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Asian groups file complaint over Harvard admission practices

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ponpo

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http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/5/15/asian-groups-file-complaint-against-harvard.html

An alliance of Asian-American groups on Friday filed a federal complaint against Harvard University, saying that school and other Ivy League institutions are using racial quotas to admit students other than high-scoring Asians.

More than 60 Chinese, Indian, Korean and Pakistani groups came together for the complaint, which was filed with the civil rights offices at the Justice and Education departments. They are calling for an investigation and say these schools should stop using racial quotas or racial balancing in admission.

"We are seeking equal treatment regardless of race," said Chunyan Li, a professor and civil rights activist, who said they'd rather universities use income rather than race in affirmative action policies.

Harvard says its approach to admissions has been found to be "fully compliant with federal law." Officials also say the number of Asian students admitted increased from 17.6 percent to 21 percent over the last decade.

"We will vigorously defend the right of Harvard, and other universities, to continue to seek the educational benefits that come from a class that is diverse on multiple dimensions," said Robert Iuliano, Harvard's general counsel.

Iuliano pointed to the Supreme Court's landmark 1978 decision in Regents of University of California v. Bakke, which upheld affirmative action and specifically cited Harvard's admissions plan as a "legally sound approach" to admissions.

Harvard and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill were sued last year by "Students for Fair Admission," a nonprofit group based in Austin, Texas, made up of recently rejected applicants who argue that affirmative action policies should be banned at colleges across the nation.

The federal suits allege Harvard and UNC rely on race-based affirmative action policies that affect admissions of high-achieving white and Asian-American students. The Harvard lawsuit also contends that the Ivy League university specifically limits the number of Asian-Americans it admits each year.

Yukong Zhao, who organized the groups for Friday's complaint, challenged Harvard to open its admission books to prove that Asians were not purposefully being put at a disadvantage. "We want to help this country move forward," Zhao said.

Other Asian-American groups and officials also released statements supporting affirmative action, including two members of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. "Neither of us believes that any racial or ethnic group should be subjected to quotas," Commissioners Michael Yaki and Karen Narasaki said. "Nor do we believe that test scores alone entitle anyone to admission at Harvard. Students are more than their test scores and grades."

The Associated Press

There was a thread last year about the lawsuits spoken about in the article. Similar situation, minus the lawsuits I guess.
 

dramatis

Member
If admissions were merely based on scores, sure.

But diversity provides an education of a different sort. Sometimes I wish Asian parents aren't so fixated on numbers.
 

guek

Banned
If admissions were merely based on scores, sure.

But diversity provides an education of a different sort. Sometimes I wish Asian parents aren't so fixated on numbers.

That's all well and good but it imposes a racially derived disadvantage these kids can't do anything about. It has nothing to do with Asian parents fixating on "numbers."
 
Harvard and the other Ivies are on a position to be able to not even use federal funding for financial aid purposes. Dem endowments. Although I guess tax exempt status is an issue.

It'll be interesting to see Harvard's response. It has to be difficult to select in their situation given everyone applying pretty much has top credentials and Harvard has only so many seats.

They may have a point on racial issues, but I don't get the point in criticizing other parts of the admissions process such as grades and test scores. Schools are free to use whatever criteria they want.
 

Lamel

Banned
Affirmative action isn't what's hurting Asians; legacies, sports, nepotism probably add more students that take up the spots for Asians.

I can't help but feel that these are bitter students who earned high scores and feel entitled to be accepted. But here's the truth, Harvard rejects thousands of people with incredibly high scores, because they can afford to do so. There is no shortage of high scoring applicants, but so many students think they are special when they get a 2300 SAT and a 4.0 GPA - you're not, at least not at the Ivies. These top schools look for more than just numbers.

Also, it isn't the end of the world if you don't go to Harvard. America is filled with amazing institutions of higher education, there are about a hundred other excellent universities in this country.
 

Slayven

Member
Should we blame the legacies or the kids who buy their way in?

Nah, it's the blacks and the hispanics.

There was a wonderful editorial cartoon for this, wish i could find it.

Pfft found

M49e751598c65f.gif
 
People 'buying' their way into Harvard is the point behind Harvard. Top minds with ideas + pockets with capital to make the ideas happen.

