeps the lights on. So basically, anything that happens in the world that you aren’t directly responsible for is just luck.

This is fun actually. It’s lucky that the guys who put my car together didn’t fuck it up. It’s lucky that our ancestors in this country carved such an amazing nation out of the wilderness. It’s lucky that the Allies won World War 2. It’s lucky that Al Gore created the internet.

Ehm, look, we were talking about personal responsibility / achievement vs luck

obviously putting a car together correctly is not luck. But if you buy a car that happens not to be assembled properly and your neighbour buys the same model and it's fine I would call that bad luck on your part. Is it so hard to understand that other people's efforts/labors (or lack thereof, as in the example above) that you more or less inherit (like for example the allies winning WW2) are just lucky for you as an individual. They are circumstances you have no control over, can take no credit for or assume responsibility over.

No doubt.

It's like saying Sally down the street did well because her parents didnt get divorced. And the reason Susan next door did lousy is because her parents were cold or was a single parent household.

Those might be contributing factors. But you also got to look at Sally's and Susan's efforts too.

If everything is based on luck or a how stable the parents are, then nobody should even bother trying for anything. Just sit on the couch and let god tap you on the shoulder deciding whether you succeed or fail based on magical fate.

dude, you're ranting, settle down, I'm not trying to deligitimize your parents' struggles or saying (anywhere in this thread) that you shouldn't make an effort and apply yourself. I realize that there are always stories that buck the trend, and more power to them, but the kind of nest you grow up in is hugely influential on your outlook and prospects in life. Most kids with disaffected or absent parents suffer consequences. Those consequences are not their fault, hence I would call that 'bad luck' for them.

I don know how else to explain this point that someone else's effortful actions can be part of your luck, it seems obvious to me.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Ehm, look, we were talking about personal responsibility / achievement vs luck

obviously putting a car together correctly is not luck. But if you buy a car that happens not to be assembled properly and your neighbour buys the same model and it's fine I would call that bad luck on your part. Is it so hard to understand that other people's efforts/labors (or lack thereof, as in the example above) that you more or less inherit (like for example the allies winning WW2) are just lucky for you as an individual. They are circumstances you have no control over, can take no credit for or assume responsibility over.


dude, you're ranting, settle down, I'm not trying to deligitimize your parents' struggles or saying (anywhere in this thread) that you shouldn't make an effort and apply yourself. I realize that there are always stories that buck the trend, and more power to them, but the kind of nest you grow up in is hugely influential on your outlook and prospects in life. Most kids with disaffected or absent parents suffer consequences. Those consequences are not their fault, hence I would call that 'bad luck' for them.

I don know how else to explain this point that someone else's effortful actions can be part of your luck, it seems obvious to me.

Sometimes we benefit from the things earned by those before us. But that isn’t luck in the same way finding a $100 bill on the pavement is luck or winning the lottery is luck. What you are basically saying is that any circumstance in your life is essentially luck. Even if you parents put in the work to give you a leg up, it’s just luck that your parents weren’t degenerate meth heads. And while that is true from a cosmic sense, from a personal sense, it isn’t true at all. Your parents created your “luck” with hard work. And rather than just say “phew, aren’t I lucky”, the proper response is to be thankful and pass the same thing on to your kids, this perpetrating that “good luck” forward.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

Most kids with disaffected or absent parents suffer consequences.

Correct.

Those consequences are not their fault, hence I would call that 'bad luck' for them.

Correct... To an extent. At least here in the United States, people have freedom of action/freedom of choice. Which gives individual agency and influence over their own lives. So at some point it stops being bad luck, and starts becoming personal poor choices.

An adolescent or young adult that has grown in a bad situation has enough agency and assessment of the self/surroundings to think that, at some point, the situation they're in is not optimal. So a reasonable person will start thinking and asking others what they can do to get out of those crappy situations. Your parents suck? There are community outreach programs, school counselors, churches, etc, to guide you in the right direction.

The story of the reformed criminal that finds religion or new meaning, while in jail, and gets out of jail to then become a productive member of society, is a story as old as time itself. Know why? Because those criminals look at the prison and say, "you know that? This situation sucks donkey balls. What personal decisions can I make so that I don't end up in this shit hole again?"

