As Republicans Concede, F.C.C. Is Expected to Enforce Net Neutrality

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Man, my Dad worked for Bell Labs in the 60's 70's and 80's (basically AT&T research arm and skunk works). Since they were a regulated monopoly they could only take a certain percentage of revenue as profit, they just dumped the rest into Bell Labs and research. These guys invented the Transistor, fiber optics, cell phones, modems (my Dad worked on this, it was called the DataPhone) and they came up with The Big Bang Theory among other things. It was a pretty amazing experiment

They didn't come up with the Big Bang Theory... that was a Catholic Priest, Georges Lemaitre. They were the first to accidentally see the Cosmic Microwave Background (evidence for the Big Bang Theory) when their antenna picked up noise that they didn't understand the origin of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

But otherwise, yes, Bell Labs was an amazing tech originator. It's a shame labs like this don't exist anymore, but this is somewhat an argument for more government funding in basic research.
 
Because legislation should be democratically enacted, and all legislative powers have been vested in Congress, not the president's appointees.

Legislation Democratically enacted is how things are done in California. The population votes on each law. Not a bunch of gerrymandering politicians coming up with their own laws as repayment to their corporate campaign backers.

What Washington does is not democratic law making.
 
Federal courts have remarkably little law-making authority. They aren't common-law courts, so must defer to existing Congressional enactments or (in state-law cases) state law. And courts in general don't legislate through interpretation. There are only so many ways to interpret a provision, and when courts act dutifully, they aren't going to stray from those, regardless of their personal views or biases. Moreover, courts don't reach out and decide to change the law on a whim--there must be an actual case or controversy brought before the courts by outside parties before the courts will opine on an issue.

Even setting all of those differences aside, one very important difference remains: the judicial power is assigned to undemocratic courts in our democratic Constitution. Much as I dread the use of the phrase, "we the people" gave the courts that power. You'll search in vain for our grant to executive agencies of the legislative or judicial powers, though they now exercise both concurrently with Congress and the courts.

Executive agencies should not have the discretion to either call a spade a spade, or not. Congress shouldn't be giving them sufficient leeway to make that determination, especially when the consequences of whether the tool is a spade or not are as significant as they are in this case. At the very least, when the change in classification is as significant as it is here, reclassification should be a legislative task, not an executive task, and Congress should be making the call.
The legislative branch created the FCC, and gave it the authority to classify ISPs as Title 1 or 2. The judiciary branch agrees the the FCC is given this authority.

Anyway, your argument is stupid. ISPs used to be common carriers under Title 2 before 2002. The FCC reclassified them under Title 1 in 2002. If the FCC lacks the authority to classify ISPs as Title 2 now, then they also lacked the same authority in 2002. If you are arguing that the FCC can't make ISPs Title 2, then you are also arguing that they couldn't have reclassified ISPs from Title 2 in the first place. With both reclassification nullified, ISPs are still Title 2.

http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/News_Releases/2002/nrcb0201.html
 
I don't want a cable company dictating which sites get more speed and such, but I still do not like the idea of government needing to step in to "manage" things.

Do you generally like how the internet worked up until 2013? You know, you buy a pipe line from a company and that is where your relationship with them ended?

Yes?

Then stop whining.

At the very least, when the change in classification is as significant as it is here,

There is no significance here. The government is saying that if an ISP is going to call itself an ISP then it needs to provide ISP services, not "peer into your browsing habits and force you to pay extra for services you already pay for or else they arbitrarily block you from that service".
 
No actually it was Pinko Commie High, located on the border between Vietnam and Laos, but it was completely funded by welfare queens.

Did you also have to get gay married all while giving an abortion to your gf while praising atheism which is totally a religion?
 
No actually it was Pinko Commie High, located on the border between Vietnam and Laos, but it was completely funded by welfare queens.

What's funny is that what the private sector wants to do with data traffic is exactly what the Chinese government currently does. Break into your privacy, find out what you're doing, and decide whether or not you're allowed to view the content.

Bunch of crypto commies.
 
Legislation Democratically enacted is how things are done in California. The population votes on each law. Not a bunch of gerrymandering politicians coming up with their own laws as repayment to their corporate campaign backers.

What Washington does is not democratic law making.

