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AusGAF 7 - We hang out IRL now and be social and shit. (Also, Adrian's Revenge)

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Also, the freedom of expression process is amazing for a lot of companies. I saw a video of what happened at Bethesda when they got given a week to add anything they wanted into Skyrim, and they added mounted combat, spears, huge bosses, interesting spells and stuff that would've been amazing to have in the released game.
Amnesia Fortnight at Double Fine is the sort of thing all developers need to have at the end of a release/crunch. Give people freedom to make something they're passionate about, nurture that and see it through to release and you'll end up with some great games, cheap, but also happy developers.
 

Danoss

Member
It'll stop happening the minute people cease being a slave to them. That'll never happen though, it's like Stockholm Syndrome at this point.
 

Jintor

Member
If you think about it from a jurisprudence standpoint region-locking actually makes a fair amount of sense. Given that sale of items between regions is governed differently across jurisdictions - and can be governed incredibly differently across jurisdictions - separating out sales based on region is a fairly logical position to take. Where this runs into problems is the fact that everybody can instantaneously know how people on the other side of the world are being treated [price differentials, content differentials], and that the benefits of globalisation are enjoyed by multinationals but not necessarily passed on to the consumer. Jurisdiction is also enforced unevenly; I'm still unsure if point-of-sale on digital distribution occurs outside the country or not, or where, or even if it should be linked to a geographical nexus at all.

Unfortunately my media law unit seems more concerned with freedom of expression right now than consumer rights, so we'll wait and see how that turns out.
 

Stackboy

Member
Just realized I can download a version of Indie Game: The Movie which has the Super Meat Boy commentary, that isn't the Steam Version.

Comfy couch viewing ahoy!
 

Dead Man

Member
If you think about it from a jurisprudence standpoint region-locking actually makes a fair amount of sense. Given that sale of items between regions is governed differently across jurisdictions - and can be governed incredibly differently across jurisdictions - separating out sales based on region is a fairly logical position to take. Where this runs into problems is the fact that everybody can instantaneously know how people on the other side of the world are being treated [price differentials, content differentials], and that the benefits of globalisation are enjoyed by multinationals but not necessarily passed on to the consumer. Jurisdiction is also enforced unevenly; I'm still unsure if point-of-sale on digital distribution occurs outside the country or not, or where, or even if it should be linked to a geographical nexus at all.

Unfortunately my media law unit seems more concerned with freedom of expression right now than consumer rights, so we'll wait and see how that turns out.

If they were region locking for logistical reason it would be understandable, Germany has had that issue with games for ages, as have we. But when it is the identical game released and they are locking for financial reasons only I have fuck all sympathy for their position.
 

Omikron

Member
If they were region locking for logistical reason it would be understandable, Germany has had that issue with games for ages, as have we. But when it is the identical game released and they are locking for financial reasons only I have fuck all sympathy for their position.

I think everyone will agree there, one global price should be set. But I can bet if that does happen it will be the higher of all the prices, not the lowest.


But so many ill informed people in the Valve banning people thread re gifting.

Gifting from an overseas person = fine for both parties.
Using VPN to buy cheaper = bad and could result in a ban.
 

Raxum

Member
Amnesia Fortnight at Double Fine is the sort of thing all developers need to have at the end of a release/crunch. Give people freedom to make something they're passionate about, nurture that and see it through to release and you'll end up with some great games, cheap, but also happy developers.

Definitely agreed, however I think they should hold those times well before release, to get an idea of what some of the devs would like to see in the game, especially if the devs are gamers themselves, it might help them make a better game all around. More on skyrim again, I know I was personally disappointed with how the combat and horses came out of the game, horses felt clunky and not really that much faster, and you still couldn't fight on them, and the combat felt slow and tanky, where I tend to prefer dodging and weaving and such. personal preference I know, but I saw the devs fix my problems with horses in the teaser video for their week spent working on what they wanted after release, and I wondered why they couldn't have waited an extra week to release and added all those features.

