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[Candescence]

Brandis claimed ignorance over the WA deal, and pointed fingers at Joe Hockey. Of course, from what we actually know about the case, he's either lying (and corrupt) or sincere and completely incompetent. Then again, if the former is true, he's still incompetent if he honestly thought anyone would believe his bullshit.

 

[Candescence]

The ABCC has passed, but it's so watered down that it's a hollow victory, and the Greens' tactic of proposing protectionist amendments to have ABCC-covered builders use mostly Australian steel only and such succeeded with flying colours, which essentially turned the bill into a protectionist bill with 'red tape' that the neoliberals hate with a passion, making it an even more hollow victory for the government. And that's assuming the public even care at this point.

Also, Labor's 10.5% rate amendment for the backpacker tax passed the senate, being backed by an angry Derryn Hinch (who was furious at Scott Morrison admitting they wouldn't compromise on the bill during a Christmas BBQ), Lambie, Leyonhjelm, and One Nation's Rod Culleton, who broke from the rest of his party and basically got egg in Pauline's face in the process, which is always good. The government has literally just a day to change the minds of two of the crossbenchers before Parliament rises.

 

[Yagharek]

Anyone tried watching more than five minutes of David Oldfield on the series of First Contact?

 

[Elaugaufein]

Leyonhjelm has already signalled he's willing to change his vote. I'd say they makes Cullerton the other likely target. Lambie has been pretty consistent on burning this to the ground and Hinch tends not to do vague promise horse trading which is about all they'd have to offer him in 1 day.

 

[bomma_man]

The ABCC has passed, but it's so watered down that it's a hollow victory, and the Greens' tactic of proposing protectionist amendments to have ABCC-covered builders use mostly Australian steel only and such succeeded with flying colours, which essentially turned the bill into a protectionist bill with 'red tape' that the neoliberals hate with a passion, making it an even more hollow victory for the government. And that's assuming the public even care at this point.

Also, Labor's 10.5% rate amendment for the backpacker tax passed the senate, being backed by an angry Derryn Hinch (who was furious at Scott Morrison admitting they wouldn't compromise on the bill during a Christmas BBQ), Lambie, Leyonhjelm, and One Nation's Rod Culleton, who broke from the rest of his party and basically got egg in Pauline's face in the process, which is always good. The government has literally just a day to change the minds of two of the crossbenchers before Parliament rises.

Did the public ever care about it?

I have to say that i've been somewhat impressed with Hinch (my bar was awfully low though). He seems to take the job pretty seriously (as I said, low bar) and actually consider legislation on its merits. A bit like the Brick.

ON feels more and more like Palmer United every day. I wonder what right-populist party will pop up for it's time in the sun next election? It feels like voting for these clowns is the manifestation of "fuck voting, they're all bad" in a compulsory system.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Did the public ever care about it?

I have to say that i've been somewhat impressed with Hinch (my bar was awfully low though). He seems to take the job pretty seriously (as I said, low bar) and actually consider legislation on its merits. A bit like the Brick.

ON feels more and more like Palmer United every day. I wonder what right-populist party will pop up for it's time in the sun next election? It feels like voting for these clowns is the manifestation of "fuck voting, they're all bad" in a compulsory system.

Don't think so. At least not for PHON who's supporters are very much conservatives (if they have gripes with the LNP its that they aren't conservative enough). Neither Malcom Roberts complete failure to understand science nor the inability to understand the law he shares with Cullerton if anything only strengthen their support.

 

[bomma_man]

Don't think so. At least not for PHON who's supporters are very much conservatives (if they have gripes with the LNP its that they aren't conservative enough). Neither Malcom Roberts complete failure to understand science nor the inability to understand the law he shares with Cullerton if anything only strengthen their support.

iirc a lot of ON's preferences went to Labor no?

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-23/barrie-cassidy-one-nation-influence-runs-deep/7868466

 

[Elaugaufein]

iirc a lot of ON's preferences went to Labor no?