I had a funny post the last time this came up that was a riff on a Stepbrothers joke. But then it turned out that the dude wasn't saying what I thought he was saying. But it turns out you are, but I can't in good conscience recycle the joke.

Anywho, you don't have a monopoly on the use of the term "democracy."

The legislative branch created the FCC, and gave it the authority to classify ISPs as Title 1 or 2. The judiciary branch agrees the the FCC is given this authority.

Anyway, your argument is stupid. ISPs used to be common carriers under Title 2 before 2002. The FCC reclassified them under Title 1 in 2002. If the FCC lacks the authority to classify ISPs as Title 2 now, then they also lacked the same authority in 2002. If you are arguing that the FCC can't make ISPs Title 2, then you are also arguing that they couldn't have reclassified ISPs from Title 2 in the first place. With both reclassification nullified, ISPs are still Title 2.

http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/News_Releases/2002/nrcb0201.html

OK. That doesn't change my argument.

What legislation?

Here it is.

(I'm sure you couldn't have meant, "What bill that was passed by the House and Senate and signed by the president?" I mean, I hope you didn't mean that.)
 
I had a funny post the last time this came up that was a riff on a Stepbrothers joke. But then it turned out that the dude wasn't saying what I thought he was saying. But it turns out you are, but I can't in good conscience recycle the joke.

Anywho, you don't have a monopoly on the use of the term "democracy."



OK. That doesn't change my argument.

This should.

http://transition.fcc.gov/Reports/1934new.pdf

Communications Act of 1934, Chapter 5 of Title 47 of the United States Code, 47 U.S.C. § 151. Passed by congress and signed into law by the president.

. In making
such amendments, the Commission shall add, delete, or reclassify services in
the Schedule
to reflect additions, deletions, or changes in the nature of its
services as a consequence of Commission rulemaking proceedings or changes
in law

Does congress lack the authority to give the FCC the right to reclassify services?
 
Do you generally like how the internet worked up until 2013? You know, you buy a pipe line from a company and that is where your relationship with them ended?

Yes?

Then stop whining.

Seriously, the cognitive dissonance is astounding. The government has to step in to make sure ISPs cannot do that. Corporations, especially monopolistic ones, are not going to change their practices to the benefit of the people of their own accord if it means hurting their bottom line. These companies are beginning to vastly overstep their bounds as providers of internet bandwidth. There's only one entity that has the power to correct this and that's the government. Anyone in their right mind should understand how this is a necessary thing and to their benefit, but the right-wing brain dead "Guvment BAD" talking points have proven to be all too effective.

For christ fucking sakes that's what government is for..
 
Thats rich coming from what you have been doing in this thread.

I think the number of folks who think the US is a democracy so far outweighs the number of folks who would normally classify unelected bureaucrats enacting regulations as democracy that the difference would be one in kind. So, probably not that rich.

This should.

http://transition.fcc.gov/Reports/1934new.pdf

Communications Act of 1934, Chapter 5 of Title 47 of the United States Code, 47 U.S.C. § 151. Passed by congress and signed into law by the president.

Does congress lack the authority to give the FCC the right to reclassify services?

Why would that change my argument? My argument is, "Congress should be making these determinations, and it is undemocratic for unelected bureaucrats to do so." It's no response to say, "Oh, but look, Congress says the unelected bureaucrats get to do that." My point is they shouldn't, not that they don't.
 
Federal courts have remarkably little law-making authority. They aren't common-law courts, so must defer to existing Congressional enactments or (in state-law cases) state law. And courts in general don't legislate through interpretation. There are only so many ways to interpret a provision, and when courts act dutifully, they aren't going to stray from those, regardless of their personal views or biases. Moreover, courts don't reach out and decide to change the law on a whim--there must be an actual case or controversy brought before the courts by outside parties before the courts will opine on an issue.

Even setting all of those differences aside, one very important difference remains: the judicial power is assigned to undemocratic courts in our democratic Constitution. Much as I dread the use of the phrase, "we the people" gave the courts that power. You'll search in vain for our grant to executive agencies of the legislative or judicial powers, though they now exercise both concurrently with Congress and the courts.

Executive agencies should not have the discretion to either call a spade a spade, or not. Congress shouldn't be giving them sufficient leeway to make that determination, especially when the consequences of whether the tool is a spade or not are as significant as they are in this case. At the very least, when the change in classification is as significant as it is here, reclassification should be a legislative task, not an executive task, and Congress should be making the call.