I get the feeling consumer law doesn't exist in this world. Seems like the publishers are worse than pirates now :(

While in some cases I agree, I also think that there are a fair numbers of times that issues are blown completely out of proportion by misinformation and by loud minorities. That steam thread has a fair few people complaining that they won't be able to gift their friends anymore, when in fact that's not what's happening. People don't read, or only read what they want to read and things all end up in confusion because they spread what they've 'read'. If I knew more about the law side of things I could talk about that, but all I know is that the people using VPNs to purchase games to gift themselves are breaking the steam TOS. Technically Valve has every right to ban them from the service for doing so.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I'm really not fussed with Valve disallowing VPN usage for international store access. I think, as service providers, they're within their right to do that. What I feel is the real problem is the allowance of regional price gouging. VPN usage was born of a consumer necessity to avoid a dicking from publishers hiking the price for no reason. While that problem exists people will gravitate towards gifting and VPN, if they're the only alternatives. Solve the pricing problem and the VPN problem too is solved.

But yes, the problem doesn't seem to be gifting, but VPN usage and VPN 'accounts'.
 

Danoss

Member
It's funny that there is a thought process of "fuck you, we'll ban your shit for buying this item at a cheaper price" in place of "thank you for buying our product when you could have easily pirated it".
 

Omikron

Member
I'm really not fussed with Valve disallowing VPN usage for international store access. I think, as service providers, they're within their right to do that. What I feel is the real problem is the allowance of regional price gouging. VPN usage was born of a consumer necessity to avoid a dicking from publishers hiking the price for no reason. While that problem exists people will gravitate towards gifting and VPN, if they're the only alternatives. Solve the pricing problem and the VPN problem too is solved.

But yes, the problem doesn't seem to be gifting, but VPN usage and VPN 'accounts'.

Absolutely and to Valve's credit, their games are not and have never been price gouged on steam.
 

Fredescu

Member
I doubt anyone would be banned for even using a VPN to get US prices. It's mostly people loading up an account with games bought at Russian prices and reselling them. I guess people could be annoyed that we don't buy games at Russian prices, but I think in Russia it's either sell your games for super cheap or sell nothing at all because piracy is the norm.
 

Omikron

Member
I doubt anyone would be banned for even using a VPN to get US prices. It's mostly people loading up an account with games bought at Russian prices and reselling them. I guess people could be annoyed that we don't buy games at Russian prices, but I think in Russia it's either sell your games for super cheap or sell nothing at all because piracy is the norm.

I have used a VPN to unlock games early!

I am going to get banned, right?
 
They tend to ban VPN usage really fast, like within a few days. Unless it is a mandate from a publisher, like with the MW2 thing. I got RAGE through a VPN seller, no issue here, although the process was a little weird and I would prefer to avoid doing that again. Pretty sure the key was a Euro key, not a Russian one though.

Upon reading more of the thread, it seems that this is the case. Valve seems to be cracking down on the VPN thing and it seems that a few people who gift a LOT of games to other countries got a few restrictions on them during sales and stuff because they got mistaken for VPN accounts or something.
Pretty sure they got a hold on buying games because of the sheer amount of gifting they did, so Steam were worried their account got stolen and the bad guys were using the account to rack up huge amounts of charges. The resulting chargeback process costs Steam money so they try and avoid any instance of fraud. Usually guys like Wilflare will get their buying access back within a few hours, sometimes up to a day. I can't recall if he has had any issues lately though since I would expect Steam would be well aware of him by now (considering his account name and profile page is slathered with the fact that he can help people out with gifting).

The fact that he is still able to help us all out shows that Steam don't really give too much of a shit about using gifting to get around the regional pricing (or stuff like the LOW VIOLENCE version of L4D2). I expect that the publishers haven't kicked up enough of a stink to Steam yet, as they would be the ones who are losing out on part of their sales margain.
 
The VPN gets you a ban thing has been around for ages though, it is just Valve bashing month on GAF. :D

Surprised that Blizzard aren't getting more of a pasting with that thread today about a guy being blocked from playing SP Diablo 3 because someone may have hacked his account, maybe, with Blizzard not giving any details other than the account apparently used a 3rd party program. Apparently.

Valve customer service isn't fantastic but they have at least progressed to explaining their decisions a lot more.
 

markot

Banned
Yeah, they only go after people who 'ruin' the whole system. The point is they want to sell games in Russia at prices that are affordable there.

Its either ban them, or make the Russians suffer >.<

They dont go after gifting either.

Its when you essentially take advantage of a country being po in a rich one that its a little silly.

Alot of the bashers seem to be pretty nuts too >.> 'consumers cant take advantage of globalisation but they can?!'

Also valve sell their shit in Australian for USD, so they get a free cookie from me.

Blizz sucks. No Australian servers for any of their shit. Fuck em! Even EA give us that.
 
It's kind of sad that i like the obscure olympic sports such as handball and it never gets any coverage.