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-23/barrie-cassidy-one-nation-influence-runs-deep/7868466

They split their cards in a lot of places and directed to Labor over Wyatt. The Demographic information seems wildly fecking inconsistent though (maybe it depends on the sampling) but at least one recent one I saw suggest conservative voters in ALP electorates.

 

[Omikron]

The reactions to protests are always interesting.

 

[Shaneus]

The reactions to protests are always interesting.

"Interesting".

 

[legend166]

So for the backpacker tax, let me see if I've got this right: The government want to reclassify people on a working holiday from residents to non-residents (which I guess makes sense).

Under the current system, working holiday makers effectively pay little to no tax, because many of them probably wouldn't be making much more than $18,000 a year anyway, and as 'residents', they are allowed to claim the tax free threshold.

Under existing law, once classified as non-residents they'd have to pay 32.5% tax. The government wanted to introduce a 19% tax, and then compromised down to 15%. Labor want 10.5%.

So in this upside down world of ours, the Libs are arguing for a higher tax, Labor want a lower tax, and farmers want no tax so they can continue to exploit cheap foreign labour.

Did I get that about right?

No wonder people are disengaging from politics in this country.

 

[bobnowhere]

The ABCC has passed, but it's so watered down that it's a hollow victory, and the Greens' tactic of proposing protectionist amendments to have ABCC-covered builders use mostly Australian steel only and such succeeded with flying colours, which essentially turned the bill into a protectionist bill with 'red tape' that the neoliberals hate with a passion, making it an even more hollow victory for the government. And that's assuming the public even care at this point.

Also, Labor's 10.5% rate amendment for the backpacker tax passed the senate, being backed by an angry Derryn Hinch (who was furious at Scott Morrison admitting they wouldn't compromise on the bill during a Christmas BBQ), Lambie, Leyonhjelm, and One Nation's Rod Culleton, who broke from the rest of his party and basically got egg in Pauline's face in the process, which is always good. The government has literally just a day to change the minds of two of the crossbenchers before Parliament rises.

The protectionist stuff is amazing, one Labor insider said not even the left of the ALP would try and get that one through cabinet!

Anyone tried watching more than five minutes of David Oldfield on the series of First Contact?

I zoned out after a while, I think it was after telling them to clean up the rubbish and that the stolen generation didn't exist and even it it did it was probably for the best. Complete grub.

The reactions to protests are always interesting.

I love how Pyne immediately mentioned the union protest in the 90's but conveniently forgot the organised anti Carbon Tax from 2011 where 80 people interrupted Question time.

 

[Elaugaufein]

You can get away with some amazing stuff when the government desperately needs a win and would rather eat Glass than admit they sold their shorts.

 

[Rubixcuba]

Did I get that about right?

No wonder people are disengaging from politics in this country.

Yep you got it right!

It's a bit weird isn't it? Shorten is talking about how bad 457 visas are, then rallying for foreign fruit pickers to be taxed a lower rate so we are competitive with New Zealand's 10.5% rate.

Also, I have yet to meet a single 'ordinary' person who cares or even knows what the ABCC Bill is/was. Turnbull carried on as it that was single reason the Coalition was returned, when during the course of the election the ABCC was barley spoken of/

 

[Elaugaufein]

Yep you got it right!

It's a bit weird isn't it? Shorten is talking about how bad 457 visas are, then rallying for foreign fruit pickers to be taxed a lower rate so we are competitive with New Zealand's 10.5% rate.

Also, I have yet to meet a single 'ordinary' person who cares or even knows what the ABCC Bill is/was. Turnbull carried on as it that was single reason the Coalition was returned, when during the course of the election the ABCC was barley spoken of/

If ordinary people cared he'd be in an even worse position he traded away huge amounts of its power and put in a bunch of protectionism that would be anethma to people who hate unions in the first place. As it is he can at least claim he got it through (because the name is the same).

