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[SolidSnakex]

Have you guys ever talked to a Middle Eastern person? They are proud people who are willing to suicide in order to win. So if there is no torturing involving then these people will never talk.

False torture?, I don't think they intend to just torture any Middle Eastern person found over seas. If they are captured enemies, I don't see why we can't force the information out to save our troops life over there.

Because we are suppose to be getting Iraq away from that stuff. That was the reason we went over there, to get rid of Saddam and terrorist so he couldn't torture people anymore. Yet what are we doing? Exactly what we went over there to do. And all it's doing is making more and more of the world absolutely hate us.

 

[darscot]

What ever happened to the right to remain silent? I have no problem with any policy the US inforces against there own. You guys are ok with torture great make it legal. Let the police do it to suspects in the US. Well see damn quick how strongly you guys believe in it when it's not 10000 miles away.

 

[Evolution VIII]

Because we are suppose to be getting Iraq away from that stuff. That was the reason we went over there, to get rid of Saddam and terrorist so he couldn't torture people anymore. Yet what are we doing? Exactly what we went over there to do. And all it's doing is making more and more of the world absolutely hate us.

And how do you propose we do this when so many Middle Easterners keep coming into Iraq to disrupt us from helping Iraq become a democratic nation? The world needs to realize that this problem is not going to go away on its own, no matter how much it tries to turn the other way.

 

[Matlock]

Dear Florida:

Thanks a lot.

Sincerely,
Matlock

 

[SolidSnakex]

What ever happened to the right to remain silent? I have no problem with any policy the US inforces against there own. You guys are ok with torture great make it legal. Let the police do it to suspects in the US. Well see damn quick how strongly you guys believe in it when it's not 10000 miles away.

People will realise pretty quickly that torturing isn't a good thing if that ever started happening.

 

[EviLore]

Have you guys ever talked to a Middle Eastern person? They are proud people who are willing to suicide in order to win. So if there is no torturing involving then these people will never talk

*waves*

 

[cvxfreak]

Nothing surprises me with this administration, sickening,

 

[Evolution VIII]

What ever happened to the right to remain silent? I have no problem with any policy the US inforces against there own. You guys are ok with torture great make it legal. Let the police do it to suspects in the US. Well see damn quick how strongly you guys believe in it when it's not 10000 miles away.

Unfortunately, torture is outlawed by the Constitution. However, terrorists aren't covered by the Constitution.

 

[Drinky Crow]

1. Torture doesn't work. Never has, never will. Ideologues will die in extremis without telling you a thing; foot soldiers will tell you whatever you want to hear to make it stop. Torture only satisfies the torturer.

2. The religious psychos in the Middle East are still a minority.

3. Silly hypoethetical "ticking bomb" scenarios are just that: silly hypothetical scenarios. In those cases, torture wtill won't work: the ideologues will martyr themselves, and the flunkies won't give you good information.

 

[Azih]

A few things.

1. What makes anyone think that torture would *reduce* the number of Coalition forces in Iraq being abducted/killed/mutilated? Because you know since doing this gives legitimacy to the crazy hate of America in Iraq, it increases the chances of this happening as more and more ordinary Iraqis start subscribing to the hate.
Edit: The crazies are a minority and will remain a minority but stuff like this causes the general population to view them with less replusion and more sympathy.

2. An issue with the documents released is that the document dump goes from Jan 2002 - Apr 2003. The Abu Gharib prisoner scandal broke much later than that.

3. The Geneva convention has been effectively destroyed by the United States of America.

 

[Evolution VIII]

1. Torture doesn't work. Never has, never will. Ideologues will die in extremis without telling you a thing; foot soldiers will tell you whatever you want to hear to make it stop. Torture only satisfies the torturer.

I agree, but how do you make a person who knows something talk? All of you are saying torture doesn't work, and I agree, but how do we get information to help us fight an enemy who is can be anyone anywhere in a land that is foreign to you?

2. The religious psychos in the Middle East are still a minority.

Most people who join terrorism groups or become suicide bombers do not belong to any religious group. Many of them are young people who gets a thrill out of doing something extreme, if you can believe that.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I agree, but how do you make a person who knows something talk? All of you are saying torture doesn't work, and I agree, but how do we get information to help us fight an enemy who is can be anyone anywhere in a land that is foreign to you?

