Support NeoGAF

[Punished Miku]

Its a good interview with more nuance than the headline alone. A cool conversation between two game directors.

I agree with his points about Atreus and his points about Kratos in Ragnarok specifically.

 

[Griffon]

A broken clock is right twice a day.

It doesn't take a genius to see how badly Atreyus' character was handled.

 

[Markio128]

A broken clock is right twice a day.

It doesn't take a genius to see how badly Atreyus' character was handled.

What, as an annoying, petulant teenager? I thought they hit the spot with that one, considering I’m the father of one.

 

[Raven117]

What, as an annoying, petulant teenager? I thought they hit the spot with that one, considering I’m the father of one.

This was my thought as well.

That character was in fact an annoying teenager.

(Whether they should have changed that to some extent… maybe that’s the question)

 

[The_Observer]

He’s right, the modern language style writing and voice acting was vomit inducing, and Atreus is the worst

 

[fudgybrownie]

Liked him in the 1st game but 2nd game his gameplay was so boring.

 

[midnightAI]

I'm glad we have people to tell us what is or isn't a bad character, much better than making up our own minds.

(In other words... Harrisonfordwhogivesashit.gif)

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Mildly funny given how comically one-note Kratos was in the first game.

 

[Gaiff]

He’s right, the modern language style writing and voice acting was vomit inducing, and Atreus is the worst

Some of it really took me out. When Odin said, "I'll keep my ex off your back." Now, I know they're based on norsemen and having them speak with "thou art" wouldn't make much more sense but this was just weird. The language should have tried to be more neutral. They didn't have to speak old English but they didn't have to make Odin use the same language as the boss of a NY crime family even if that's the vibe they were going for. "We're square." What? The king of Asgard really said that. Freakin' Thor said, "I could care less." which is a mistake people who don't know how to write make because it's "I couldn't care less."

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Yeah ... Sony western narrative games has gone to shit since woke of us 2 ... being daddy kratos, bitch fat aloy or strong jaw deformed mary jane all of this games sucks now... my next box is going to be a third party machine.. whatever it may be. Exclusives that I cared are basically dead for me anyway.

So you care for games that are dead to you? Checks out.

 

[The_Observer]

Some of it really took me out. When Odin said, "I'll keep my ex off your back." Now, I know they're based on norsemen and having them speak with "thou art" wouldn't make much more sense but this was just weird. The language should have tried to be more neutral. They didn't have to speak old English but they didn't have to make Odin use the same language as the boss of a NY crime family even if that's the vibe they were going for. "We're square." What? The king of Asgard really said that. Freakin' Thor said, "I could care less." which is a mistake people who don't know how to write do because it's "I couldn't care less."

Yep, it’s so obvious that it was not written by a decent writer but a braindead political activist who just wanted to insert his/her bullshit without treating the subject with respect.

Also it’s funny that some people in this thread are generalizing that all teens are the same but I guess if we said same generalizations about different types of people they would start ”reeeeeing”... Just the usual double standard I guess

 

[Kokoloko85]

He ruined Ragnarok.

They went for a whole Raiden MGS2 thing where you expect to be playing as Kratos, but for about half the game you're forced into TERRIBLE Atreus levels. It sucked.

Your not playing as Atreus for the half the game. You play as him like 5 times, probably 20-25%of the game if that.
You play as Raiden for most of the game, they arent comparable really. Its not a swop of characters at all like MGS2

 

[King Dazzar]

I had no problems with Atreus as a secondary support character who you occasionally play as. But I wouldn't like to play a whole game with him on his own.

Atreus is by no means terrible, but just not at the same level as Kratos.

 

[ManaByte]

Your not playing as Atreus for the half the game. You play as him like 5 times, probably 20-25%of the game if that.
You play as Raiden for most of the game, they arent comparable really. Its not a swop of characters at all like MGS2

No it is like MGS2. It's game directors chasing Kojima.

Ragnarok did it.
TLOU2 did it.
Halo 5 did it.
Gears did it.