If criminals can do it, other people can. Attributing someone's ultimate shitty condition purely to luck is not only incorrectly victimizing that person, but removing their agency to the point of dehuminizing.

I've noticed that a lot of these excuses are made for native born Americans. Like StreetsofBeige has said time and again, the story of the penniless immigrant who comes and works hard, and finds success in the process, is also a common one. And quite often, an immigrant will come to the country without money, without knowing the language, with minimal community resources. So the immigrant is starting off way more handicapped compared to the native-born person, in that sense.

So if a penniless, language-handicapped immigrant can do it, why can't the natives do it?

 

[Bonfires Down]

I think he/she did a decent interview. Why would you expect the leader of a subreddit like that to have a high stakes job? It makes no sense. If you have been on the sub then you would know that the average member there is much worse than this person. A lot of them happily admit that they just want to sit on their fat ass all day and get paid for it. I also think it’s important that we as a society find ways to work less and live more. We have the technology. So it’s unfortunate that the sub is such a dumpster fire, and I eventually had to unsub. But yeah, I think the person who went on Fox seems reasonable.

 

[jason10mm]

So if a penniless, language-handicapped immigrant can do it, why can't the natives do it?

Because people who espoused this B$ are folks who think Americans have a caste system like India or something. The circumstances of your parents has only a tangential effect on YOUR circumstances in America. This is the American Dream in a nutshell.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

I think he/she did a decent interview.

I disagree. The interviewee was:
1. Not very presentable -- unkempt, messy room, etc. Gives an impression that the people behind this movement are "lazy" (more on that in a bit).
2. Failed basic interview etiquette -- would avoid eye/camera contact, fidgety, etc. Doesn't convey a strong position.
3. "Laziness is a virtue" -- I'm sorry, I can't get beyond the fact that saying that was a fatal mistake; the interview died right then and there. Except it didn't, since it kept going downhill from there.

Why would you expect the leader of a subreddit like that to have a high stakes job? It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. *IF* the goal of the subreddit was truly to achieve better work-life balance, or highlight our American culture's emphasis/reliance on overwork, then you would expect the leader of such movement to be a burned out Wall Street banker, or an engineer in a high-demand industry, or someone fresh out of a medical residency; point is, any high-demand, high-stress field. Their personal experience of overwork would lend a lot more credibility in that case.

If you have been on the sub

This is a weak argument; not many of us have been to the sub. But, more importantly, a good majority of the listeners of the Fox interview have not been to the sub. The whole point was to highlight/showcase this movement and bring it OUT of the sub and into the mainstream, as a serious effort. It did succeed in bringing it out of the sub, but it absolutely failed on the second part (showing that it's a serious movement with concerns that people can relate to.)

then you would know that the average member there is much worse than this person.

That much I could infer, so I guess we can agree there.

A lot of them happily admit that they just want to sit on their fat ass all day and get paid for it.

This is where the "laziness is a virtue" became the death toll at the interview. In that sense, it was an accurate representation of a large segment of the sub members.

I also think it’s important that we as a society find ways to work less and live more. We have the technology. So it’s unfortunate that the sub is such a dumpster fire, and I eventually had to unsub. But yeah, I think the person who went on Fox seems reasonable.

So how exactly does the movement plan to encourage the "work less, live more" paradigm? What would be the societal, cultural, or (most importantly) economic impact of working less across the board? (Actually, is it even "across the board," or are there professional fields that are more problematic than others?) Should everybody work less? If people have life financial goals that they want to achieve, should they just work less? Where is the money going to come from? A lot of questions, which ultimately result in the MAIN question: has the movement been thought out, with a clearly stated set of goals and objectives, and ways to achieve those goals? Or is it just an ill-defined, impractical, potentially naive hope?

 

[Goalus]

Slay, queen!

 

[Joshmyersbv]

I never understood why people don't want to work. You make money, spend it to take care of bills and family. Then you can either save the rest for vacation or buy something nice for yourself.

I wouldn't have all these cool games to play if I didn't work. I wouldn't have a car to drive to my favorite restaurant and get food there if I didn't work. I'm 33 years old and I just wouldn't be able to do all the things that I want without working.

