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[dragonelite]

There are plenty of people that go to state schools and earn six figures in their 20s or 30s as engineers, doctors, etc.

Dat engineering, hell you can even be self taught with Computer science internet
is full of resources. All you need is to learn the right skill set companies want to pay for
perhaps be willing to move to make at least a living with programming.

 

[Lamel]

. Apologize for double post.

 

[Lamel]

I can see why Asians feel slighted by this, black graduates have better acceptance rates than then regardless of GPA.

I always thought it was weird how the US boils down talk of race to just white people and black people, and its solutions always involve giving special treatment to black people but not other minorities.

Its tricky looking at medical school numbers.

First, even if the blacks have higher acceptance rates at lower numbers, it doesn't mean they are unqualified or less qualified than others, because more often than not they reach the threshold of "good enough" academic competency to get through medical school. Furthermore, they often have life experiences that are important because they can help them treat their patients better in the future. Blacks are severely under-represented in medicine and need all the help they can get. Even with affirmative action in medical schools, black students comprise maybe 5-10% of the student body on average.

Your first sentence contradicts what you just wrote.

I suppose it would be better to say "race based affirmative action".

 

[Assanova]

Asian students have amazing grades, however, like some have said, they may not interview well. I talked to someone who had hired an Asian kid because they looked amazing on paper, however his communication skills were severely lacking. Not saying every Asian kid with amazing grades is like this, but it might factor in to why some aren't getting in to the schools they want to get in to.

 

[Two Words]

So how exactly is race playing a factor in admission to these schools? Is it "Sorry, we need more black students and less Asians so we're going to pick the black student with comparable or even slightly lower grades and drop you." If so, I understand completely why they'd be upset.

 

[Kieli]

So how exactly is race playing a factor in admission to these schools? Is it "Sorry, we need more black students and less Asians so we're going to pick the black student with comparable or even slightly lower grades and drop you." If so, I understand completely why they'd be upset.

I'm ok with "too little xyz, need more". But I'm not too ok with "let's limit xyz just because they're xyz".

 

[Desi]

It also is trouble if too many people vie for a similar academic class structure. Everyone can't put in applications for the same three majors.

I had the same happen to me when applying to a blue ribbon High School. Should have went for culinary and swapped to STEM after the first semester.

 

[Prologue]

Those asian students weren't going to get in anyway. Its the same attitude with the med school process. Those three african american students get in and a fuss is made. If they weren't there, over 1000 asian students would be competing for those three seats anyway.

 

[WARCOCK]

I'm ok with "too little xyz, need more". But I'm not too ok with "let's limit xyz just because they're xyz".

If ur gonna add more of the too little, you are going to have to cut in the the pile of the already existing xyz, which makes your statement kind of contradictory. Because this is what's happening here, by absolute magnitudes the number of blacks and hispanics in those top colleges are rather small compared to the whites and asians.

 

[freeofgreed]

So how exactly is race playing a factor in admission to these schools? Is it "Sorry, we need more black students and less Asians so we're going to pick the black student with comparable or even slightly lower grades and drop you." If so, I understand completely why they'd be upset.

No one knows exactly how but the method you described is illegal. The method a lot of schools supposedly use is Both student x and y are equally qualified. X is underrepresented and y is over represented so we're going to go with X, which is fine in my book..

 

[OldAsUrSock]

America really seems to have it out for their black citizens at every turn. Don't do well and you blokes apparently are lazy, do too well and "you only got this far because you're black". That's absolutely mental when you really think about it.

It's not that way at all.

 

[Cagey]

So how exactly is race playing a factor in admission to these schools? Is it "Sorry, we need more black students and less Asians so we're going to pick the black student with comparable or even slightly lower grades and drop you." If so, I understand completely why they'd be upset.

Historical enrollment compared to objective quantifiable applicant data demonstrates there are soft quotas for Asian and Indian students. Their percentage of admissions has remained relatively constant despite their disproportionately overqualified students applying. Jews experienced this in the Ivies in the early 20th century.

