April U.S. Primaries |OT| Vote in 20 Turns for World Leader

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balladofwindfishes said:
meh... might not be able to get out to vote today. Polling place is just out of walking distance, and doesn't seem like I'll be able to get a ride.

-1 Hillary

If Hillary loses my county by one vote, I'll actually find it kind of funny.
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This is why Sanders supporters say Hilldawgs have no enthusiasm lol.
 
Goodstyle said:
This is why Sanders supporters say Hilldawgs have no enthusiasm lol.
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I don't want to play fat man frogger to cross an 8 lane highway. And then walk through a fairly high crime area. :(

I just texted my dad to see if he wants to drive me. He'll probably do it, I just don't like bugging him, but he likes helping me out. This polling place is in a terrible neighborhood, so hopefully it's not crowded.
 
Blader said:
What does that have to do with what I said? The president doesn't get shit done alone. If you want a revolution in how things get done, if you want a more progressive government, you need to extend that support and passion across the board to local, state, and congressional races. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't feel like a lot of the political revolution rhetoric reaches much further beyond Bernie himself, and that's probably not unrelated to the fact that Bernie has done little to nothing to support races that aren't his own.

The long-term strategy is to appoint a SCOTUS justice (or two or three) that would overturn Citizens United when given the chance, and to build a more liberal Congress that can actually pass campaign finance reform laws.

But, again, all of that requires broad down-ticket support. President Sanders can nominate the most liberal person in the country for SCOTUS, it won't mean a damn thing if he doesn't have enough like-minded people in the Senate to confirm or like-minded people across both houses to pass friendly legislation.
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With the current system Congress will never ever be "liberal". Just look at the push back the more progressive candidate is getting not only from the political establishment but from the corporate establishment.

The current system requires Democrats to out fundraise Republicans. If they do, they can't be very liberal.

The strategy is only Scotus? Which candidate would get you the most progressive Supreme justice who will definitely be against citizens United?

Oh but Hillary is more electable? Mid April, Bernie still doing better than her against gop. Polls being too early made sense in January. By mid April, polls are starting to have predictive value.

My long term strategy would actually completely bypass Congress and Scotus, but that's another story.
 
boiled goose said:
Oh but Hillary is more electable? Mid April, Bernie still doing better than her against gop. Polls being too early made sense in January. By mid April, polls are starting to have predictive value.
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Despite Polls, Republicans See Sanders as an Easier Opponent
Hillary Clinton would be a more difficult opponent in the general election, some in the GOP believe.

“Republicans are being nice to Bernie Sanders because we like the thought of running against a socialist. But if he were to win the nomination the knives would come out for Bernie pretty quick,” said Ryan Williams, a former spokesman for 2012 GOP nominee Mitt Romney's campaign. “There's no mystery what the attack on him would be. Bernie Sanders is literally a card carrying socialist who honeymooned in the Soviet Union. There'd be hundreds of millions of dollars in Republican ads showing hammers and sickles and Soviet Union flags in front of Bernie Sanders.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...republicans-see-sanders-as-an-easier-opponent
 
boiled goose said:
With the current system Congress will never ever be "liberal". Just look at the push back the more progressive candidate is getting not only from the political establishment but from the corporate establishment.

The current system requires Democrats to out fundraise Republicans. If they do, they can't be very liberal.

The strategy is only Scotus? Which candidate would get you the most progressive Supreme justice who will definitely be against citizens United?

Oh but Hillary is more electable? Mid April, Bernie still doing better than her against gop. Polls being too early made sense in January. By mid April, polls are starting to have predictive value.

My long term strategy would actually completely bypass Congress and Scotus, but that's another story.
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This post is a bizarre mix of nihilism and irrational optimism. Good luck with your long term strategy which seems to involve a benevolent philosopher king.
 
boiled goose said:
My long term strategy would actually completely bypass Congress and Scotus, but that's another story.
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How do you do this? You can't implement things the Bernie wants without Congress. Or are you suggesting the Bernie should become dictator? Anyways, general elections polls don't matter until after the conventions, Sander has not had been hit hard at all by the media or the Republicans.
 
Drek said:
I personally view "politician" and "two faced sack of shit" as a near perfect synonym.

It is the only logical conclusion, I'm just not willing to exclude Sanders from the group because he claims he's "anti-establishment" despite him being a career politician.
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A fairly accurate generalization, but if you cant look at people's records to make some nuanced distinctions then you are either lazy or not very discerning.

