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[Arksy]

77 is much, much safer than 76 because a member of the Government usually takes the role of speaker with limited voting privileges.

Georganas (Hindmarsh) kind of deserves a seat in Parliament, I've met the guy on numerous occasions and he's one of the most genuine, dedicated and hard working guys in politics. He's a true battler. He's not from a white collar background, he was once a factory worker and a cabbie. Top bloke.

 

[Elaugaufein]

77 is much, much safer than 76 because a member of the Government usually takes the role of speaker with limited voting privileges.

Georganas (Hindmarsh) kind of deserves a seat in Parliament, I've met the guy on numerous occasions and he's one of the most genuine, dedicated and hard working guys in politics. He's a true battler. He's not from a blue collar background, he was once a factory worker and a cabbie. Top bloke.

I think you may have typoed there. Factory Worker is like a textbook Blue Collar job. Cabbie would usually be counted too.

 

[Arksy]

I think you may have typoed there. Factory Worker is like a textbook Blue Collar job. Cabbie would usually be counted too.

Fuck, I meant white. Shit.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Its kind of weird how many local members are standup people but the overall system still ends up being a mess of factional loyalties and conflicts of interests.

 

[choodi]

Its kind of weird how many local members are standup people but the overall system still ends up being a mess of factional loyalties and conflicts of interests.

Not at all. I've worked for plenty of people who I thought were wonderful people personally, but as professionals were detestable.

 

[Jintor]

Its kind of weird how many local members are standup people but the overall system still ends up being a mess of factional loyalties and conflicts of interests.

I tend to like people, but systems are always clusterfucks at some point

 

[Quasar]

Eh, when there were serious issues of bias pointed out to them, they just stonewalled and sandbagged. Claiming that there was no such thing, which is bullshit. There's no such thing as unbiased reporting, anywhere, ever. Contrast to the UK where when the BBC was accused of bias, it conducted a review, pushed out several reports and worked towards reducing bias within their reporting. It wasn't perfect, and there still some valid criticism from both left and right sources about the bias in BBC reporting (see: EU Ref, IndyRef)..but they're on the whole a lot better than they used to be, according to people on both sides of the spectrum over there.

Given his obnoxious behaviour, the director of the ABC was crying foul that he would not be given another term, what did he expect?

What? pretty much every time the Liberals whined and we had some kind of independent inquiry the ABC was cleared.

As for the BBC, they in the past at least had some safety with the licence from government of the day threats and cuts. I continue to lament the fact that we gave that up here.

 

[Quasar]

Every time the libs get into power the ABC/SBS inevitably re-evaluate their reporting standards and then their funding gets shafted anyway. It's a wonder they stay as good as they do.

I mean heck the ABC already had its fact-checking unit cut and then drum online got taken out. Now the drum online I could take or leave but abc fact check was doing pretty solid work.

I am surprised the Drum didn't go the other way. Online I would think would have lower costs and less noticeable by Murdoch et al.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I am surprised the Drum didn't go the other way. Online I would think would have lower costs and less noticeable by Murdoch et al.

Murdoch moved onto complaining about the ABC going digit costing them money about 5 minutes after the ABC started doing it.

 

[Arksy]

Murdoch moved onto complaining about the ABC going digit costing them money about 5 minutes after the ABC started doing it.

Private business complains that a body with infinite power and money is encroaching into their space? Who would have thought?

What? pretty much every time the Liberals whined and we had some kind of independent inquiry the ABC was cleared.

As for the BBC, they in the past at least had some safety with the licence from government of the day threats and cuts. I continue to lament the fact that we gave that up here.

Internal investigations. People who have a certain bias have a certain blindspot for that bias? Again, who would have thought? As we've seen only last week, politics in this country is split pretty evenly split between left and right. It's so close to 50/50 that the difference is a mere few thousand votes. The fact that one side, consistently, over a long period of time, has complained about this issue....from the way in that members of the coalition are introduced, to having viewpoints caricatured and dismissed, doesn't give you any cause for concern?

 

[Elaugaufein]

Private business complains that a body with infinite power and money is encroaching into their space? Who would have thought.

The ABC is really bad at having either of those things. And I wasnt aware dead tree papers gave you exclusive domain over the internet.

 

[Quasar]

Private business complains that a body with infinite power and money is encroaching into their space? Who would have thought.

That poor small business owner.

 

[Aarglefarg]

I like this fun parallel universe wherein the ABC has infinite money and power.

 

[Arksy]

I like this fun parallel universe wherein the ABC has infinite money and power.

Was the ABC privatised while I wasn't looking? Or is it still an arm of the government?