I take it most have seen the movie about Facebook. Facebook doesn't happen if Mark Zuckerberg wasn't friends with that rich kid with millions in capital to invest.

LOL, or it does but some other rich kid helped him get it started.
 

The Adder

Banned
That's all well and good but it imposes a racially derived disadvantage these kids can't do anything about.

You mean like the one being born black in the US provably has over most aspects of one's life?

People 'buying' their way into Harvard is the point behind Harvard. Top minds with ideas + pockets with capital to make the ideas happen.

Drawing from a wide well gets you a wide variety of ideas.
 

Ke0

Member
America really seems to have it out for their black citizens at every turn. Don't do well and you blokes apparently are lazy, do too well and "you only got this far because you're black". That's absolutely mental when you really think about it.
 

guek

Banned
You mean like the one being born black in the US has over most aspects of one's life?

No, not like that at all. Being born black can be a financial or societal disadvantage but those are modifiable. Adhering to admission quotas based on race literally means some people are shit out of luck because of their race and nothing more.

edit: I don't know what Harvard's internal admission policies are, I'm just speaking on affirmative action in general. There's a benefit to be had in having a racially diverse student body but that doesn't mean the other side of the coin should be completely ignored. At least have some sympathy.
 

Slayven

Member
No, not like that at all. Being born black can be a financial or societal disadvantage but those are modifiable. Adhering to admission quotas based on race literally means some people are shit out of luck because of their race and nothing more.

Please tell me how?
 

hipbabboom

Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
Really is a lesson in how flimsy this world is and how much everyone is about theirs. Everyone believes the race starts wherever the started running and believe the race ends when they've crossed the finish line. That sort of thinking isn't going to fix this country.
 

The Adder

Banned
No, not like that at all. Being born black can be a financial or societal disadvantage but those are modifiable.

"Is", not "can be" And overcoming is not "modifying."

Adhering to admission quotas based on race literally means some people are shit out of luck because of their race and nothing more.

Or perhaps they're shit out of luck because a legacy took what would have been their spot.

Or an athlete.

Or a rich kid.

edit: I don't know what Harvard's internal admission policies are, I'm just speaking on affirmative action in general. There's a benefit to be had in having a racially diverse student body but that doesn't mean the other side of the coin should be completely ignored. At least have some sympathy.

20% of the student body isn't "completely ignored."
 
You mean like the one being born black in the US provably has over most aspects of one's life?



Drawing from a wide well gets you a wide variety of ideas.

And drawing from deep pockets gets you results. I'm not rich nor ivy league educated, so I resent it as much as anyone else, but it is what it is.
 

cdyhybrid

Member
Wouldn't it make more sense to just stop admitting rich white legacy applicants unless they actually met admission standards?
 

guek

Banned
Please tell me how?

Perhaps I should say *can be instead of implying it's a simple matter of just doing it. Obviously it's more difficult for some people than others depending on your circumstance. But yes, you can modify your standing in society over time. You can't change whether you're black or asian or white or whatever but you can be born in poverty and still escape it. It is possible.
 

double jump

you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
America really seems to have it out for their black citizens at every turn. Don't do well and you blokes apparently are lazy, do too well and "you only got this far because you're black". That's absolutely mental when you really think about it.

it's really sad when other cultures see a basic truth that a lot of Americans want to ignore.
 

The Adder

Banned
And drawing from deep pockets gets you results. I'm not rich nor ivy league educated, so I resent it as much as anyone else, but it is what it is.

My point is that having a diverse student body is integral to that "top minds with ideas + pockets with capital to make the ideas happen" concept.

Why isn't it 22%? I'm always confused at why sometimes pacific islanders are considered "Asian" and at other times they're not.

Well it's definitely not 22% because some of that 2% consists of Native American. As for the actual intent of your question? No clue.

Perhaps I should say *can be instead of implying it's a simple matter of just doing it. Obviously it's more difficult for some people than others depending on your circumstance. But yes, you can modify your standing in society over time. You can't change whether you're black or asian or white or whatever but you can be born in poverty and still escape it. It is possible.

