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[EatinOlives]

Not asking if they are, more like if people think it's more valid that they would be depending on the field

I'm saying that in any given field, raw skill is only part of what makes a working professional successful.

You're a drawing a false equivalence by applying school extracurriculars to professional field work. What you need to be doing is applying professional "extracurriculars" to professional fields, and in that case yes, extracurriculars are just as important as raw skill, if not more sometimes.

 

[ponpo]

I said it was? You have to assess potential. Which is hard. Best you can do is look at a person holistically. Race is a part of that.

Dishonest arguing and fear mongering. This should be fun.

This and the "shallow attempt" thing make me think you have some sort of paranoia about discussing this topic. It seems as though you think I have some kind of hidden agenda.

I'm simply asking if the "marks (as essentially the only measure of performance) aren't everything" argument that people are making is applied uniformly to all fields. Does race and personal background have the same impact in business, law, and medical school?

If you want to make the argument that we need more doctors from x minority then that's one thing and that argument can certainly be made, but if the argument is a student body that is more diverse with regards to the races and backgrounds of its students produces better doctors then I'm wondering how.

I'm saying that in any given field, raw skill is only part of what makes a working professional successful.

You're a drawing a false equivalence by applying school extracurriculars to professional field work. What you need to be doing is applying professional "extracurriculars" to professional fields, and in that case yes, extracurriculars are just as important as raw skill, if not more sometimes.

Well I agree, but how does race relate to professional extracurriculars?

 

[MHWilliams]

Does the "marks aren't everything" reasoning work for all fields?

For example, do people care if their medical doctors had a more diverse learning environment than higher MCAT scores or whatever?

Two things going into this. One diversity always benefits, especially in medicine.

Dr. Kaplan offered four reasons why we need more minority doctors. Here she is, paraphrased:

To serve those who need it most: “Underrepresented minorities are more likely to go back and serve in their communities. This means more physicians are treating populations that are traditionally underserved in medicine. Our country has a discouraging history of not being able to make care accessible to minority groups — whether it’s because of lack of insurance, limited physical access (such as not having a clinic nearby, inadequate transportation, limited time), or even racism. It’s important to put physicians into communities who need care.”

To encourage a sense of affinity: “There’s research on how patients respond to physicians with whom they feel some concordance — whether it’s culture, race, language, gender. Conversations are more patient-centered; the patients ask more questions, and more data about what’s actually bothering them can be extracted, leading to better outcomes.”

To offer cultural understanding: “We know that different cultures have different belief systems around health. While it’s not necessarily true that all people from one culture think the same thing, it’s reasonable to assume that, if you as the patient feel affinity with your doctor and you feel safe and you don’t feel judged, there might be more connection.”

To enhance the field of medicine overall: “Imagine you have a room with five people who are exactly the same — conversation is limited. But if you have five people who are entirely different, you’re going to encourage much greater learning. All five will leave the room with a much broader understanding. The population we serve is diverse. In order for all of us to leave our education, our grand rounds, our office, with a broader understanding of how to approach our patients, we need our colleagues to reflect our population.”

Generally, people will still lean towards health care providers that mirror their personal situations. It's called physician-patient concordance. (Yes, it does cause issues in hospitals.) They're still studying the full effects, but this example study posits the issue runs in both directions:

More evidence may become available regarding the mechanisms of this relationship and the effectiveness of intercultural communication skills programs. Until then, the authors suggest that probably the best strategies to improve health care experiences for ethnic minorities are to increase ethnic diversity among physicians and engender trust and comfort between patients and physicians of different races. These are not easy goals to achieve, and will certainly require continued effort and action by policy-makers and educators.

In a study of 3,743 white and 509 African American outpatients visiting 138 physicians in the Midwestern United States, Oliver and colleagues provided additional evidence that patient–provider race discordance is associated with differences in providers’ use of time during clinical encounters. Specifically, they found that the physicians (who were all Caucasian) spent less time with African American patients than with white patients on planning treatment, providing health education, chatting, assessing patients’ health knowledge, and answering questions (Oliver, 2001).

There is evidence that outside the United States as well, ethnic discordance in the patient–physician relationship affects communication and patient reports of care. In a study conducted in the Netherlands, researchers studied the relation of ethnic concordance with patient–provider communication and ratings of care. As with the findings of Cooper and colleagues, the research showed that patient–provider ethnic discordance was associated with less social talk and less positive physician affect, lower patient ratings of mutual understanding, satisfaction with patient–physician communication and self-reported compliance, and higher rates of patient-reported problems with the physician (van Wieringen 2002).