Most of the sports being shown on FTA hold no interest for me (swimming, diving- apart from the back flop, sailing, cycling, marathons) basically anything Australia is good at.
 

Raxum

Member
I gotta admit the whole globalization thing really hasn't gone very well. We should just move to a universal currency and keep moving from there. But I hate getting into financial stuff because it gets too complicated with all the politics and such, so I realise it would probably be difficult to create a global currency.

Anyway, Valve really haven't changed their stance much here, and I honestly can't see a problem with things from their end. The main problem is publishers like EA and Acti-blizz who charge Australia(and obviously other countries) larger amounts than other countries. Price-gouging is pretty shameful, but the brick-and-mortar stores seem to be the ones pushing that because they don't want to be undercut by DD services. All in all, we're pretty fucked and I don't see the situation changing much into the future unless Australia becomes a bigger marketplace, on par with the US, Europe and Asia. Last I checked, we were still a tiny margin of the worldwide marketplace, somewhere in the area of 1-5%. Hell, sometimes we don't get certain games published over here, or if we do it's well after the game has died.
 

Frawdder

Member
Soundwave lineup looks ok so far. Few bands I would like to see, especially A Perfect Circle. I just hope the Clipsal 500 doesn't end up being on the same weekend for Adelaide.
 

Rezbit

Member
It's kind of sad that i like the obscure olympic sports such as handball and it never gets any coverage.

Most of the sports being shown on FTA hold no interest for me (swimming, diving- apart from the back flop, sailing, cycling, marathons) basically anything Australia is good at.

9 have been absolutely ridiculous with their coverage. Saw 15 minutes of handball last night which is all I've seen.

I like the cycling though, was stoked to see Anna Meares win :D
 
Each global market needs to be treated as local markets, people can't just expect that because India or Russia has to price games at $1USD to get anyone to buy them that we should also only pay $1USD for Borderlands 2.




Whippersnippers ain't got nothing on hedgetrimmers!!!
 
Whippersnippers are the devils grass cutters >.> there's a dude who likes to use his right outside my window on Sunday mornings, and follow it up by using his leaf blower to blow the grass cuttings off the grass.
some ppl don't think table tennis should be an Olympic sport ;_____;
But table tennis is great! I went to see it in Sydney, along with badminton, tkd and the athletics ><
METAL LICKER! GET IT?!
Lol, this combined with your avatar is pretty hilarious.

I'm mostly excited for the awesome 90's pop-punk tag team that is sum-blink-offspring. :p Metallica and linkin park would be good to see too, plus paramore and some of the less big bands. Overall a very strong lineup, imo *nods*
 

Lucian Cat

Kissed a mod for a tag; liked it
Soundwave lineup looks ok so far. Few bands I would like to see, especially A Perfect Circle. I just hope the Clipsal 500 doesn't end up being on the same weekend for Adelaide.
That would kinda suck :/ didn't that happen this year? Or am I dreaming
 
Each global market needs to be treated as local markets, people can't just expect that because India or Russia has to price games at $1USD to get anyone to buy them that we should also only pay $1USD for Borderlands 2.

Have to disagree. They need to pick a currency (USD/euro whatever) and set a worldwide price. I am so sick of getting over charged on "digital content".

I want Australia to beat America in the basketball tomorrow for shitstorm reasons.

It just, It has to happen.

It would be epic. We beat russia, that was a big enough upset.
 

jambo

Member
Soundwave lineup looks ok so far. Few bands I would like to see, especially A Perfect Circle. I just hope the Clipsal 500 doesn't end up being on the same weekend for Adelaide.

I heard something about moving those events around so they won't run over each other again.
 

Waikis

Member
If you think about it from a jurisprudence standpoint region-locking actually makes a fair amount of sense. Given that sale of items between regions is governed differently across jurisdictions - and can be governed incredibly differently across jurisdictions - separating out sales based on region is a fairly logical position to take. Where this runs into problems is the fact that everybody can instantaneously know how people on the other side of the world are being treated [price differentials, content differentials], and that the benefits of globalisation are enjoyed by multinationals but not necessarily passed on to the consumer. Jurisdiction is also enforced unevenly; I'm still unsure if point-of-sale on digital distribution occurs outside the country or not, or where, or even if it should be linked to a geographical nexus at all.

Unfortunately my media law unit seems more concerned with freedom of expression right now than consumer rights, so we'll wait and see how that turns out.