Drugs. "Truth" drugs (which make the recipient chatter or change their perception of their situation/captors) have been effective in many situations, especially with ideologues. However, in most cases, there's nothing you can do, and if you've gotten into a "ticking bomb" situation, it's half your fault. The purpose of GOOD intelligence is to avoid such over-the-top situations.

Torture is all about gratifying the baser urges of the torturer: revenge against fear and/or injustice, mob cruelty, or just plain old sadism. There is NO righteous application of torture, despite what your personal revenge fantasies might lead you to believe.

Most people who join terrorism groups or become suicide bombers do not belong to any religious group. Many of them are young people who gets a thrill out of doing something extreme, if you can believe that.

Actually, most of them are successful intellectuals educated outside their own country. Idiots and thrill-seekers don't deliberately craft and execute terrorist sucide acts; "suicide" in their cases are accidental or the result of carelessness. Rather, the "suicide bombers" are ideologues with a rogue sense of altruism -- they have convinced themselves that the world will be a better place if the act they are planning succeeds, and that their life must be forfeit to see it through in the grandest fashion. There's no difference between them and our abortion clinic bombers -- they aren't kamikaze pilots or berserkers casting their life aside in an extreme wartime situation. They're well-educated, capable folks with a very crazy altruistic and paranoid religious streak.

 

[jett]

This is sick.

 

[Evolution VIII]

Drugs. "Truth" drugs (which make the recipient chatter or change their perception of their situation/captors) have been effective in many situations, especially with ideologues. However, in most cases, there's nothing you can do, and if you've gotten into a "ticking bomb" situation, it's half your fault. The purpose of GOOD intelligence is to avoid such over-the-top situations.

Torture is all about gratifying the baser urges of the torturer: revenge against fear and/or injustice, mob cruelty, or just plain old sadism. There is NO righteous application of torture, despite what your personal revenge fantasies might lead you to believe.

I don't think we could use truth drugs either, or else we would have been using those by now. Anything that makes a person talk against their will wouldn't be authorized to be used.

Actually, most of them are successful intellectuals -- idiots and thrill-seekers don't deliberate craft and execute terrorist sucide acts. They are ideologues with a rogue sense of altruism -- they have convinced themselves that the world will be a better place if the act they are planning succeeds, and that their life must be forfeit to see it through in the grandest fashion. There's no difference between them and our abortion clinic bombers -- they aren't kamikaze pilots or berserkers casting their life aside in an extreme wartime situation. They're well-educated, capable folks with a very crazy altruistic and paranoid religious streak.

No, seriously, they are not religious fanatics out to kill the infidels. They are two good books out, the names that escape me at the moment, that looks at this from the view and many of the terrorists and suicide bombers are younger teens and kids who are doing it because they're friends are doing it and don't do it out of conviction. Some of them are very smart, but then again, no one can really be smart if they're willing to blow themselves up.

 

[Xenon]

Putting detainees in "stress positions," such as standing, for up to four hours(toll both workers and Wal Mart cashiers are being tortured!).

Removing prisoners' clothes.(as god intended)

Intimidating detainees with dogs.(who let the dogs out....)

Interrogating prisoners for 20 hours at a time.(The interrogators are there too what about them)

Forcing prisoners to wear hoods during interrogations and transportation.(how many fingers am I holding up....haha just kidding)

Shaving detainees' heads and beards.(keeping it real)

Using "mild, non-injurious physical contact," such as poking.(ohhhh no poking!!!)

Are you fucking kidding me? Is this what all the uproar is about? Now I know there were some who crossed over the line and they should be punished. But to compare the above to what Saddam did by saying shit like "Because we are suppose to be getting Iraq away from that stuff. That was the reason we went over there, to get rid of Saddam and terrorist so he couldn't torture people anymore. Yet what are we doing?" .... nothing that is even close to what Saddam did. You can't poke people? wtf should the interrogators sit there and say "I'm not touching you, not touching you" If doing the above things helps prevent further attacks and saves lives, I say bully for them.

Its was a freaking war.... not a arrest.

 

[MIMIC]

Man, Bush has some balls.

His bravado is going to get his ass ejected come November.

 

[Hitokage]

Ok, let's back up, since many people in this thread seem to be missing the point. So the Geneva Convention torture laws can be waived on terrorists... ok, fine, whatever, BUT...

People who are held without being charged of any crime or put under any sort of review SHOULD NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be considered terrorists.

To simply assume that ANY detainee is a terrorist is both unjust and oppressive.