They think if they make a sequel where you don't play as the protagonist from the first game suddenly they're a genius like Kojima.

 

[RoboFu]

I kept waiting him to die to trigger Kratos's evolution back to the rage filled warrior.

 

[Puscifer]

coming from the guy who has mental health problems and hasn't made an interesting character his whole life? yes, lets believe him.

Everything he has ever created was either shallow horror stories (TM) or basic revenge story (OG Kratos), nothing he has ever made had depth.

This a pretty cringe response even for NeoGAF

 

[Gaiff]

Its a good interview with more nuance than the headline alone. A cool conversation between two game directors.

I agree with his points about Atreus and his points about Kratos in Ragnarok specifically.

Yeah, I like the part where Jaffe touches upon the fact that God of War is pulp/entertainment and not literary. Kratos is more akin to a comic book superhero than the protagonist of a novel. It's also true that Kratos at the end of Ragnarok is not really Kratos anymore. His past remains the same but none of his character traits remain. Jaffe said that it would be fine if that's where the story ended. The arc and journey would have been complete but Kratos is an iconic character who will surely return, so how do you repackage him and still make him interesting in the next game without butchering the growth that took place in 2018 and Ragnarok?

 

[FUBARx89]

He was awful and one tone as a character in Ragnarok. His gameplay sections where the biggest slogs in the game for me. More so the whole

Spoiler

Ironwood or whatever segment.

Boring, slow and far to long

 

[Kokoloko85]

No it is like MGS2. It's game directors chasing Kojima.

Ragnarok did it.
TLOU2 did it.
Halo 5 did it.
Gears did it.

They think if they make a sequel where you don't play as the protagonist from the first game suddenly they're a genius like Kojima.

MGS2 swops the main character Solid Snake for Raiden after the first hour, where you dont play as Snake again.
TLOU2 Swops the main character Joel for Ellie and you also play as Abbie. First game had 2 playable characters Joel and Ellie
.
Ragnarok you play and finish the game with Kratos. And can carry on playing the game when it ends with Kratos. You play as Atreus for 20% of the game of the main story, a total of 5-6 segments. He doesnt replace Kratos at all, not even close.

 

[Hohenheim]

He's very right.
The part where I had to control that little prick almost made me drop the whole game. So incredible boring.

 

[Shits_McGiggles]

God of War Ragnarok’s story was just terrible all around. What is it with modern Sony butchering sequels with drastically worse dialogue and stories?

 

[Chuck Berry]

Boy did Ragnarok fucking suck

 

[hemo memo]

He’s right

 

[Dr. Claus]

He was fine in the first game. He became an annoying angsty teenage little shit in the second. What particularly annoyed me is how thoroughly modern he is written. He doesn't behave or speak like the son of a former Spartan captain and a Norse mother. He speaks like the son of suburban white parents who grew up on a coastal city in the pacific west. You know, the kind of weak parents who are afraid to beat their kids when they step out of line.

Because the writers for Ragnarok suck. They can’t write for shit.

 

[GymWolf]

Your not playing as Atreus for the half the game. You play as him like 5 times, probably 20-25%of the game if that.
You play as Raiden for most of the game, they arent comparable really. Its not a swop of characters at all like MGS2

Yeah, that was a weird opinion...

 

[FeralEcho]

Kids don't act the same throughout history or places. There are cultural norms and differences. You think a kid raised by strict Muslim parents will act the same as one raised by white liberal parents in the United States? They won't. The fact that you just paint kids with broad strokes without acknowledging the historical and cultural nuances is telling enough. I never dream of insulting my dad as a teenager and he was nowhere near as strict and scary as Kratos. Both Spartan and Norse cultures at the time prized honoring one's parents and respecting them unlike today. Insulting your dad (or mom) was completely off-limits.

That scene reminded me of when I went to school and liberal kids would tell me about how they told their parents off and all I would think was, "Holy shit, my dad would have killed me if I had dared talk back, let alone insult him."