CrazyDude said:
How do you do this? You can't implement things the Bernie wants without Congress. Or are you suggesting the Bernie should become dictator? Anyways, general elections polls don't matter until after the conventions, Sander has not had been hit hard at all by the media or the Republicans.
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Solution would not require Bernie AT ALL. off topic so happy to discuss via PM.

ACTUALLY data shows that by mid April these polls are pretty accurate. You just invented the "after convention" criteria.

Sanders has not been atracked by the media? Hahahaha. Again, in November this made sense. It's mid April. Has Clinton been attacked more over her career and many times unfairly? Yes. Data shows that the more exposure to Bernie people get, the HIGHER his support gets, not the opposite. He does far better with independents than Clinton.
 
boiled goose said:
With the current system Congress will never ever be "liberal". Just look at the push back the more progressive candidate is getting not only from the political establishment but from the corporate establishment.

The current system requires Democrats to out fundraise Republicans. If they do, they can't be very liberal.

The strategy is only Scotus? Which candidate would get you the most progressive Supreme justice who will definitely be against citizens United?

Oh but Hillary is more electable? Mid April, Bernie still doing better than her against gop. Polls being too early made sense in January. By mid April, polls are starting to have predictive value.

My long term strategy would actually completely bypass Congress and Scotus, but that's another story.
Click to expand...
How the hell do you bypass both the House of Congress and the SCOTUS to achieve campaign finance reform when the SCOTUS ruled on Citizen's United and any form of campaign finance reform legislation needs to be pass through Congress?

There is a valid strategy in place and yes, it starts with the SCOTUS. Tilt the bench against Citizen's United, taking the unlimited out of state influence out of the down-ticket elections. Use the same SCOTUS to push districting rules, voter rights, and voter disenfranchisement protection on the states. Then just get to the next census and watch the jerrymandering decline substantially. At that point polarized partisan politics is a far weaker play against more pragmatic, moderate views and lockstep party bill blocking will be a far less viable strategy. Then you don't even need to win back the house as many moderate Republicans are in favor of campaign finance reform themselves. A bi-partisan overhaul to all campaign finance systems is a viable reality as soon as the 2020's. Anything sooner is wishful thinking however.
 
Drek said:
How the hell do you bypass both the House of Congress and the SCOTUS to achieve campaign finance reform when the SCOTUS ruled on Citizen's United and any form of campaign finance reform legislation needs to be pass through Congress?

There is a valid strategy in place and yes, it starts with the SCOTUS. Tilt the bench against Citizen's United, taking the unlimited out of state influence out of the down-ticket elections. Use the same SCOTUS to push districting rules, voter rights, and voter disenfranchisement protection on the states. Then just get to the next census and watch the jerrymandering decline substantially. At that point polarized partisan politics is a far weaker play against more pragmatic, moderate views and lockstep party bill blocking will be a far less viable strategy. Then you don't even need to win back the house as many moderate Republicans are in favor of campaign finance reform themselves. A bi-partisan overhaul to all campaign finance systems is a viable reality as soon as the 2020's. Anything sooner is wishful thinking however.
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Don't disagree that Change will happen sooner or later.
 
Drek said:
How the hell do you bypass both the House of Congress and the SCOTUS to achieve campaign finance reform when the SCOTUS ruled on Citizen's United and any form of campaign finance reform legislation needs to be pass through Congress?

There is a valid strategy in place and yes, it starts with the SCOTUS. Tilt the bench against Citizen's United, taking the unlimited out of state influence out of the down-ticket elections. Use the same SCOTUS to push districting rules, voter rights, and voter disenfranchisement protection on the states. Then just get to the next census and watch the jerrymandering decline substantially. At that point polarized partisan politics is a far weaker play against more pragmatic, moderate views and lockstep party bill blocking will be a far less viable strategy. Then you don't even need to win back the house as many moderate Republicans are in favor of campaign finance reform themselves. A bi-partisan overhaul to all campaign finance systems is a viable reality as soon as the 2020's. Anything sooner is wishful thinking however.
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Constitutional Amendment through Constitutional Convention?
 
boiled goose said:
Don't disagree that Change will happen sooner or later.
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Just come out and say what you think.

It's not off-topic. We are discussing the best way to implement policy, and you have an opinion on that. What is your long term strategy that doesn't require Congress, the SCOTUS, or Bernie?
 
boiled goose said:
A fairly accurate generalization, but if you cant look at people's records to make some nuanced distinctions then you are either lazy or not very discerning.
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I have, very much engaged in the political process. They're all two faced and only vary in the size of the sack. Even Obama is another two faced politician, but his "shit" quotient is by far the lowest of any politician in my life.

