No see the hypothetical Argentine colons descendants would not be able to vote so it's not fair.
Edit:The Malouines islands belong to the French Republic, fricking British.
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Argentines seek peaceful resolution in Falklands, Brits says its settled.
- Thread starter Ripclawe
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No see the hypothetical Argentine colons descendants would not be able to vote so it's not fair.
Edit:The Malouines islands belong to the French Republic, fricking British.
Its ran internally so the continued use of 'colony' is a bit misleading.
I guess at least Argentina will give all its land back to the native population it displaced when it was created.
Oil doesnt have much to do with it. As a British PM, how would you justify turning over 3000+ people to another country when they do not want to go? Its about as absurd as one can imagine.
Oil doesnt have much to do with it. As a British PM, how would you justify turning over 3000+ people to another country when they do not want to go? Its about as absurd as one can imagine.
The Islands were uninhabited WHEN a garrison from Buinos Aires landed, not UNTIL. There is a big difference here. There were various settlements from Britain and Spain before the Islands were left uninhabited. The garrison then arrived from Buinos Aires, was expelled by the British (who never relinquished their claim of sovereignty and left a plaque expressing this claim many years earlier) who then settled there permanently.
You're having some serious issues with cognitive dissonance; you're saying that you think the Argentine option is a lot less like being a colony and rather more independent (?), but all the imagery they're (i.e. the politicans) using suggests they want it under their control.
Considering the fact that the people of the Falklands are content with the situation it sounds like the Argentine claims are a lot closer to a colonial venture than what the UK is doing.
Malvinas is an UK colony. If Argentina takes it over it wouldn't be a colony, it's a part of their territory as it says in their constitution.
Only reason why Uk has the Malvinas is because they have more army power than Argentina when they sent people out of it in the 1800, and in any time in the history obviously
All the sources I've seen say that the settlement population stayed to continue Vernet's business, the only people expelled were the Argentinian Navy and the British Mercenaries that made up their Navy.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
No no no, you've got it all wrong. Only the bad, Anglo-Saxon imperialists are allowed to be bullies.
You make it sound like the Falkland Islands were inhabited and had a thriving population and the British used their military might to kill off the native population and insert their own or that they are a foreign power asserting their will on a local population. The Falkland Islands were uninhabited!!! The Spanish never colonised it themselves! The people who live there today are ethnic Britons. Is it a "colony"? In the sense that it's an expansion of territory from a remote origin, yes. But it's not a colony in the sense of the way I described above. The only thing the Argentinians had there was a garrison - a military force - not civilians. And it was a British possession well before that garrison anyway. No one is being killed or suppressed in the older sense of the word "colony".
Phoenix
Member
Its all pretty academic. The people on the island consider themselves British citizens and that forms the basis of the UK continuing its hold on the island.
Beyond that, Argentina can't take it by force - though right about now is the best time to do it since the UK doesn't have as competent a carrier group as they did during the Falklands. They need their F-35s in a hurry if they want to keep the islands from force as the Harrier force they have remaining is still a dice roll against the A-4s and Mirages.
Beyond that, Argentina can't take it by force - though right about now is the best time to do it since the UK doesn't have as competent a carrier group as they did during the Falklands. They need their F-35s in a hurry if they want to keep the islands from force as the Harrier force they have remaining is still a dice roll against the A-4s and Mirages.
The Islands were uninhabited WHEN a garrison from Buinos Aires landed, not UNTIL. There is a big difference here. There were various settlements from Britain and Spain before the Islands were left uninhabited. The garrison then arrived from Buinos Aires, was expelled by the British (who never relinquished their claim of sovereignty and left a plaque expressing this claim many years earlier) who then settled there permanently.
Well, that's it then it's british land!
Not to be disrespectful, but if the "autonomy" of a territory consists in leaving a plate on a piece of land ... then I could claim any land as my own and go.
According to the graph, the british let the land for over 100 years uninhabited. The only reason for them to come back was because Argentina building ports and stuff like that.
Votation would be stupid because after so many years, after the argentina people being sent out of the place in the 1800, what would the point be? You think someone from Argentina feels welcomed to living in the Malvinas? Obviously the 99% of people are from british heritage.
btw, I'm sorry for my english. Sometimes I have problems trying to explain exactly what I want to because my english is far from good.
And yes, Malvinas is a colony right now. Or did someone consulted the 2000 people living there about signing a contract with oil companies?
That's kind of what happened. Some people from Argentina were living there for about 10 years when the British took it over.
A garrison. That's exactly what Britain had when they landed in the island in the first place. Then they left, Argentina sent people in 1800 because it was unhabited and THEN Britain took it over, and stayed there until today.
Well, that's it then it's british land!