Again, no. This would make sense if Atreus was some kid raised in LA. Ask a Greek person from just one generation ago if they would ever insult their parents even if they were angry and get back to me with the answer. The game utterly fails to capture the environment that would shape Atreus into what he is. They just write him like any modern teenage boy, which is nonsensical.

 

[Senua]

coming from the guy who has mental health problems and hasn't made an interesting character his whole life? yes, lets believe him.

Everything he has ever created was either shallow horror stories (TM) or basic revenge story (OG Kratos), nothing he has ever made had depth.

 

[FeralEcho]

Aren’t all teens annoying and whiners? I actually think they got it right.

Except this is not a teen in 2024... it's supposed to be a teen in ancient Norse mythology...Atreus is shit because he acts like a kid in 2024 raised by woke parents who never tell their child no..
Not like a child in times where kids are supposed to me more mature than adults at 12 years old.

Especially with parents that are literal Gods and Giants.

 

[Punished Miku]

coming from the guy who has mental health problems and hasn't made an interesting character his whole life? yes, lets believe him.

Everything he has ever created was either shallow horror stories (TM) or basic revenge story (OG Kratos), nothing he has ever made had depth.

No one insults the fictional Atreus while tmlDan is around

 

[Fbh]

The story in Ragnarok just sucked, and was a detriment from the otherwise fun gameplay.
Atreus is just boring, his design is boring, his skills are boring and he behaves like a vanilla good guy. I agree with Jaffee, there's nothing cool or fun about him.

But more than that I agree with his point about Kratos. What they did to his character would be fine if he reached that point at the end of the game and it was the end of the franchise. But since he basically already went through his whole character development by the beginning of the game, we are just left with a more boring version of the character. Savage, vengeful Kratos that will murder everyone in his way to protect his son is more fun than grumpy old man who spends all the game talking about war and violence being bad.

 

[Bloobs]

davidjaffe

 

[Dr. Claus]

coming from the guy who has mental health problems and hasn't made an interesting character his whole life? yes, lets believe him.

Everything he has ever created was either shallow horror stories (TM) or basic revenge story (OG Kratos), nothing he has ever made had depth.

God of War 1 followed the Greek myth story telling style to the letter and made it a timeless tale.

God if War Ragnarok wrote everyone like they were suburban liberals in California.

You clearly know nothing on quality of narratives or writing.

 

[TheRedRiders]

I've been vocal about my dislike for David Gariffter's shitty takes being blown into full on threads every other week over here, but I do agree with him here.

I think many of us who have been invested in God of War, especially since the original trilogy, just want to play as Kratos and "fuck shit up". with a good storyline of course... the last thing we want to do us deal with a bratty teenage kid who thinks he's the second coming of Christ.

 

[Rudius]

Ragnarok was disappointing. Not bad, but disappointing.

 

[tommib]

Except this is not a teen in 2024... it's supposed to be a teen in ancient Norse mythology...Atreus is shit because he acts like a kid in 2024 raised by woke parents who never tell their child no..
Not like a child in times where kids are supposed to me more mature than adults at 12 years old.

Especially with parents that are literal Gods and Giants.

Lol are there accurate social studies about Norse MYTHology? It’s fiction. You write what you want. Greek mythos is full of whiners.

 

[R6Rider]

He ruined Ragnarok.

 

[Gaiff]

Lol are there accurate social studies about Norse MYTHology? It’s fiction. You write what you want. Greek mythos is full of whiners.

This is such a lazy cop-out. Do you need social studies in 9th century Scandinavia to know that teenagers at the time weren't like those in 21st century California? We have a wealth of information regarding the social norms, functions, cultural, and religious practices of norsemen/vikings in the middle ages and beyond.

Saying, "this is just fantasy and do whatever you want bro," isn't even an argument. If Kratos started speaking like an Italian-American from Little Italy in Brooklyn, you would cringe and not go, "Well, how do you know they didn't speak like this?".

Come on.