 

[Elaugaufein]

WTF just happened with the Backpacker tax ? It appears the government just agreed to the same effective rate as Labor offered but threw in 100 mil for Landcare on top just so they didn't have to agree with Labor's rate.

 

[bobnowhere]

Looks like the Greens were the ones to flip on the Back packer tax at 15%. Though the headline rate will be 15%, the reduction in forfeited super drops to 65% from 90% so backpackers are taxed at an effective rate of 13% now. The Greens also got 100mil for Landcare.

So everyone wins? The race to the bottom continues.

Also JCVD was at Parliament today and went so close to ridding us of Josh Frydenberg. The guy still has it!

 

[TheWasTheJoke]

You can get away with some amazing stuff when the government desperately needs a win and would rather eat Glass than admit they sold their shorts.

The contrast between this bunch and Gillard's government is rather spectacular when it comes to pushing effective legislation through the cross bench, although I'm not exactly sure why? Gillard was by all accounts a sound administrator but other than that I can only think of a more lenient cross bench as reason

 

[Elaugaufein]

The contrast between this bunch and Gillard's government is rather spectacular when it comes to pushing effective legislation through the cross bench, although I'm not exactly sure why? Gillard was by all accounts a sound administrator but other than that I can only think of a more lenient cross bench as reason

She had a much more lenient Cross Bench in the Senate , Labor + (Greens or Coalition) = Pass. Her actual headache was the House but her main worries were Katter and Windsor (since Bandt and Wilkie were generally onside). Which would be comparatively simple (basically a couple of Nats who weren't tied to the Libs, Windsor in particular wasn't even a die hard social conservative)

 

[Quasar]

She had a much more lenient Cross Bench in the Senate , Labor + (Greens or Coalition) = Pass. Her actual headache was the House but her main worries were Katter and Windsor (since Bandt and Wilkie were generally onside). Which would be comparatively simple (basically a couple of Nats who weren't tied to the Libs, Windsor in particular wasn't even a die hard social conservative)

Well she actually knew how to work more cooperatively and did not just browbeat and threaten the senate to the point of changing laws to try and run them out of town (which failed spectacularly). No wonder they look poorly on the government.

 

[Candescence]

So Malcom axed Tony's "Green Army". Okay, that's not so surprising, I guess, and Tony predictably whined about it. But then Josh Frydenberg reveals the new climate policy review will also include consideration of a carbon price of sorts, and now the conservatives are going apeshit.

What is going on?!

 

[bobnowhere]

So Malcom axed Tony's "Green Army". Okay, that's not so surprising, I guess, and Tony predictably whined about it. But then Josh Frydenberg reveals the new climate policy review will also include consideration of a carbon price of sorts, and now the conservatives are going apeshit.

What is going on?!

I saw Malcolm claiming he never supported a Carbon Tax while some of his colleges did! Direct action is a complete waste of time and is paying people money to do stuff they would have done anyway. Carbon emissions went up after the "carbon tax" was axed yet Turnbull and Frydenberg continually fight against the tide.

ONP predictable falling further apart.

One Nation leader Pauline Hanson says she can no longer work with her Senate colleague Rod Culleton, portraying him as an egomaniac obsessed with publicity and incapable of teamwork in an extraordinary outburst on live radio.
...

Reminds me of someone...

Also that Tribunal to fight the evil Banks so people are compensated for wrong doings that they wanted instead of the RC that might go after the underlying factors well it's no longer a Tribunal but a tribunal or probably just another ombudsman that we pay for instead of the Banks.

It's a bit like Trump's wall, it'll be 100 foot high, well 50, well in some places it will be a fence, maybe a ditch, there's a river there, one guy and an angry dog...

 

[Quasar]

Man..to think I liked Dick Smith at some point.

 

[Shandy]

Man..to think I liked Dick Smith at some point.

Dick Smith is the most Aussie bloke on the planet. You don't want to be un-Aussie, do you, you rotten inner-city liberal greenie communist? If you want to be as Aussie as ol' Dick, you should vote for your Pauline Hanson's One Nation candidate in your next election.

