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"Atreus is a Terrible Character", Says David Jaffe, God of War Creator

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Actually, it's surprising (shocking) that this matter is not explored in the two games, especially the first. There's a huge hole with important events that aren't even touched.

I disagree with the idea of the original trilogy being pulp and not being well-written. Kratos has a typical hero's journey (villain in this case) and never acts out of character. The pacing is better than in the new games, too.
David Jaffe calls it pulp and he's correct. He was contrasting pulp with the more literary style of The Last of Us. As another poster mentioned, it's not criticism within this context. It's simply what they were going for with the original trilogy.
 

Northeastmonk

Gold Member
I liked playing the new GoW game(s), but I wouldn’t be hurt if I never played as Atreus. He’s not a PlayStation All Star. Most days I forget he ever existed.

His personality is so lame. Especially if you’ve been a fan since GoW1 came out on PS2.
 
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Pelao

Member
I put up with his playable sections in Ragnarok, despite how boring many of them were.
I must have forgotten how bad they were when they added NG+ because I tried it, but his first section killed my run and I never picked it up again.
 
For one, how would a child raised in one part by Fey and the other part by Kratos grow up to disrespect his parent? 10-year-old Atreus would have never insulted Kratos. So what happened 4 years later for him to do that when all this time he got closer to his father who taught him discipline, focus, and hard work? The way he behaves doesn't even make sense with what Kratos had been teaching him for the past several years prior to Ragnarok nor how he was as a kid.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that you don't have kids and haven't spent any significant time around teenagers.

They rebel... it's in their nature to do so.

Atreus never knew raging Kratos so why would that influence him in the slightest?

Of course he did. Kratos is his father. He knew about Kratos's past with all the Greek Gods. It's wholly implied by the dialogue in which they touch on his relationship with Zeus and the rest of the Greek Pantheon.

Kratos would have told Atreus his entire life story by this point.

That he's thick-headed and impulsive is fine. That's just the way he is. That he's disrespectful and entitled is nonsensical based on his environment, parents, and background. As if Kratos would ever raise a kid to be disrespectful.

Again, you really haven't spent any significant time around teens, haven't you. They're ALL disrespectful and entitled, irrespective of who their parents are and how they were raised.

Atreus is a god and knows he is. So, it's going to magnified to the nth degree for him.

I never said that. I said that with the way the new series is written, they actually need to write believable characters. With the original series, they didn't need to because as Jaffe so eloquently put it, it was pulp. There was no higher purpose or breaking down of characters or intentional character arcs and all of that. Atreus does not need to be likeable. He needs to be believable

Well, he is believable. It'd just that you're measuring him by some entirely unrealistic, entirely idealized version of how teenagers behave. Go spend some time in a middle-school as a volunteer and you'll see just how believable Atreus's behaviour is.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I'm gonna go ahead and say that you don't have kids and haven't spent any significant time around teenagers.
And you're completely wrong.
They rebel... it's in their nature to do so.
There's a difference between rebelling and calling your father an asshole. Disobeying your parents is a natural process of growing up. Notice I didn't say a thing about Atreus disregarding Kratos' instructions and doing as he pleases? This is normal for a growing boy who is transitioning into adulthood. What isn't normal is insulting his father who was very strict in raising him. Did he even apologize for calling Kratos that?
Of course he did. Kratos is his father. He knew about Kratos's past with all the Greek Gods. It's wholly implied by the dialogue in which they touch on his relationship with Zeus and the rest of the Greek Pantheon.

Kratos would have told Atreus his entire life story by this point.
He didn't know Kratos' past. No one did besides Fey. What Atreus did know is that Kratos could get angry when fighting and he called out Kratos on that because Kratos told him he shouldn't let his emotions control him. Kratos then replied that anger could be a weapon, but only if he harnesses it. Atreus had no idea about what happened until Kratos told him. Not that it matters, because merely knowing Kratos' past wouldn't be grounds to replicate his behavior. Atreus would have needed to see it himself to be greatly influenced by it. If he sees Kratos act with patience on a daily basis, this will influence him far more than hearing that Kratos lost his shit and killed people centuries ago. You can't seriously be arguing that Atreus would imitate old Kratos he's never seen but ignore the influence of current Kratos whom he spends every waking hour with.
Again, you really haven't spent any significant time around teens, haven't you. They're ALL disrespectful and entitled, irrespective of who their parents are and how they were raised.
This is completely false.
Atreus is a god and knows he is. So, it's going to magnified to the nth degree for him.
And this was already explored in GOW 2018. We had a whole arc dedicated to Atreus acting like a little turd and losing his mind because he found out he was a god. This part is done. Atreus admitted he wasn't himself and Kratos told him to quit it. Did he somehow regress?
Well, he is believable. It'd just that you're measuring him by some entirely unrealistic, entirely idealized version of how teenagers behave.
As opposed to you who claims every teenager is disrespectful and entitled? Sure.