The UC system would demonstrate what the Ivies would look like if holistic admissions were tossed.

Legacies and athletes, which largely means white sports no one plays, with lower scores are problems. The cartoon posted is useful for revealing how the black or hispanic student with lower scores (the ones with actual lower scores, which obviously doesn't mean everyone) are often blamed first and foremost. That's wrong. Their admission nevertheless contributes to the problem, and ignoring that is folly, but it's far worse to over emphasize their contribution versus the legacies or white ass rich equstrian athletes.

Edit: quotas are illegal, thus my saying soft quotas. De jure race admissions were struck down in Bakke but holistic admissions has allowed an insidious de facto consideration of race which disproportionately hurts Asian and Indian students. But the lack of an explicit policy and being able to cowardly hide behind holistic dog-whistle racist concepts like "well rounded" and "need diversity can't have too many similar students", as these concepts are applied to Asian and Indians, has allowed the system to operate.

 

[Ties]

Once again the only winner at the Oppression Olympics are the powerful people watching quietly

whites have succesfully pit minority groups against each other as evidenced by this thread IA

AA is cute tho IA

 

[Valhelm]

This is probably true, but imo income based AA is still a bad idea, because income levels aren't the only obstacles minorities face and AA is supposed to take this into account


The worst part of this all is defining what an Asian is. When people think the well-off Asian, in my experience they typically think Korean, Chinese, Indian, often-times Pakistani and other part of East Asia and the Sub-Indian Continent. Even in those communities, depending on exactly what area someone's coming from, the average economic and social status can be VASTLY different. Being from the Middle-East counts as being Asian, but you think Muslims don't face any racism in the admissions process

In the United States, Middle-Eastern people are considered white by law. So they don't benefit from affirmative action, but might actually be better-off than Asians because of it.

 

[entremet]

It's strange that as gatekeepers keep getting destroyed, yet why are we clinging to these old institutions.

If you don't get into an Ivy, go to a great state school. Those exist.

It's just crazy how brainwashed we are to think going to an Ivy is automatic success and life on easy mode.

It's not.

 

[Two Words]

I'm ok with "too little xyz, need more". But I'm not too ok with "let's limit xyz just because they're xyz".

College admission is a zero-sum game. Focusing on taking in more of a particular race is going to limit taking other races.

 

[Two Words]

Historical enrollment compared to objective quantifiable applicant data demonstrates there are soft quotas for Asian and Indian students. Their percentage of admissions has remained relatively constant despite their disproportionately overqualified students applying. Jews experienced this in the Ivies in the early 20th century.

The UC system would demonstrate what the Ivies would look like if holistic admissions were tossed.

Legacies and athletes, which largely means white sports no one plays, with lower scores are problems. The cartoon posted is useful for revealing how the black or hispanic student with lower scores (the ones with actual lower scores, which obviously doesn't mean everyone) are often blamed first and foremost. That's wrong. Their admission nevertheless contributes to the problem, and ignoring that is folly, but it's far worse to over emphasize their contribution versus the legacies or white ass rich equstrian athletes.

Edit: quotas are illegal, thus my saying soft quotas. De jure race admissions were struck down in Bakke but holistic admissions has allowed an insidious de facto consideration of race which disproportionately hurts Asian and Indian students. But the lack of an explicit policy and being able to cowardly hide behind holistic dog-whistle racist concepts like "well rounded" and "need diversity can't have too many similar students", as these concepts are applied to Asian and Indians, has allowed the system to operate.

That just sounds like quotas done less explicitly. Just hand waving and half speaking to soften what it actually is.

 

[Valhelm]

Historical enrollment compared to objective quantifiable applicant data demonstrates there are soft quotas for Asian and Indian students. Their percentage of admissions has remained relatively constant despite their disproportionately overqualified students applying. Jews experienced this in the Ivies in the early 20th century.

The UC system would demonstrate what the Ivies would look like if holistic admissions were tossed.