Well, at least he's not giving her money.

Spoiler

Yet.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Dick Smith is the most Aussie bloke on the planet. You don't want to be un-Aussie, do you, you rotten inner-city liberal greenie communist? If you want to be as Aussie as ol' Dick, you should vote for your Pauline Hanson's One Nation candidate in your next election.

Well, at least he's not giving her money.

Spoiler

Yet.

TBF he's been for restricted immigration flow due to population concerns for like a decade now. Dunno why he didn't go with Sustainable Australia on that principle though, it's like One Nation but without nearly all of the crazy (they aren't even against humanitarian intake).

 

[Quasar]

TBF he's been for restricted immigration flow due to population concerns for like a decade now. Dunno why he didn't go with Sustainable Australia on that principle though, it's like One Nation but without nearly all of the crazy (they aren't even against humanitarian intake).

Yeah.

And I don't really disagree, especially if they are just going to all pile into Sydney and Melbourne.

 

[Shandy]

I don't know anything about Sustainable Australia. They seem pretty reasonable at a glance, though. Being reasonable doesn't light fires under disenfranchised voters, though. Bombastic rhetoric does. Maybe he's just trying to pick a, for want of a better term, winner. Oh, it makes me sick...

 

[Elaugaufein]

I have to admit I'm impressed at the way One Nations polling keeps increasing even as both the individuals within the party and the party demonstrate they are completely unfit for public office. Roberts and Cullerton have both publicly demonstrated the subscribe to completely insane legal theories (and Roberts is close to a self-parody of climate change denial). And they've already failed at basic party discipline despite this being Take 2. And yet somehow their polling keeps creeping up 1% a month.

 

[Yagharek]

So Malcom axed Tony's "Green Army". Okay, that's not so surprising, I guess, and Tony predictably whined about it. But then Josh Frydenberg reveals the new climate policy review will also include consideration of a carbon price of sorts, and now the conservatives are going apeshit.

What is going on?!

So it's a weekday then?

 

[D.Lo]

I have to admit I'm impressed at the way One Nations polling keeps increasing even as both the individuals within the party and the party demonstrate they are completely unfit for public office. Roberts and Cullerton have both publicly demonstrated the subscribe to completely insane legal theories (and Roberts is close to a self-parody of climate change denial). And they've already failed at basic party discipline despite this being Take 2. And yet somehow their polling keeps creeping up 1% a month.

The main show is useless Turnbull vs useless Shorten round 2.

People are just looking for any other channel to watch.

 

[TheWasTheJoke]

Have the Liberals ever been this intellectually bankrupt? From climate change to gay marriage to negative gearing, they continue to imitate the GOP more and more. It would be interesting to actually know which party listens to experts the most, I suppose Labor even though they waffle on with their Gonski revisionism re Plibersek

 

[bobnowhere]

-0.5% GDP growth in the September quarter.

Thank God the adults are in charge. Can't wait for ScoMo to blame this on the ALP, Unions, the fact that it is a leap year, Unions, Backpackers, The Senate, Unions, The Greens, Renewable Energy, Unions...

 

[DrSlek]

Dick Smith is the most Aussie bloke on the planet. You don't want to be un-Aussie, do you, you rotten inner-city liberal greenie communist? If you want to be as Aussie as ol' Dick, you should vote for your Pauline Hanson's One Nation candidate in your next election.

Well, at least he's not giving her money.

Spoiler

Yet.

I believe I read yesterday he was going to make donations and secure upwards of 10k votes for ON.

Given her party is committing auto-cannibalism, I don't know if it will last long enough for those votes to matter.