Go spend some time in a middle-school as a volunteer and you'll see just how believable Atreus's behaviour is.
Which is exactly the point. He behaves like a modern 21st-century western kid, but he isn't that. He's a kid who was raised by a strict Spartan father and a mother whose society is based on 10th-12th century Scandinavian communities. You telling me to go look at modern kids for reference proves exactly my point. That or you haven't been paying attention.

Me: Atreus behaves like a 21st-century kid when he isn't one. That's why his writing isn't believable.

You: Go look at 21st-century kids. They behave like Atreus.


Come On What GIF by MOODMAN
 
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DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
I like jaffe. I rarely agree with him or have to but he is unapologetically himself and I respect that massively.
 

winjer

Gold Member
Atreus is one of the 3 main reasons I didn't even consider buying Ragnarök after GoW 2018.

I have to fully agree. Atreus is such a terrible and annoying character, that I lost all interest in Ragnarök. I'll probably never buy it and play it.
It's just not worth the aggravation.
 

gerth666

Member
I agree. For me the worst parts of Ragnarok was playing as him. It was like a chore. It's why for me Ragnarok will never truly be a great game, just okay
 
Agreed, Atreus is at times completely insufferable. I do believe however that is the point. The GoW games really are a coming of age for him as a character. Him setting out on his own at the end of Ragnarok should help mature him. If there is an Atreus stand alone game I do hope it is set a number of years later after that process has taken place.

What I would like to see from a new GoW game:
  • Introduction of Egyptian pantheon
  • Loki figures out the remaining giants crossed over to the lands of the gods of Egypt
  • He follows them to find that they have been enslaved and are being used to erect monuments
  • Loki intervenes and is captured
  • Loki finds a way to get a message to Kratos
  • Kratos journeys to the lands of Egypt with Mimir to save his son with help from Freya, Angrobodr and Thrud
I really do hope it's something like the above. War between pantheons would be awesome with Kratos once again acting as the God of War.
 
In the first game, it made sense, that was the point as a side kick and he slowly started growing on you. No issues there. In the second game, they doubled down and made him 100% unlikeable, forcing us to play as him in a God of War game. Out of touch developers and fuck Cory.
 

RaduN

Member
To be fair, Kratos is shite. Tries so hard to be bad ass. He's just ass.
Exactly.

There is some attempt at character development in the old games, but it's badly done even by a 10:00 am cartoon quality, but we all went along 'cose gore and shit.

The recent games again act like they are some narrative masterpieces but they are just as crap, just with more low voice dialogue and more head shakes. But still, gore and shit.
 
Kids don't act the same throughout history or places. There are cultural norms and differences. You think a kid raised by strict Muslim parents will act the same as one raised by white liberal parents in the United States? They won't. The fact that you just paint kids with broad strokes without acknowledging the historical and cultural nuances is telling enough. I never dreamed of insulting my dad as a teenager and he was nowhere near as strict and scary as Kratos. Both Spartan and Norse cultures at the time prized honoring one's parents and respecting them, unlike today. Insulting your dad (or mom) was completely off-limits.

That scene reminded me of when I went to school and liberal kids would tell me about how they told their parents off and all I would think was, "Holy shit, my dad would have killed me if I had dared talk back, let alone insult him."

Again, no. This would make sense if Atreus was some kid raised in LA. Ask a Greek person from just one generation ago if they would ever insult their parents even if they were angry and get back to me with the answer. The game utterly fails to capture the environment that would shape Atreus into what he is. They just write him like any modern teenage boy, which is nonsensical.
Born in the 80's and yes I would fucking yell to my parents when I was a teen regardless of how they would react ( I have been slapped, yelled, punished) who cares at that age. I am Greek btw.

Everyone at my age was like that, actually the harsher the parents where the worst was the kickback.
 

PatientGamer

Gold Member
Jaffe again lol...

He's kinda right, but that's just teenagers... I don't know any truly "bad-ass" 14-year olds (is he even 14 yet?).