And really, there is no other way to be a politician. It is required to find compromise while bickering with each other over the nuance of bills and extracting what they see as wins on the nuance specifically. It is a game entirely built on legalese and fuckery, but it works. I just have very little tolerance for people who think ANY serving politician is above it. Sanders is above it when doing is actual job but surprise surprise, when it comes election time that same two faced streak he accuses everyone else of having crops up mighty quick.
 
Drek said:
If people haven't figured out that Sanders is a two faced sack of shit by now they never will.
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I said "HUH"

drewcarey1ie01.gif
 
NeoXChaos said:
Constitutional Amendment through Constitutional Convention?
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1. How do you get 34 state legislatures to petition for this when you can't win the House of Congress that is a direct reflection of the districts those legislatures are composed of?

2. Do you really want to see the kind of fuckery the current GOP would try to slide into a Constitutional Convention?

I'll take a stab at a hypothetical:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State with respect to the tyrannical Federal bureaucracy, the obligation of all able bodied citizens of recognized ancestry from the beneficent founding fathers and their ilk to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed, questioned, or contested in any context or setting, regardless of personal or public setting. (bolded are potential edits)
 
Im ready for the Sanders salt. Come on networks. Call it in 4 hours.

Drek said:
1. How do you get 34 state legislatures to petition for this when you can't win the House of Congress that is a direct reflection of the districts those legislatures are composed of?

2. Do you really want to see the kind of fuckery the current GOP would try to slide into a Constitutional Convention?

I'll take a stab at a hypothetical:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State with respect to the tyrannical Federal bureaucracy, the obligation of all able bodied citizens of recognized ancestry from the beneficent founding fathers and their ilk to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed, questioned, or contested in any context or setting, regardless of personal or public setting.
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Bingo which is what I think boiled goose was alluding to with his "other" way. I am in agreement with you.
 
Drek said:
I have, very much engaged in the political process. They're all two faced and only vary in the size of the sack. Even Obama is another two faced politician, but his "shit" quotient is by far the lowest of any politician in my life.

And really, there is no other way to be a politician. It is required to find compromise while bickering with each other over the nuance of bills and extracting what they see as wins on the nuance specifically. It is a game entirely built on legalese and fuckery, but it works. I just have very little tolerance for people who think ANY serving politician is above it. Sanders is above it when doing is actual job but surprise surprise, when it comes election time that same two faced streak he accuses everyone else of having crops up mighty quick.
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It's sad that so many people are against the idea of compromises. Politics demands compromises and falsehoods to get things done. It's sad, but the guy willing to do anything to get things done will always have the upper hand, and since we'll never live in a world where everyone is honest, the people with good intentions need to play the game just as hard if not harder than those with bad ones
 
boiled goose said:
My long term strategy would actually completely bypass Congress and Scotus, but that's another story.
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So, nothing then.

Fenderputty said:
Right because he hasn't been blasted by the GOP.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/republicans-are-really-hoping-to-red-bait-bernie.html

“Republicans are being nice to Bernie Sanders because we like the thought of running against a socialist. But if he were to win the nomination the knives would come out for Bernie pretty quick,” said Ryan Williams, a former spokesman for 2012 GOP nominee Mitt Romney's campaign. “There's no mystery what the attack on him would be. Bernie Sanders is literally a card carrying socialist who honeymooned in the Soviet Union. There'd be hundreds of millions of dollars in Republican ads showing hammers and sickles and Soviet Union flags in front of Bernie Sanders.”
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Yep. General election polls for anyone but Hillary and Trump are still meaningless now.
 
boiled goose said:
Oh but Hillary is more electable? Mid April, Bernie still doing better than her against gop. Polls being too early made sense in January. By mid April, polls are starting to have predictive value.
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Right because he hasn't been blasted by the GOP.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/republicans-are-really-hoping-to-red-bait-bernie.html

“Republicans are being nice to Bernie Sanders because we like the thought of running against a socialist. But if he were to win the nomination the knives would come out for Bernie pretty quick,” said Ryan Williams, a former spokesman for 2012 GOP nominee Mitt Romney's campaign. “There's no mystery what the attack on him would be. Bernie Sanders is literally a card carrying socialist who honeymooned in the Soviet Union. There'd be hundreds of millions of dollars in Republican ads showing hammers and sickles and Soviet Union flags in front of Bernie Sanders.”
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boiled goose said:
Sanders has not been atracked by the media? Hahahaha. Again, in November this made sense. It's mid April. Has Clinton been attacked more over her career and many times unfairly? Yes. Data shows that the more exposure to Bernie people get, the HIGHER his support gets, not the opposite. He does far better with independents than Clinton.
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He hasn't been attached by the opposition yet.
 