 

[bobnowhere]

Yep The ALP, Greens, The Senate, Unions and Renewable energy all copped a spray from ScoMO. #BringBackJoe

Funny thing is he blamed all the Capital currently hidden in a "cave." Except where is all the private capital at the moment? That's right it's mostly holed up in unproductive private housing! Yet Negative gearing is the tory vote saviour and housing makes up something like 18-20% of GDP. Can't have it both ways Scott.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Yep The ALP, Greens, The Senate, Unions and Renewable energy all copped a spray from ScoMO. #BringBackJoe

Funny thing is he blamed all the Capital currently hidden in a "cave." Except where is all the private capital at the moment? That's right it's mostly holed up in unproductive private housing! Yet Negative gearing is the tory vote saviour and housing makes up something like 18-20% of GDP. Can't have it both ways Scott.

Don't forget the off sure tax havens / low tax areas.

 

[bobnowhere]

Don't forget the off sure tax havens / low tax areas.

Wouldn't want Malcolm to be forced to invest his millions in Australia! He rather invest in that predatory real estate company that takes advantage of foreclosures.

 

[TheWasTheJoke]

https://theconversation.com/austral...-performance-heres-what-needs-to-change-69782

Does anything think that at this point it is cultural barriers that are hampering results more than anything? Good funding, teachers and facilities can only do so much when kids aren't interested in learning. We have cultivated an environment that not only reinforces tall poppy syndrome, "(girl) must have cheated there's no WAY shes smart" (bro), but also places little emphesis on doing well at school or acdemia

The idea that In the long run, school results don't matter, just transfer into your dream degree, neither does uni becuase x and y, is a valid one, but it also has led to a lowering of the stakes. If people don't have motivation to excel, they likely won't, re china, where end-of-school exams are life and death and because of that kids study 10 hours a day

As a whole Australia is probably doing fine in this department and from what Ive heard the science grad shortage is a meme but nevertheless doing better would always boost productivity and whatnot and is likely a good thing

EDIT: Alright we don't have good teachers and thats an area for improvement but that in no way nullifies the entire issue

 

[Jintor]

bear in mind that asian study culture (to generalise massively) has created really fucking weird situations where high school students stress out of their brains for exams but when they grow up then aren't really challenged in meaningful ways in work environments other than by having insanely long hours

 

[Yagharek]

I've heard some arguments that frame the problem of education as how it is viewed. Currently we view it as a right. That subsequently establishes a client-service relationship where students are customers and education is the product. It devalues the act of knowledge transfer into an economic transaction rather than a privelige.

That's not to say people arent entitled to education, but rather the way we see it devalues it and perhaps feeds into general attitudes everyone (schools, students, parents) have towards the process.

Making school even more like an industrial revolution production line probably isnt going to inspire anyone either. People are more than just economic units of production.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Having been through the asian tiger education ringer, and even though I came over before the really stressful part came aka high school, I'm fucking glad I got out of that.

I honestly don't think that's the model the australian school system should be modeled after.

 

[bobnowhere]

The issue wasn't the general standard of the Australian education system but the unaddressed inequality that has been causing the drop. Something that Gonski was specifically set up to address mostly in year 5 and 6 but we know what happened in 2013.

Making school even more like an industrial revolution production line probably isnt going to inspire anyone either. People are more than just economic units of production.

Well there goes your invitation to the IPA.

 

[Yagharek]

The issue wasn't the general standard of the Australian education system but the unaddressed inequality that has been causing the drop. Something that Gonski was specifically set up to address mostly in year 5 and 6 but we know what happened in 2013..

This is where it gets tricky. What do we value: equality or equity? Should everyone have the same material available to them/the same curriculum/the same facilities OR do we instead make sure that everyone has the best options available to them so that they can achieve as much as they want given the effort and access? Both are desirable and yet still contradict each other in some areas.

Then there is the issue of opportunity. If you tell a child they can be anything, will they believe you if they live in a remote town, a housing commission suburb, or see generations of unemplyment and menial jobs in their social circles? Will they honestly believe they have the same opportunity as a north shore grammar school student whose parents come from long lines of intergenerational wealth? Should they expect the same?