Interpretation is legislation. Courts decide what is constitutional or not. I mean, just compare the Lochner era to the Warren Era. The difference is Massive and both had a huge impact on what was possible and feasible for the Congress. They altered, changed or struck down the era's congressional legislation based largely on their own personal beliefs and biases. I mean, you certainly cannot claim that the Lochner Era and the Warren Era have much in common, right?

I think it is just disingenuous to claim that decisions made in those eras or recent decisions such as Citizens United and Obamacare mean that the Supreme Court has very little legislative power. I hope you are not implying that they have even less than the federal agencies, since I think that is just rather absurd.

Again, you admit that Courts have the authority to determine what is constitutional and the legislature to pass laws. Well, the legislature passed a law that gave the FCC power to regulate and re-categorize utilities. For some reason, it seems like you are trying to imply that the executive created it on its own. It wasnt. It was created by legislative action and was 'approved' by the courts.

Are the courts just not acting 'dutifully' in this instance? What does that mean, exactly? Is it your interpretation of the Constitution? If so, are you basically saying that in order for the Supreme Court to function they have to agree with you all the time? And when they don't it is a result of biases and personal believes? If so, that is shockingly arrogant and, well, not good.
 
Is there any source/proof for this "322 pages of regulations" stuff besides right wing crank sites because that's all a google search turns up.

Well, the dude's an FCC commissioner, and that's his Twitter feed I linked you to. (Though, I must admit that there is some dispute how much of that is technically regulations and how much is material of a different nature.)
 
Well, the dude's an FCC commissioner, and that's his Twitter feed I linked you to. (Though, I must admit that there is some dispute how much of that is technically regulations and how much is material of a different nature.)

So what you're saying is there isn't a source.
 
Why would that change my argument? My argument is, "Congress should be making these determinations, and it is undemocratic for unelected bureaucrats to do so." It's no response to say, "Oh, but look, Congress says the unelected bureaucrats get to do that." My point is they shouldn't, not that they don't.
If you're looking for a purely democratic way of doing this then I don't think 435 people elected in highly gerrymandered districts is what you're looking for.

Well, the dude's an FCC commissioner, and that's his Twitter feed I linked you to. (Though, I must admit that there is some dispute how much of that is technically regulations and how much is material of a different nature.)
He's been proven to be a liar. It's the first seven or so pages that are the actual legislation. He's an FCC commissioner, so he should know this, hence he is a liar. When someone has to blatantly lie to you to convince you of something, you know there's something wrong with what he's trying to convince you of.
 
I think the number of folks who think the US is a democracy so far outweighs the number of folks who would normally classify unelected bureaucrats enacting regulations as democracy that the difference would be one in kind. So, probably not that rich.



Why would that change my argument? My argument is, "Congress should be making these determinations, and it is undemocratic for unelected bureaucrats to do so." It's no response to say, "Oh, but look, Congress says the unelected bureaucrats get to do that." My point is they shouldn't, not that they don't.

LOL. So you are saying that congress should create regulations and not create laws that let federal agencies create regulations. Can't wait to hear your take on the FAA and federal aviation regulations. WHY DOES AN UNDEMOCRATIC AGENCY GET TO REGULATE MY FREEDOM SKIES.
 
The implications of Metaphoreus' argument is that the current system of United States Republicanism isn't a democracy, which is fine (the next logical argument would be "so what if it is or isn't democratic? The alternative isn't really feasible."), but, of course, simply acknowledging our ideological differences and moving on wouldn't really make for great discussion, now would it?
 
Interpretation is legislation.

No, it is not. But let's distinguish two sorts of decisions to keep things clear: there are decisions interpreting the Constitution, on the one hand, and decisions interpreting legislation, on the other. In neither event is the Court legislating (well, it shouldn't be legislating)--using a power to make law to impose its policy decisions on the nation. In the former cases, it should be interpreting the Constitution fairly and limiting the power of the federal government (and state governments, as appropriate) accordingly. In the latter, it should be interpreting the statutes enacted by Congress and the president and giving them their proper effect (so long as they are constitutional, natch). The fact that some courts impose their policy views on the nation without Constitutional warrant is a shame, but does not change the nature of the judicial function into a legislative one. The judicial power is the power to interpret existing laws, not create new ones.