Health Policy Regarding Workforce Diversity. While African Americans, Hispanic Americans, and Native Americans represent more than 25 percent of the U.S. population, they comprise fewer than 9 percent of nurses, 6 percent of physicians, and only 5 percent of dentists. As the U.S. population becomes increasingly ethnically diverse, a variety of efforts are being initiated to create a more ethnically diverse health care workforce that reflects that diversity. The literature on race and language concordance can help to inform these efforts. There already is strong evidence that ethnic minority physicians are more likely to provide care for ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged patients. There is a strong link between race and ethnic concordance (and language concordance) and the quality of patient–physician communication, other health care processes, and some patient outcomes. This link makes it all the more important to increase ethnic diversity among health professionals, enabling ethnic minorities to have improved access to care and better experiences with health care.

Some studies have pointed out these initial issues can be overcome a physician-patient relationship, but it takes time and consistency.

Which is to say, maybe people will want the best doctor, but in most health care situations, we don't know much about our physician or their college standings, so we'll lean more on how close they are to us physically. And in the case of some minorities, removing cultural barriers - like say a Korean physician for a Korean patient - tends to improve the overall experience for both parties.

 

[ponpo]

Two things going into this. One diversity always benefits, especially in medicine.

+Stuff

Thanks.

 

[Kieli]

Ivy leagues hardly have chinks in their armor in this aspect. They have the right to be picky because of the high volume of applicant they get.

tee hee u so funny

 

[GameGuru59]

Lol. Do you really think Asians have it easier than whites in America, and should have resources taken away from them. Try being an Asian in America. Clearly you have no clue what it's like to be a minority in this country, and all the racism there is.

I'm black, so I am a minority.

And way to ignore the "individual pay grades". Yea, try always having to work harder for something all your life, and get less all your life. Just because of the color of your skin, and because "the group you belong to" is supposedly doing well.

There's not really a "supposedly." Asian Americans are doing better than every other race in this country. Good job! I WISH African Americans were doing as well. That's not to say there are other problems that the Asian community faces. But it does mean that (at least in my opinion) we should focus less on Asians from an affirmative action perspective. They should be included for the sake of diversity, yes. But not on account of their test scores alone.

I also take umbridge at the idea that a person with higher test scores "worked harder" than a person with a lower one. For one thing, Asian's and whites' higher median incomes results in a likely higher access to resources that result in higher test scores.

Asians work towards getting higher test scores because the American educational system is supposed to be a meritocracy. Do you know how ridiculous it sounds to penalize the highest achievers just because they are working harder than everyone else? There is an example of this happening before: quotas on Jewish students in the early 20th century. Now they're obviously highly (over)represented in academia, business, medicine, etc. Should we go back to punishing them for achieving highly?

Lol "punishing." You say this as though you have a right to go to Harvard if you get a high enough score. If you get a sky high SAT/ACT and a 4.0+ gpa, there are plenty of colleges that will give you a full ride. And many of those are better than Harvard in terms of their respective programs (I also love how this focus on the ivies and California ivies has diefied them as though they are the end-all be-all in American education). You're not being punished, you just didn't get accepted into Harvard. You'll live. Tim Cook went to Auburn.

I don't disagree with affirmative action to improve the representation of African American and Hispanic minorities in higher education. But when Asians have it harder than the average white person, there's something wrong.

Another question: What about test scores indicates a person "worked harder?"

 

[Infinite]

Does the "marks aren't everything" reasoning work for all fields?

For example, do people care if their medical doctors had a more diverse learning environment than higher MCAT scores or whatever?

Speaking only for myself; when I go to the doctor I never know what they scored on the mcat or what their gpas are. I do know how they treat me as their patient though.

 

[EatinOlives]

Well I agree, but how does race relate to professional extracurriculars?

It's not race so much as it is your background as a whole. Professional fields don't go "wait, you're black? Well certainly you must be a better doctor then!!", but then again neither do colleges.

You're cherrypicking race as part of a holistic process and I'm not entirely sure why. Nice low-hanging fruit I guess?

 

[birthday-suit]

Black people were brought here against their will and had to endure years of unjust treatment.

Inner city schools are shit.

I'm fine with it, because we were forced to be here.

And I don't see any one coming up with alternatives, like a way to get all American schools up to par.

I literally had a class in high school where assignments was to copy things out the newspaper. Just copy verbatim and turn it in.

 

[soundscream]

Black people were brought here against their will and had to endure hundreds of years of unjust treatment.

Inner city schools are shit.

I'm fine with it, because we were forced to be here.

And I don't see any one coming up with alternatives, like a way to get all American schools up to par.

I literally had a class in high school where assignments was to copy things out the newspaper. Just copy verbatim and turn it in.

Fixed