These are the kinds of issues that to me imply we should take funding control away from IPAs and productivity commissions and business and industry groups if only for a moment and ask the philosophers and ethicists for a considered opinion on what is important for a society and then try and compromise with the economic realities.

 

[Elaugaufein]

This is where it gets tricky. What do we value: equality or equity? Should everyone have the same material available to them/the same curriculum/the same facilities OR do we instead make sure that everyone has the best options available to them so that they can achieve as much as they want given the effort and access? Both are desirable and yet still contradict each other in some areas.

Then there is the issue of opportunity. If you tell a child they can be anything, will they believe you if they live in a remote town, a housing commission suburb, or see generations of unemplyment and menial jobs in their social circles? Will they honestly believe they have the same opportunity as a north shore grammar school student whose parents come from long lines of intergenerational wealth? Should they expect the same?

These are the kinds of issues that to me imply we should take funding control away from IPAs and productivity commissions and business and industry groups if only for a moment and ask the philosophers and ethicists for a considered opinion on what is important for a society and then try and compromise with the economic realities.

The problem with this is that the number of (at least somewhat and sometimes outright mutually incompatible) conflicting philosophies / ethical theories in existence makes economic theories seem like they are in pitifully short supply.

 

[Yagharek]

It's not about a singular answer. We have that already and it is unbalanced against reality. Having more perspectives on what we value is useful to get people to think more about what they think is important in education and vote accordingly.

All we have now is an assembly line for economic growth.

 

[bobnowhere]

Chris Pyne said an interesting thing just after Turnbull took over from Abbott when he was still the Education Minister. He was on a show, probably Lateline or 7.30, and they were talking about the worth of various University degrees and he said more esoteric degrees while maybe not providing the same economic benefit to the country are still valuable to the overall knowledge base or well being of the nation. I almost fell off my chair at this point.

It suppose it does show the fundamental divide inside the government, the Moderates looking to work across the aisle with the crossbench and they right-wing off their own party while the right-wing has no interest in working with anyone and continually threatens to leave or vote down anything they don't like.

I suppose that is the nature of politics everywhere, the further you are away from the middle the less interest you have in any sort of consensus.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Chris Pyne said an interesting thing just after Turnbull took over from Abbott when he was still the Education Minister. He was on a show, probably Lateline or 7.30, and they were talking about the worth of various University degrees and he said more esoteric degrees while maybe not providing the same economic benefit to the country are still valuable to the overall knowledge base or well being of the nation. I almost fell off my chair at this point.

It suppose it does show the fundamental divide inside the government, the Moderates looking to work across the aisle with the crossbench and they right-wing off their own party while the right-wing has no interest in working with anyone and continually threatens to leave or vote down anything they don't like.

I suppose that is the nature of politics everywhere, the further you are away from the middle the less interest you have in any sort of consensus.

So what about the Greens ? The media usually treats them like they are as far from the centre as One Nation but that doesn't really match your theory.

 

[TheWasTheJoke]

So what about the Greens ? The media usually treats them like they are as far from the centre as One Nation but that doesn't really match your theory.

Wouldn't that be because in reality they aren't that leftist? Media portrayal is always going to be sensationalist. I mean it's crazy that the Greens are only now calling for decriminalisation of drugs when groups in the US did 15 years ago.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Wouldn't that be because in reality they aren't that leftist? Media portrayal is always going to be sensationalist. I mean it's crazy that the Greens are only now calling for decriminalisation of drugs when groups in the US did 15 years ago.

The Greens actually had drug decriminalisation as policy previously but backed away due to News Corp pressure (not exactly glorious).

 

[D.Lo]

Left and right in social policy is always relative.

To some extent in economic policy as well, unless you go all the way and either basically abolish government or abolish private property.

 

[Candescence]

So SA Premier Jay Weatherill has basically gone and stated "look, if the government isn't going to actually lead the way on climate policy, the states are going to have to implement a state-based emissions trading scheme themselves".

Cue Frydenberg scream "BUT MUH ENERGY SECURITY".