Drek said:
I have, very much engaged in the political process. They're all two faced and only vary in the size of the sack. Even Obama is another two faced politician, but his "shit" quotient is by far the lowest of any politician in my life.

And really, there is no other way to be a politician. It is required to find compromise while bickering with each other over the nuance of bills and extracting what they see as wins on the nuance specifically. It is a game entirely built on legalese and fuckery, but it works. I just have very little tolerance for people who think ANY serving politician is above it. Sanders is above it when doing is actual job but surprise surprise, when it comes election time that same two faced streak he accuses everyone else of having crops up mighty quick.
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I agree Obama is far from the worst... yet plenty of lying for political gain from him

To say Bernie is worse than obama and freaking Hillary is surprising to say the least.
 
boiled goose said:
Solution would not require Bernie AT ALL. off topic so happy to discuss via PM.

ACTUALLY data shows that by mid April these polls are pretty accurate. You just invented the "after convention" criteria.

Sanders has not been atracked by the media? Hahahaha. Again, in November this made sense. It's mid April. Has Clinton been attacked more over her career and many times unfairly? Yes. Data shows that the more exposure to Bernie people get, the HIGHER his support gets, not the opposite. He does far better with independents than Clinton.
Click to expand...

No discuss it here, it's not off topic.

And yes he has not been attacked unless you think being asked to specify how he will get thing done and accused of not being a Democrat are some hard hitting attacks. Wait until the Communist and Atheist attacks come out in the open. Polls constantly show socialists/communist and being atheist as being the least electable traits in a candidate. Republicans have not started playing sound bites of him saying he is going to raise taxes.

So far his exposure has been his outerlayer of stump speeches and debates, the inner layers have yet to be dug out.
 
boiled goose said:
I agree Obama is far from the worst... yet plenty of lying for political gain from him

To say Bernie is worse than obama and freaking Hillary is surprising to say the least.
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Surprising? Obama is two faced to get shit done. Sanders is an ideologue to the core when he's supposed to work for compromise when in D.C. and becomes two faced when he gets on the campaign trail.

That is literally the very core of why he's two faced. He pushes his purity agenda instead of working to achieve reasonable compromise legislation in the Congress/Senate so he can then get on the campaign trail and talk about how we need to change politics as usual, meanwhile running a political campaign strategy that is entirely politics as usual.
 
Drek said:
Surprising? Obama is two faced to get shit done. Sanders is an ideologue to the core when he's supposed to work for compromise when in D.C. and becomes two faced when he gets on the campaign trail.

That is literally the very core of why he's two faced. He pushes his purity agenda instead of working to achieve reasonable compromise legislation in the Congress/Senate so he can then get on the campaign trail and talk about how we need to change politics as usual, meanwhile running a political campaign strategy that is entirely politics as usual.
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No, don't you see boiled goose has a secret plan to bypass two branches of the government to get things done!
 
titiklabingapat said:
I believe the local party pays for it with some help from the national party, hence why some states choose caucuses - they are cheaper.
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Only caucuses are directly financed by the parties anything else is entirely financed by the States

Another important difference? Cost. Primaries cost a state millions of dollars to administer. One of the reasons Colorado switched from a primary to a caucus system after 2000 was to save the state money. Caucuses are free for the state government, and are financed and administered directly by the parties. If you participate in a caucus, expect to see a plate passed around asking people to donate a few dollars to offset administration and facility rental fees.
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https://psmag.com/to-primary-or-to-caucus-a2c70d37f364#.qykh1migo

So if you pay taxes as an independent in a close primary state you should get your local Republicans/Democrats Party to pay you back for a process you are incapable of taking part of without changing your voter registration.
 
CrazyDude said:
No discuss it here, it's not off topic.

And yes he has not been attacked unless you think being asked to specify how he will get thing done and accused of not being a Democrat are some hard hitting attacks. Wait until the Communist and Atheist attacks come out in the open. Polls constantly show socialists/communist and being atheist as being the least electable traits in a candidate. Republicans have not started playing sound bites of him saying he is going to raise taxes.
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Data shows that by mid april. Start being accurate. Your concerns are valid though, as are Clinton's unfavorables and the polling showing her losing to gop sometimes. Bernie appeal to independents a plus.

The strongest candidate will accumulate the most pledged delegates. Both have won swing states so a wash there.
 
boiled goose said:
Data shows that by mid april. Start being accurate. Your concerns are valid though, as are Clinton's unfavorables and the polling showing her losing to gop sometimes. Bernie appeal to independents a plus.