If it's anything like my media law subject, it would be more concerned with open justice, contempt of court and defamation.
 

Dead Man

Member
Waleed Aly drops bombs.
http://www.themonthly.com.au/comment-australian-solution-waleed-aly-5858
The current debate presumes there is no less brutal way to stop people smuggling, and thus prevent the loss of life at sea. But this is not true. We could, for instance, significantly increase our refugee intake from Indonesia. Many people who get on boats have already joined a queue, been processed by the UNHCR and been assessed as refugees. What they haven’t been is resettled. Indonesia harbours a large backlog of people going nowhere – around 10,000 of them.

So far this year we’ve resettled around 60 refugees from Indonesia directly. If the annual figure were, say, 6000 (which would doubtless help Australia achieve more meaningful co-operation with Indonesia on surveillance, processing and policing), the number of boats would decrease rapidly and no one would need to be mentally destroyed in the process. More asylum seekers might pour into Indonesia, but their prospects within the queue would no longer be hopeless; they would surely be less likely to risk their lives on leaky boats.

After all, we could absorb several times that annual number with barely a blip. We could make the humanitarian intake 100,000 if necessary, and we’d cope just fine. This would do more than break what the government likes to call “the people smugglers’ business model”. It would take away their clients altogether.

This will not happen. Not because it wouldn’t work, but because it wouldn’t work in the way we want. For all the gnashing of teeth and demonstrative compassion, our politicians have greater concerns than the lost lives of a few hundred asylum seekers. They have political equations to balance and shibboleths to repeat.

This is true even of the Greens, whose position is most explicitly about the rights of asylum seekers. One of the more intriguing manoeuvres of the last parliamentary sitting week before the winter recess was the Coalition’s offer to increase the refugee intake by 6000 to 20,000 per year and limit processing times to 12 months. This responded to the problem directly and reflected much of the Greens’ own policy, but it came with a catch: offshore processing in Nauru – an unthinkable backdown for the Greens’ constituency. Consequently, Australia continues to process and detain asylum seekers onshore – which, let us remember, remains brutalising – at the expense of thousands more people who continue to languish, and unknown others who will perish at sea. Apparently, asylum seekers’ human rights must be protected, even if it kills them.
 
Lets just make Tasmania a refugee refuge! Pretty sweet down there and the majority of racists won't get riled up!

Have to disagree. They need to pick a currency (USD/euro whatever) and set a worldwide price. I am so sick of getting over charged on "digital content".
In that case you basically cut out large parts of people who want to play games then. Effectively taking the industry backwards rather than bringing emerging markets into the fold.
Sure I would love to pay bottom dollar for all my purchases but at the same time it would be nice if more and more people have the chance to experience the same things that I do.
 

Dead Man

Member
In that case you basically cut out large parts of people who want to play games then. Effectively taking the industry backwards rather than bringing emerging markets into the fold.
Sure I would love to pay bottom dollar for all my purchases but at the same time it would be nice if more and more people have the chance to experience the same things that I do.

I would have more time for that argument if all first world economies were charged similarly. When the US and Australia get such different prices, that argument holds no water.
 

Jintor

Member
If it's anything like my media law subject, it would be more concerned with open justice, contempt of court and defamation.

Sounds about right. Maybe my IP law subject... but probably only incidentally.


I would have more time for that argument if all first world economies were charged similarly. When the US and Australia get such different prices, that argument holds no water.

If a company sees an opportunity to gouge, it'll gouge until it can't gouge no more. No profit-motivated company would do otherwise.
 
I would have more time for that argument if all first world economies were charged similarly. When the US and Australia get such different prices, that argument holds no water.

Hey, I'm not saying the system isn't being abused. I'm just saying don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because some people are pissing in there while they wash.

Educating the masses to bullshit abuse would help, although it is hard to get the message out with so much bombardment into peoples minds already.

Thank the lord for GMG and other solutions to bullshit pricing by certain publishers on Steam.
 
Does anyone know anything about bet365 (the ad with Samuel L Jackson) that talks about streaming events?

Anyone know what events it covers and how you get it, website is giving me nothing?
 

Raxum

Member
Hey, I'm not saying the system isn't being abused. I'm just saying don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because some people are pissing in there while they wash.

Educating the masses to bullshit abuse would help, although it is hard to get the message out with so much bombardment into peoples minds already.

Thank the lord for GMG and other solutions to bullshit pricing by certain publishers on Steam.

