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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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If we have to pay for protection, it is nothing but organised crime. Still a shithouse justification considering all the other things that actually need money spent on them.

yeah but itd happen between heaps of countries, unlike the arab counties we have no oil the usa are using so if shit REALLY hit the fan we would need to have shown our commitment to them, otherwise what real reason do they have to protect us.
 

Dryk

Member
yeah but itd happen between heaps of countries, unlike the arab counties we have no oil the usa are using so if shit REALLY hit the fan we would need to have shown our commitment to them, otherwise what real reason do they have to protect us.
Treaties for one, the fact that Australia being under western control is strategically valuable for another
 
Treaties for one, the fact that Australia being under western control is strategically valuable for another

Yeah, now this is obviously so OT, but there wear treaties that germany wouldnt invade the soviet union, and howed that work out.
Stuff like this plane deal is presumably what helps our cause, while america are the big kid in the playground thats just how it is,
 

Tommy DJ

Member
There is no justification to buying the F-35 in the numbers Abbott is planning. Its expensive, laden with technical problems, laden with design flaws, likely obsolete to Russia's fleet, and at this point probably worse at doing its job as a stealth fighter than the F-22.
 

Dryk

Member
It's because the F-35's entire design philosophy is arse backwards. A piece of technology that complicated cannot be sensibly broken down into a jack-of-all trades chassis with different kits slapped on for different customers. But because they decided to go with a brand-new high throughput production process and needed to serve 3 different requirements at once they did.

Not to mention the fact that beyond that they're going all in on electronic warfare and stealth to the detriment of aircraft performance. If/when someone can even the playing field with their own stealth technology it's going to be outclassed.
 

Yagharek

Member
There is no justification to buying the F-35 in the numbers Abbott is planning. Its expensive, laden with technical problems, laden with design flaws, likely obsolete to Russia's fleet, and at this point probably worse at doing its job as a stealth fighter than the F-22.

It's OK, Russian jets cant reach us here. Neither can working Russian subs, for that matter.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Our diplomatic interactions with the US tend to be rather one-sided in any case

Word on the grapevine is that Abbott is getting crucified on 7:30, anybody watching?
It was pretty much par for the course as far as Abbott on 7:30 goes, only instead of O'Brien or Sales letting him tie himself in knots it was Ferguson. It's a bit like watching three different fighters demonstrate their arts on a training dummy.
 

Tommy DJ

Member
I think you're joking but I'm referring to anyone else that can use that aircraft. I'd have expected Abbott to read that report that concludes that the F-35 is kind of shit and probably won't be particularly good against a hypothetically aggressive Indonesia, armed with Russian aircraft, that he's obviously prepared for. Oh wait, his cabinet just does whatever the fuck it wants.

Then again, spending money on stupid military hardware that works badly is something the entire world does. The new United Kingdom aircraft carriers don't have CATOBAR systems so they don't have interoperability with US and French aircraft.
 

Arksy

Member
Oh good, my substitute is here, I can bow out for a month again while I gallivant off to another corner of the world.
 

Arksy

Member
Are you referring to yours truly.

There aren't just lefties here, they do populate the thread but I'm quite firmly on the other side on a bunch of issues. Even still, there's a lot of decent discussion that goes on here from time to time. They're a good lot here. Sure, half the time it's me arguing against the rest of the thread but it's good to have my ideas put to scrutiny, I love political debate so I don't back away. I know other righties exist here but they don't come into this thread for one reason or another.
 
Yeah, this threat is just so unwelcoming to others because people with alternate opinion etc (read the shit i posted today) are met with abuse and tantrums from some people, god forbid they get into a debate irl.
 

lexi

Banned
This thread is unwelcoming to those with wrong opinions.

Do you do the whole oppressed majority thing like the American conservatives too?
 
Can't imagine why a bunch of bitter lefties would respond that way

This thread is unwelcoming to those with wrong opinions.

So your not open to any criticism or debate? Im not a fan of EITHER side so dont label or marginalise my opinion.

Lexi mate im sorry but arrogance and ignorance is a very dangerous combination, this is a discussion forum, how about some of that from you instead of tears and snark brother. Dont get upset were all mates here.
 

Jintor

Member
I'm just saying that you didn't start with "You guys seem a bit negative", you jumped straight to the "You're all attacking me you bitter lefties" and then never got out of your victim funk.

Lexi does get pretty vicious but there's good conversation to be had if you'd stop braying about how victimised you are
 

Jintor

Member
Like if we weren't open to criticism or debate what do you call the series of posts following yours? I know you're new to the thread but responses were a pretty standard mix of one-liners and people with substantive points
 
I'm just saying that you didn't start with "You guys seem a bit negative", you jumped straight to the "You're all attacking me you bitter lefties" and then never got out of your victim funk.

Lexi does get pretty vicious but there's good conversation to be had if you'd stop braying about how victimised you are

Im not playing the victim card, unlike some of you dudes seem to im not emotionally involved, its just embarrassing and undermines your positions when name calling takes precedence over real discussion. Lexi should keep schtum if he has nothing positive to contribute in a particular discussion imo.