I mean my job is hard and I work a lot of overtime but taking my kids go to a recreational center and have a great time is something I worked hard to get and to see the joy on my 9 month old sons face is priceless. I couldn't imagine being someone like this person and just not working and not having the opportunity to doing something for myself or others just because I'm fucking lazy.

 

[EviLore]

I never understood why people don't want to work. You make money, spend it to take care of bills and family. Then you can either save the rest for vacation or buy something nice for yourself.

I wouldn't have all these cool games to play if I didn't work. I wouldn't have a car to drive to my favorite restaurant and get food there if I didn't work. I'm 33 years old and I just wouldn't be able to do all the things that I want without working.

I mean my job is hard and I work a lot of overtime but taking my kids go to a recreational center and have a great time is something I worked hard to get and to see the joy on my 9 month old sons face is priceless. I couldn't imagine being someone like this person and just not working and not having the opportunity to doing something for myself or others just because I'm fucking lazy.

They don’t have hopes and dreams, kids, a spouse, hobbies, or things they want to do out in the world.

 

[bender]

They don’t have hopes and dreams, kids, a spouse, hobbies, or things they want to do out in the world.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

That's your average redditor.

I give Redditors just a fraction more credit, Reddit Mods on the other hand.... Fuck them.

 

[bender]

Fuck it, let's have a Office Space watch party. Who's coming with me?

 

[Dream-Knife]

I give Redditors just a fraction more credit, Reddit Mods on the other hand.... Fuck them.

Reddit is literally everything that is wrong with western society right now.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

Reddit is literally everything that is wrong with western society right now.

I don't disagree.

 

[Coolwhhip]

Reddit is literally everything that is wrong with western society right now.

What about Twitter? I would say any place on the internet where bitter, miserable people band together is bad.

 

[dr_octagon]

 

[Joshmyersbv]

They don’t have hopes and dreams, kids, a spouse, hobbies, or things they want to do out in the world.

So they live a meaningless existence? That's just sad, I couldn't even imagine living that way.

 

[nush]

So they live a meaningless existence? That's just sad, I couldn't even imagine living that way.

It's all they've ever known.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Reddit is literally everything that is wrong with western society right now.

Twitter is much worse imo.

I honestly believe Twitter is the main culprit but I get we can't get all political here but you know what I mean.

 

[QSD]

Sometimes we benefit from the things earned by those before us. But that isn’t luck in the same way finding a $100 bill on the pavement is luck or winning the lottery is luck. What you are basically saying is that any circumstance in your life is essentially luck. Even if you parents put in the work to give you a leg up, it’s just luck that your parents weren’t degenerate meth heads. And while that is true from a cosmic sense, from a personal sense, it isn’t true at all. Your parents created your “luck” with hard work. And rather than just say “phew, aren’t I lucky”, the proper response is to be thankful and pass the same thing on to your kids, this perpetrating that “good luck” forward.

I don't really disagree with anything you wrote here, but the question becomes more difficult when the things you inheret from your parents are negative. What if your parents are degenerate meth heads? Does society have some kind of responsibility to help you on your feet?

I recently saw a news item which bears on this a little. This was about children of NSB parents. The NSB was the Dutch political party that collaborated with the Nazis in WOII. After the war, NSB members were imprisoned or executed. Their children were sent to foster homes where they were often mistreaded or abandoned because of what their parents did. It was evident that many of the interviewed were scarred for life by this treatment. What would be your take on this?

I consider myself very fortunate that I come from a loving family. However I can never take credit for that. I don't know how I would have turned out if I had been beaten and locked inside a freezing barn night after night like the kids mentioned above. I feel iffy when we discuss such disparities between people's experiences as if it were a kind of 'family karma'. It only really works when the karma is good.

Correct.


Correct... To an extent. At least here in the United States, people have freedom of action/freedom of choice. Which gives individual agency and influence over their own lives. So at some point it stops being bad luck, and starts becoming personal poor choices.

