Steve Youngblood
Member
I think he was suggesting that people should be willing to compromise in regards to the people that they truly care about.
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- Thread starter fifasnipe2224
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I think he was suggesting that people should be willing to compromise in regards to the people that they truly care about.
Raonak
Banned
Too tired to read the whole thing. but i'd stand up to my belief that religion should not be forced on a child.
Or if that doesn't work, just let it slide, but as the kid is growing up, show him/her all the inaccuracies that surrounding whatever religion. and do your hardest to show her that her mother's religion isn't the only choice out there.
Or if that doesn't work, just let it slide, but as the kid is growing up, show him/her all the inaccuracies that surrounding whatever religion. and do your hardest to show her that her mother's religion isn't the only choice out there.
Metroid Killer
Member
How immature can you get? you sound like a calculating teenager.
Eventhough I agree with your views and how it should be up to the child to choose their religion. The way you immaturely view arguments as winning/losing, outsmarting etc., makes me think that you are better off without each other. What a way to start your daughter's life :/
My first kid was baptized in an episcopalian church. Wife insisted.
My second kid wasn't baptized at all. By that point, wife didn't care.
It's not worth throwing your kid/gf away over. Religion is a touchy subject, but sometimes the most preachily obnoxious people are atheist, which her family now sees you as. So you have to apologize if you want to get back into their lives, and this might include going to church for a bit. Sorry - you made this bed, time to lie in it for a while.
You have to roll with the punches, and being atheist, you have the upper hand. Patience.
Finally - if you do decide to throw your kid away over this, which as of now you are essentially doing, you're a pretty big asshole. Sorry again.
My second kid wasn't baptized at all. By that point, wife didn't care.
It's not worth throwing your kid/gf away over. Religion is a touchy subject, but sometimes the most preachily obnoxious people are atheist, which her family now sees you as. So you have to apologize if you want to get back into their lives, and this might include going to church for a bit. Sorry - you made this bed, time to lie in it for a while.
You have to roll with the punches, and being atheist, you have the upper hand. Patience.
Finally - if you do decide to throw your kid away over this, which as of now you are essentially doing, you're a pretty big asshole. Sorry again.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
I dont understand why you'd be with someone so different/
Lionel Mandrake
Member
Beer is a helluva drug?
Horseticuffs
Full werewolf off the buckle
No offense, OP, but this is the only advice thread I remember where I came out feeling that someone was well and truly fucked.
Everyone who is important to you is all salty now and even if you came to them full of contrition, pound of flesh at the ready, do you think they'd believe you now ?
Look, man, I'm going through a divorce. I know that being separated from your kids is the worst, most unnatural, thing for a parent. It's Hell.
By all means, lie whatever lie you need to lie to try to fix it. You know there isn't any big judge up in the sky who will punish you for it.
Whatever silly jig they want you to dance, do it if it will help. Yes, they are in the wrong but you have no cards to play, man.
Just be prepared. Your posts make fixing this sound unlikely. Is pretending to believe a fairy tale worth getting to be a good dad?
Good luck, bro.
Everyone who is important to you is all salty now and even if you came to them full of contrition, pound of flesh at the ready, do you think they'd believe you now ?
Look, man, I'm going through a divorce. I know that being separated from your kids is the worst, most unnatural, thing for a parent. It's Hell.
By all means, lie whatever lie you need to lie to try to fix it. You know there isn't any big judge up in the sky who will punish you for it.
Whatever silly jig they want you to dance, do it if it will help. Yes, they are in the wrong but you have no cards to play, man.
Just be prepared. Your posts make fixing this sound unlikely. Is pretending to believe a fairy tale worth getting to be a good dad?
Good luck, bro.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I don't know. Personally, I don't think that not seeing eye to eye on matters of religion doesn't have to be a thing unless the two parties make it one. Of course, I do understand that it can be a divisive issue. Personally, I don't know think it'd work for me if I was with a devout practitioner who insisted that we had to be regular members of a congregation where we went to the service every Sunday and participated in the community events. But someone who believes and thinks that the sacraments are important? That's not a big deal to me.
Devolution
Member
Well the whole point of talking it out is to see how much of a priority it is to the other person, especially before a kid gets in the middle of any sort of religious spat.
wsoxfan1214
Banned
It sounds like your pride just fucked things up pretty well for you.
MULTIPLE times in your post, you mentioned how you NEVER admitted you were wrong, how she had multiple times and even posted a 3-0 "score"?!
What the fuck is wrong with you?
You, in your little pride game you were playing, just lost your house and daughter because you think a little water over the head will magically turn your daughter into a religious person? Did it do it to you? No.