Not to be disrespectful, but if the "autonomy" of a territory consists in leaving a plate on a piece of land ... then I could claim any land as my own and go.
According to the graph, the british let the land for over 100 years uninhabited. The only reason for them to come back was because Argentina building ports and stuff like that.
Votation would be stupid because after so many years, after the argentina people being sent out of the place in the 1800, what would the point be? You think someone from Argentina feels welcomed to living in the Malvinas? Obviously the 99% of people are from british heritage.
btw, I'm sorry for my english. Sometimes I have problems trying to explain exactly what I want to because my english is far from good.
And yes, Malvinas is a colony right now. Or did someone consulted the 2000 people living there about signing a contract with oil companies?
You do realise that since the inhabitants of the island are British and have been since they inhabited the uninhabited island that if the Argentinians invaded they would in fact be the colonising power right?
edit:
So what's your point? The British sent a garrison and left. The Argentinians sent a garrison and were kicked out. Now British civilians live there.
There's 4 Typhoons there now (agreed with all the other stuff)
It's the same case in both sides in my opinion. It's the same story, just that Britain have been there longer because they have more fire power.
But talking about rights, they both have equally in my opinion: nothing real. The only thing Argentina has is the geographic logic. And Argentina won't invade the island, I'm pretty sure of that.
But once again, I would prefer las Malvinas to be an independent country.
I believe the island has Eurofighter typhoons stationed there not harriers. It doesn't matter as this is never going to devolve into an actual fight.
I agree it all seems a mute point if the locals want to stay British. I can't for the life of me understand what Arigentina would expect to discuss at talks.
But the why makes no sense. The people who live there are British citizens wish to remain that way. To them Argentina is the foreign country... Their rights are the only ones that matter.
Britain hasn't been there longer because of any firepower. They didn't kick anyone out except the Argentinian army in 82. The British were the first people who actually wanted to stay there.
It's been said before but Christina brings up the Falklands whenever she wants to gather the gullible and idiotic members of her country around her to make her look popular. Add the historical tendency for South American countries to constantly claim lands as their own (they've pretty much all gone to war with one another over small pieces of land) and you get this nonsense. It's not all Argentines though, plenty of Argentines are livid that Christina is putting so much focus on this issue and making the country look foolish.
Well, the people are british because they ARE british. If the people were from Argentine ancestry then it would make sense to do a voting. But they aren't because they were sent out by the british.
If 2000 argentines moved to there then they would vote for argentina, just like the 2000 british would vote for UK. It is plain stupid to make it an voting issue.
And what rights are those? Because in Argentina constitution Malvinas are part of their country. This isn't like black and white sides.
The best way out would be to give half island to each side, or to make it an independent country and not a colony like it is the actuality.
You're very wrong. Look at the timeline posted in this pages. They kicked Argentina people in the 1800 out when they arrived after 100 years of letting the island without habitants.
Phoenix
Member
Definitely don't disagree. I'm looking at another Falkland type invasion in which those 4 will score kills but will eventually be overwhelmed by numbers from Argentina. At that point it will be like the original engagement where the Brits will have to send a carrier force and they'll be using the Harriers to protect the landings. EFs are supposed have a good kill ratio though. It may be enough to change their nerve in our hypothetical scenario.
This post is the most hilarious thing I've read all day. Talk about cognitive dissonance and illogic and circular non reasoning on display. This post has it all.
Btw, I'm introducing a bill through my congressman that cuba and jamaica belong to the US. We just need to put it in our constitution, and then we'll have the right to move a ton of our citizens there and "split" the islands! Besides, if we move enough people there and take their land and then outvote them, why would they have reason to complain????
lolololol
Why is she bringing up? I don't know much about Argentine politics but there isn't an election coming up (she just won in October) and she's very popular. What's the point?
But the people living there were born there.They are Falklanders.
That's pretty much what Britain did.
And their fathers were from UK...
You are the gift that keeps on giving
StealthGoblin
Banned
I think we should stop feeding the troll guys.
Sadly he's not a troll. The incoherent mess that is his though process is pretty typical of the SA attitude generally towards this issue. Soooo much cognitive dissonance and anti logic.
Their great great grandfathers you mean.
She isn't as popular as she makes herself out to be. The only reason she appears to be in better shape than a few years ago is her pandering to the poor and uneducated during the last elections, promising them things she could only half deliver. She dumped a bunch of money the government doesn't really have into improving the country and people are starting to realize she's still all talk. The falklands/malvinas things keeps her numbers up and avoids the very real threat of the country turning on her like they have with many presidents in the past.
At first I was genuinely trying to inform you, but now you're just pissing me off.
Many of the Islanders are 10th generation migrants. They are not British. By your logic most South Americans are still Spanish/Portugese/French and therefore belong to those countries. Australians are British and belong to Britain. Americans are (for the vast majority) Europeans and therefore North America should be divided amongst the European powers.
