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AusPoliGaf |Early 2016 Election| - the government's term has been... Shortened

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There are those that would argue that this concentration of wealth is anything but natural.

But it is. Money is power and the most fundamental use of power is the acquisition of more power. That's going to happen in the absence of intervention to avert it. The only real counter is the (almost) perfectly informed and rational reaction from everyone else (and history indicates people either don't know , don't care or are willing to jump on coattails for scraps).
 
Katter saying, not that there was doubt, that he will offer supply and confidence to the Coalition in the event of a hung parliament.
 
What is it Nationals/Katter saying thousands of millions instead of billions? Some weird way to emphasise that it is quite a lot of money?
 

Fredescu

Member
Yeah, the broadly accepted one now is the American one, so I guess some old school British (and by extension, old school Australian) folk might still use the old version.
 
Well isn't there two different kinds of bilions? 1,000,000,000 vs 1,000,000,000,000.

Good point, the English used to call a trillion a billion though they standardised it at somepoint 70s/80s? with the USA and us. The Nationals are still in the 50s so would make sense.
 

Quasar

Member
Comfort yourself with the thought of Turnbull having a knife over his head and the Senate shenanigans. This will probably be the least productive Parliament in our history.

Well if the government new how to negotiate they could be fine. Its like politicians have forgotten how the house is support to work.
 

Arksy

Member
Are you one of those? What naturally prevents it?

Somewhat, disparate wealth accumulation is natural, but the scale of the recent phenomenon has been exacerbated by crony capitalism. People who make poor business decisions should not be rewarded for those decisions with taxpayer bailouts, effectively shielding them from any risk. That's not to say it's the only culprit, you can't ignore globalisation as being a big factor as well.

I'm not that worried about relative wealth, as long as absolute wealth increases in due course, which it has in some countries, hasn't in others.
 

Quasar

Member
Good point, the English used to call a trillion a billion though they standardised it at somepoint 70s/80s? with the USA and us. The Nationals are still in the 50s so would make sense.

I actually thought we still used the english definition. I certainly remember being taught the 'American Billion' as a separate lesser thing.
 

Arksy

Member
I actually thought we still used the english definition. I certainly remember being taught the 'American Billion' as a separate lesser thing.

English speaking countries overwhelmingly use short scale these days. Thousand million = billion.
 
Somewhat, disparate wealth accumulation is natural, but the scale of the recent phenomenon has been exacerbated by crony capitalism. People who make poor business decisions should not be rewarded for those decisions with taxpayer bailouts, effectively shielding them from any risk. That's not to say it's the only culprit, you can't ignore globalisation as being a big factor as well.

I'm not that worried about relative wealth, as long as absolute wealth increases in due course, which it has in some countries, hasn't in others.

But purchasing power is determined by relative wealth. At least partially, the ability to control the media and public discussion is anyway. For necessities it seems to be less true as the upper end of the market prefer bizarre vanities like gold dust hamburgers , gold plated yachts and homes big enough for my extended family to the 4th degree of kinship rather than strangling the market. Though property is starting to fall into that ditch.
 

Fredescu

Member
Somewhat, disparate wealth accumulation is natural, but the scale of the recent phenomenon has been exacerbated by crony capitalism.

My argument at least in part is that crony capitalism is a natural occurrence. The organisations set up to regulate the market don't make enough money on their own to consistently turn down the temptation of bribery. What prevents that from happening, while still having a functioning "agile" "pro-market" regulator?
 

choodi

Banned
Uh oh, ABC 24 just showed Xenophon making comments that he twice said were off the record regarding ethanol and Katter?

While it is pretty poor form by the ABC, there is no such thing as 'off the record'.

Whenever I do media training at work, I always try to reinforce this. Anything you say to, or in front of, the media is useable by the media. 'Off the record' only works when you have an understanding with that journalist/media outlet.

Same thing applies for embargoes. Media organisations generally don't break them because that usually means a black mark against their name and no chance they will be given information in advance again in the future.
 
Bob Katter said:
"We have spoken with the top people in the country and they have advised us that the ALP will not be able to form government," he told reporters.

"We do not want to go back to the polls, that should not be imposed upon the Australian people.

"So today we are announcing our support by supply and confidence for a Turnbull government."

But he said he maintained the right to "move at any point in time in another direction".

"If there is the slightest hint of union bashing, and I can assure you all bets are off," he said.

The Coalition better hope they make 76 as I sense a whole lot of union bashing on the agenda. 76 is probably assured now maybe even 77. 78 would rely on Cowan or Flynn also falling back, both seem very unlikely atm.
 