Legacies and athletes, which largely means white sports no one plays, with lower scores are problems. The cartoon posted is useful for revealing how the black or hispanic student with lower scores (the ones with actual lower scores, which obviously doesn't mean everyone) are often blamed first and foremost. That's wrong. Their admission nevertheless contributes to the problem, and ignoring that is folly, but it's far worse to over emphasize their contribution versus the legacies or white ass rich equstrian athletes.

Edit: quotas are illegal, thus my saying soft quotas. De jure race admissions were struck down in Bakke but holistic admissions has allowed an insidious de facto consideration of race which disproportionately hurts Asian and Indian students. But the lack of an explicit policy and being able to cowardly hide behind holistic dog-whistle racist concepts like "well rounded" and "need diversity can't have too many similar students", as these concepts are applied to Asian and Indians, has allowed the system to operate.

Should holistic admissions be tossed, though? I think it's really important that students come from different backgrounds in other ways than just race or ethnicity. The holistic process encourages students to spend their time on more than just academics, and to join clubs, learn an instrument, or participate in community service. Many students would have no incentive to do this otherwise.

 

[Cagey]

That just sounds like quotas done less explicitly. Just hand waving and half speaking to soften what it actually is.

That's either precisely what it is intentionally or precisely what it is in the end result.

Regardless of how dismally you view the situation, the outcome still produces a race based discriminatory suppression of a qualified group of students. Read about how this exact shit happened to Jews decades ago. Primary difference then was overt statements about how too many Jews is problematic for the lily white WASP Ivy Leagues. Today, as I'm sure Asian GAF can attest, it's nonsense like "well rounded" students are superior to the GPA SAT ones who may be robotic. It's not hard to imagine the race of the former (not Asian) and the latter (Asian)

 

[Cagey]

Should holistic admissions be tossed, though? I think it's really important that students come from different backgrounds in other ways than just race or ethnicity. The holistic process encourages students to spend their time on more than just academics, and to join clubs, learn an instrument, or participate in community service. Many students would have no incentive to do this otherwise.

If holistic admissions could be done a way that valued actual differing experiences rather than creating biased towards certain socioeconomic demographics (upper and upper middle class whites) via the paper thin cover of hobbies, sure. There's data suggesting 4H or Jrotc membership is detrimental to applicants. It's not hard to figure out why that's the case compared to yet another violin playing Model UN participant.

Because I take such a pessimistic view of this, I really don't care for the system as run by the people in it.

 

[GameGuru59]

Maybe we should stop using test scores to determine who should be admitted. Its crazy to me that people think they're more intelligent because they passed some fucking test. Tests (especially standardized ones) mean very little in terms of judging creativity and conceptual understanding of a topic. If your objective is to determine who's best at emulating a computer, then you can use standardized tests.

Testing is one of the biggest crocks of bullshit to ever hit education. Right up under private schooling.

 

[HisImperialMajesty]

Those asian students weren't going to get in anyway. Its the same attitude with the med school process. Those three african american students get in and a fuss is made. If they weren't there, over 1000 asian students would be competing for those three seats anyway.

That's crap. No one is blaming the "3 black kids" that got into med school for taking their spots. As an Asian American, I'm looking at the data that shows that Asians have to get higher test scores than WHITES to get into college or med school.

I would understand if Asians have to achieve on a similar basis as whites for the college admissions game. Despite often blatant discrimination against Asians I've experienced in this country, I would agree that we don't suffer many of the challenges that blacks/hispanics do. We're nowhere near as privileged as whites, though - and we ABSOLUTELY should not have to test higher than whites to get the same spot as a white person.

 

[Valhelm]

If holistic admissions could be done a way that valued actual differing experiences rather than creating biased towards certain socioeconomic demographics (upper and upper middle class whites) via the paper thin cover of hobbies, sure. There's data suggesting 4H or Jrotc membership is detrimental to applicants. It's not hard to figure out why that's the case compared to yet another violin playing Model UN participant.