Again, you admit that Courts have the authority to determine what is constitutional and the legislature to pass laws. Well, the legislature passed a law that gave the FCC power to regulate and re-categorize utilities. For some reason, it seems like you are trying to imply that the executive created it on its own. It wasnt. It was created by legislative action and was 'approved' by the courts.

You're misreading me. It is immaterial that Congress had a hand in abdicating its legislative function. The problem is that that function was abdicated, not by whom.

If so, are you basically saying that in order for the Supreme Court to function they have to agree with you all the time? And when they don't it is a result of biases and personal believes? If so, that is shockingly arrogant and, well, not good.

It is my interpretation of the Constitution, and (naturally) I think it's right. But this other business I've left in the immediately preceding quote is not my position, but yours. You're the one who thinks judges are legislators, imposing their views and biases on society through their judgments.

I'm asking for an objective source as opposed to taking a guy at his word because of his job even though you also think he shouldn't have that job.

You said yourself that what he said is disputed.

Branduil wanted to see "the legislation." I showed it to him. It makes no difference how many pages are "regulations" and how many are "definitions" or "explanations." He has what he asked for.
 
Why would that change my argument? My argument is, "Congress should be making these determinations, and it is undemocratic for unelected bureaucrats to do so." It's no response to say, "Oh, but look, Congress says the unelected bureaucrats get to do that." My point is they shouldn't, not that they don't.

I wouldn't want Congress making coffee much less making a determination under the influence of the ISPs lobbying efforts.

Have you met the clusterfuck we call "Congress"? You know, the place where legislation routinely goes to die?
 
I wouldn't want Congress making coffee much less making a determination under the influence of the ISPs lobbying efforts.

Have you met the clusterfuck we call "Congress"? You know, the place where legislation routinely goes to die?

If democracy is bad for the law, then we should stop pretending to practice it.
 
Because we are encouraged to hate successful people, that includes corporations. This is our way to finally stick it to ISPs.

Totally disagree. The rich are worshipped in the US and wield massive political power used to enhance their lifestyle often at the expense of the non-elite.
 
I like that from the telecom lobby.

Brian Dietz, a spokesman for the National Cable & Telecommunications Association, said the pro-net-neutrality advocates turned a complex and technical debate over how best to keep the Internet operating most efficiently into a matter of religion. The forces for stronger regulation, he said, became viewed as for the Internet. Those opposed to the regulation were viewed as against the Internet.

The Internet companies, he said, sometimes mislead their customers, and in some cases, are misled on the intricacies of the policy.
Fuck you too, Telecom lobby. Keep fucking that mental gymnastics.
 
I won't get drunk until the vote for net neutrality is approved.
Well I'll be more specific.

Abortion. If a person was raped, and the woman doesn't want the baby based on the rape...its her choice in my opinion.

If a couple decided to have sex and suddenly freaked out because now they're pregnant and didn't take responsibility for the act of sex...im against the woman killing the baby.

Ultimately, all the issues come down to the actual event. Everyone has a right to own a gun, but there should definitely be regulations that keep those weapons safe. No different than if I want to go get my CHL, I have to go through specific training...they don't just hand them out.

:)
So you can talk with sense.
 
Branduil wanted to see "the legislation." I showed it to him. It makes no difference how many pages are "regulations" and how many are "definitions" or "explanations." He has what he asked for.

You showed me a tweet of a guy holding a book of something. It could be his 320-page My Little Pony fanfic opus for all we know.
 
No, it is not. But let's distinguish two sorts of decisions to keep things clear: there are decisions interpreting the Constitution, on the one hand, and decisions interpreting legislation, on the other. In neither event is the Court legislating (well, it shouldn't be legislating)--using a power to make law to impose its policy decisions on the nation. In the former cases, it should be interpreting the Constitution fairly and limiting the power of the federal government (and state governments, as appropriate) accordingly. In the latter, it should be interpreting the statutes enacted by Congress and the president and giving them their proper effect (so long as they are constitutional, natch). The fact that some courts impose their policy views on the nation without Constitutional warrant is a shame, but does not change the nature of the judicial function into a legislative one. The judicial power is the power to interpret existing laws, not create new ones.