 

[Quasar]

Was the ABC privatised while I wasn't looking? Or is it still an arm of the government?

Whose budget could probably be found in old Ruperts couch on a weeknight.

 

[Arksy]

You're kidding right? Murdoch's newspaper empire is on the brink of extinction and he can't get nearly anyone to pay for a subscription to his websites. The ABC however basically has a body with functionally infinite money backing them up, so they're able to offer news online for free...and they'll be able to do it forever. Who are people going to go to for online news? The one they have to pay for, or the free one? You might not like Murdoch, I certainly don't, but that doesn't mean his arguments here are not justified. Having to compete against the government puts you at a huge disadvantage.

 

[darkace]

I like this fun parallel universe wherein the ABC has infinite money and power.

The ABC 'business model' isn't one the private sector could possibly replicate given they don't have the near unconditional backing of the government.

 

[Elaugaufein]

The ABC 'business model' isn't one the private sector could possibly replicate given they don't have the near unconditional backing of the government.

The ABC doesn't have unconditional backing either. They endure Coalition governments for 2 reasons: broadly publicly popular and the Nats would chuck a fit because local commercial television and radio isn't worth delivering to some of their electorates. If the Libs thought they had a valid reason to sell the ABC to Murdoch wholesale they'd do it by next Tuesday.

 

[darkace]

The ABC doesn't have unconditional backing either. They endure Coalition governments for 2 reasons: broadly publicly popular and the Nats would chuck a fit because local commercial television and radio isn't worth delivering to some of their electorates. If the Libs thought they had a valid reason to sell the ABC to Murdoch wholesale they'd do it by next Tuesday.

That's not the point. The point is competition falls down when one competitor isn't subject to normal market forces.

 

[Jintor]

Market-operated media seems to be a net negative for the media's role as a fourth estate though.

 

[Bernbaum]

You're kidding right? Murdoch's newspaper empire is on the brink of extinction and he can't get nearly anyone to pay for a subscription to his websites. The ABC however basically has a body with functionally infinite money backing them up, so they're able to offer news online for free...and they'll be able to do it forever. Who are people going to go to for online news? The one they have to pay for, or the free one? You might not like Murdoch, I certainly don't, but that doesn't mean his arguments here are not justified. Having to compete against the government puts you at a huge disadvantage.

The Australian used to be a decent publication to subscribe to as a uni student. There was a clearer line between daily news and editorializing. I had favored columnists but also read pieces from the other side of the fence like Greg Sheridan who could still be appreciated even though not entirely agreeable.

These days, the print edition is trash and the online service reads like a budget version of Quadrant journal. For such a shitarse product, it's ridiculous that the Australian sits behind a paywall.

 

[Arksy]

Market-operated media seems to be a net negative for the media's role as a fourth estate though.

I don't know if that's true, hard to say to be honest, because while government owned media is a relatively new thing. (The press has been around for hundreds of years), no country really exists without having a state owned broadcaster these days. One thing I know for sure, stories that have brought entire governments down, of which there have been many, in almost every part of the "free" world, have rarely been brought to attention by state broadcasters.

The Australian used to be a decent publication to subscribe to as a uni student. There was a clearer line between daily news and editorializing. I had favored columnists but also read pieces from the other side of the fence like Greg Sheridan who could still be appreciated even though not entirely agreeable.

These days, the print edition is trash and the online service reads like a budget version of Quadrant journal. For such a shitarse product, it's ridiculous that the Australian sits behind a paywall.

This isn't an argument about Murdoch and his papers though, I feel that Fairfaix, The Guardian (which I'm very glad that they decided to open up in Australia), and every other privately owned media outlet has equal right to complain.

 

[Jintor]

I don't know if that's true, hard to say to be honest, because while government owned media is a relatively new thing. (The press has been around for hundreds of years), no country really exists without having a state owned broadcaster these days. One thing I know for sure, stories that have brought entire governments down, of which there have been many, in almost every part of the "free" world, have rarely been brought to attention by state broadcasters.

Fair point (though I'm hardly arguing for state-run only or something, in case that's unclear)

 

[munchie64]

Is it a generally held belief that the ABC is actually biased though? All I hear is complaining from both sides no matter who is in government.

 

[Arksy]

Of course.

I'm not arguing for the complete and utter abolition of the ABC (this time)....

My argument is twofold;

1. Given its status as a public broadcaster it should widely reflect the fact that we have a robust democracy and the public want to give both major political viewpoints a platform to articulate their policies and beliefs. As such, they should be acutely aware of any influence they may play in the debate themselves, and at the very least address claims of bias seriously. Furthermore they should not treat one of the sides of the argument as though it's a pathological disease.

