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[Hohenheim]

It's just that Jaffe and many in here are mistaking an exceptionally effectively written unlikeable character for bad writing. It's actually very good writing that has resulted in a character that you're intended to loathe, that you actually do loathe.

It's a big difference between writing a unlikable character that adds to a story and to write a unlikable character that makes the story and the game as a whole a lot worse, and almost unplayable.

 

[hinch7]

A broken clock is right twice a day.

It doesn't take a genius to see how badly Atreyus' character was handled.

Not only that but they neutered Kratos as well and his potential.

You don't see many people talking about Ragnarok as it was such a forgettable game; especially when compared to 2018's release.

 

[Gaiff]

Don't you mean, "game". Jaffe only made the first one.

Corey Barlog, i.e. the director of new GOW and Ragnarok, made arguably the best OG GOW game in the form of GOW2.

So, your lack of enjoyment for modern GOW has nothing to do with the change in director.



Everybody is missing the point.

Atreus is supposed to be an annoying whiny little cunt. He's a teenager and most teenagers are annoying whiny little cunts. Now imagine one with godlike powers and it's easy to see why Atreus is written the way he's written.

It's entirely the point that he's not supposed to be a likeable character.

It's just that Jaffe and many in here are mistaking an exceptionally effectively written unlikeable character for bad writing. It's actually very good writing that has resulted in a character that you're intended to loathe, that you actually do loathe.

Nah, I entirely disagree. Characters don't have to be likeable to be good. Given GOW's writing, however, they have to be believable. Atreus isn't written in a believable way with his background, parentage, and surroundings taken into account. Writing unlikeable characters is fine if it's the intent. Writing non-believable character almost never is fine.

Look no further than Modi in GOW 2018. Thoroughly unlikeable. He's whiny, immature, rude, cowardly, and entitled. Given his background, who is father is, and his relationship with his brother, the way he behaves is believable. It doesn't change that he's a despicable piece of shit far better written than Atreus.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

All in all, was pretty brave of SSM to turn their icon into a disabled man for the newest two titles.

 

[Danjin44]

I hate, HATE how the kids in this game talk like they are in modern world teenagers even tho the setting is in Norse mythology.

it feels so fucking unnatural.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

He was fine in the first game. He became an annoying angsty teenage little shit in the second. What particularly annoyed me is how thoroughly modern he is written. He doesn't behave or speak like the son of a former Spartan captain and a Norse mother. He speaks like the son of suburban white parents who grew up on a coastal city in the pacific west. You know, the kind of weak parents who are afraid to beat their kids when they step out of line.

Makes sense as Kratos characterization in Ragnorok was basically a toothless and outdated conservative dad in a shitty sitcom that everyone rolls their eyes at.

 

[Dr. Claus]

That's just a cop out for shitty writting...

As if that was indeed the case the fact that so many people think he's a terrible character says all about how terrible the execution was.

Joffrey Baratheon in GOT is also supposed to be a character you dislike but no one thinks he's a terrible character....Why?

Because it fits the universe, he's a spoiled brat who had everything on a silver platter and was never told no,what with him being the "son" of the King,and was also a product of incest which makes his whiny spoiled brat demeanour make sense in the context of his "condition".

But Atreus? His parents are the most strict people in the world.All gods are shown to be terrible people to their children in this universe. Odin himself treats his son like he's a tool.

And Kratos literally only starts loosening up after Atreus is already old enough to have his personality atuned yet he's already a spoiled brat by then.He gets even more entitled once he learns his powers.

The point is he has no reason to have this conflict in him as if his mom or dad were paragons of good and never said no to him when it's clear based on the Universe they created that Gods are supposed to be terrible beings to their children and eachother.And Kratos of all people was one of the worst of them.(Which is why we loved him as a character)

And sure,you might say that he's special and different than the rest because he was a product of both Giants and Gods but the execution is shit,since,if as you said you're not supposed to like him...they sure as hell try to paint him as a special wellmeaning little shit...

Writters couldn't just pick a side and stick with it,instead we get this telenovela of angsty teens in Ragnarok reminiscent of Marvel superhero shlock and not dark mythology which is what the series started as.

You are 100% correct, but people will still hand wave it away because reasons.