And it's harder for a black person to do so than it is for a white person at as basic a level as fewer education and employment opportunities for a black kid with equal qualifications to a white kid. You're not modifying anything, you're overcoming it.
 

Salamando

Member
How would using income-based affirmative action help their cause? The average Asian household income is higher than whites, hispanics, and blacks source.
 

The Llama

Member
Also, it isn't the end of the world if you don't go to Harvard. America is filled with amazing institutions of higher education, there are about a hundred other excellent universities in this country.

I used to think this, but after going to a top 20 public school (top 50 overall, I think) for undergrad and an Ivy for grad school, it really isn't the same at all. Those very top schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, etc.) really do offer opportunities that you just don't get elsewhere, especially for employment after. Sure, it's not "the end of the world" if you don't go to Harvard in particular, but the very top schools really do offer a LOT that you just can't get elsewhere. To be clear, even though I went to grad school, not undergrad, at the Ivy league school, I'm talking about the undergrad experiences.

I really don't have anything to do about the issue in the OP though.
 

Ke0

Member
Well it's definitely not 22% because some of that 2% consists of Native American. As for the actual intent of your question? No clue.

I see, but then a new question arises...why would they lump the your First Nation people with Pacific Islanders?
 

guek

Banned
"Is", not "can be" And overcoming is not "modifying."



Or perhaps they're shit out of luck because a legacy took what would have been their spot.

Or an athlete.

Or a rich kid.



20% of the student body isn't "completely ignored."

Why are you so eager to pick a fight? By ignored I don't mean Harvard doesn't admit asians. I'm saying some kids are frustrated because they can't do anything to get into the school they want to no matter how hard they try. Who knows why or why not they didn't get in. I don't, you don't, no one outside of their admission committee knows. What I'm saying is racially derived quotas mean some kids, no matter how hard they work in academics or in extra curricular activities will be passed over because of their race, something they have no control over whatsoever and that hey, maybe that's a bit unfair for them.
 

hipbabboom

Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
Or an athlete.

I've recently have become of the mind that this Athlete-route is one of the most fucked-up routes available :( I'm not sure about Harvard's specific rule but college level athletics is a huge gamble that leaves you a very low probability of turning pro but also gives you a really high probably of uncovered medical cost and leaves little time to actually get an education. The only beneficiaries are the colleges themselves. I wonder how much of the quota those students make.
 

spootime

Member
I used to think this, but after going to a top 20 public school (top 50 overall, I think) for undergrad Ivy for grad school, it really isn't the same at all. Those very top schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, etc.) really do offer opportunities that you just don't get elsewhere, especially for employment after. Sure, it's not "the end of the world" if you don't go to Harvard in particular, but the very top schools really do offer a LOT that you just can't get elsewhere.

I really don't have anything to do about the issue in the OP though.

I have to agree with this as well. I went to a decent state school and my friends who went to Duke generally had companies knocking down their door to hire them. Its a very different culture.

Not to say that I'm complaining about this or anything. They were extremely smart, worked way harder than I did in high school and paid a lot more money than me. They definitely deserve it.
 

guek

Banned
And it's harder for a black person to do so than it is for a white person at as basic a level as fewer education and employment opportunities for a black kid with equal qualifications to a white kid. You're not modifying anything, you're overcoming it.

OK, overcoming, whatever. It doesn't change the meaning of what I'm saying. By modifying I mean changing your circumstance by overcoming disadvantages you're born into.
 

Kieli

Member
Hrmm, well.

Med applicants tend somewhat more well-rounded because of the nature of the beast.

But my school institutes a race-quota such that Asian students (for example) only compete amongst themselves for x out of y spots.

I kind of understand it though. Can't imagine the general population of >50% white people will like their local hospital to have a bunch of Asian doctors.
 
What I'm saying is racially derived quotas mean some kids, no matter how hard they work in academics or in extra curricular activities will be passed over because of their race, something they have no control over whatsoever and that hey, maybe that's a bit unfair for them.


Wouldn't that be the same if they used income?

Some kids, no matter how hard they worked, would be passed over for their parents' income, something they have no control over whatsoever.
 

The Adder

Banned
Why are you so eager to pick a fight?

Do you just want me to nod my head and agree with you?

I don't, you don't, no one outside of their admission committee knows.