Because I take such a pessimistic view of this, I really don't care for the system as run by the people in it.

I'd argue that violin is the worst possible example to use, given the success of Asian Americans in orchestra programs across the nation. However, it's awful that blue-collar activities can actually hurt applicants. Is what you say about 4H and Jrotc still true when you control for income?

 

[GameGuru59]

Perfect.

 

[Zoned]

It's strange that as gatekeepers keep getting destroyed, yet why are we clinging to these old institutions.

If you don't get into an Ivy, go to a great state school. Those exist.

It's just crazy how brainwashed we are to think going to an Ivy is automatic success and life on easy mode.

It's not.

Oh please. Ivy is just not about education , it's much more than that. The connections that you make at Ivy with industry leaders play a huge role in your career. Your medical, law and MBA degrees marketability depends on how prestigious the institute is. Not to say, the funding that you could potentially receiece in Ivy's is astronomical compared to state schools.

Decisions should be based on student's credentials not what color he belongs to. Also what you just said could be applied oppositely. So the non Asian groups that are getting free pass could also go to state schools.

 

[Cagey]

I'd argue that violin is the worst possible example to use, given the success of Asian Americans in orchestra programs across the nation. However, it's awful that blue-collar activities can actually hurt applicants. Is what you say about 4H and Jrotc still true when you control for income?

I couldn't say regarding the income question. It's been so long since I read up on this subject and the studies conducted (law school years ago, and that statement makes me feel old). Future Farmers participation also correlated with lower chances.

Here's a NYT piece on the Princeton study and then the conservative cries about it. The issue isn't bias against white Christians or some nonsense. It's a bias against lower income people, including whites. Of course conservatives" pundits perverted this real problem for their own BS.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/opinion/19douthat.html?referrer=&_r=0

You're right I should have said clarinet lol. Same concept though.

 

[HisImperialMajesty]

Scores and grades are only part of the value you bring to a university

Yup. Asians don't bring any value to university except scores and grades. They're all robots, clearly.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Jen-Hsun Huang, Taiwanese-American and co-founder of Nvidia.

And yeah, I can't think of many others either.

Charles Wang, CEO of Computer Associates , and owner of the New York Islanders Hockey team.

 

[WARCOCK]

whites have succesfully pit minority groups against each other as evidenced by this thread IA

AA is cute tho IA

Please with this "whites" shit. Very rich whites have pit minorities against each other to their benefit. 75 percent of this country is white and most of them are in the same basket as the rest of us minorities but unfortunately don't realize it.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

That's crap. No one is blaming the "3 black kids" that got into med school for taking their spots. As an Asian American, I'm looking at the data that shows that Asians have to get higher test scores than WHITES to get into college or med school.

I would understand if Asians have to achieve on a similar basis as whites for the college admissions game. Despite often blatant discrimination against Asians I've experienced in this country, I would agree that we don't suffer many of the challenges that blacks/hispanics do. We're nowhere near as privileged as whites, though - and we ABSOLUTELY should not have to test higher than whites to get the same spot as a white person.

Med school admissions should be strictly mcat/gpa/clinical experience imo.

 

[dan2026]

It's not that way at all.

No when black people step out of line the cops just shoot them.

 

[GameGuru59]

Yup. Asians don't bring any value to university except scores and grades. They're all robots, clearly.

No, but when you base your argument for letting more of your group in based solely on their test scores, you're certainly framing the argument in that way.

 

[Stinkles]

It's strange that as gatekeepers keep getting destroyed, yet why are we clinging to these old institutions.

If you don't get into an Ivy, go to a great state school. Those exist.

It's just crazy how brainwashed we are to think going to an Ivy is automatic success and life on easy mode.

It's not.

Statistically it is though. Higher starting salaries, higher net worth, lower unemployment after graduation and companies compete to hire them.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yup. Asians don't bring any value to university except scores and grades. They're all robots, clearly.