Everyone who was on the island when the British came was allowed (encouraged) to stay. It was the US Navy that kicked people off before the British came.
1)uuuhhhhh what? So you are saying that just because it's part of their constitution they have a right to it? That makes no sense.
2) can you provide evidence that Argentinian civilians (not even Spanish civilians) ever lived there? Literally, everything I can find says "garrison". Is there anyone in Argentina today who can make a specific property claim to anything in the Falklands?
edit:
wait, wait. So what about the Argentinians? Are their "fathers" from Argentina?!
It wouldn't make any more sense if they were of Argentinian descent following your logic, as Argentinians are majority European and not natives, it's no different then the British having stayed there in the first place.
As I posted previously Argentina had 40 people of mixed descent living on the Falklands and they were just workers for a French/German named Vernet, there was no large population of Argentinians being established there, and those that wanted to stay when the British flag was raised were allowed according to sources from the time.
The most peaceful solution is to leave the islands alone. If they were to become independent they would still need protection from another country such as Britain because Argentina can't be trusted to leave them alone following all of this.
I read that she wants a constitutional amendment that would allow her to seek a third term. From a purely selfish POV I hope this doesn't happen and that a more agreeable president is elected. I genuinely find the landscape of Argentine politics fascinating and how it has (or hasn't) changed since the Junta. Interesting times ahead, for sure.
Phoenix
Member
Add a few more greats in there
The logic is still flawed anyways. It really doesn't matter if someone's father is from another country. My descent is African and Native American, but I'm an American just like the people there are Falklanders. They consider themselves part of British rule so that's how their citizenry is determined.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
There's a 1500 man garrison already there, Typhoon squadrons can land at mount pleasant in less than 24 hours from the UK via routing through the ascension isles/ mid air refueling.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Now now, don't bring the Acsension Isles into this, elsk will have us tossing a coin between Brazil and Liberia to see who gets to claim them!
Phoenix
Member
While I always hate to debate hypothetical scenarios, I'll just say that I make no assumption that after the engagement begins that those airfields will remain available for operations - same as happened during the first engagement. The Falklands are extremely close to the air bases and the fleet of the Argentinian military. They could invade and move forces relatively quickly to the island as its only 300miles off shore - less than 12-14 hours away for their entire fleet. And they can easily bomb and disable the airfields from that distance.
So if they came in force I don't see the forces there really holding the airfield. But it would be a phyrrhic victory as they would not be able to hold the land indefinitely as they are not a match for the UK navy when it arrives on the scene. But to assume that they could hold the island via airpower alone is reaching. They can deter with what they've got, but if anyone gets serious they'll lose it and have to take it back.
the 4 typhoons + dauntless would take care of the islands.
there isn't a scenario in the forseeable future where argentina could invade the falklands
That's not really accurate at all, when Argentina tried to claim the islands Britain complained diplomatically by stating that the islands belonged to them. The only reason they eventually went in and took the islands by force was because Argentina wouldn't listen to diplomacy.
Phoenix
Member
I have a hard time imagining even something as recent as the Dauntless taking on all of the air force and navy of Argentina by itself. You guys have no respect for the capabilities of the Argentinian military or their equipment. They have a lot of very capable folks and their equipment is dated but it doesn't suck.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
Their airframes are old pieces of shit from the 50's, accurate high altitude bombing is a nonstarter. They'd have to go in low which puts them at risk of Rapier batteries should the typhoons already there be miraculously knocked out.
The garrison there is a proper force made up of regulars that have served, or are about to serve in afghanistan. The falklands are prime training/wargames ground so it's not as if they're all fat bloaters waiting for a sneak attack. They're better trained and more experienced than anything the argentines have.
Capturing or knocking out a base of that size in less than a day is....wishful thinking to put it mildly.
I suppose the brits could all be laid low by a dodgy penguin curry beforehand, it could happen!
Alpha-Bromega
Member
i'm astonished by the logic of "if the people living there weren't British it wouldn't be British, ergo"
it's amazing
it's amazing
If we just move 400 million UK people to the US we can beat them in a vote to hand the US back to her majesty!!
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Sounds like we finally have a use for those trackie-clad baby factories!
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
No, you couldn't, the most you get for being a British National is you would not need a visitors visa in advance in order to visit, however upon arrival you would need to show you have enough funds for your stay, pre-arranged accomodation and a return ticket to gain entry on a visitors permit (Which is valid for 4 weeks).
In order to emigrate there you would need a job arranged in advance, and would need to then apply for a work permit, pretty much the same as immigration anywhere. It's based on a points system, where both wealth and prospects are measured for your suitability as a prospective resident.
It's part of the whole self-determination thing, they have their own government etc.
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