Are you fucking kidding me? Is this what all the uproar is about? Now I know there were some who crossed over the line and they should be punished. But to compare the above to what Saddam did by saying shit like "Because we are suppose to be getting Iraq away from that stuff. That was the reason we went over there, to get rid of Saddam and terrorist so he couldn't torture people anymore. Yet what are we doing?" .... nothing that is even close to what Saddam did. You can't poke people? wtf should the interrogators sit there and say "I'm not touching you, not touching you" If doing the above things helps prevent further attacks and saves lives, I say bully for them.

FYI, the worst acts of abuse have been withheld from the public, as stated by Rumsfeld.

 

[Evolution VIII]

Ok, let's back up, since many people in this thread seem to be missing the point. So the Geneva Convention torture laws can be waived on terrorists... ok, fine, whatever, BUT...

People who are held without being charged of any crime or put under any sort of review SHOULD NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be considered terrorists.

To simply assume that ANY detainee is a terrorist is both unjust and oppressive.

I would rather do a Type I error than do a type Type II error. And with the times being that they are, you don't know who is a terrorist or who is a civilian. So better to be safe than sorry than to err on the side of caution and let a terrorist go free.

FYI, the worst acts of abuse have been withheld from the public, as stated by Rumsfeld.

While the terrorists freely broadcast their executions on the Internet for all to see.

 

[Hitokage]

I would rather do a Type I error than do a type Type II error. And with the times being that they are, you don't know who is a terrorist or who is a civilian. So better to be safe than sorry than to err on the side of caution and let a terrorist go free.

With times being as they are, you're right. It would be better to just ban you than to possibly risk an idiot roaming free on the forum. Glad you made it clear for me.

 

[Evolution VIII]

With times being as they are, you're right. It would be better to just ban you than to possibly risk an idiot roaming free on the forum. Glad you made it clear for me.

Yes, if it doesn't agree with your point of view then everyone is an idiot. I used to have liberal views but idiots like you are starting to turn me into a conservative.

 

[Hitokage]

Kinda missed my point there, but whatever.. good thing I don't have to worry about such things.

 

[effzee]

so because terrorists, not ur every day iraqi, brutally killed three innocents its ok to wrongfully arrest and torture iraqis?

 

[pestul]

I would rather do a Type I error than do a type Type II error. And with the times being that they are, you don't know who is a terrorist or who is a civilian. So better to be safe than sorry than to err on the side of caution and let a terrorist go free.

You just described the future of your beautiful country right there if you re-elect Bush.

 

[Xenon]

FYI, the worst acts of abuse have been withheld from the public, as stated by Rumsfeld.

Now I know there were some who crossed over the line and they should be punished.

 

[DaMan121]

as for that 70% of prisoners in Abu Ghraib are innocent nonsense the Red Cross is spewing, What they actually said is that up to 90% of everyone in the prison is innocent which is complete bullshit. its not just detainees in there.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040614/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_prisoners

Thats alot of people being released right there...

 

[AniHawk]

Holy. Shit.

 

[Drensch]

Is it me or are those pictures completely inappropriate, and in complete violation of TOS?

If I posted a naked male(especially) or female, there'd be some issue.

 

[GG-Duo]

Is it me or are those pictures completely inappropriate, and in complete violation of TOS?

If I posted a naked male(especially) or female, there'd be some issue.

Yeah... those pictures are really disturbing :-(

 

[kablooey]

You know what I find more shocking than this, is that here at GAF people get more upset about Bush claiming "Right to Waive Torture Laws" than Americans being burned, mutilated and hung like slaughtered sheep.

oh, that's part of the war, it happens. BUT BUSH CLAIMED THE RIGHT TO WAIVE TORTURE LAWS??? HUMANITY IS DOOMED.

or wait, I'll quote an actual response: "There really is no hope for humanity."


Jesus. If torture can somehow stop THAT^ (and I'm not saying it can/will), then go for it. But I guess a lot of you would rather see more beheaded and mutilated American corpses, so long as Bush doesn't torture anyone.

I don't think it's so much that...there's almost unanimous agreement here that what the terrorists did there to the innocent Americans/Korean was horrible. But how constructive is it to dwell on that? Yes, it was disgusting...but what can we do about it at the moment?

In the case of Bush waiving his obligations to the Geneva Convention, mass dissent among the people can actually cause some kind of change, which will hopefully lead to torture not being used in similar situations in the future, and/or to have any current torturing end.