 

[Bloobs]

Yeah, I like the part where Jaffe touches upon the fact that God of War is pulp/entertainment and not literary. Kratos is more akin to a comic book superhero than the protagonist of a novel. It's also true that Kratos at the end of Ragnarok is not really Kratos anymore. His past remains the same but none of his character traits remain. Jaffe said that it would be fine if that's where the story ended. The arc and journey would have been complete but Kratos is an iconic character who will surely return, so how do you repackage him and still make him interesting in the next game without butchering the growth that took place in 2018 and Ragnarok?

Multiverse baby!

 

[tommib]

This is such a lazy cop-out. Do you need social studies in 9th century Scandinavia to know that teenagers at the time weren't like those in 21st century California? We have a wealth of information regarding the social norms, functions, cultural, and religious practices of norsemen/vikings in the middle ages and beyond.

Saying, "this is just fantasy and do whatever you want bro," isn't even an argument. If Kratos started speaking like an Italian-American from Little Italy in Brooklyn, you would cringe and not go, "Well, how do you know they didn't speak like this?".

Come on.

Well, everyone’s speaking American English in my version of Ragnorak.

For all to know, I didn’t really like the game but we’re talking about a global video game blockbuster which comes off as a Netflix soap opera and of course they would have Atreus as an angry-emo teen who’s actually acceptable by the end. It’s relatable to most of teen gamers and current parents.

You people need to think globally. This is not a niche Japanese AA game for Platinum fans. This is THE Sony blockbuster by excellence. Written for a global audience. For 10 million people.

Again, I didn’t like the game and represents everything I don’t like about the nu-Sony. Focusing on Atreus with such hatred is just weird to me.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Jaffe the social media grifter stinks, but his games were way more fun than modern GoW.

Don't you mean, "game". Jaffe only made the first one.

Corey Barlog, i.e. the director of new GOW and Ragnarok, made arguably the best OG GOW game in the form of GOW2.

So, your lack of enjoyment for modern GOW has nothing to do with the change in director.

He turns into an insufferable knob in the second.

Everybody is missing the point.

Atreus is supposed to be an annoying whiny little cunt. He's a teenager and most teenagers are annoying whiny little cunts. Now imagine one with godlike powers and it's easy to see why Atreus is written the way he's written.

It's entirely the point that he's not supposed to be a likeable character.

It's just that Jaffe and many in here are mistaking an exceptionally effectively written unlikeable character for bad writing. It's actually very good writing that has resulted in a character that you're intended to loathe, that you actually do loathe.

 

[FeralEcho]

Lol are there accurate social studies about Norse MYTHology? It’s fiction. You write what you want. Greek mythos is full of whiners.

Yes it's fiction.But even fiction has to make sense and fit within the lore and universe they created as a series.Which clearly the writters of Ragnarok and to a lesser extent 2018 gave no fuck about as they wrote a 2024 angsty teen in a story about mythology and ancient Gods.

And lets not act like we don't already have examples of teens in God of War.

Kratos and Deimos in Ghost of Sparta are NOTHING like Atreus....Atreus is a whiny bitch throughout the entirety of the series whereas Kratos and Deimos show more spine in that one scene as teens.

 

[tommib]

Yes it's fiction.But even fiction has to make sense and fit within the lore and universe they created as a series.Which clearly the writters of Ragnarok and to a lesser extent 2018 gave no fuck about as they wrote a 2024 angsty teen in a story about mythology and ancient Gods.

And lets not act like we don't already have examples of teens in God of War.

Kratos and Deimos in Ghost of Sparta are NOTHING like Atreus....Atreus is a whiny bitch throughout the entirety of the series whereas Kratos and Deimos show more spine in that one scene as teens.

Well then he’s just a whiny little bitch unlike everyone else. Oh no, he has an actual personality? That you dislike? You don’t think that’s intentional? I do.

 

[Wandering Leopard]

I wouldn't classify Atreus as "terrible" but it's a growing trend (online) for most people to articulate things in a black and white way.