The Coalition better hope they make 76 as I sense a whole lot of union bashing on the agenda. 76 is probably assured now maybe even 77. 78 would rely on Cowan or Flynn also falling back, both seem very unlikely atm.

I'm actually a bit puzzled as to how union bashing would go in the Senate. I mean my instinctual read is straight into a bin because I don't think either NXT or One Nation will back it but I haven't checked their history on it.
 
LNP getting more confident of a win in Herbert.

LNP ahead by 8 votes in Hindmarsh with more postals to come but very concerned that absentees will put the seat firmly back on the Labor side.
 

xevis

Banned
Nobody is suggesting the elimination of all regulation. Also the whole idea behind capitalism is that self-interest will make everyone better off. Obviously we need help for the bottom, but the trend over the last 40 years has been the removal of barriers to growth with the maintenance of a healthy welfare state. And the best performing states have been the ones that have undertaken 'neoliberal' reforms the most.

Neoliberal economics taken to the extreme are bullshit. Look no further than the US with its raging hard-on for small government, small taxes and little regulation. Look at their stagnant wage growth and massive inequality. Look at their hugely expensive yet woefully under-performing system of public health. Look at the performance of students in their public education system. Ugh. It's horrible.

For all the things America has achieved with its neoliberal ideology a fair and equitable society for all its people isn't one of them. I'll take higher taxes, higher regulation and our "welfare state" any day.
 

Arksy

Member
My argument at least in part is that crony capitalism is a natural occurrence. The organisations set up to regulate the market don't make enough money on their own to consistently turn down the temptation of bribery. What prevents that from happening, while still having a functioning "agile" "pro-market" regulator?

Democracy.
 

Shaneus

Member
Comfort yourself with the thought of Turnbull having a knife over his head and the Senate shenanigans. This will probably be the least productive Parliament in our history.
Even less productive than the last three years? I'm just hoping there's some way another DD could be called (not that I'm politically aware enough to know the likelihood of such a case) within the next year or so.

Really can't believe that after all this, the guy who gave that pissweak speech at 12:30am last Sunday (and his woeful party) is going to be our PM, even if only for a short time. Lack of movement on the dozens of policies that could move us forward as a nation are going to hold us back even further... NBN, renewable energy, that fucking plebiscite, innovation, arts, negative gearing... my heart sinks just thinking about it.


Right now I'd kill for another election.
 

Fredescu

Member
Democracy.

Money speaks the loudest in a democracy though. And democracy is bad at expressing problems with specific issues, like maybe a particular regulation was bought and paid for that will allow someone to amass wealth over time. That's not going to be an election issue. Democracy really just changes the bribe recipients.
 

darkace

Banned
Yeah and I'm not necessarily opposed to company tax cuts like I would be for comparable income tax cuts - intuitively they make more sense (although having said that they've been a disaster in places like Kansas - but that's at the extreme end). Personally it's a cost benefit analysis - is it the best way to spend our money? And I think it says something about priorities and their vision for Australia - but I admit that's pretty wishy washy.
No the best way would be on a FTTP NBN, followed by further infrastructure building in capital cities. But this is still a net positive.
This assumes that the tax money disappears , which it usually doesn't , its generally spent on things that encourage growth: education , health and infrastructure. Well educated , healthy workers are more productive and good transit and communication paths are generally at least as good for business as they are the public.
The market will underinvest in some areas, education, healthcare, welfare and infrastructure, to name a few. It will also underregulate in some markets, energy, banking, general antitrust. But that doesn't mean that, on balance, that our country isn't both overregulated, over-taxed, and with government spending that is too high.
You're argument is more against running unnecessarily large surpluses and I don't think anyone anywhere thinks those are a good idea.
Nah we can run moderate deficits forever.
But accepting that flawed premise, then you must concede that sacrificing some amount of growth is important for society and good governance as an, ahem, truism. So we're back to what necessity and nuance mean.
We see diminishing marginal returns on healthcare spending. We also are seeing increased spending for no increase in patient outcomes. This is partly attributable to increased longevity in Australian citizens, but it's also partly misattributed funds, useless expenditure and other non-necessities that burden taxpayers for no reason.
Heavy qualification. Meaning heavy regulation. Meaning an oversight body with teeth. I don't know how such a body can exist alongside the kinds of wealth concentration that we see as a natural part of the system.
I'd be ok with an estate tax of 50-60%, in addition to a federal ICAC, strong anti-trust regulation, etc.

Pro-market doesn't always mean pro-business, rent seeking is real and it's damaging to everybody except those who extract rent.

One of the best examples is land banking, which pushes up housing prices in return for almost no productive investment. The fix for this is a land-value tax and a reduction in the top marginal income tax combined with removing deductions.
Presumably you'd agree there would be a point where not enough tax also inhibits growth.
Of course.