 

[semiconscious]

"That guy needed to be set up by the end of Ragnarök or the middle of Ragnarök to be like, 'F*ck, that dude is cool, I wanna be that guy!' And Ragnarök didn't give us that,"

man, i'm having tomb raider deja vu. remember how tr 2013 appeared to set things up, & everyone was thinking by the end 'finally, we get to see the 'real' lara croft next time'? except that 2 sequels later the 'real' lara croft still hadn't shown up? permanent juvenile syndrome?...

 

[T4keD0wN]

Why the hell would jaffe want him to become a cool character? Atreus is about as unlikeable and annoying as Genji.

I am still waiting to play the latest one as its not on PC for another 2 months, but i couldnt stand him in 2018. The whole hook for me is that i get to put that whiny little liability down as the whole first game serves as a build up and ultimately hinting that at the end. Nice to hear he gets worse in the second since itll make it all the more satisfying and if he somehow survives a game thats called Ragnarok the franchise is cooked.

 

[Sushi_Combo]

After reflecting post playthrough, I can agree that Atreus is not a very good written character and the entirety of Ragnarok was kinda pointless and forgettable.

Felt like the writers wanted to imitate how Marvel movies are done.

 

[Banjo64]

A broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[Games of Today]

As well as the fact that the actual battle of Ragnorok portion was one of the most boring climax's I've ever seen in a videogame.

All the cool things were happening to everyone else instead of Kratos. It's pathetic he didn't ride the back of the world serpent and fight Thor, it would have been so sick.

ALSO, you don't even get to fight the fucking giant. You just walk through a portal to end the game. BOOOOOOO!

 

[Agent_4Seven]

Yep dude needs to go through puberty before we see him again.

Never again!

 

[bender]

Like father, like son.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

It's a big difference between writing a unlikable character that adds to a story and to write a unlikable character that makes the story and the game as a whole a lot worse, and almost unplayable.

Lol, cute. I think you just have fragile sensibilities.

I thought Artreus was a cunt, but it didn't negatively impact the wider story at all. I enjoyed the story of both games and Atreus's cuntiness only added to the impact of his growth as a character.

Nah, I entirely disagree. Characters don't have to be likeable to be good. Given GOW's writing, however, they have to be believable. Atreus isn't written in a believable way with his background, parentage, and surroundings taken into account. Writing unlikeable characters is fine if it's the intent. Writing non-believable character almost never is fine.

Pray tell, what part of Atreus's character is unbelievable?

I disagree completely. He's entirely believable and given his stage of life, his god-hood and knowledge of how much of a raging juggernaut his father used to be. He's a dysfunctional teenager, who is made even more dysfunctional by his circumstances and the fact of him being a god.

He's thick-headed and impulsive and desperately wants out from under the shadow of his father. And one of the central themes of the plot is the tension between that aforementioned desire and his father's sentiment that he's not ready; which gets proven on numerous occasions.

Look no further than Modi in GOW 2018. Thoroughly unlikeable. He's whiny, immature, rude, cowardly, and entitled. Given his background, who is father is, and his relationship with his brother, the way he behaves is believable. It doesn't change that he's a despicable piece of shit far better written than Atreus.

I thought you said GOW's writing was unbelievable, and yet you didn't even need to go beyond the same game to find another character who is well-written and believable.

I agree with you on Modi, by the way, but not on Atreus. They're both well-written. It's just that Modi is not a playable character, and so you're not forced to participate in his cunty behaviour.

Honestly, I think that's the real gripe that you and others have. It's not that Atreus is a poorly written character. It's just that being written to be an annoying bratty teen, but being a playable character forces you to participate in his wankery. GOW 2018 had far less payable Atreus, and so people complained about him much less. So, I think there's merit to my hypothesis.

 

[Roufianos]

He was alright in the original, his arc where he becomes an arrogant little shit was pretty funny.

But man, he suuuucked in Ragnarok. The section in that garden or whatever was just a nightmare.

Terrible and cringe Marvel quips galore.

Only interesting thing about Atreus is he's Kratos's son. Take Kratos out the scene and you realise he's dull as fuck.

I'll never replay that game as I can't stand the thought of redoing those Atreus sections.

 

[Gaiff]

Pray tell, what part of Atreus's character is unbelievable?