And yet they're quick to claim it's quotas and blame it on the blacks and hispanics.

What I'm saying is racially derived quotas mean some kids, no matter how hard they work in academics or in extra curricular activities will be passed over because of their race, something they have no control over whatsoever and that hey, maybe that's a bit unfair for them.

Even assuming that quotas are at lay, these Asian kids are STILL almost twice as likely to get in as a black kid. And 2/3rds as likely as a white kid. That's still much better than odds than a black person has at simply GETTING A JOB vs an equally qualified white person.

TheShortVersion.png


OK, overcoming, whatever. It doesn't change the meaning of what I'm saying. By modifying I mean changing your circumstance by overcoming disadvantages you're born into.

And those disadvantages remain through your entire life. Just because if you work twice as hard as someone without those disadvantages you can have almost as much as them doesn't mean you've changed anything!

Not all black people are born into financial hardship.

All black people in the US ae born into a system that requires them to be BETTER than any given white person in order to be allowed to achieve AS MUCH.

You buy home in a good neighborhood it's $10,000 down, $50,000 total. I buy a house in a good neighborhood it's $30,000 down, $80,000 total. That's IF they even allow me to look at the house, let alone try to purchase it.

You get caught with pot in a state where it's illegal, it's a hefty fine. I get caught with pot in the same state, it's jail time.

Etcetera, etcetera.
 

guek

Banned
I'm sure most Black Americans would argue that financial hardship isn't the only disadvantage they face in America.

Did I make this claim? No, I did not.

Wouldn't that be the same if they used income?

Some kids, no matter how hard they worked, would be passed over for their parents' income, something they have no control over whatsoever.

Absolutely, and that's a damn shame and something we can work to change at a root level. Obviously life isn't fair but this bit of controversy, if legitimate, is something that could be addressed and changed to provide a more equal ground to ignore something like race. Life being unfair in some areas isn't a good excuse for discrimination, which is exactly what being denied admission based on your race would be.

You making an assumption that these schools have hard racially derived quotas. Any actual proof to this claim?

I'm not making assumptions, I've been pretty clear that I'm saying IF racial quotas are in play, it's potentially an issue of racial discrimination. Whether or not that's in play is exactly what the group in the article is trying to uncover.
 

dramatis

Member
That's all well and good but it imposes a racially derived disadvantage these kids can't do anything about. It has nothing to do with Asian parents fixating on "numbers."
It is a fixation on numbers.

An alliance of Asian-American groups on Friday filed a federal complaint against Harvard University, saying that school and other Ivy League institutions are using racial quotas to admit students other than high-scoring Asians.
If you are basing admission practices on scores only, I think the admission would favor overwhelming numbers of Asians. But admissions are not based on scores only, so Asians are not wholly favored on just their scores and grades. What the Asian parents would like are for the admissions to be judged more on scores and grades, because then their children can get in. It's obviously advocating a policy that favors their children over the less privileged. There's a pretense of fairness and equality, but it's based on a numbers-oriented measurement of what 'equal' means.

I'm Chinese American. When I was in elementary/middle/high school it's about getting straight A's and 100s, and if you didn't get those scores you're stupid and not good enough. When I went to college, it's about how little you can spend (still numbers) to get a brand name education, that is you want the name and the prestige of going to an Ivy League and not so much the education itself, and ideally you spend 0 dollars on it. After college I am measured by how many zeroes follow the first nonzero number in my salary. You are measured by how much shit you can buy when you are as young as you can be.

In my experience, yes, it's very much about numbers.
 

The Llama

Member
Asians are very well-off on average, but probably poorer than a white Ivy student.

Pretty sure that per capita, Asian Americans make more than Caucasian Americans, which makes me question whether the second part of that is true. Honestly, I have no idea. It's plausible, sure, but who knows.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Pretty sure that per capita, Asian Americans make more than Caucasian Americans, which makes me question whether the second part of that is true. Honestly, I have no idea. It's plausible, sure, but who knows.

Asians are statistically richer than white people, but that "white people" group includes Curtis from Alabama who doesn't know anybody with a college degree. A very large amount of white people are poor and uneducated, and because of that I would bet that white kids in Ivies are not wholly representative of their race.
 
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