• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Audio for next-gen optical disk, explaining DD+/DTS HD(powerpoint madness for Joo)

K

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Recent Japan Seminar on Dolby Digital Plus and dts-HD:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe....watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050713/aes.htm

aes03.jpg

The bit rate comparison of DD and DD+


aes04.jpg




aes05.jpg




aes06.jpg

Conceptual drawing of 7.1ch decoding



aes09.jpg




aes10.jpg




aes12.jpg

Comparing the old MPL Lossless (DVD Audio) vs the improved version, now called Dolby Digital Lossless (HD-DVD and BRD)



aes13.jpg

Compatibility between new and old MLP



aes14.jpg
 
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe...atch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050801/dolby.htm


dolby03.jpg




dolby04.jpg

dash=not included, triangle=optional,2circles=standard,1 circle=standard but 2 channels



dolby05.jpg



dolby06.jpg

Backwards, but not forwards compatibility....like a PS3:D



dolby07.jpg

7.1ch DD+ stream is read by a DD decoder as a normal DD 5.1 stream




dolby08.jpg

Table showing the bit steam demands of MLP next gen (Dolby Digital Lossless)



dolby09.jpg

K.Lee's Next gen Home Theater.....SIXTEEN POINT TWO CHANNELS BABY!! :D



dolby10.jpg

Chart with names of each channel in a 16.2 setup



dolby11.jpg

*masterbates furiously*



dolby12.jpg

OSD OVERLOAD!!!!



dolby13.jpg

So simple, even an ISF technician can set it up :D :D :D




dolby14.jpg

OK....uh...maybe not :(
 
1 question I have been thinking is will next-gen games use these new sound format or will they be using normal DD5.1 or DTS?

I hope at least full-bitrate DD5.1 or DTS will be the standard for all games next-gen though, even in gameplay.
 
I haven't gone into detail with the powerpoints, but HOLY SHITE AT 13.1!!!

Glad I didn't upgrade yet :P
 
Actually, it can go up to 16.2channels...


BTW, back in December 2004 , I had a demo of Dolby Digital Plus when I made my visit to Dolby Labs, and made a thread about it (I also talked about a 2nd DD+ enabled X360 SKU with an HD-DVD drive...seems MS is licensing DD+)

http://forum.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=38968


Its a bit technicall, but it explains how dependent and independent streams work with DD+....kewl stuff...

BTW, I should be heading back to Dolby Labs again when I visit my folks in the bay area during Labor Day....I'll see if I can dig up any more stuff concerning HD-DVD and X360:)
 
Finaika said:
1 question I have been thinking is will next-gen games use these new sound format or will they be using normal DD5.1 or DTS?

I hope at least full-bitrate DD5.1 or DTS will be the standard for all games next-gen though, even in gameplay.
Click to expand...

IIRC, in one of those Watch Express co.jp interviews, Jim Kahle of IBM talked about the possibilty of using CELL for Dolby Digital Plus realtime encode.....no need for DD+ encode in realtime unless its for games :D
 
Kleegamefan said:
IIRC, in one of those Watch Express co.jp interview, Jim Kahle of IBM talked about the possibilty of using CELL for Dolby Digital Plus realtime encode.....no need for DD+ encode in realtime unless its for games :D
Click to expand...


But Klee how much better does it sound?
 
I can see it now, next gen HTIB will come in a box the size of a football field. :) I'm diggin' the Top Surround speaker idea.

Now they need to engineer a speaker that sounds excellent and is the size of a quarter, and also works wirelessly.
 
sportzhead said:
I can see it now, next gen HTIB will come in a box the size of a football field. :) I'm diggin' the Top Surround speaker idea.

Now they need to engineer a speaker that sounds excellent and is the size of a quarter, and also works wirelessly.
Click to expand...


We can only hope
 
gah, thanks for reminding me that besides my HDTV I need for next gen, I also need to get a new receiver and speakers! Yay!
 
But when you *do* get that reciever make sure it not only has HDMI ins but a Dolby Digital Plus/dts-HD decoder too...