So what's the problem?
You need to get your shit straight and your pride in check. And I sure as hell hope you realize you're as fanatical as the Christian fundamentalists you likely make fun of are. The only difference is you're a fanatical atheist with an ego issue.
MULTIPLE times in your post, you mentioned how you NEVER admitted you were wrong, how she had multiple times and even posted a 3-0 "score"?!
What the fuck is wrong with you?
You, in your little pride game you were playing, just lost your house and daughter because you think a little water over the head will magically turn your daughter into a religious person? Did it do it to you? No.
So what's the problem?
You need to get your shit straight and your pride in check. And I sure as hell hope you realize you're as fanatical as the Christian fundamentalists you likely make fun of are. The only difference is you're a fanatical atheist with an ego issue.
Hopefully they'll learn to forgive.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Oh, I'm not saying you shouldn't talk it out. I was just suggesting that I don't think a difference in religious outlook should automatically be a dealbreaker.
fifasnipe2224
Member
It is not just coming up now. We spoke about it MANY times but never made it to far. Like I said she admitted THREE times that my plan was better for our child.. but a day or two later she "cannot live with the fact that her child is not Greek Orthodox" And I made it very clear that I I do not mind if my child is Greek Orthodox... as long as its her decision, not someone elses.
I see. The thing is people already do this though and so far I haven't really seen enough upsides to it to say it works better that way. The problem is that one sides usually never agrees to compromise so imo its best not to go there in the first place. You can ruin some people lives that way, but where if you'd just backed out it wouldn't have happened.
It could just be me though, but with relationship break-ups and divorce being higher than it ever has been people aren't convincing me I shouldn't think this way.
Edit:this isn't wasn't really aimed at you youngblood just so you know, i'm not trying to offend anyone either if my post somehow comes off that way.
Devolution
Member
Did you discuss it before she got knocked up? Did you discuss your religious views at all? You're already putting your daughter in the middle of a belief dispute. This seems to me like something you flesh out before you have kids.
For some it is, and it's obvious when people don't go out of their way to really discuss this.
Horseticuffs
Full werewolf off the buckle
I sure hope so, but human nature trumps the best parts of human spirituality pretty damn regularly
Let's not get out of hand here. I get where the OP is coming from. Participating to these rituals seems so... I don't want to use the word barbaric, but they seem just crazy to me. When I have a child I luckily won't have to deal with that sort of thing (if I keep dating Atheists, or if I knock up the one I'm with) - but if I had to? It would tear me apart. Not because I am a fanatic, or because I want make my kid an Atheist at 8 months - but because I would feel like I was being marginalized (if I made my position clear on the matter) and because I want to be as far removed from these sorts of rituals and what not as possible. Worst of all, ideally I want my kid growing up without all that religious nonsense clouding their brain - everyone wants to inscribe particular values on their kids, and seeing my child raised with values and considerations that are not only foreign to me, but something I tend to look down on? It would be hard.
It's hard OP - but there are other ways to fight for your position. Not like this.
The child wasn't so much 'traditionally planned' as it were, apparently.
all atheists are rational? i dont think Ive come across any group of individuals that make the most sweeping generalizations.
Holy crap, what an awesome post.
Seriously OP, I hope some of these posts are getting through to you.
Ask your girlfriend why baptism of a child is so essential but fornication and being unequally yoked is okay.
What I'm trying to say is that from your perspective I wouldn't worry too much about your girlfriend's religious influence on your daughter, since she herself doesn't actually seem too serious about it.
What I'm trying to say is that from your perspective I wouldn't worry too much about your girlfriend's religious influence on your daughter, since she herself doesn't actually seem too serious about it.
Tallshortman
Member
Really this is the only post this thread needs. I find it amazing some atheists don't realize they have made their atheism a religion in many ways. Anti-theism and atheism are not the same thing.
Also it's pretty damn clear OP came here for reassurance from what he expected to be a sympathetic crowd than actual advice.
Pristine_Condition
Member
Her saying "“If I knew you were atheist back when I met you I would never have dated you," is entirely appropriate and actually refreshingly honest. Obviously, to her, in the beginning stages of your relationship, you glossed over the whole "oh,"I'm an extremely hardline atheist" thing at the time to get laid. She's being honest. You obviously weren't so forthcoming with the rigidity of your stance at the time.
Not that it matters. You don't have any respect for her or her beliefs, clearly. You should have thought about that before choosing to have an important relationship with her yourself. You should've been the one saying "I don't date people who have strong religious beliefs, because I don't respect them."
I'm not saying "you don't respect her" just because you don't respect her religious beliefs. It's pretty easy to tell that from the way you talk about her and her family, and what you think they are doing.