2. We should be aware in the way that it distorts an important market. A balance must be struck between allowing the ABC to exist, whilst also allowing a large pluralistic press with many viewpoints coming from many differnet platforms. That didn't really exist before in Australia, but it's starting to exist now. We have a more diverse press now than we did 5 years ago...but we shouldn't be deaf to complaints about its ability to influence the market.

 

[Jintor]

I don't tend to find it dismissive of the right at all really (definitely not to the extent the murdoch press is dismissive of the left, though of course it doesn't have that... well, I hesitate to use the term after these last two weeks, but let's call it a mandate), but then I'm one of those reality-has-a-liberal-bias people, so... on another note, I'm also of the opinion a lack of bias is more or less impossible, but I suppose that doesn't gel so well with public funding.

However, I do think there should always be a critical fourth estate available to the public and where private markets fail to deliver government funding should step in. Further, there are definitely areas of public interest to which market forces do not encourage servicing, and those areas too are important. Whether or not in the past state-run media has or has not brought down governments is less important to me than that a market-driven media will skew as well, just in different ways.

 

[Elaugaufein]

ABC News is generally impartial (to the point of distortion on political issues that have clear scientific consensus).

ABCs Comedy and Entertainment have a pretty clear leftward slant (and a combined cast of about 30 people).

 

[Fredescu]

That time ABC deception played a major part in enabling racist policy: https://newmatilda.com/2015/06/21/b...-abc-lateline-sparked-racist-nt-intervention/

 

[Jintor]

oh yeah the comedy slants left, i dunno if anyone can deny that lmao

 

[Arksy]

That time ABC deception played a major part in enabling racist policy: https://newmatilda.com/2015/06/21/b...-abc-lateline-sparked-racist-nt-intervention/

Quite. It can absolutely go both ways...it's wrong when it skews left, and it's wrong when it skews right.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I can't think of a lot of comedies that significantly slants right, to be fair.

 

[munchie64]

Comedy overall slants left though right? Comedy is quite often about breaking boundries and calling out the less pleasant aspects of humans, being purposefully offensive etc.

 

[Jintor]

well, this discussion i think is moreso focused on the news/journalism side of things than the entertainment really

 

[bobnowhere]

If you want comedy you should be watching Q&A, Brandis and Steve Price are losing their minds atm.

 

[Arksy]

I don't think that's a particularly fair analysis. Plenty of comedy slants right.

A lot of it comes down to how you want to define left and right...and lines get blurred people quickly.

 

[Jintor]

I like that Q&A is heartily loathed by pretty much everyone on my social media feeds yet they all still watch it every week.

 

[munchie64]

If you want comedy you should be watching Q&A, Brandis and Steve Price are losing their minds atm.

I love Steve Price's comedy bits on the Project. Such a delight.

 

[Fredescu]

Comedy slants away from wherever authoritarianism is, and that can be either left or right.

 

[Arksy]

Comedy slants away from wherever authoritarianism is, and that can be either left or right.

Yeah I tend to agree with this.

 

[Bernbaum]

This isn't an argument about Murdoch and his papers though, I feel that Fairfaix, The Guardian (which I'm very glad that they decided to open up in Australia), and every other privately owned media outlet has equal right to complain.

I wasn't really responding to your post, merely dropping an opinion on the current condition and quality of Murdoch papers. My social media feeds are all Pokemon Go memes and I felt like some light political discourse.

 

[Arksy]

I wasn't really responding to your post, merely dropping an opinion on the current condition and quality of Murdoch papers. My social media feeds are all Pokemon Go memes and I felt like some light political discourse.

Fair call, I'm still pretty exhausted after my trip to the UK. Theirs is an absolutely incredible country, but it was nice to come home. Aside from environmental issues, the problems we have seem pretty meagre compared to theirs. We're not struggling with our own national identity in such a drastic way.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Fair call, I'm still pretty exhausted after my trip to the UK. Theirs is an absolutely incredible country, but it was nice to come home. Aside from environmental issues, the problems we have seem pretty meagre compared to theirs. We're not struggling with our own national identity in such a drastic way.

Pauline Hanson getting 1+ (probably 3) Seats says we still have our problems.

 

[munchie64]

Pauline Hanson getting 1+ (probably 3) Seats says we still have our problems.

Yeah I personally wouldn't mind the racist part of our national identity disappearing into the void.

 

[Arksy]

Yeah I personally wouldn't mind the racist part of our national identity disappearing into the void.

I was going to talk about how it's not so bad and that there are brighter days ahead...but I just ended a decade long friendship with someone after enduring a pretty bizarre racist attack/rant against me the other day.