An adolescent or young adult that has grown in a bad situation has enough agency and assessment of the self/surroundings to think that, at some point, the situation they're in is not optimal. So a reasonable person will start thinking and asking others what they can do to get out of those crappy situations. Your parents suck? There are community outreach programs, school counselors, churches, etc, to guide you in the right direction.

The story of the reformed criminal that finds religion or new meaning, while in jail, and gets out of jail to then become a productive member of society, is a story as old as time itself. Know why? Because those criminals look at the prison and say, "you know that? This situation sucks donkey balls. What personal decisions can I make so that I don't end up in this shit hole again?"

If criminals can do it, other people can. Attributing someone's ultimate shitty condition purely to luck is not only incorrectly victimizing that person, but removing their agency to the point of dehuminizing.

I've noticed that a lot of these excuses are made for native born Americans. Like StreetsofBeige has said time and again, the story of the penniless immigrant who comes and works hard, and finds success in the process, is also a common one. And quite often, an immigrant will come to the country without money, without knowing the language, with minimal community resources. So the immigrant is starting off way more handicapped compared to the native-born person, in that sense.

So if a penniless, language-handicapped immigrant can do it, why can't the natives do it?

This is a really different issue. I think if you think about it for a while it just becomes apparent: the story of the rags-to-riches immigrant is one that is self-chosen and self-determined. The immigrants made a conscious choice to come to the US/whatever other country to start a new life. This is a completely different backstory than that of natives, who didn't choose anything but were violently forced from their lands and subjugated. I can vividly imagine having some pretty mixed feelings if I knew that my ancestors heritage and culture was basically almost eradicated by the people who now rule this country. I can also imagine not feeling very comfortable conforming to or succeeding in that country/society as it would seem to betray the memory of what happened to my forefathers who fought this invasion.

 

[jason10mm]

Excuses. History is literally just a made up story we tell ourselves. You wanna be a poor Indian tribe on trash land because 150 years ago some guys distantly related to the folks living now kicked your equally distantly related ancestors to the curb? That story is true for EVERYONE at some point in time.

What matters is what YOU do NOW. Do you drink all day and live off welfare? Do you work hard, get educated, and move to where the jobs are? That's on YOU. Not a long culmination of genetic/inherited "luck".

 

[darkangel-212559]

Yea, I loled at this part. To teach philosophy, he would need at least 8 years of college to finally get his PhD. Despite what many uninformed people say, college is not easy and requires a lot of work and discipline. There are great expectations from you in academia if you possess a PhD. Many professors teach on top of conducting research and publishing thier work. The amount of writing required for philosophy would make me sick.

Quite right!

I'm actually into my third year of my PhD and the expectations are not what most people expect. You are expected to lead and run your own research and lecture, to grade work, to go to conferences to attend and present, to publish research in leading journals, and to be updated with the literature in the field. Oh and did I mention that your writing has to literally be on the level that it's good enough to get published.

That this guy thinks he can somehow go and teach philosophy while doing fuck all is quite astounding.

Getting a career in academia takes years and building it takes a life time. A PhD consumes every waking moment of your day and even then you still need to somehow find time to do all the other things I mentioned.

I love it though. I truly feel that a PhD is for myself a intellectually transformative experience, especially when I lecture and share that knowledge to others.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Then says work shouldn't be pressure driven and says he wants to be a teacher. Does he think philosophy teacher wander round in house coats, huffing hookahs while having monologues in front of adoring students?

The highlight of my PhD is doing precisely that. Hell I even smoke cigars while drinking whiskey during my lectures to undergrads.

Do a PhD and let yourself become the cool professor baby!

 

[BennyBlanco]

I never understood why people don't want to work. You make money, spend it to take care of bills and family. Then you can either save the rest for vacation or buy something nice for yourself.

I wouldn't have all these cool games to play if I didn't work. I wouldn't have a car to drive to my favorite restaurant and get food there if I didn't work. I'm 33 years old and I just wouldn't be able to do all the things that I want without working.

I mean my job is hard and I work a lot of overtime but taking my kids go to a recreational center and have a great time is something I worked hard to get and to see the joy on my 9 month old sons face is priceless. I couldn't imagine being someone like this person and just not working and not having the opportunity to doing something for myself or others just because I'm fucking lazy.