For one, how would a child raised in one part by Fey and the other part by Kratos grow up to disrespect his parent? 10-year-old Atreus would have never insulted Kratos. So what happened 4 years later for him to do that when all this time he got closer to his father who taught him discipline, focus, and hard work? The way he behaves doesn't even make sense with what Kratos had been teaching him for the past several years prior to Ragnarok nor how he was as a kid.

I disagree completely. He's entirely believable and given his stage of life, his god-hood and knowledge of how much of a raging juggernaut his father used to be. He's a dysfunctional teenager, who is made even more dysfunctional by his circumstances and the fact of him being a god.

Atreus never knew raging Kratos so why would that influence him in the slightest? On the contrary, Kratos teaches him that anger should be tempered and controlled. An important plot point is how Kratos controls his rage in the new series as opposed to the original one. Heimdall for instance calls Atreus disrespectful and entitled. What part of a child raised in the woods by strict parents would cause him to become disrespectful and entitled? He once lost it when he learned he was a god, but we're past this. That's the only part in 2018 where he blatantly disrespected Kratos.

He's thick-headed and impulsive and desperately wants out from under the shadow of his father. And one of the central themes of the plot is the tension between that aforementioned desire and his father's sentiment that he's not ready; which gets proven on numerous occasions.

That he's thick-headed and impulsive is fine. That's just the way he is. That he's disrespectful and entitled is nonsensical based on his environment, parents, and background. As if Kratos would ever raise a kid to be disrespectful.

I thought you said GOW's writing was unbelievable, and yet you didn't even need to go beyond the same game to find another character who is well-written and believable.

I never said that. I said that with the way the new series is written, they actually need to write believable characters. With the original series, they didn't need to because as Jaffe so eloquently put it, it was pulp. There was no higher purpose or breaking down of characters or intentional character arcs and all of that. Atreus does not need to be likeable. He needs to be believable and I think they fail in that respect. He acts like an angtsy 21st century teen, not like the half-god son of a Spartan warrior.

 

[Esppiral]

He has the most realistic human behaviour in the game.

 

[Fake]

They keep trying to create someone to replace Kratos, but never worked because Kratos is the best character of Sony from ages.

Aloy and Atreus are head to head to receive the crown of the worst character of this generation.

 

[Pimpollo818]

there's only one beer left

 

[Kacho]

Obviously lol. This is the lowest hanging fruit imaginable.

They need to go back to the basics like Gears of War is doing. It’s time.

 

[arkhamguy123]

God of War Ragnarok’s story was just terrible all around. What is it with modern Sony butchering sequels with drastically worse dialogue and stories?

You know why

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

Imagine if Torrent in Elden Ring constantly bitched, forced you to do slow walking sections and had a fucking fauxhawk.

 

[DenchDeckard]

The worst part about ragnarok for me was as soon as I felt the pace was picking up with kratos and I'm getting into the really quite great combat. Unlocking combos, getting a new weapon....the story would drag me to be atreus and completely ruin my fun.

No game should ever do that. Yes have a lul and a build up but don't drag me into playing some shit character who has terrible combat, not a good skill tree etc.

It was a shame. A real shame.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

He was fine in the first game. He became an annoying angsty teenage little shit in the second. What particularly annoyed me is how thoroughly modern he is written. He doesn't behave or speak like the son of a former Spartan captain and a Norse mother. He speaks like the son of suburban white parents who grew up on a coastal city in the pacific west. You know, the kind of weak parents who are afraid to beat their kids when they step out of line.

Atreus gives toddler leash vibes.

 

[Danjin44]

Imagine if Torrent in Elden Ring constantly bitched, forced you to do slow walking sections and had a fucking fauxhawk.

I don’t mind characters talk to you during the journey like in NieR Replicant/Automata but in Ragnarok the characters don’t even give me some time to explore before ruining the puzzles.