The strongest candidate will accumulate the most pledged delegates. Both have won swing states so a wash there.
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You can't honestly believe his favorables won't drop when independents find out how much their tax burden will be increased.
 
boiled goose said:
Data shows that by mid april. Start being accurate. Your concerns are valid though, as are Clinton's unfavorables and the polling showing her losing to gop sometimes. Bernie appeal to independents a plus.

The strongest candidate will accumulate the most pledged delegates. Both have won swing states so a wash there.
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Bernie is a relative national unknown when compared to how many years of Clinton being the brunt of GOP attacks. He'll get curb stomped.

metalslimer said:
You can't honestly believe his favorable a won't drop when independents find out how much their tax burned will be increased.
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Those ads will come with burning flying hammer and sickles in the background with Putin's face laughing manically.
 
metalslimer said:
You can't honestly believe his favorable a won't drop when independents find out how much their tax burned will be increased.
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A fair concern so let's discuss it. Not a rhetorical question but i am curious. What fraction of people would actually see a net increase if you discount what is being spent on health care.

(Single payer and taxes are not a current big concerns of mine so I dont know all the exact numbers)


The socialist attacks don't really worry me. Media already doing that and Obama was called everything and still won.

Data shows mid April polls are somewhat accurate and with time Bernie has become more, not less popular. Show me data otherwise and ill be convinced. Feelings and intuition are meh.
 
It won't matter what is true

It will matter what people will say.

And they will say he's going to raise everyone's taxes and I bet a lot of people believe them.
 
boiled goose said:
A fair concern so let's discuss it. Not a rhetorical question but i am curious. What fraction of people would actually see a net increase if you discount what is being spent on health care.

(Single payer and taxes are not a current big concerns of mine so I dont know all the exact numbers)
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It doesn't matter, since they'll see the number and balk before looking.

Also, pointing to the link I showed before, less than 60% of democrats and less than half of independents would be willing to vote for a "socialist" candidate, regardless of other qualifications. And painting Bernie as a socialist is very, very easy
 
Another large problem is that single payer couldn't possibly implemented in a short enough time frame for people to not have their taxes go up while there was switch over. One of the big problems initially with Obamacare was that it took years to implement and it was much simpler in comparison. You can't just deduct whatever healthcare costs people are currently paying. Also there would years and years of court battles to slog through. There is a reason incremental change is the best course right now after the huge ACA battle.

Essentially it would a long expensive battle that would raise people's taxes without an immediate benefit.
 
boiled goose said:
A fair concern so let's discuss it. Not a rhetorical question but i am curious. What fraction of people would actually see a net increase if you discount what is being spent on health care.
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How can you discuss this when it's unclear if companies will pocket the savings or pass it along. I'm confident my company would refund me their portion of my healthcare. My wife's would pocket that shit in an instant. Or how about Bernie's non existent plan to relocate the hundreds of thousands of people currently employed by said healthcare system? We also have polls about this too

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/4/14/11421744/bernie-sanders-tax-revolution
 
Fenderputty said:
How can you discuss this when it's unclear if companies will pocket the savings or pass it along. I'm confident my company would refund me their portion of my healthcare. My wife's would pocket that shit in an instant. Or how about Bernie's non existent plan to relocate the hundreds of thousands of people currently employed by said healthcare system? We also have polls about this too

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/4/14/11421744/bernie-sanders-tax-revolution
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This is a fair concern. Companies would have to be incentivized to pass along savings just like they are incentivized to cover you now.
Aaronrules380 said:
It doesn't matter, since they'll see the number and balk before looking.

Also, pointing to the link I showed before, less than 60% of democrats and less than half of independents would be willing to vote for a "socialist" candidate, regardless of other qualifications. And painting Bernie as a socialist is very, very easy
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Again obama was painted as a socialist. Bernie will be easy? I thought Hillary and Bernie were almost completely identical!
 
boiled goose said:
A fair concern so let's discuss it. Not a rhetorical question but i am curious. What fraction of people would actually see a net increase if you discount what is being spent on health care.

(Single payer and taxes are not a current big concerns of mine so I dont know all the exact numbers)


The socialist attacks don't really worry me. Media already doing that and Obama was called everything and still won.

Data shows mid April polls are somewhat accurate and with time Bernie has become more, not less popular. Show me data otherwise and ill be convinced. Feelings and intuition are meh.
Click to expand...
The difference between calling Obama a socialist and calling Bernie one is that Bernie calls himself one.
 
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