And on top of that, there is something to be said for having a reason to wake up in the morning and leave the house. I was sick with covid last month and had to sit home for 8 days, and it was honesty getting depressing. Couldn't imagine just permanently living like that. Maybe that is something that's different from person to person.

 

[Rest]

This dude is deeply disturbed. They sound like an absolute psychopath.

"Please only respond to my story of me raping someone with CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM! No negativity towards me, please."

 

[poppabk]

The circumstances of your parents has only a tangential effect on YOUR circumstances in America. This is the American Dream in a nutshell.

Honestly, this idea is about as whacky as the one the thread is about. Tangential effect, give me a break, upward mobility in the US is becoming more and more unlikely.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

And on top of that, there is something to be said for having a reason to wake up in the morning and leave the house. I was sick with covid last month and had to sit home for 8 days, and it was honesty getting depressing. Couldn't imagine just permanently living like that. Maybe that is something that's different from person to person.

I agree, I don't think these people realize how fucked they are when they get older and they don't have a retirement. You can't live off social security anymore with the price of groceries, bills and stuff. Their only thinking short term and that's a big mistake.

 

[Bogeyman]

I only heard (as in, didn't visually see) the interview, but.. I'm not sure whats supposed to be that disastrous?

Sounds like people are ridiculing the guy for being a 30yr part time old dog walker who has no higher professional ambitions. What's wrong with that though? As long as the guy is happy with that, sounds like a perfectly good life choice for me, I don't see why what in itself would warrant any criticism.

And for the record, I work a very stressful job and make a ridiculously excessive salary, so I'm probably at the opposite end of the spectrum, but I don't think that's universally superior to what that guy does. Just really comes down to personality and what you value in life, doesn't it?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I agree, I don't think these people realize how fucked they are when they get older and they don't have a retirement. You can't live off social security anymore with the price of groceries, bills and stuff. Their only thinking short term and that's a big mistake.

But they can.

If lazy asses have super nice parents, they can live at home doing nothing productive and get through life on their parents' backs.

Do it long even and parents eventually die. And the person will likely get all the money and a home for nothing simply due to inheritance.

So for parents who might had worked their way up from being poor immigrants to something decent (job, house etc..), their kids just sit on their ass and grab it.

Regardless of a parents' upbringing, I dont think too many would prefer their kids to be dopey deadbeats their entire lives. I know my parents wouldnt like that. They didnt work their asses off so I could wait it out living in their basement till I get inheritance.

Problem is so many parents succeeded in life so their kids could grow up in a good household, the kids realize it. And unless they got super cold parents kicking them out of the house at 20, they know they can grind it out milking it at home perpetually.

 

[Polelock]

I never understood why people don't want to work. You make money, spend it to take care of bills and family. Then you can either save the rest for vacation or buy something nice for yourself.

I wouldn't have all these cool games to play if I didn't work. I wouldn't have a car to drive to my favorite restaurant and get food there if I didn't work. I'm 33 years old and I just wouldn't be able to do all the things that I want without working.

I mean my job is hard and I work a lot of overtime but taking my kids go to a recreational center and have a great time is something I worked hard to get and to see the joy on my 9 month old sons face is priceless. I couldn't imagine being someone like this person and just not working and not having the opportunity to doing something for myself or others just because I'm fucking lazy.

That is not what a large majority are asking for on that sub. They want change. They want to work, they just do not want to be exploited any longer. While there are a small minority that do not want to work, the brunt of it is people leaving horrible jobs due to bad treatment. In the USA it is quite possible to climb up the financial ladder, the issue is we have more pitfalls to worry about than other countries. We have a terrible healthcare-for-profit system in this country and 80+% of the population is one serious issue away from homelessness. Our country is a facade of what Capitalism should be, I'm all for Capitalism, but not when it is as corrupt and crooked as it is here. The elite play by a different set of rules and are able to change those rules to benefit themselves. There is the crux of the issues.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Quite right!

I'm actually into my third year of my PhD and the expectations are not what most people expect. You are expected to lead and run your own research and lecture, to grade work, to go to conferences to attend and present, to publish research in leading journals, and to be updated with the literature in the field. Oh and did I mention that your writing has to literally be on the level that it's good enough to get published.