Thats certainly the criteria the complaint in the OP seems to be about. Academic achievement defined in the classical way

 

[HisImperialMajesty]

Perfect.

I'm Asian American. I'm not blind to what's going on, and blaming the black/Hispanic students. Affirmative action has marginally helped some minority populations, sure. It's also been used to justify a systemically racist quota system to limit the amount of Asian students at top universities. The people at the top administering the AA system aren't looking to dramatically increase spots for underprivileged students; rather, they want to protect the spots they have for their own privileged children. This happened before during the 1920's, when the Ivy's set up a quota on high achieving Jewish students.

Who has benefited the most from Affirmative Action? White women.
http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/17/affirmative-action-has-helped-white-women-more-than-anyone/

 

[Infinite]

Yup. Asians don't bring any value to university except scores and grades. They're all robots, clearly.

Strawman. He never said that. If the groups filing the complaint against Harvard had their way then test scores and grades would be the only things admissions will be focused on.

 

[Two Words]

Strawman. He never said that. If the groups filing the complaint against Harvard had their way then test scores and grades would be the only things admissions will be focused on.

Okay, we'll deal with that topic when the group actually makes that claim.


Please tell me you can see the irony of crying straw man and then immediately making a straw man argument....

 

[Cagey]

Please with this "whites" shit. Very rich whites have pit minorities against each other to their benefit. 75 percent of this country is white and most of them are in the same basket as the rest of us minorities but unfortunately don't realize it.

Truth. I was a god damn diversity admission to the law school I attended as a straight white male given my socioeconomic background (working class, only family member with college degree, family all laborers or trades or other blue collar jobs). I wasn't competing with minorities for spots, I was competing with similarly qualified wealthy applicants across the racial spectrum (predominantly white) who had a far easier time getting to the same point and having to distinguish from the wealthy whites because on (non financial aid) papers we were the same.

If you want holistic concepts then fuck off with the emphasis on extracurriculars and instrument talents and all of those socioeconomic proxies. Drill down to what matters and contemplate the background of students and the ease or difficulty they had getting there. Class and income matters.

I know full well that my law school admitted well to do African and Afro Caribbean immigrants as part of their diversity aims to increase black enrollment. That's despicable and it's a total undermining of what affirmative action is supposed to achieve.

 

[HisImperialMajesty]

No, but when you base your argument for letting more of your group in based solely on their test scores, you're certainly framing the argument in that way.

Strawman. He never said that. If the groups filing the complaint against Harvard had their way then test scores and grades would be the only things admissions will be focused on.

Tell me then, why do Asians have to get higher test scores than whites for the same spots? Because the average white person contributes more in all other aspects than an Asian person other than test scores? Because the average white person is more "well rounded" than the robotic Asian person? Because the journey of the average white person should be valued more than that of the Asian American?

That's what the college admissions system is telling us. You have to test higher than anyone else for the same spot, because otherwise, you aren't worth as much.

 

[Infinite]

Okay, we'll deal with that topic when the group actually makes that claim.


Please tell me you can see the irony of crying straw man and then immediately making a straw man argument....

Eh? The groups are making that claim.

 

[HisImperialMajesty]

Med school admissions should be strictly mcat/gpa/clinical experience imo.

I disagree. It's important to have a racially and socioeconomically diverse class of doctors to serve America's diverse population.

Nonetheless, you can see how systemic racism is still present in the med school admissions system. Asians once again have to have higher MCAT/GPA than whites for the same spots. That's evidence of the admissions system being cooked so a more privileged group has an easier time being admitted than a less privileged group.

 

[Littlefang]

Tell me then, why do Asians have to get higher test scores than whites for the same spots? Because the average white person contributes more in all other aspects than an Asian person other than test scores? Because the average white person is more "well rounded" than the robotic Asian person? Because the journey of the average white person should be valued more than that of the Asian American?

That's what the college admissions system is telling us. You have to test higher than anyone else for the same spot, because otherwise, you aren't worth as much.