Just look at the way you describe her and her "modes" like she's a machine or something in the passage above. That's supposed to be the person you love. That's the mother of your child, and you are describing her and the strategy you use arguing with her, and her "modes" like she's a fucking boss character in some game that you have to defeat.
Also in the passage it's like you are keeping score. It sounds so detached and weird to describe someone you are supposed to love and the fact that they are hurting and crying in that way.
EDIT: Metroid Killer nailed this. This isn't the normal feelings you should be having when having a fight with the mother of your children, if you love and respect her.
Not really. You are choosing to be rigid in your atheist beliefs. That's certainly your right, but it's also a choice. I think most people would disagree that this is the same as evoking a couple millenniums' worth of anti-Semitic persecution. In fact, it's kinda insulting to suggest it's remotely similar in context.
That said, I hope you can pick up the pieces, however you decide to do that. Sounds like you fucked up pretty bad, and have a lot of self-analysis to do.
fifasnipe2224
Member
Yes. A bit, to be fair I was not able to fully get me view out there prior to these recent conversations.
We tried clearing this and several times she has agreed with me. I honest think her family is the one pressuring her into getting our child baptized and forced into the religion.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
There seems to be a large disparity between:
- How important your atheism is to you, as well as the idea of your children choosing religion
and
- How much you communicated this with your girlfriend, who apparently didn't even know you were an atheist?
On the flip side, did she hide the fact that she's a Greek Orthodox from you?
Did you think about that before impregnating her?
I'm an atheist, and you ARE experiencing quite a bit of disgusting treatment over this IMO, but I still can't understand how you got yourself in this position in the first place.
But then again.. you rely on your parents for housing yet ended up with a pregnant girlfriend.. so perhaps wisdom is not one of your stronger traits.
Some really shitty comments in this thread though..
Dude is a fanatical atheist because he wants his daughter to choose whether she wants to be religious? Goes to show you how fucked up the general attitude towards atheists is.
- How important your atheism is to you, as well as the idea of your children choosing religion
and
- How much you communicated this with your girlfriend, who apparently didn't even know you were an atheist?
On the flip side, did she hide the fact that she's a Greek Orthodox from you?
Did you think about that before impregnating her?
I'm an atheist, and you ARE experiencing quite a bit of disgusting treatment over this IMO, but I still can't understand how you got yourself in this position in the first place.
But then again.. you rely on your parents for housing yet ended up with a pregnant girlfriend.. so perhaps wisdom is not one of your stronger traits.
Some really shitty comments in this thread though..
Dude is a fanatical atheist because he wants his daughter to choose whether she wants to be religious? Goes to show you how fucked up the general attitude towards atheists is.
It's almost impossible to force someone into religion, remember that. And if your daughter were to have a rational atheist father it would be even harder. Instead you've let your pride get in the way of raising your daughter.
Think about your priorities.
Is being a father higher or lower than being an atheist?
At least we don't believe people go to hell for lacking faith.
fifasnipe2224
Member
Win? Win what? Win what I think is best for my daughter??
I left because my dad kicked me out and I left my GF mostly due to the fact that she did not want me around, but more importantly she is NOT someone I can live with anymore.
Let them teach her their thing, and you teach yours. It will be okay if you compromise.
But here's the thing.
You can't hide religion from your kids their entire life anymore than a religious person can hide their kids from reason.
As a parent, you have to understand one important truth, at your worst you can do a ton of damage to your kids but even at your best you cannot assure their success. That is solely up to them. So then it is important to impart the tools for your kids to use for themselves to plot their own path. Because you frankly will never be able to control or even know what paths your kids will choose to take. So instead of throwing a tantrum about rituals and all that present to them an example of a person that lives beyond religion and is a moral good and happy person. Nothing undermines religion than the existence of a happy moral atheist.
Getting panties in a bunch over this isn't giving your kids any tools. It's just feeding your indignation.
edit: Also guys the ship has obviously sailed on the whole "Shuda thunk about that before having a kid!" thing. That doesn't help anyone.
First, I didn't say all. Second, you're right, I should've said atheists like to think of themselves as more rational. Not all are.
That's pretty messed up, but just go with it and let them baptize your kid. After which, ask them if they will allow for you to have your car blessed by a priest while wearing a dinosaur costume.
Religious beliefs are very important to people and you might have made a mistake getting into a relationship with someone that seems to feel as strongly about their religion that you do about atheism.
Religious beliefs are very important to people and you might have made a mistake getting into a relationship with someone that seems to feel as strongly about their religion that you do about atheism.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
How old are you OP?