That this guy thinks he can somehow go and teach philosophy while doing fuck all is quite astounding.

Getting a career in academia takes years and building it takes a life time. A PhD consumes every waking moment of your day and even then you still need to somehow find time to do all the other things I mentioned.

I love it though. I truly feel that a PhD is for myself a intellectually transformative experience, especially when I lecture and share that knowledge to others.

Going back to you and others who know about philosophy (I don't), I didn't know it was so long to get it. I thought it was your typical 4 year arts degree thing and then go get a job.

So it shows with the dog walker what an idiot he is because it's obvious he has no idea what it takes to earn a philosophy degree even though he's got an interest in it. If he only wants to work shitty jobs putting in PT hours, there is no way he'd put in the time writing and researching philosophy content.

It proves he just wants to coast in life and even something he is interested in (philosophy), he hasnt even dug into what's needed to get it. Lazy to the end. The guy is already 30 years old and for his career aspiration he hasnt even tried going after it yet. Amazing.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Going back to you and others who know about philosophy (I don't), I didn't know it was so long to get it. I thought it was your typical 4 year arts degree thing and then go get a job.

So it shows with the dog walker what an idiot he is because it's obvious he has no idea what it takes to earn a philosophy degree even though he's got an interest in it. If he only wants to work shitty jobs putting in PT hours, there is no way he'd put in the time writing and researching philosophy content.

It proves he just wants to coast in life and even something he is interested in (philosophy), he hasnt even dug into what's needed to get it. Lazy to the end. The guy is already 30 years old and for his career aspiration he hasnt even tried going after it yet. Amazing.

I couldn't agree more. A PhD by the way can be in various subjects. You become a Doctor of Philosophy but that can be in anything ranging from English, to Maths, to Theatre to neuroscience.

The point of a PhD is that you become an expert in your field and you make an original, never been done before, contribution to knowledge in your area. A PhD also happens to be the absolute minimum you need to even be taken seriously in academia, let alone become a lecturer.

There's other job opportunities too, for example working for a think tank or helping decide on policy etc.

But yeah getting back to what you were saying, I agree he had no idea what he was talking about. Besides, his lack of discipline would get him nowhere. A PhD is self led. If your lazy you won't even get past the probation review lol.

 

[jason10mm]

Honestly, this idea is about as whacky as the one the thread is about. Tangential effect, give me a break, upward mobility in the US is becoming more and more unlikely.

Please. Find me ANY OTHER COUNTRY that you can just show up, get to work, and within a single generation be a successful person. Please, try. The American Dream exists and is there for MILLIONS of people.

 

[Meicyn]

Please. Find me ANY OTHER COUNTRY that you can just show up, get to work, and within a single generation be a successful person. Please, try. The American Dream exists and is there for MILLIONS of people.

China.

Jack Ma, went from a nobody in a poor family to founder of Alibaba.

What you describe is not something uniquely American.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

That is not what a large majority are asking for on that sub. They want change. They want to work, they just do not want to be exploited any longer. While there are a small minority that do not want to work, the brunt of it is people leaving horrible jobs due to bad treatment. In the USA it is quite possible to climb up the financial ladder, the issue is we have more pitfalls to worry about than other countries. We have a terrible healthcare-for-profit system in this country and 80+% of the population is one serious issue away from homelessness. Our country is a facade of what Capitalism should be, I'm all for Capitalism, but not when it is as corrupt and crooked as it is here. The elite play by a different set of rules and are able to change those rules to benefit themselves. There is the crux of the issues.

My job offers health insurance that covers my family for a reasonable price. They offer 401 k matching and monthly $200 bonuses for attendance. We all know elites play a different game than everyone else. The thing is, you don't have to play that game. You can have a good job with a good employer and raise a family or live a comfortable life.

