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Atheist GAF, I seek your help!
- Thread starter fifasnipe2224
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Well, if we take his word for it, he's talked about it multiple times - but there haven't been any 'easy conclusions' about how to deal with the child. It's not easy, it's not a light switch sometimes. She is stubborn about it and so is he, and he has every right to be.
He has a tl:dr version in the OP.
Oppo
Member
OP said be basically didn't want anything to do with the Orthodoxy until the kid could decide for themselves what religion they are to take part in, if any.
I don't see this as an immature position to take. I see going through with an empty ritual, having family disown you due to not toeing the line god-wise, and his wife stepping behind his back and totally disrespecting his wishes for his daughter, as totally over the line. He's right as far as I'm concerned. Tone has nothing to do with it, this is his daughter's education, and this will come up over and over again until he figures out how to reach a compromise that both parties are happy with.
Devolution
Member
The immaturity comes in how he describes "winning the argument" and scoring it. There is no argument to be won. There has to be a compromise for the sake of his daughter.
Musha_Soturi
Member
This is why, as an atheist, I could never be with someone who was religious. Firstly, I could never really respect my partner if they believed in something that I think is ridiculous. But more importantly, we would never agree on how to raise our children, as I would never agree to brainwashing my child into believing something.
Zoe
Member
The only reason it is wrong and is not important to you is because you don't believe. OP is the sole minority among believers made up of his family and his girlfriend's family.
Great contribution.
I thought it was like, way poetic.
Angry Fork
Member
If someone dunks white paint and blood over themselves, rolls around in feathers and speaks to the sky for a token of good will, they're crazy, at least during that moment. I don't know why the baptism ritual is considered any different.
And I don't know why they should ever care about being insulted. For them heaven awaits and I will be tortured forever in the afterlife, why should they care what I have to say? I don't go into churches and call them idiots out of nowhere, that would be rude, but I will think so in my head and most people would feel the same way about cults in general.
Allowing lies and fearful paranoia/superstition to be taught to your child isn't a compromise someone should be willing to make. Obviously I'm just referring to the schooling thing though not the baptism. If the mother is this adamant about throwing her husband out over a glass of water who's to say she won't want the kid to grow up to be a tea partier?
Alligatorjandro
Banned
You should't have left your gf.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
But the mother didn't seem very open to a compromise, she even went behind his back like a total cunt.
Would a compromise even be necessary if this was regarding say, his daughter's education? If I ever have kids, there is no way I'd ever be willing to compromise on some topics such as "evolution", or "plate tectonics". I'd also be weary of teaching my kid about the existence of magic water.
Zoe: It's wrong and unimportant to everyone because there is no such thing as the supernatural.
I don't let people democratically vote on whether something is true or not. It either is or isn't, independent of sentient beings to interpret it.
CornBurrito
Member
Can you provide evidence that men are less susceptible to social pressures than women?
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Are you sure it wasn't presented in a way that is not insulting to the mother? His proposed compromise in the OP seems to be giving her almost everything she wants except for religious exclusivity, but including a baptism. The mother is viewing this as a competition as much or more than he is. Quotes like:
Make me feel like this family needs serious intervention from somebody, and that he has not been acting solely in the wrong here.
Dude Abides
Banned
You are right but you are not going to win. Religious people of the type you describe cannot be reasoned with, and if there's a fight over custody a religious mother will prevail over an irreligious father. The best you can hope for is to let your GF have her way and seek to undermine the hocus pocus at every turn. Enjoy watching her try to drag the kid to boring interminable church and laugh.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Let this be a lesson to those folks in interfaith marriages/relationships (and the purposes of this discussion, I consider athiesim and agnosticism to be a faith, even though I really know the score):
Before you say "I do" or "I reproduce", you really need to get this shit ironed out. I realize things change once the baby arrives, especially when people start considering their mortality and what they're leaving behind for their child. However, not having this really addressed will absolutely come to bite you on the ass.
I've had two big relationships in my life (and a few minor ones). One was with a Catholic girl who couldn't get over my athiesm. One was with a Buddhist girl who could. Guess which one I married? I guarantee you that when my kid arrives, my wife will want to take him to temples. She already prays with a prayer book and incense. It makes her happy and makes her feel more comfortable. I can get over it. We agreed to this when we decided it was time. It helps that Buddhism is a relatively light religion when it comes to "religiosity" and they aren't big on trying to put the whammy on the kids. I also have her agreement that if he wants to be a Buddhist, an Athiest, a Catholic, a Baptist, a Muslim or whatever... that's his choice. As long as he's doing it because he wants to do it, it's not our business as long as he's happy.
Ordinarily I'd have suggested to the OP to just deal with the Baptism and go through the motions because he's not going to win right now, but it sounds like this has already blown up and just going along to get along isn't going to work for you. However it works out, you've certainly learned the hard way.
I suggest that however you resolve this that you, your family, and your girlfriend and her family all figure out that you're all using a goddamn child as an ideological weapon when you should really be focusing on what should be best for that child. It's really quite shameful. I realize you didn't want to hear that from some damn stranger on the internet and that there are some folks who would say any religion is bad no matter what, but, seriously... when you have a child, it ain't about you any more.