I know I generally take those options where I can, and certainly the steam sales help occasionally, but I think the price-gouging companies will keep gouging Australia until we take a stand and don't buy games until they are the same price as we'd get them from the US. Either that, or maybe if someone managed to sue them or find something illegal in what they are doing, price-fixing maybe? I'm not up on law enough to know what could be done about it.
 

Jintor

Member
Price-fixing would imply they have a hold over the entire market, they just happen to have the most convenient aspect of it.

One of the problems I have with consumer rights as a whole is that, generally speaking, the only form of consumer rights tends to crystallise with regards to buying power, and when you buy something you can't add to the receipt "Well, but while I give you this money I protest x, y, and z". If you hand over your money, that's the only language corporations really understand, and it's an almost completely binary persuasionary function. Publicity, everything else, it's only important insofar as it affects buying power. So the other method would be for a company to lower prices in the region and see a subsequent upswing in sales and overall profits, but who knows if that would even happen.
 
If you hand over your money, that's the only language corporations really understand, and it's an almost completely binary persuasionary function.

Publicity, everything else, it's only important insofar as it affects buying power.

So the other method would be for a company to lower prices in the region and see a subsequent upswing in sales and overall profits, but who knows if that would even happen.
Yeah which is kind of how a few companies like Valve and CD Projekt have combated piracy, they could see how changing their pricing or the contents of the product they are selling will change the amount of people willing to pay for the product. Both have had great success stories in their respective efforts but it is incredibly hard to expand that scope into something like a whole retail industry and have the same amount of success. While publishers are continuing to make profits in certain ways, with such a multifaceted business approach with multiple platforms and multiple ways to 'exploit' money out of consumers, it will be hard for them to point at certain things as affecting the buying power.

Crying out for PC ports and then not buying them because of shit like GFWL, which results in the publisher only thinking that there is no market for PC gamers is an old example of how hard it is for people to get through to corporations on how they can best make their money.
 

Lucian Cat

Kissed a mod for a tag; liked it
Yeah, that happened this year.


It just sucks that everyone wants their event on the same day/weekend/week in this state and no one is willing to budge.

Don't we also have the fringe festival going on at the same time? It's too much for our tiny city!
 

Raxum

Member
Yeah which is kind of how a few companies like Valve and CD Projekt have combated piracy, they could see how changing their pricing or the contents of the product they are selling will change the amount of people willing to pay for the product. Both have had great success stories in their respective efforts but it is incredibly hard to expand that scope into something like a whole retail industry and have the same amount of success. While publishers are continuing to make profits in certain ways, with such a multifaceted business approach with multiple platforms and multiple ways to 'exploit' money out of consumers, it will be hard for them to point at certain things as affecting the buying power.

Crying out for PC ports and then not buying them because of shit like GFWL, which results in the publisher only thinking that there is no market for PC gamers is an old example of how hard it is for people to get through to corporations on how they can best make their money.

That's one of the major problems at the moment, the corporations are too far removed from their userbase, which doesn't need to be the case in this age. Things like forums for games, email, internet reviews and such all have the ability to reach publishers and devs alike, but for some reason pubs seem to attribute bad sales to a bad game or piracy, it's never the fault of the DRM or their decisions or anything remotely attached to the pub. It's the dev or the consumer.

That said, you can't really please everyone, someone will always have some complaint about something, but still, protesting prices by not buying games would only cause dev studios to shut and gaming stores to go out of business. Especially if it happened for the span of time it would need to for pubs and devs to notice it. Even then, an australian exodus from buying games would just make the gaming market shrug and then claim there was no gaming market here. Too small a market, even though we seem to have a reasonably strong economy.
 
That's one of the major problems at the moment, the corporations are too far removed from their userbase, which doesn't need to be the case in this age. Things like forums for games, email, internet reviews and such all have the ability to reach publishers and devs alike, but for some reason pubs seem to attribute bad sales to a bad game or piracy, it's never the fault of the DRM or their decisions or anything remotely attached to the pub. It's the dev or the consumer.
I think it comes from being 'burned' in the past from listening to small vocal groups (such as GAF) where they end up losing a fuckload of money doing something they thought would catch fire and sell well. Rather than identify why it didn't work and re-iterate the process so it is more likely to succeed next time they just call it a failure and take a different tactic that they think is safer, like nickel-and-dime DLC.
 

jambo

Member
Bogans and hippies unite!

KN5Lm.jpg
 
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