It's all in the mindset you have. The reality is you have to work, and work at a hard job to get the things you need. There are jobs out there that aren't the same. A guy working at a Starbucks shouldn't get the same pay as a guy who gets 50 seconds on a assembly line to put a rear suspension in a $100,000 car. Its this generation of millennials who believe that they deserve to get the best pay, top out pay right away and that's not how it works.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

My job offers health insurance that covers my family for a reasonable price. They offer 401 k matching and monthly $200 bonuses for attendance. We all know elites play a different game than everyone else. The thing is, you don't have to play that game. You can have a good job with a good employer and raise a family or live a comfortable life.

It's all in the mindset you have. The reality is you have to work, and work at a hard job to get the things you need. There are jobs out there that aren't the same. A guy working at a Starbucks shouldn't get the same pay as a guy who gets 50 seconds on a assembly line to put a rear suspension in a $100,000 car. Its this generation of millennials who believe that they deserve to get the best pay, top out pay right away and that's not how it works.

People have a skewed view on work and riches.

Although the majority of people live middle class kids of jobs and can get through life fine without being Elon Musk, some people think USA is a country where either you live like Warren Buffet (0.00001%) or doctor (0.1%), and if not you live like a bum making minimum wage (99%+ of people). It's like having a decent job making $60 or $80k is impossible because there is no such career out there.

The typical person asking for top pay and doing zero work skews to milleneals. No doubt as you say. It's not like your typical 40 or 50 years old has this view.

It's an amazing concept because the typical modern day me, me, me attitude is:

- Work as little as possible
- High pay
- Expect high pay even for marginal jobs
- 27 years old and acting like an asshole trying to boss around veteran employees and their own manager
- Have a nice home for dirt cheap, even in popular parts of town everyone wants to live in
- Although everyone knows living farther away from the core is much cheaper, has a phobia living away from the expensive parts of town
- Have a nice car and two trips to Mexico a year for vacation
- Enjoy trendy clothes and the latest iPhone or whatever fad gadget there is that costs decent coin
- Work from home whenever they want (not covid related)
- Complains they cant save any money after every month

Add all this up and it makes zero sense and correlation.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

People have a skewed view on work and riches.

Although the majority of people live middle class kids of jobs and can get through life fine without being Elon Musk, some people think USA is a country where either you live like Warren Buffet (0.00001%) or doctor (0.1%), and if not you live like a bum making minimum wage (99%+ of people). It's like having a decent job making $60 or $80k is impossible because there is no such career out there.

The typical person asking for top pay and doing zero work skews to milleneals. No doubt as you say. It's not like your typical 40 or 50 years old has this view.

It's an amazing concept because the typical modern day me, me, me attitude is:

- Work as little as possible
- High pay
- Expect high pay even for marginal jobs
- 27 years old and acting like an asshole trying to boss around veteran employees and their own manager
- Have a nice home for dirt cheap, even in popular parts of town everyone wants to live in
- Although everyone knows living farther away from the core is much cheaper, has a phobia living away from the expensive parts of town
- Have a nice car and two trips to Mexico a year for vacation
- Enjoy trendy clothes and the latest iPhone or whatever fad gadget there is that costs decent coin
- Work from home whenever they want (not covid related)
- Complains they cant save any money after every month

Add all this up and it makes zero sense and correlation.

Yep my wife was just like this early on in our marriage. She worked part-time at a grocery store and always complained about not having a savings for trips. She would say to me "My mom, dad, and me always went on trips in the summer so why can't we?"

She realized that her mom worked 60 hours a week at Scott's for 30 years and her Dad worked for the county for 40 and thats how they could afford it. She knew if she wanted to go on trips and buy nice things that she had to first, find a job that pays better than $12 an hour and second, it had to be full-time and thats what she did.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yep my wife was just like this early on in our marriage. She worked part-time at a grocery store and always complained about not having a savings for trips. She would say to me "My mom, dad, and me always went on trips in the summer so why can't we?"

She realized that her mom worked 60 hours a week at Scott's for 30 years and her Dad worked for the county for 40 and thats how they could afford it. She knew if she wanted to go on trips and buy nice things that she had to first, find a job that pays better than $12 an hour and second, it had to be full-time and thats what she did.

At least she went on trips.

My parents are ultra cheap immigrants from 60 years ago. Even though later in life they got to a point they made it, we still never went on trips because my parents are cheap and all they like doing is staying home and watching TV. The only trips we'd do werent even real trips as a kid. It was everyone getting in the car and we'd see relatives in a different city where we'd stay at their house for free.