Even if you just burnt the money from a carbon tax, sugar tax, cigarette tax and possibly a land-value tax, you'd still see more sustainable long-term growth than if they didn't exist.
Neoliberal economics taken to the extreme are bullshit. Look no further than the US with its raging hard-on for small government, small taxes and little regulation. Look at their stagnant wage growth and massive inequality. Look at their hugely expensive yet woefully under-performing system of public health. Look at the performance of students in their public education system. Ugh. It's horrible.

For all the things America has achieved with its neoliberal ideology a fair and equitable society for all its people isn't one of them. I'll take higher taxes, higher regulation and our "welfare state" any day.
The US actually does pretty well. And their wages aren't stagnant, it's a myth. For more neo-liberal shill information, try this:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2010/Sumnerneoliberalism.html
 
When has that ever occurred in a democratic state?

The Great Depression in the US was what it took for the New Deal. Representatives are loath to act against money until the problem threatens the system.

It took Enron and the GFC to suggest that maybe financial smoke and mirrors were under regulated. And as soon as public rage has passed these markets immediately went straight back to lobbying again such.
 

Paz

Member
Even less productive than the last three years? I'm just hoping there's some way another DD could be called (not that I'm politically aware enough to know the likelihood of such a case) within the next year or so.

Really can't believe that after all this, the guy who gave that pissweak speech at 12:30am last Sunday (and his woeful party) is going to be our PM, even if only for a short time. Lack of movement on the dozens of policies that could move us forward as a nation are going to hold us back even further... NBN, renewable energy, that fucking plebiscite, innovation, arts, negative gearing... my heart sinks just thinking about it.


Right now I'd kill for another election.

We're going through what is probably the darkest period in Australian governance since I've been alive, I'd take Howard 100 times over these useless assholes.

The abbott government moved us back in every area that matters to me and that looks set to continue, that Malcom managed to convince people he stood for something different is some serious nonsense but I shouldn't be surprised, we're talking about the same voting populace that has gone back to Pauline Hanson ffs.
 
Even less productive than the last three years? I'm just hoping there's some way another DD could be called (not that I'm politically aware enough to know the likelihood of such a case) within the next year or so.

Really can't believe that after all this, the guy who gave that pissweak speech at 12:30am last Sunday (and his woeful party) is going to be our PM, even if only for a short time. Lack of movement on the dozens of policies that could move us forward as a nation are going to hold us back even further... NBN, renewable energy, that fucking plebiscite, innovation, arts, negative gearing... my heart sinks just thinking about it.


Right now I'd kill for another election.

Theres no way anyone is going for a DD unless they can get absolutely nothing bar Caretaker stuff through the Senate or they lose confidence/ supply in the house. A new DD will give pretty much the same Senate and a real chance of losing the house. Its better to wait 2 years and use a half-Senate elections higher quota to clean up a tad. Do they twice and the Senate Reform will probably show some value. Though quite likely only in providing blocks rather than less crossbench.
 
Good thing a clever man like Bob Katter has laid his cards on the table and will hold the balance of power in this country.

from his wikipedia page.

He has opposed enacting legislation to control emissions: "I mean, if you could imagine 20 or 30 crocodiles up there on the roof, and if all that roof was illumination, and saying that we wouldn't see anything in this room because of a few croco-roaches up there", he continued, "are you telling me seriously that the world is going to warm because there's 400 parts per million of CO2 up there?
 

Arksy

Member
Money speaks the loudest in a democracy though. And democracy is bad at expressing problems with specific issues, like maybe a particular regulation was bought and paid for that will allow someone to amass wealth over time. That's not going to be an election issue. Democracy really just changes the bribe recipients.

Democracy as a concept is one of the greatest artificial restraints of power ever devised. Transparency and accountability are the other two. I believe that currently in our system, we're lacking transparency, and that needs to be fixed.
 
Democracy as a concept is one of the greatest artificial restraints of power ever devised. Transparency and accountability are the other two. I believe that currently in our system, we're lacking transparency, and that needs to be fixed.

Theres also some lack of accountability (shouting about "National Security", buck passing to public servants (and once a thing is any further down the line than a department head you can guarantee that there'll be no actual accountability unless someone has a grudge against that department*)).

*Which is why the ABC gets probes and investigations up its ass for blinking with the left eye and Border Force fuckups fade out in about a week.
 

Dryk

Member
Good think a clever man like Bob Katter has laid his cards on the table and will hold the balance of power in this country.

from his wikipedia page.
I have no idea what he's trying to say.

As an aside, if you end up in a space with CO2 levels of 7% your body becomes overly acidic and you die.
 
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