There's a lot on his shoulders; in the next game he's deffo gonna be the main.
 

cormack12

Gold Member
Damn, these sort of takes belong in the controversial thread.

In all honesty, I think this is - again - a case of some ego inflated developer who thinks they can create polarising/annoying characters, then with their skill make us eventually come round to them.

Well we haven't, he's a ginger shit who drinks tea through his nostril and plays Mah Jong with his Indonesian friend because he's that much of a bad boy.
 

FoxMcChief

Gold Member
The character is a kid. Of course he’s terrible to watch/play. Kids suck.

I speak from experience of having 3 kids, and I actually like mine. But yeah, kids suck.
 
Never understood the hype about these games... I bought the first one on sale digitally and couldn't make myself go through it. No way I'd get Rag.
 

peronmls

Member
The writing was bad and very surface level. I don’t like Jaffe but he is right. Nothing was new or interesting the way they bonded. They all acted like a cliche. Also I want to rip that dumb beard of Krados face. He looks like a tool.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Never understood the hype about these games... I bought the first one on sale digitally and couldn't make myself go through it. No way I'd get Rag.

Well if you started with Dad of War in 2018 then yeah, you won’t understand the hype.

Now if you go back and play the original trilogy, you’ll understand the hype. Especially GoW3.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
No that isn’t “just teenagers”. Or do you think all teenagers across time, space, and cultures all act like spoiled liberal Californian brats?
This, they are in world fill with gods and magic and they act like high school kids in modern world.

Heck Thor’s daughter thinks of becoming Valkyrie as college course she needs to take.
 
Never understood the hype about these games... I bought the first one on sale digitally and couldn't make myself go through it. No way I'd get Rag.
same. lukas did the same thing after both the original star wars trilogy & the original indiana jones: he attempted to take what was classic juvenile pulp adventure & make it more 'realistic'. it was awkward then, & it will always be awkward. for me, there's just too much cognitive dissonance required to make the 'transformation' believable/acceptable...

& the weak writing's just the cherry on top...
 

Gamerguy84

Member
I see Dave trying to become a respected member of the community again huh?

I loved GoW 2018. It was a bold step to remake it with all the changes, paid off in spades.

GoWR was great up until it felt like Atreyus character narrative was forced on us and it got old quick. Didn't hate it but it could have been better.

Remake the whole series in 3rd person.
 
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Dynomite

Member
Not sure about that in hindsight.

In 2018 he was average but in Ragnarok he had great moments and was objectively more fun to play than Kratos. I went from "Please God don't make a Atreus spin-off" to "I'd play that" after how fast and fluid he was and switching to the Wolf form. Could get a more modern game akin to the original GOW Trilogy through Atreus with how it plays and feels.
There was not one moment in the game where he was better than Kratos.
 

MonkD

Member
Nope, Atreus grows throughout the games and matures, goes through hardships, learns from them and adapts. Kids do dumb things, imagine if they found out they were gods? I bet the next game you'll love him (if he's one of the main characters). You just hate kids, most likely, he doesn't have to be "cool", he's a kid.
Isn't he talking about visual and gameplay design? You're arguing about character.
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
The sections with him and Angrboda are straight torture to play through. As somebody who loved GOW 2018 (in my top three of last generation), I couldn't believe how much I hated Ragnarok.
yea i hated this section as well, this also applies to spiderman 2
Not sure why the devs thinks this is a good idea.

I want to play a video game, not watching slow walking scenes
 

StueyDuck

Member
I agree in some respect and disagree in others.

He should have been set up better in ragnarok, that end scene in the cave where there's like bombastic music and atreus was staring out into the distance like a superhero had 0 impact, rather than what they expected it to.

However, it's also far too easy to make it look like you are trying to replace Kratos. Which would have rubbed fans the wrong way. That's why I'm glad Kratos wasn't offed in ragnarok and they can do more with him in sequels
 
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PatientGamer

Gold Member
No that isn’t “just teenagers”. Or do you think all teenagers across time, space, and cultures all act like spoiled liberal Californian brats?
hehe good point. Perhaps it's just a result of modern western cultures that create spoiled liberal californian brats
 
The natural narrative step forward is that the pupil replaces his master. And that happens by killing the master or retiring him because of reasons. But for this to be accepted by fans, it has to happen naturally and of course, the replacement must be good.

Ragnarok should have made a better character out of Atreus so he carries the mantle. The problem is that he is unfit to become MC.

I don't trust any present dev to continue a legacy franchise with a new MC. The probability of not being a disappointment is zero.
 
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