Instead of spending coin on trips, my dad might give us money to buy a board game or a NES game and my siblings and I would play. Theyd never join us as their thoughts on games was a waste of time (although kind of odd to say since all they did after dinner was watch tv too).

At the time, friends would go camping or skiiing and stuff like that, where we'd go nowhere. But looking back, hey it's their money they can do what they want with it. So over time you respect that. Their view on life is forever sacrifice. So even though all of us siblings have money and a house and we dont need it, their view is to die one day and give all of us a ton of money. That legacy immigrant kind of view of keeping money in the family.

And unlike the dog walker dude milking it, our parents are proud of us being productive and buying our own shit. I'm confident that's what parents who saved wanted. Help their kids growing up and if they need money after trying to make it, they got some to help out. The purpose isn't to prosper and just let a son or daughter sit at home for the rest of life not working.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

At least she went on trips.

My parents are ultra cheap immigrants from 60 years ago. Even though later in life they got to a point they made it, we still never went on trips because my parents are cheap and all they like doing is staying home and watching TV. The only trips we'd do werent even real trips as a kid. It was everyone getting in the car and we'd see relatives in a different city where we'd stay at their house for free.

Instead of spending coin on trips, my dad might give us money to buy a board game or a NES game and my siblings and I would play. Theyd never join us as their thoughts on games was a waste of time (although kind of odd to say since all they did after dinner was watch tv too).

At the time, friends would go camping or skiiing and stuff like that, where we'd go nowhere. But looking back, hey it's their money they can do what they want with it. So over time you respect that. Their view on life is forever sacrifice. So even though all of us siblings have money and a house and we dont need it, their view is to die one day and give all of us a ton of money. That legacy immigrant kind of view of keeping money in the family.

And unlike the dog walker dude milking it, our parents are proud of us being productive and buying our own shit. I'm confident that's what parents who saved wanted. Help their kids growing up and if they need money after trying to make it, they got some to help out. The purpose isn't to prosper and just let a son or daughter sit at home for the rest of life not working.

My family didn't have much money either. Raising 5 kids made saving money almost impossible. The only way my brothers and I got games is if my uncle bought them for us. However living a life of paycheck to paycheck made me want to never live that way or raise kids that way.

I've been working factory jobs my whole life and even though the work sucks and the overtime is crushing sometimes it does put good food on the table, gives my family a nice place to live close to work and clothes on their backs.

 

[Meicyn]

You can pretty much tell who grew up poor. Some of the habits you develop while under those conditions carry on for the rest of your life. I still reuse empty grocery items all the time, like pickle jars or those plastic containers that hillshire farms sells their lunchmeat in. I make heavy use of dried beans, rice, and eggs in a lot of meals. I keep bread in the refrigerator so it doesn’t spoil as fast. All leftovers can be transformed into something delicious if you are creative.

My biggest challenge will be trying to pass on frugality if I ever do have kids. They’d grow up in entirely different conditions than the ones I experienced. Mixing some nestle quik with a tiny bit of water to make a budget chocolate paste and spread it between two slices of bunny bread because there‘s no money for the rest of the week is quite the memory. I don’t want them to live like that, but I don’t want them being entitled little shits either. They can wear thrift store clothing like I do.

 

[jason10mm]

China.

Jack Ma, went from a nobody in a poor family to founder of Alibaba.

What you describe is not something uniquely American.

You think anyone non-Chinese can just show up in china and succeed? Might want to check that. Clearly other countries have some upward progress, but none like the USA.

 

[Meicyn]

You think anyone non-Chinese can just show up in china and succeed? Might want to check that. Clearly other countries have some upward progress, but none like the USA.

I like how you moved the goalposts by incorporating immigration after the fact, but fine, I’ll play ball.

Look up Mozzaik, it’s a very successful online food store created by a Syrian refugee in Germany. There are countless other similar rags to riches success stories in Canada, France, the UK, the Benelux, and so forth. Immigrants or otherwise.

I don’t know why you turned this into a weird AMERICA!! thing but, whatever bro.