 

[semiconscious]

I never said that. I said that with the way the new series is written, they actually need to write believable characters. With the original series, they didn't need to because as Jaffe so eloquently put it, it was pulp. There was no higher purpose or breaking down of characters or intentional character arcs and all of that. Atreus does not need to be likeable. He needs to be believable and I think they fail in that respect. He acts like an angtsy 21st century teen, not like the half-god son of a Spartan warrior.

bingo! & what's weird is, i'm not really sure that there is a way to do this. some might point to uncharted 4, but i personally thought that was pretty botched, as well (I mean, how does nate, walking off into the sunset with cassie, explain to her the necessity of he & her mom killing thousands of guys on their way to 'living the good life'?). when you've got characters, classic characters even (lara croft?), grounded in pulp, attempting to make them 'believable' is, i think, a task doomed to failure. i'm not saying it'll necessarily fail, financially. but i'm not sure it can ever really feel quite right...

 

[PropellerEar]

 

[Dr. Claus]

Lol, cute. I think you just have fragile sensibilities.

I thought Artreus was a cunt, but it didn't negatively impact the wider story at all. I enjoyed the story of both games and Atreus's cuntiness only added to the impact of his growth as a character.



Pray tell, what part of Atreus's character is unbelievable?

I disagree completely. He's entirely believable and given his stage of life, his god-hood and knowledge of how much of a raging juggernaut his father used to be. He's a dysfunctional teenager, who is made even more dysfunctional by his circumstances and the fact of him being a god.

He's thick-headed and impulsive and desperately wants out from under the shadow of his father. And one of the central themes of the plot is the tension between that aforementioned desire and his father's sentiment that he's not ready; which gets proven on numerous occasions.



I thought you said GOW's writing was unbelievable, and yet you didn't even need to go beyond the same game to find another character who is well-written and believable.

I agree with you on Modi, by the way, but not on Atreus. They're both well-written. It's just that Modi is not a playable character, and so you're not forced to participate in his cunty behaviour.

Honestly, I think that's the real gripe that you and others have. It's not that Atreus is a poorly written character. It's just that being written to be an annoying bratty teen, but being a playable character forces you to participate in his wankery. GOW 2018 had far less payable Atreus, and so people complained about him much less. So, I think there's merit to my hypothesis.

He is believable, if you think that every teenager across time, space, and cultures all act the exact same - like spoiled liberal californian brats.

 

[simpatico]

You're saying modeling a power fantasy action hero set in antiquity after a 21st century spoiled teenage wasn't a stellar idea? But Sony are the masters of mature, debonair storytelling. I don't believe Jaffe.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

Kids don't act the same throughout history or places. There are cultural norms and differences. You think a kid raised by strict Muslim parents will act the same as one raised by white liberal parents in the United States? They won't. The fact that you just paint kids with broad strokes without acknowledging the historical and cultural nuances is telling enough. I never dreamed of insulting my dad as a teenager and he was nowhere near as strict and scary as Kratos. Both Spartan and Norse cultures at the time prized honoring one's parents and respecting them unlike today. Insulting your dad (or mom) was completely off-limits.

That scene reminded me of when I went to school and liberal kids would tell me about how they told their parents off and all I would think was, "Holy shit, my dad would have killed me if I had dared talk back, let alone insult him."

Again, no. This would make sense if Atreus was some kid raised in LA. Ask a Greek person from just one generation ago if they would ever insult their parents even if they were angry and get back to me with the answer. The game utterly fails to capture the environment that would shape Atreus into what he is. They just write him like any modern teenage boy, which is nonsensical.

You have been spot on about everything, now, I'd like to mention something else :

Unfortunately, the absolutely shitty Americanisms and Marverl-ization have seeped into...pretty much everything nowadays - something which is to be expected since "Western" culture (American that is) is the (again, unfortunately), the status quo.

Having said that, the writing in these games have been extremely horrible due to a complete lack of nuisance due to trying to cater to the lowest common denominator (the American audience generally speaking), the lack of subtlety and cliche'-athon is just mind-boggling, I mean, you have the typical comedic relief character that speaks with a Scottish accent (Mimir-why?), one of the dwarves that speaks like a friggin' Redneck trucker (why?) Atreus which - like you said - speaks and acts like a 21st century white MURRICAN suburban kid (why?), Odin feels like a character straight out of an FX drama and as for the rest of the characters...it's all kinds of mediocre.