Before you say "I do" or "I reproduce", you really need to get this shit ironed out. I realize things change once the baby arrives, especially when people start considering their mortality and what they're leaving behind for their child. However, not having this really addressed will absolutely come to bite you on the ass.
I've had two big relationships in my life (and a few minor ones). One was with a Catholic girl who couldn't get over my athiesm. One was with a Buddhist girl who could. Guess which one I married? I guarantee you that when my kid arrives, my wife will want to take him to temples. She already prays with a prayer book and incense. It makes her happy and makes her feel more comfortable. I can get over it. We agreed to this when we decided it was time. It helps that Buddhism is a relatively light religion when it comes to "religiosity" and they aren't big on trying to put the whammy on the kids. I also have her agreement that if he wants to be a Buddhist, an Athiest, a Catholic, a Baptist, a Muslim or whatever... that's his choice. As long as he's doing it because he wants to do it, it's not our business as long as he's happy.
Ordinarily I'd have suggested to the OP to just deal with the Baptism and go through the motions because he's not going to win right now, but it sounds like this has already blown up and just going along to get along isn't going to work for you. However it works out, you've certainly learned the hard way.
I suggest that however you resolve this that you, your family, and your girlfriend and her family all figure out that you're all using a goddamn child as an ideological weapon when you should really be focusing on what should be best for that child. It's really quite shameful. I realize you didn't want to hear that from some damn stranger on the internet and that there are some folks who would say any religion is bad no matter what, but, seriously... when you have a child, it ain't about you any more.
Oppo
Member
It's not a great frame, granted. It can be very irritating when people try to 'lawyer' their way through arguments. A common tactic amongst the nerds, if I do say so myself. I've been accused of the same thing.
But again it's not about tone - it's about the fact that he seems to have a more open approach. He's arguing that the daughter should have a choice in this. The mother is against that, wants to make the choice for the daughter. The Op thought he had finished this discussion a few times already, only to be blindsided anew later on. The choice of words is poor but dont' lose the forest for the trees.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Well, this just gets to learning to pick one's battles. I understand that someone who is not religious and values freedom of thought and developing critical thinking skills will inevitably have to draw a line in the sand somewhere in regards to, if not religious thought outright than at least fundamentalist religious thought (I would certainly step in at the latter though not be concerned much with the former). However, I think many would agree that the line need not extend to baptism. And using it to invoke the slippery slope makes this situation more melodramatic than it needs to be.
One need not applaud the mother for her actions here to see that the OP's are lamentable and counterproductive in the grand scheme of things.
Devolution
Member
I don't really think participating in rituals makes someone crazy by default.
This is a bit presumptuous, you still have no idea how she will be raised.
I'm not taking her side but if the OP wants to see his daughter he needs to think long and hard about how he's coming across.
A good religious school teaches actual science and saves the beliefs for a Theology/Religious Ethics class. My ex got a wonderful education at a religious school and just ignored that other class. Kids aren't stupid. You can tell them what's what.
The family really isn't going to budge I'm betting, especially given how he blew up. I have no idea how she's actually putting this forth but the OP seems far from rational about this so far. I don't even disagree with his opinions but he's got to consider it's not just his decision, and so should others.
saltinekracka
Member
This is not healthy relationship advice.
Zoe
Member
I don't completely agree with your first point. I mean, I personally agree with you, but that's because I put very little importance into the whole family unit. People like the OP's girlfriend believe it's the entire family's duty to raise the child. The girlfriend was already making compromises by agreeing to not raise her child like the cousins.
And just to speak specifically to this scenario, I have more respect for someone who was raised religious and comes out as an atheist than someone who is an atheist because that's the only thing they've ever known.
Except nothing the OP has said indicates that he would actually teach the child about taking part in religion. The way he describes it is like the way we learn Greek mythology. There's a difference between being taught about beliefs and being taught to believe.
fifasnipe2224
Member
I use the term winning to easily describe the fact that she agreed with me and we should proceed with me idea. Not winning in the sense that I have conquered the situation or I am better then her. Scoring it.... not sure why I did it, maybe just to easily show she has admitted that my idea, of how religion should be brought into a child life, was correct three times and not once have I said the same to her... because its not.
Compromise... yes! I am said at a certain age. I have not gone into what might be an appropriator age.
My girl friends opinion? Only 8 months. That is NOT meeting me half way.
Angry Fork
Member
Imagine a neo nazi teaching his child white power until it's 17 and then letting it choose, as if that's reasonable, lol.
Dude Abides
Banned
He's not in a healthy relationship. What's your advice, convert?
saltinekracka
Member
Why are you still arguing your point against your gf? Most people are telling you back down and put your family first, not provide you with counter arguments.
saltinekracka
Member
To not heed your terrible advice. The point of this thread is to improve his situation.
Devolution
Member
Well what's done is done and you're not going to steer her away from anything without being in her life. It's going to suck but it sounds like you'll have to suck up the grandparent's and your wife's opinions in this matter to just get back into your daughter's life. If they persist in any sort of religious upbringing I would suggest just spending a lot of time with her to keep her perspective wide and less dogmatic.