So not having her father around is what's best for your daughter?
im not mad at you. a thread yesterday had atheist-gaf proclaiming people of religions are all idiots. so some of my thoughts are carrying over to this thread.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Definitely took the wrong approach. Think of it this way:
-You absolutely want the child to decide on her own. You see this as your right to decide because you are her father.
-She absolutely wants the child to have the church an active presence in her life. She sees this as her right to decide because she is her mother.
Who has more right over their child?
-You think she is being a bad influence on the child.
-She thinks you are robbing the child of something very important.
Can anyone truly prevent the child from choosing for herself? Is knowledge of religion truly without value even outside of itself? If you do not forbid her from teaching the child religion, would she be fair and allow you to also teach the child rationalism?
Really, your actions thus far, even as right as they may be in terms of influence upon the child, have been marred by insecurity, double standards, and belligerence. Religion also clearly has the upper hand in your life in terms of power, so fighting so directly and ultimately is ruining things for you. You need to come around and try to negotiate an "open borders policy" in regard to conversation with each other as well as the teaching of your child.
If you are confident that reason stands for itself, you can know your little girl will someday have the capacity to see the failures of religion. If your girlfriend has confidence that God is more powerful than the mind of man, she should have confidence that he will call her heart unto him. Ultimately, your daughter will choose what she does. If you can negotiate this sort of agreement now, your girlfriend will likely be more inclined to respect your daughter's autonomy rather than restrict her lifestyle when it inevitably differs from the archaic rules of the church.
That said... your father's response was FUCKED UP. Really sorry to hear about that. However, your response to that response, as wounded as it may have been, was fairly immature. When I became an atheist, some of my friends initially felt really betrayed, even ones who were used to dealing with unbelievers. Yet, because in conversation I guided them through the history of my experience, how the sense of God left over time and eventually the memory of it, my unanswered questions, and my inability to piece together a concept of God that is coherent, and things like these, they then understood where I was coming from.
So, watch this and this try to understand the power it still holds over them and gain some empathy for that, return to them more reasonable and more open, and don't get worked up just because they do. You are their son. They aren't hating you. That's not what it is.
-You absolutely want the child to decide on her own. You see this as your right to decide because you are her father.
-She absolutely wants the child to have the church an active presence in her life. She sees this as her right to decide because she is her mother.
Who has more right over their child?
-You think she is being a bad influence on the child.
-She thinks you are robbing the child of something very important.
Can anyone truly prevent the child from choosing for herself? Is knowledge of religion truly without value even outside of itself? If you do not forbid her from teaching the child religion, would she be fair and allow you to also teach the child rationalism?
Really, your actions thus far, even as right as they may be in terms of influence upon the child, have been marred by insecurity, double standards, and belligerence. Religion also clearly has the upper hand in your life in terms of power, so fighting so directly and ultimately is ruining things for you. You need to come around and try to negotiate an "open borders policy" in regard to conversation with each other as well as the teaching of your child.
If you are confident that reason stands for itself, you can know your little girl will someday have the capacity to see the failures of religion. If your girlfriend has confidence that God is more powerful than the mind of man, she should have confidence that he will call her heart unto him. Ultimately, your daughter will choose what she does. If you can negotiate this sort of agreement now, your girlfriend will likely be more inclined to respect your daughter's autonomy rather than restrict her lifestyle when it inevitably differs from the archaic rules of the church.
That said... your father's response was FUCKED UP. Really sorry to hear about that. However, your response to that response, as wounded as it may have been, was fairly immature. When I became an atheist, some of my friends initially felt really betrayed, even ones who were used to dealing with unbelievers. Yet, because in conversation I guided them through the history of my experience, how the sense of God left over time and eventually the memory of it, my unanswered questions, and my inability to piece together a concept of God that is coherent, and things like these, they then understood where I was coming from.
So, watch this and this try to understand the power it still holds over them and gain some empathy for that, return to them more reasonable and more open, and don't get worked up just because they do. You are their son. They aren't hating you. That's not what it is.
fifasnipe2224
Member
Well thats just it... she was not that religious when I first met her. And like I said, she is only religious because she is scared of what happens when you die. Thats why she made the decision to believe that when you die you either get reincarnated or heaven. THAT was not brought to my attention till just a few days ago.
This is BS. Forcing a religion upon a child is not parenting. Parenting is teaching your kid social norms. Kids absolutely should have a right to decide for themselves whether or not they believe in a religion.
That said, the OP should have gone ahead with the baptism and continued negotiating with his GF. While behaving a certain way does lead to beliefs, a single ceremony, especially at this age, isn't going to "brainwash" the kid.