In case you're wondering, no recievers have been announced to have DD+/dts-HD decoders yet....hopefully the first ones will arrive later this year....

We should get more info at the CEDIA Expo next month...
 
DSD lives on in PS3, which is a multi-channel SACD player, do not forget...

That said, I doubt it will push the format that much...

Blu-ray is a slightly different story....Sony can have HD movie samples on BRD-ROM PS3 games and BRD movies can have PS3 demos on them...I believe this is the plan....


Its amazing how many different formats the PLAYSTATION 3 hardware can play/decode

CD-ROM
CD-R
CD-RW
DVD-ROM
DVD+R
DVD-R
DVD-RW
DVD+RW
BRD-ROM
BRD-R
BRD-RE
VC-1
AVC H.264 High Profile
Dolby Digital
DPL2
Dolby Digital Plus
Dolby Digital Lossles
dts
dts-HD
PCM
SACD
SACD HD
Dual Disk


That is a lot of formats....
 
Ok, now I've read it all.

So I guess I'm gonna need to come up with 10-20k for a TV and Audio setup that will take full advantage of the PS3.
 
bill0527 said:
Ok, now I've read it all.

So I guess I'm gonna need to come up with 10-20k for a TV and Audio setup that will take full advantage of the PS3.
Click to expand...

Probably.....it'll make you want to work harder, though ;)
 
No kidding. Well, I actually think DSD is a pretty damn good idea save for some frequency spectrum issues - and I don't believe it has ever been hacked? - but as secure formats go it's obviously restrictive and requiring a hell of a lot of industry change to make happen.

I really wanted to see how the firewire streaming turned out, though...
 
So, KLee, correct me if I'm wrong.

DD+ and DTS-plus receivers will support S/PDIF connections, but only by doing some kind of downsampling of the native DD+ and DTS-plus streams? Or will the discs just be required to have a regular DD and DTS track for those not having the necessary HDMI-supported audio hardware?

I'd also hope every DD+ and DTS-plus receiver would have to have HDMI switching. The whole only one HDMI-port per HDTV that's prevalent right now is going to suck for people that want more than one HDMI component but aren't enough into Home Theater to have an actual receiver with a swtich.
 
Crazymoogle said:
Wow. So is HDMI handling pretty much blind to the stream type, or would receivers need to be able to handle a DSD stream as well through the HDMI plug?
Click to expand...


So far, the latest version of HDMI can handle digital video as well as Meridan Lossless Packing (DVD Audio) and the current Dolby and dts surround codecs

The next version of HDMI (1.3) will also be able to pass a DD+ and dts-HD audio stream, not to mention the addition of the DSD stream as well as full 1080p 60...

Up till now, the only digital connection allowed to pass a DSD stream has been IEEE 1394/FireWire/iLINK but as I said before, the next-gen HDMI v1.3 will too.....I think the fact there are no firewire outputs on PS3 is biggest clue it will not be limited to HDMI 1.2
 
Kleegamefan said:
So far, the latest version of HDMI can handle digital video as well as Meridan Lossless Packing (DVD Audio) and the current Dolby and dts surround codecs

The next version of HDMI (1.3) will also be able to pass a DD+ and dts-HD audio stream, not to mention the addition of the DSD stream as well as full 1080p 60...

Up till now, the only digital connection allowed to pass a DSD stream has been IEEE 1394/FireWire/iLINK but as I said before, the next-gen HDMI v1.3 will too.....I think the fact there are no firewire outputs on PS3 is biggest clue it will not be limited to HDMI 1.2
Click to expand...

Is 1080p/60 part of HDMI 1.3 or later?

I did read that SI were putting into the spec
 
teiresias said:
So, KLee, correct me if I'm wrong.

DD+ and DTS-plus receivers will support S/PDIF connections, but only by doing some kind of downsampling of the native DD+ and DTS-plus streams? Or will the discs just be required to have a regular DD and DTS track for those not having the necessary HDMI-supported audio hardware?