Listen, I'm not expecting the game to be in Archaic Greek or Norse (God forbid they actually put the work required) but...between the forced diversity, the shitty American-style® writing that has the nuance of a 10 tonne brick hitting you in the face at 120km/h...I just can't - and the worst thing is that you can't even express this kind of opinion 'cause otherwise the usual suspects will be pulling the usual "racist" and " lol, why so angry ? It's just a vidjya game/fantasy" card - and this doesn't have to do exclusively with GOW but... every piece of media that's based (loosely or not) on historic facts, foreign, non-'Murrican culture, mythology etc etc, i die a little bit inside everytime I read comments on forums/YouTube etc doing the same old song and dance - and the CONSTANT gaslighting from the directors, production companies , devs etc etc aren't making things easier...

It's basically become a case of bowing to the shitty universal Americanisms/mannerisms and having to obey to the trite, banal, cliche' modern "culture", "correctness" and "sensitivities" 'cause otherwise...

Basically, a country with a 500 year old "history" is dictating the terms of what should acceptable when it comes to everything - even to countries/people/cultures that have been around for more than 3000 years...

 

[MethodRed]

Annoying character, Kratos didn't need a kid and they make him with long dialogues and silly talk

 

[Hohenheim]

The section in that garden or whatever was just a nightmare

This was the part where I almost tapped out. Nightmare fuel.

 

[Hohenheim]

Lol, cute. I think you just have fragile sensibilities

I think you're just wrong.
Glad you enjoyed the game a lot though! I found it to be ok, nothing more. But with my cute, fragile sensibilities I guess that's to be expected.

 

[Shits_McGiggles]

You know why

I just find it funny and pathetic that Sony has been desperately trying to make “cinematic story” games their bread and butter, while simultaneously hiring the most incompetent writers and such possible.

 

[CrustyBritches]

He’s such an annoying little shit.

 

[Fake]

Imagine if Torrent in Elden Ring constantly bitched, forced you to do slow walking sections and had a fucking fauxhawk.

Dude, now you mention would be my worst nightmare. Just don't give those folks ideia.

 

[Touch fuzZy. get BizZay]

dang remember that romantic yak ride through the swamp with the boring loser kids

I almost didn't make it lol

 

[Valedix]

Really needs to be a huge time gap for the third game, teenage Atreus was annoying AF and the Giants level was incredibly boring.

 

[Gaiff]

Really needs to be a huge time gap for the third game, teenage Atreus was annoying AF and the Giants level was incredibly boring.

Or better yet, don’t bring back Atreus. They could do some sort of presequel that takes place after Kratos left Greece but before he arrives in the Norse realms.

We could also see him grow from his angry and vengeful classic self to the more compassionate and patient one in the reboot.

 

[Dr. Claus]

You have been spot on about everything, now, I'd like to mention something else :

Unfortunately, the absolutely shitty Americanisms and Marverl-ization have seeped into...pretty much everything nowadays - something which is to be expected since "Western" culture (American that is) is the (again, unfortunately), the status quo.

Having said that, the writing in these games have been extremely horrible due to a complete lack of nuisance due to trying to cater to the lowest common denominator (the American audience generally speaking), the lack of subtlety and cliche'-athon is just mind-boggling, I mean, you have the typical comedic relief character that speaks with a Scottish accent (Mimir-why?), one of the dwarves that speaks like a friggin' Redneck trucker (why?) Atreus which - like you said - speaks and acts like a 21st century white MURRICAN suburban kid (why?), Odin feels like a character straight out of an FX drama and as for the rest of the characters...it's all kinds of mediocre.

Listen, I'm not expecting the game to be in Archaic Greek or Norse (God forbid they actually put the work required) but...between the forced diversity, the shitty American-style® writing that has the nuance of a 10 tonne brick hitting you in the face at 120km/h...I just can't - and the worst thing is that you can't even express this kind of opinion 'cause otherwise the usual suspects will be pulling the usual "racist" and " lol, why so angry ? It's just a vidjya game/fantasy" card - and this doesn't have to do exclusively with GOW but... every piece of media that's based (loosely or not) on historic facts, foreign, non-'Murrican culture, mythology etc etc, i die a little bit inside everytime I read comments on forums/YouTube etc doing the same old song and dance - and the CONSTANT gaslighting from the directors, production companies , devs etc etc aren't making things easier...

It's basically become a case of bowing to the shitty universal Americanisms/mannerisms and having to obey to the trite, banal, cliche' modern "culture", "correctness" and "sensitivities" 'cause otherwise...