In 'theory'. In practice, people are involved, which is how you end up with justices making a huge impact on legislation by making changes, alterations or striking it down based largely on their own political views, beliefs and biases. This isn't me being cynical. This is born out by a host of historical evidence. It also is born out by a wealth of recent science on how we think and make decisions. I hate to break it to you, but we are not impartial, logical creatures.



You're misreading me. It is immaterial that Congress had a hand in abdicating its legislative function. The problem is that that function was abdicated, not by whom.

If sovereignty resides in the American people and Congress is the representative of the American people, congress has the authority to delegate its powers with the approval of the people. Only a small minority of the people want to get rid of federal agencies.


It is my interpretation of the Constitution, and (naturally) I think it's right. But this other business I've left in the immediately preceding quote is not my position, but yours. You're the one who thinks judges are legislators, imposing their views and biases on society through their judgments.

Well, they are. Interpretation is legislation and interpretation by humans means that that interpretation is naturally influenced by their own beliefs, biases and prejudices. My decisions and your decisions are also influenced by all of that good stuff. The key difference, I think, is that I am not claiming to be impartial or unbiased or the correct judge of things, which you seem to be claiming.
 
You showed me a tweet of a guy holding a book of something. It could be his 320-page My Little Pony fanfic opus for all we know.

Read the link I added discussing the dispute. The people who challenged him on his 322-page claim acknowledge that that's the thing. They don't dispute that; they only dispute that it's all "regulations."

In 'theory'. In practice, people are involved, which is how you end up with justices making a huge impact on legislation by making changes, alterations or striking it down based largely on their own political views, beliefs and biases. This isn't me being cynical. This is born out by a host of historical evidence. It also is born out by a wealth of recent science on how we think and make decisions. I hate to break it to you, but we are not impartial, logical creatures.

No doubt there is a human element to judging, since the judges are human. But given that their role is not legislative, they should adopt analytical paradigms that minimize the opportunities for their own biases to creep in (e.g., originalism and textualism, which both seek to ascertain what the enactors of a text did, not what the interpreters want them to have done). It's no answer to say that since they are flawed and biased, they should just accept their biases, throw caution to the wind, and assume the legislative power.

If sovereignty resides in the American people and Congress is the representative of the American people, congress has the authority to delegate its powers with the approval of the people. Only a small minority of the people want to get rid of federal agencies.

Your conclusion doesn't follow. If sovereignty resides in the people, and they have vested "all legislative powers [granted in the Constitution]" to Congress (and they have), then it follows no one else has such powers. The "approval of the people" to which you refer must be approval through Constitutional enactment; otherwise it's ignoring the people's will, not enacting it. Even ignoring that point, that a power has been delegated does not imply that it can be delegated again. That is, if I give a power of attorney to Person X, that power doesn't necessarily grant Person X the power to assign the power of attorney to Person Y.

And I'm not even a member of the group that wish to get rid of federal agencies, per se. I just don't think they should exercise the legislative power. I'd be more than happy with them drafting legislation for Congress to consider, however, which presupposes their continued existence.
 

Because apparently, we should be striving for democratic election to bureaucratic posts or something, given that the issue here is that it apparently matters whether an agency action is, or is not, "democratic" (and not, for example, whether or not it adheres to generally accepted norms of public policy-making).
 
The implications of Metaphoreus' argument is that the current system of United States Republicanism isn't a democracy, which is fine (the next logical argument would be "so what if it is or isn't democratic? The alternative isn't really feasible."), but, of course, simply acknowledging our ideological differences and moving on wouldn't really make for great discussion, now would it?

It isn't our "current system." The US has always been a republic. What the FCC is doing isn't democratic, its american.

A democratically elected congress passed the Communications Act of 1934.
A democratically elected president signed the bill into law.
The law created the FCC and gave it the ability to reclassify ISPs.

The FCC is taking the plain meaning of the law and reclassifying the internet, something that is well under its authority.

The "democratic" answer for opponents of the law should be to have the Communications Act amended or repealed and have ISPs codified as Title 1 or remove the FCC's ability to reclassify the internet.

They just tried... and failed.

So now we get this weird argument that the federal law (passed by congress and signed by the president) is undemocratic.
 
Read the link I added discussing the dispute. The people who challenged him on his 322-page claim acknowledge that that's the thing. They don't dispute that; they only dispute that it's all "regulations."

Okay, so it's 322 pages of something or other. How are regulations made in accordance with a pre-existing law legislation?
 
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