It was the first time in my life that I had been attacked on the basis of race, and it stung a fair bit...the fact that it came from a supposed friend was worst part though. I'm normally ok with jokes, and I make light of myself pretty often....but this went WAY, WAY further any joke or quip. The most bizarre part is that my (former) friend is himself a migrant...except idiot logic applies so apparently coming here when you were 5 months old being from a predominantly Turkish Jewish background is somehow less Aussie than coming here at 8 from an Austrian background. :/

 

[Jintor]

I've been thinking a lot recently about whether calling out racists on being racist/homophobic/bigoted whatever is productive behaviour or whether it's better to try and lead others logically (hah) around to less dumbass viewpoints. Obviously in internet slapfights you have no personal investment with the other parties most of the time unless you've been around them for some time (present company excepted), but I expect most change comes gradually from more personal relationships where factors other than just pure arguments can swing people's minds.

On the other hand, you get shit like that. Sorry arksy, sounds pretty crap to be honest. I tend to find that I've pruned my friendlists so I don't really have a lot of people who disagree with me heavily on politics... at least none that I care enough to meaningfully engage with...

 

[darkace]

Comedy slants away from wherever authoritarianism is, and that can be either left or right.

Absolutely. I think that in robust democracies such as ours authoritarian tendencies tend to come from the social conservatives, which have aligned themselves almost worldwide with the right (although Australia was unique here, with our social conservatives aligning with our leftwards party, although they've since migrated).

I imagine that in the old socialist countries the opposite comedy slant would occur (although I have nothing to back this up with).

 

[munchie64]

I was going to talk about how it's not so bad and that there are brighter days ahead...but I just ended a decade long friendship with someone after enduring a pretty bizarre racist attack/rant against me the other day.

It was the first time in my life that I had been attacked on the basis of race, and it stung a fair bit...the fact that it came from a supposed friend was worst part though. I'm normally ok with jokes, and I make light of myself pretty often....but this went WAY, WAY further any joke or quip. The most bizarre part is that my (former) friend is himself a migrant...except idiot logic applies so apparently coming here when you were 5 months old being from a predominantly Turkish Jewish background is somehow less Aussie than coming here at 8 from an Austrian background. :/

Man sorry to hear, that sucks. I doubt it's quite the equivalent to that, but I have been fairly annoyed recently in particular about people assuming I'd automatically agree with them about particularly racist viewpoints because I'm white and quite Australian family wise. Definitely not saying I'm a victim or anything, but it arises some awkward and rage inducing situations.

Still, things seem to get better generally, so I look forward to more of that!

 

[Arksy]

Thanks guys, I was pretty dumbstruck at the time, looking back a couple of days later I can say what angered me the most about it was the logic behind what he said. It was so stupid and demonstrably idiotic that I just couldn't even be bothered refuting it and it made me upset that he was acting like a youtube commenter so I said fuck it. I was excepting an apology but when none came I made the decision to cut him out.

I've never felt shut out or subjected negatively here in Australia because of my background, except for the obtuse things. Like I don't think I'm ever going to become a ripcurl model advertising beach underwear. LOL...but that doesn't bother me. In fact, I felt rather like an outsider when I went to my ancestral homelands. I consider myself Aussie through and through. I have a pretty positive outlook on most people, and I'm willing to see past certain flaws of people because I know they're generally better than that...but I dunno...it was weird.

There's definitely an element of racism within Australia, and I'd be lying if I said I was entirely immune from being a victim or perpetrator of it. I don't think it's a significant issue, but it's not trivial either.

 

[Jintor]

racism's a funny thing. been living in homogenous rural japan for a while and (though I have camoflage being of chinese descent) the way race is even thought about here is so... alien to australia in so many ways.

 

[bobnowhere]

So the reason the ALP has called Cowan was that they found 200 votes for Aly in the Luke Simpkins pile!



My family has been here since all the way back to about 1962 and my best mate can trace his family back to the 1860's gold rush in Queensland. Yet because I'm anglo as and he still looks Chinese even though he's only about 3/8s or so guess who cops the racist abuse and the general mistrust?

In the eyes of many, many of who I suspect voted for Hanson, this has and will always be an Anglo-Saxon country. If only everyone pretended to be Anglo all our problems would be solved, everyone would have a great job and house and we'd grow supermodels on trees or some such.

I'd love Hanson to answer the question one day, what exactly is this Australian Culture migrants need to adhere to? Is it mateship? Guess what every country has that, pretending Australia is somehow unique in this jingoistic aspect is nonsense. Australian culture is pretty generic and derivative but saying that is "Un-Australian', the worst insult possible and without the influence of multiculturalism on this country it would be a pretty fucking boring place.