Basically, a country with a 500 year old "history" is dictating the terms of what should acceptable when it comes to everything - even to countries/people/cultures that have been around for more than 3000 years...

I would argue that the current “cultural zeitgeist” that is prominent in this game and many others isn’t American culture. It is the absence of it. The death of culture.

 

[semiconscious]

I would argue that the current “cultural zeitgeist” that is prominent in this game and many others isn’t American culture. It is the absence of it. The death of culture.

it's a completely fabricated, synthetic culture. unlike genuine culture, which rises up from the streets, it's delivered to us from above. what's cool, what's wholesome, what's offensive, what has value? they decide. 'our' western uni-culture is fundamentally being forced upon us, & those who opt to go along with it enable it...

what's weird, of course:

The Western nations surveyed in the study have a combined population of nearly 1 billion – approximately 13% of the global population of 8 billion. This is a mere fraction of the populations of China (1.41 billion), India (1.39 billion), Russia (142 million), and Türkiye (83 million)...

https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/02/25/west-rest-world-eu-study/#:~:text=The Western nations surveyed in,and Türkiye (83 million).

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Or better yet, don’t bring back Atreus. They could do some sort of presequel that takes place after Kratos left Greece but before he arrives in the Norse realms.

We could also see him grow from his angry and vengeful classic self to the more compassionate and patient one in the reboot.

Actually, it's surprising (shocking) that this matter is not explored in the two games, especially the first. There's a huge hole with important events that aren't even touched.

I disagree with the idea of the original trilogy being pulp and not being well-written. Kratos has a typical hero's journey (villain in this case) and never acts out of character. The pacing is better than in the new games, too.

 

[Dr. Claus]

it's a completely fabricated, synthetic culture. unlike genuine culture, which rises up from the streets, it's delivered to us from above. what's cool, what's wholesome, what's offensive, what has value? they decide. 'our' western uni-culture is fundamentally being forced upon us, & those who opt to go along with it enable it...

what's weird, of course:

https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/02/25/west-rest-world-eu-study/#:~:text=The Western nations surveyed in,and Türkiye (83 million).

Yep, and they want to destroy classical culture. Greek, Roman, essentially the entirety of the western world and replace it with their manufactured trash.

 

[Barakov]

​

During a recent interview with Days Gone director John Garvin, David Jaffe, the legendary game designer and creator of the God of War series, shared his opinion on Atreus, Kratos' son from the new God of War games, describing the boy as a "terrible character."

Discussing how characters evolve throughout a story and the drastic changes Santa Monica made to Kratos' character in the new games – transforming him from Rage Incarnate into a concerned, aging father – Jaffe explained that he considers Atreus to be a "terrible character" from both visual and gameplay perspectives.

According to the developer, he does actually like the character's function as Kratos' son, but at the same time, he believes that all the potential Atreus had by the end of the 2018 God of War was wasted in Ragnarök.


Commented Jaffe.



Source

 

[Cert.in.Death]

Jaffe: the most baffling character to have ever graced gamers

 

[semiconscious]

Yep, and they want to destroy classical culture. Greek, Roman, essentially the entirety of the western world and replace it with their manufactured trash.

well, what isn't yours is seen as ' the competition'. & they just aren't into competing...

 

[Bernardougf]

So you care for games that are dead to you? Checks out.

"Cared" reading is hard I know ..

 

[R6Rider]

Listening to Jaffe speak is more annoying than anything Atreus does in the game.

 

[semiconscious]

I disagree with the idea of the original trilogy being pulp and not being well-written. Kratos has a typical hero's journey (villain in this case) and never acts out of character. The pacing is better than in the new games, too.

true. but, while they also have hero journeys, neither does conan the barbarian or tarzan of the apes. both of which are quite well written & well paced. but this doesn't mean that they aren't pulp:

Pulp magazines were the next evolution of the dime novels of the 1800s: high-passion adventure stories and romances that smacked with heart. Despite their racier subject matter, or more likely because of it, “the pulps” were wildly popular in their fifty-year heyday...

https://lithub.com/in-praise-of-pulp-fiction/

pulp's not a criticism. there's loads of great pulp adventures, like the original star wars & uncharted trilogies. it's just a slight bit... 'unrealistic'?...