I'd also hope every DD+ and DTS-plus receiver would have to have HDMI switching. The whole only one HDMI-port per HDTV that's prevalent right now is going to suck for people that want more than one HDMI component but aren't enough into Home Theater to have an actual receiver with a swtich.
Click to expand...


DD+ and dts-HD audio streams can be passed via S/PDIF but these can only be read by a normal Dolby Digital or dts decoder and will be downsampled to 5.1 Dolby Digital/dts...

"Full" DD+/dts-HD can only be passed via HDMI and all future recievers with DD+/dts-HD decoders will have HDMI connectors but not all recievers with HDMI connectors have DD+/dts-HD decoders...
 
teiresias said:
So, KLee, correct me if I'm wrong.

DD+ and DTS-plus receivers will support S/PDIF connections, but only by doing some kind of downsampling of the native DD+ and DTS-plus streams? Or will the discs just be required to have a regular DD and DTS track for those not having the necessary HDMI-supported audio hardware?
Click to expand...

You'd think MLP/DD+ wouldn't be impossible over toslink, since it's still just PCM?

Although, if you are being passed that kind of info anyway I guess it depends on how reluctant the company is to support DVI+HDCP+TOSLINK versus simple HDMI.

Hrm, klee seems to have it figured out.

Anyhow, maybe this sounds conservative but I'd be surprised if any next gen system does next-gen audio encoding. It's just so damn hard to encode on the fly that I'd think standard 5.1 is going to be good enough as it is.
 
Crazymoogle said:
Anyhow, maybe this sounds conservative but I'd be surprised if any next gen system does next-gen audio encoding. It's just so damn hard to encode on the fly that I'd think standard 5.1 is going to be good enough as it is.
Click to expand...

Well, none of the next-gen consoles have dedicated sound processing hardware anyway, but I'd imagine there will be standard libraries for that kind of thing - particularly on the X360 end since people are pretty much expecting it coming from the first Xbox.
 
teiresias said:
Well, none of the next-gen consoles have dedicated sound processing hardware anyway, but I'd imagine there will be standard libraries for that kind of thing - particularly on the X360 end since people are pretty much expecting it coming from the first Xbox.
Click to expand...

The problem isn't the libraries, it's the latency. Even the Xbox had problems in terms of how many channels it could support out of the spec at any one time. Crunching the numbers on DD+ or whatever looks to be that much harder, so I would imagine they try to get 5.1 working properly first.
 
monkeymagic said:
How does MLP fit into all of this - is it part of the DD+ and dts HD spec?
Click to expand...


Meridian Lossless Packing (as used in DVD-Audio) is now 100% property of Dolby and now goes by the name Dolby Digital Lossless.....there have been some minor improvements to MLP in its transistion to Dolby Digital Lossless..

And what are the chances of 7.1 audio in PS3 games?
Click to expand...

Now this is where it gets intresting....not only is there a very good chance of getting 7.1ch audio in PS3 games (Jim Kahle of IBM said CELL can do *realtime* Dolby Digital Plus encoding in an interview during E3.....read between the lines) but it is possible X360 will have this option too...

Consider:

Major Nelson said in that big 2-part interview X360 could support up to 7.1 channel audio in games....that would mean X360 would *have* to do realtime encoding of either DD+ or dts-HD or WMA 7.1......

My first guess was WMA(Microsoft IP) but if they do that, it would also have to be decoded (because hardly any recievers have WMA decoders) and then that audio stream would be sent as analog 7.1....this is very limiting because there is also a small number of recievers with 7.1 analog ins...so WMA 7.1 is probably out...

So that leaves Dolby Digital Plus.....I KNOW FOR A FACT Microsoft is licensing Dolby Digital Plus for use in *some* kind of X360 product because during my Dolby Labs visit in December 2004 my Dolby contact said "Dolby Digital Plus will be used in a version of the Next Generation Xbox".....those were his exact words....

At first I was thinking it would be in a future X360 HD-DVD player but after that major nelson interview I am not so sure...


monkeymagic said:
Is 1080p/60 part of HDMI 1.3 or later?