Isn't one of the issues that Asian students will be more likely to apply to more competitive fields such as science or math where the admissions process is certainly way more difficult than getting into say social sciences?

Going back to people complaining about AA, AA means that the applicants of ethnic minorities are more likely to get accepted because of their race. But this does not mean that the applicants of white students or Asian students are more likely to get rejected because of their race. There are many different things that will give an application an edge such as what sports the student plays, what high school they go to, etc.

 

[Mr Nash]

Don't the really big universities like Ivy League ones and Oxford / Cambridge look at other aspects of an applicant's life like volunteer work, non scholastic interests, etc. when considering admittance, and not purely at grades, or is that only super high level stuff like being a Rhodes Scholar?

 

[HisImperialMajesty]

Isn't one of the issues that Asian students will be more likely to apply to more competitive fields such as science or math where the admissions process is certainly way more difficult than getting into say social sciences?

Are you sure that's not just a stereotype?

Even within competitive fields such as science or math, Asians still have to score higher than their white counterparts for the same spots. Take a look at the med school admissions chart a few pages back.

 

[Tallshortman]

Don't the really big universities like Ivy League ones and Oxford / Cambridge look at other aspects of an applicant's life like volunteer work, non scholastic interests, etc. when considering admittance, and not purely at grades, or is that only super high level stuff like being a Rhodes Scholar?

This is true for all colleges not just ivy league schools. Extra curricular activities is a big part of the admission process.

 

[GSG Flash]

More than 60 Chinese, Indian, Korean and Pakistani groups came together for the complaint

Does Harvard bunch all these groups together as "Asian"? Because what I'm seeing there is four racially and culturally distinct groups, so it would indeed be unfair if Harvard(or any other Ivy League/top university) was just grouping them together based on their geographic origins.

I'm guessing some of the people rejected because they were part of an "over-represented group" have more academic merit than say...Tom Cotton in deserving admission.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Don't the really big universities like Ivy League ones and Oxford / Cambridge look at other aspects of an applicant's life like volunteer work, non scholastic interests, etc. when considering admittance, and not purely at grades, or is that only super high level stuff like being a Rhodes Scholar?

oxbridge mostly cares about gpa and test scores/a levels

"Isn't one of the issues that Asian students will be more likely to apply to more competitive fields such as science or math where the admissions process is certainly way more difficult than getting into say social sciences?"

for undergrad admissions you usually don't apply to a major.

 

[Goro Majima]

Statistically it is though. Higher starting salaries, higher net worth, lower unemployment after graduation and companies compete to hire them.

My understanding is that it levels out after 10 or so years in the workforce when it's really about experience and what you've done with your life. Considering the cost of attendance for an undergrad at one of these schools is astronomical, that doesn't particularly bother me too much.

I also believe that if you're a perfect fit for the Ivy League and the sole reason you don't get in is because of quotas, you'll eventually have as much success going to any one of the other top universities in the country.

It's not like if you don't get into Harvard, you're automatically going to some D tier community college.

Even then I think these days it's a bigger deal where you went to get your graduate or post-graduate education but I can't tell if this article is addressing those issues or just undergraduate admissions.

edit: Found an article discussing research that pretty much supports my beliefs:

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/03/01/the-ivy-league-earnings-myth

 

[guek]

Man where were you reasonable and civil folks yesterday

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I disagree. It's important to have a racially and socioeconomically diverse class of doctors to serve America's diverse population.

Nonetheless, you can see how systemic racism is still present in the med school admissions system. Asians once again have to have higher MCAT/GPA than whites for the same spots. That's evidence of the admissions system being cooked so a more privileged group has an easier time being admitted than a less privileged group.

It seems that the least privileged group gets the biggest boost by far according to the table.

"Considering the cost of attendance for an undergrad at one of these schools is astronomical, that doesn't particularly bother me too much."

Harvard, Stanford, and other top top schools charge less or no tuition to families that make less than six figures.