I'd say Atreus has gone through good character development but he's just safe, and too boring to be the main protagonist (but there are a lot of other boring protagonists who people like).

The most disappointing thing is that he's supposed to be Loki - and they don't play on it at all.
I'm not expecting accuracy because they don't have a history of accurate portrayals of their mythological characters but they need to give him some aspects of Loki.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

This is so true, he ruined the game. His gameplay was shit, his character was shit...He is shit...and the game suffers for it. I never thought I would say this about a God Of War game but Ragnarok was massively over reviewed. It was probably an 7 or 8 out of 10 but as if "journalists" would dare to rank a god of war game from SSM that low. It's literally flushing any coverage rights and marketing support from Sony down the toilet.

It’s better than any MS exclusive this gen, even with its warts of pacing. The gameplay is exceptionally strong

 

[Shakka43]

It's true. I really disliked his gameplay sessions, mediocre bow skills combined with awful melee attacks and he's just not that interesting of a character.

 

[Fess]

Yeah, I like the part where Jaffe touches upon the fact that God of War is pulp/entertainment and not literary. Kratos is more akin to a comic book superhero than the protagonist of a novel. It's also true that Kratos at the end of Ragnarok is not really Kratos anymore. His past remains the same but none of his character traits remain. Jaffe said that it would be fine if that's where the story ended. The arc and journey would have been complete but Kratos is an iconic character who will surely return, so how do you repackage him and still make him interesting in the next game without butchering the growth that took place in 2018 and Ragnarok?

Thoughtful post. I liked Kratos journey as a character through these two games, would be a real shame if they throw that away in the next game. I hope they do something good with what they’ve built up.

As for Atreus… Doesn’t matter that he indeed behave like a teenage brat. I just didn’t like him and didn’t want to play as him, like ever. Jaffe is spot on in how they miss the mark on that. For me it felt like I was pulled away from the game I wanted to play and I couldn’t wait for those sections to end so I could play as cranky ol Kratos again.

 

[GutsOfThor]

Jaffe is correct. Get rid of that little shit for the next God of War game.

 

[FeralEcho]

Well then he’s just a whiny little bitch unlike everyone else. Oh no, he has an actual personality? That you dislike? You don’t think that’s intentional? I do.

That's just a cop out for shitty writting...

As if that was indeed the case the fact that so many people think he's a terrible character says all about how terrible the execution was.

Joffrey Baratheon in GOT is also supposed to be a character you dislike but no one thinks he's a terrible character....Why?

Because it fits the universe, he's a spoiled brat who had everything on a silver platter and was never told no,what with him being the "son" of the King,and was also a product of incest which makes his whiny spoiled brat demeanour make sense in the context of his "condition".

But Atreus? His parents are the most strict people in the world.All gods are shown to be terrible people to their children in this universe. Odin himself treats his son like he's a tool.

And Kratos literally only starts loosening up after Atreus is already old enough to have his personality atuned yet he's already a spoiled brat by then.He gets even more entitled once he learns his powers.

The point is he has no reason to have this conflict in him as if his mom or dad were paragons of good and never said no to him when it's clear based on the Universe they created that Gods are supposed to be terrible beings to their children and eachother.And Kratos of all people was one of the worst of them.(Which is why we loved him as a character)

And sure,you might say that he's special and different than the rest because he was a product of both Giants and Gods but the execution is shit,since,if as you said you're not supposed to like him...they sure as hell try to paint him as a special wellmeaning little shit...

Writters couldn't just pick a side and stick with it,instead we get this telenovela of angsty teens in Ragnarok reminiscent of Marvel superhero shlock and not dark mythology which is what the series started as.

 

[MrRibeye]

Atreus felt like a female rogue to me with all the acrobatics and bow wielding.

 

[Robb]

I don’t really know if he is or isn’t. I know I don’t like him though. The entire ‘dad of war’ angle in the new games isn’t really my cup of tea tbh.