Luscious LeftFoot
Member
This. So much this.
Even though you say your g/f is only thinking of herself, i can't help but feel you're doing the same.
plagiarize
Banned
when am I supposed to believe you?
Did your Dad throw you out, or did he say the two of you were going to have a chat, to which you laughed at him and left?fifasnipe2224 said:
which was it?
CF_Fighter
Member
Baptism is for the parents, pure and simple, at least when the person getting baptized is a baby or very young child. I was raised Episcopalian and I was taught that Confirmation is the process when the person, usually as a teenager, decides to affirm their faith.
You also make it sound like just because the child is baptized they won't focus on school, science, or math. I'm not sure where you live but even as a Christian I put more faith in science and math to help me out than a being outside of our realm and their legions of winged angels. You can be the one to show your daughter the beauty of mathematics, the wonders of the universe, and the awe-inspiring nature of the quantum and how we as humans, with minds that are always thirsty for more knowledge, have been the ones to see into the secrets these things hold. Show her that it was humanity who found these things out on their own, not because some winged being in a flowing white gown with a golden halo showed them.
So suck it up and let her get baptized, satisfy your girlfriend's desires, make good with your family, and put a Bible cover over a copy of "A Brief History of Time" and give it to your daughter when she starts to read.
You also make it sound like just because the child is baptized they won't focus on school, science, or math. I'm not sure where you live but even as a Christian I put more faith in science and math to help me out than a being outside of our realm and their legions of winged angels. You can be the one to show your daughter the beauty of mathematics, the wonders of the universe, and the awe-inspiring nature of the quantum and how we as humans, with minds that are always thirsty for more knowledge, have been the ones to see into the secrets these things hold. Show her that it was humanity who found these things out on their own, not because some winged being in a flowing white gown with a golden halo showed them.
So suck it up and let her get baptized, satisfy your girlfriend's desires, make good with your family, and put a Bible cover over a copy of "A Brief History of Time" and give it to your daughter when she starts to read.
Of course you can't, and I don't think the OP - or even I - are thinking about it on those terms. But I would much rather have my child approach religion (if they wanted to be religious) from a position of atheism, or said otherwise, I don't want my child to have to move away from religion, but to move toward one if that's what they desire. I also want to ensure that I get in their quick and cleanly with rationality, logic and the whole shebang before metaphysical concepts start piling up so that my child can approach them in the best possible way.
I don't want to fight an uphill battle.
I agree here - but on a less critical level. Obviously the OP didn't realize the full extent of the position he's in, and I imagine being a new parent is hard and filled with confusing and terrifying thoughts. He made a mistake in the way he acted, but he was also in a position where out of the gate his desires would HAVE to be undermined to make his girlfriend and the rest of his family happy.
He started from a difficult spot and didn't deal with it well, and while I think it's important that he starts to look at his actions more critically, I also do sympathise with his position and really wish he didn't have to deal with what he needs to deal with now, and I am glad it's not a burden I have to consider.
Quotes where people said religious people are idiots? Otherwise you are making a sweeping generalization.
Also:
Question Number 934:
If an Orthodox woman chooses to have a child out of wedlock, can she still baptize her child in the Orthodox Church, as a single mother?
ANSWER:
This becomes a matter of ecclesiastical discipline for the supervising bishop and clergy.
Clearly, choosing to have a child out of wedlock is unwise and a grave sin which results in formal or de facto (practical) excommunication. It is placing the child in a painful situation even for birth and probably for a lifetime.
Such a person has to be restored to the Church after a fairly lengthy period of penance, during which no sacrament is received, and because of which the child cannot normally be baptized, except for a decision of the bishop due to his pastoral examination of the situation.
http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/934/
That said, OP is still using religion as a wedge between himself and his child. Not cool.
Question Number 934:
If an Orthodox woman chooses to have a child out of wedlock, can she still baptize her child in the Orthodox Church, as a single mother?
ANSWER:
This becomes a matter of ecclesiastical discipline for the supervising bishop and clergy.
Clearly, choosing to have a child out of wedlock is unwise and a grave sin which results in formal or de facto (practical) excommunication. It is placing the child in a painful situation even for birth and probably for a lifetime.
Such a person has to be restored to the Church after a fairly lengthy period of penance, during which no sacrament is received, and because of which the child cannot normally be baptized, except for a decision of the bishop due to his pastoral examination of the situation.
http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/934/
That said, OP is still using religion as a wedge between himself and his child. Not cool.
Zoe
Member
Like it or not, exposing children to religion is the social norm.
And splashing some water onto an 8 month old's head is hardly forcing an entire religion.
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