I did read that SI were putting into the spec
Click to expand...

HDMI 1.2 and newer are dual link.....they can pass 1080p/60 already, but the problem is with the HDMI transmitter/reciever hardware...there are several Silicon Image transmitters/recievers that have enough bandwidth to pass a 1080p/60 signal (the SiI 9030, 9011, 9021, and 9031) but no TVs use these chips yet...

http://www.siimage.com/products/productfamily.aspx?id=1#2
 
Crazymoogle said:
Anyhow, maybe this sounds conservative but I'd be surprised if any next gen system does next-gen audio encoding. It's just so damn hard to encode on the fly that I'd think standard 5.1 is going to be good enough as it is.
Click to expand...


Of course you know CELL (and probably XeCPU too) can decode VC-1 and AVC H.264 HP.....DD+ realtime encode is probably a cakewalk in comparison....besides, Jim Kahle of IBM alread said CELL can do it anyway...

Also, do you remember that E3 CELL demo Phil Harrison presented with the 100s of thousands of leaves???.....he said that "THANKS TO THE POWER OF CELL™" each leaf in the demo could have its own sound channel....I would think DD+ realtime encode wouldn't be a problem...

And again, both Jim Kahle of IBM and Major Nelson of MicroSoft said PS3/X360 can do in game 7.1ch audio(though I doubt every game, or even a majority of games will be able to do this)....

Bring it on, I say...
 
Kleegamefan said:
Do you not notice all the PLAYSTATION 3 and X360 discussion in this thread??
Click to expand...
Well. Yeah. But. Well. Ok. My bad. :)

I really wonder how this new sound is going to sound like. Like, 5.1 is amazing already.
 
Kleegamefan said:
Of course you know CELL (and probably XeCPU too) can decode VC-1 and AVC H.264 HP.....DD+ realtime encode is probably a cakewalk in comparison....besides, Jim Kahle of IBM alread said CELL can do it anyway...
Click to expand...

That it can do it is one thing. Hell, PS2 CPU can probably encode 5.1 if it wanted. The problem is this isn't locked down hardware so every DD+ implementation is going to have to run head first into whatever processing the rest of the game requires - usually the graphics being the trump card.

I think it might be more of a long term issue than a short term one - early on dev is having a hard enough time running multicore architectures at full speed anyway - but when it finally comes down to running an intensive encoding scheme versus boosting the fill rate, which one gets axed? (and I'm ignoring other memory bandwidth and storage issues)

Yeah I'm being boring skeptical but I can't help but think we'll see 1080p more often than DD+.
 
monkeymagic said:
It's also where it gets very confusing :D
Click to expand...


Yeah, I am confused too...

On one hand, the way it was explained to me:



A) DD+ going over S/PDIF=downsample to Dolby Digital 5.1 in reciever

and

B)DD+ going over HDMI=Full Dolby Digital Plus if reciever has DD+ decoder...




So *if* major nelson is correct in saying "in game 7.1 audio" in X360, that *must* mean either dts-HD or DD+ realtime encode since there is no evidence of widespread odoption of WMA decoders in recievers anytime soon..

BUT

X360 doesnt have HDMI outs so does that mean:


1)7.1 audio will be limited to the HD-DVD version of X360?

2)WMA 7.1 decoders will be a standard of all future recievers?

3)Full DD+/dts-HD can be passed via S/PDIF??

I wish I could read these two slides:

aes10.jpg



dolby07.jpg
 
Yeah...thats what I think too...

So waddya think?....perhaps we will be seeing WMA 7.1 decoders in alot of recievers in the future?


I know some of the Pioneer Elites and Onkyo recievers have WMA decoders already but thats it....
 
Kleegamefan said:
Yeah...thats what I think too...
So waddya think?....perhaps we will be seeing WMA 7.1 decoders in alot of recievers in the future?
Click to expand...

If I had to guess? Probably no? I just haven't heard anything in the way of WMA movement these days.
 