Oppo
Member
He is putting his family first. He wants his daughter to have a choice. I don't understand why that's such a hard thing to respect, versus "respecting the wishes "of his girlfriend who insists on basically not budging from orthodox religion.
Tallshortman
Member
And you think continuously undermining it would help it further? Giving no advice is far better than giving bad advice.
Devolution
Member
Do you not understand how insulting this is to anyone who's been brought up in a religious household?
Dude Abides
Banned
So nothing. What I thought.
Oh please. He's free to express his opinion on the gobbledygook. Ashley will be just fine, I promise.
fifasnipe2224
Member
Something that I failed mention was that I believe most of a influence is coming from her side of the family to baptize the child and raise it in their tradition. Once my child is baptized they will force the religion down her throat.
And no... I am not trying to win a fight or argument with my gf. I am trying to make sure my daughter has a solid foundation and I do not think one based on lies and fear is a solid start.
I'm an atheist, but I was raised Catholic. While growing up, my mother was the believer and my dad was (and still is an atheist).
I was baptized as a baby. Went to Catholic school in Canada. When it was time for me to be confirmed into the Catholic church (age 13 or 14), I decided that I didn't want to be. But my dad convinced me to do it for my mom.
I don't know if my little story helps at all, but whatever.
I was baptized as a baby. Went to Catholic school in Canada. When it was time for me to be confirmed into the Catholic church (age 13 or 14), I decided that I didn't want to be. But my dad convinced me to do it for my mom.
I don't know if my little story helps at all, but whatever.
I didn't know how to end my post, so I just said "but whatever"
EnderWiggles
Member
Do you not understand how demeaning your post is to Neo Nazis?
False equivalency - and I'd wager most of us here have had the experience of being bought up in a religious household, and I'm sure it really wasn't *that* bad, unless one of your families was of the bat-shit conservative insane variety.
Oh you got me!
I get what you are saying, but I think my problem is that I expect a level of love, consideration and respect from a family that the OP is certainly not getting. The idea that he has to bend to their collective will infuriates me, because its his daughter, and obviously he wants to raise her in his own way. I had a father that mostly didn't give a shit what i was up to as long as he didn't think i was gay.
I know when i have a child i won't let anyone else have more of say as to how i raise him/her than me and the mother.
I'm not necessarily condoning the ops actions, but the spirit of his struggle really strikes a chord with me, and the suggestions that are essentially "smile, nod and let your child have a religious upbringing" are extremely depressing.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
They're Greek Orthodox. Probability of bat-shit conservatism much higher than average, even if we didn't already know they hate Atheism.
I was going to say that...
Super conservatives can be just as bad as neo nazi's(Remembering that the NeoNazi teachings are 1 part hate, and 1 part religious.. there are after school programs/camp days, etc...) Thats a fair comparison. Both are pretty insane when it comes to brainwashing their children...
Its brainwashing with morality tied into it. Both fuck kids up when they are adults and need to work in the normal world.
That would depend on the religious household right? How about the Phelps? Or do we ignore them?
Rofl. Goddamn I wanted to use that!
Oppo
Member
Hope the kid isn't gay. Greek Orthodox is not exactly cool with that (the church itself is vocally against gay marriage, at least).
damn, I just spit lunch out all over my desk.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Well, you're not going to be able to give that solid foundation to your daughter if you're not part of her life.
Lie to your significant other and family, and tell them that you've realized the errors of your ways and am sorry. Give your blessing for the baptizment to get into their good books, and behind the scenes you can make sure that her mind is sharpened and not dulled down to make it an easier target for greco-orthodox religious indoctrination.
I just have to say I find it a bit funny that this very religious family and GF are so up in arms about religion now... guess that wasn't in the picture when the sex was happening.
Anyways OP you need to do what is best for your daughter. Lets look at your base here.
1)Probably young, at least young enough that you are living with your GF at your parents place(ouch) and seem to have a shitty job.
2) Your own parents are basically against you, including issues now with dad.
You are in zero posiition to fight right now if that is what you want. I'd go talk to your dad and make amends(be humble) and then talk to your GF and get her and your daughter moved back in. Use your dad as help here, tell her you spoke with him etc.
Let this play out for awhile, your GF might just be in a bit of phase here, newborn etc, let it play out. If you see it becoming a permanent thing and you don't like and don't want to be with her then start making plans to get a better job get your own place etc.
Plan ahead.
Anyways OP you need to do what is best for your daughter. Lets look at your base here.
1)Probably young, at least young enough that you are living with your GF at your parents place(ouch) and seem to have a shitty job.
2) Your own parents are basically against you, including issues now with dad.
You are in zero posiition to fight right now if that is what you want. I'd go talk to your dad and make amends(be humble) and then talk to your GF and get her and your daughter moved back in. Use your dad as help here, tell her you spoke with him etc.
Let this play out for awhile, your GF might just be in a bit of phase here, newborn etc, let it play out. If you see it becoming a permanent thing and you don't like and don't want to be with her then start making plans to get a better job get your own place etc.
Plan ahead.
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