Crazymoogle said:
That it can do it is one thing. Hell, PS2 CPU can probably encode 5.1 if it wanted. The problem is this isn't locked down hardware so every DD+ implementation is going to have to run head first into whatever processing the rest of the game requires - usually the graphics being the trump card.

I think it might be more of a long term issue than a short term one - early on dev is having a hard enough time running multicore architectures at full speed anyway - but when it finally comes down to running an intensive encoding scheme versus boosting the fill rate, which one gets axed? (and I'm ignoring other memory bandwidth and storage issues)

Yeah I'm being boring skeptical but I can't help but think we'll see 1080p more often than DD+.
Click to expand...


Oh F'Sho....I agree with you 100%...I don't think you will see DD+ encode in all PS3 games at first....prolly a very small percentage even if the sound APIs are ready in time and we haven't seen any announcements of them yet...

So the magic question is;just how much power is required to do realtime DD+ encode......I would guess its prolly a fair amount, but then again CELL has processing power up the yingyang so who knows...
 
Kleegamefan said:
Yeah, I am confused too...

X360 doesnt have HDMI outs so does that mean:

1)7.1 audio will be limited to the HD-DVD version of X360?

2)WMA 7.1 decoders will be a standard of all future recievers?

3)Full DD+/dts-HD can be passed via S/PDIF??
Click to expand...

Yes, this is the contentious point.

PS3 by virtue of its support for the Blu-Ray movie spec has the necessary hardware/software to pass 7.1 DD+/DTS HD over HDMI but with X360 it isn't so clear.

I think point 1 is more than likely as I don't see WMA becoming a standard in receivers nor would I expect S/PDIF to have the available bandwdith to carry DD+/DTS HD.
 
BTW...here is the exact quote:

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/xbox360_inside.asp


Paul: So Sony's 1080p claim is just...

Jeff: Marketure. Let's sit down and look at a 1080p game on a 1080p console on a 1080p television as soon as those things are all there. I'm eager to see it. We can all guess as to what year that might be.

Hi-def to us means more than just the graphics resolutions we've been talking about though. It also means how people hear the game. On Xbox 360, every single game will support Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound at a minimum. Many games will go higher than that, will use 1080i graphics and 7.1 channel surround sound. But 720p and 5.1 channel surround sound are the minimal hi-def visual and audio aspects of Xbox 360. So hi-def is really that first key pillar for us.
Click to expand...

So if this is not Microsoft Marketure :D that would leave 3 viable options:


WMA 7.1 realtime encode

Dolby Digital Plus realtime encode

dts-HD realtime encode


Any bets on which one it is?
 
KLee,

That quote is a bit confusing ... it doesn't look like he's implying high-res audio at all, just more channels (7)? DD EX, DTS ES?
 
My guess is you are reading too much into his statements. He probably meant DD EX and/or DTS ES
Click to expand...
Except neither DD EX no dts ES is 7.1 surround sound..


KLee,

That quote is a bit confusion ... it doesn't look like he's implying high-res audio at all, just more channels (7)?
Click to expand...

But by saying 7.1 channel audio, you are implying either WMA or DD+ or dts-HD

dts=5.1 discrete surround

Dolby Digital=5.1 discrete surround

Dolby Digital EX=5.1 discrete surround+matrixed surround back channel

dts ES=6.1 discrete surround

None of these are true 7.1 surround....only WMA/DD+/dts-HD have that distinction...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

  • Poll
Sony Will Be In For A Shock Next Gen
3 4 5 6 7
348
3K
MatrixReloaded101 replied
What silicon feature do you want for next gen?
8
204
analog_future replied
Microsoft reportedly orders 50 million magnus chips from AMD for Next Gen Xbox!!
2 3
107
1K
digital_ghost replied
WCCFTech - NVIDIA Reportedly The First & Only Customer For TSMC’s Bleeding-Edge A16 Process Node, Utilizing For Next-Gen GPUs
20
398
asdasdasdbb replied
Push Square: PS6 Could Be the Only Next-Gen Console Charging for Online Multiplayer
2 3
131
1K
Facism replied
Top Bottom