If i were you id be like "i respect your viewpoints, heres my reply xyz welcome to the topic"
 

Arksy

Member
Yeah, this threat is just so unwelcoming to others because people with alternate opinion etc (read the shit i posted today) are met with abuse and tantrums from some people, god forbid they get into a debate irl.

That's just the nature of the game. No one on any side is above getting frustrated and angry and venting about things. Hell, that means you're at least thinking about issues. It's healthy. It's politics, no politician ever gets a clean run. You gotta be able to handle the heat.

Today a very substantial piece of legislation was repealed that some people think was vital to the health of our environment and without it, we're moving towards a dire place. In their place, I would be absolutely livid. Just wait till this spy surveillance stuff comes to the fore and gets debated in parliament. I'm going to turn into a big green monster and wreck everything.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable for Jintor to be repulsed by the actions of today's parliamentary proceedings. In the same way that it's not unreasonable for someone to be repulsed that gun control was defeated in the US Senate following the Sandy Hook tragedy....or anything really.
 

Jintor

Member
Is it better or worse to be emotionally invested in politics? It probably makes more sense to be emotionally invested in it than sports, right?
 
That's just the nature of the game. No one on any side is above getting frustrated and angry and venting about things. Hell, that means you're at least thinking about issues. It's healthy. It's politics, no politician ever gets a clean run. You gotta be able to handle the heat.

Today a very substantial piece of legislation was repealed that some people think was vital to the health of our environment and without it, we're moving towards a dire place. In their place, I would be absolutely livid. Just wait till this spy surveillance stuff comes to the fore and gets debated in parliament. I'm going to turn into a big green monster and wreck everything.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable for Jintor to be repulsed by the actions of today's parliamentary proceedings. In the same way that it's not unreasonable for someone to be repulsed that gun control was defeated in the US Senate following the Sandy Hook tragedy....or anything really.

Alright ill read it tommorow but

1.whats the surveillance laws?
2.comparing the carbon tax (which i dunno wouldnt all the big countries need to lower there emissions too to make a difference? Were like 1% or some shit lol). To the gun control is a stretch- that would have actual visible immediate improvements, the carbon stuff wont be noticible til way way after were all gone.

Dardtadly jerks- who the fuck are you basically, dont misquote me thanks.
 

Jintor

Member
By the way, speaking of spy bullshit, isn't Brandis moving to try and completely nuke journalists who report snowden-style leaks? Thought I saw something on that today.
 

Arksy

Member
Alright ill read it tommorow but

1.whats the surveillance laws?
2.comparing the carbon tax (which i dunno wouldnt all the big countries need to lower there emissions too to make a difference? Were like 1% or some shit lol). To the gun control is a stretch- that would have actual visible immediate improvements, the carbon stuff wont be noticible til way way after were all gone.

The legislation Brandis has just introduced into parliament criminalising national security leaks and the data retention laws mandating that ISPs hold your data for two years.

It's not a stretch at all. You're looking at it objectively, you need to look at it subjectively from their point of view. It was a piece of legislation that mattered dearly, and now it's gone.
 
By the way, speaking of spy bullshit, isn't Brandis moving to try and completely nuke journalists who report snowden-style leaks? Thought I saw something on that today.

Yep.

Dardtadly jerks- who the fuck are you basically, dont misquote me thanks.

It's all of your posts summed up into one delightful sentence. I think it highlights your endearing folksy personality and your beautiful eyes.
 

Dryk

Member
Just wait till this spy surveillance stuff comes to the fore and gets debated in parliament. I'm going to turn into a big green monster and wreck everything.
We should start talking about that now. It'd be a good bonding experience for the thread
 

Arksy

Member
Also apparently in NSW the police can track you through your opal card without a warrant, so that's great too

I'm all for amending the constitution to require that all members of the political establishment memorise the magna carta, the declaration of independence and the collective works of Blackstone word for word.
 

Dryk

Member
2.comparing the carbon tax (which i dunno wouldnt all the big countries need to lower there emissions too to make a difference?
The other big countries aren't doing it because nobody else is. The EU and our systems were a good encouragement for others to join us.

Also while we do only contribute 1% to global emissions we have the 11th highest emissions per capita and one of the highest in developed nations. Much higher than China and we edge out the US. Because of that saying that countries that are doing better than us but producing more emissions should deal with it is an incredibly unhelpful attitude.

To use an example incredibly heavily tied to a standard tragedy of the commons analogy. Australia has 1 cow and China has 1000. China limits the amount of grass its cows can eat and Australia lets its cow do whatever. Australia then tells China to limit its cows more because the grass is being overgrazed. China then tells Australia to fuck off because it lets its cow eat as much as it wants, nothing gets done and all the cows starve.
 

markot

Banned
Magna Carta is over rated rubbish.

Declaration of Independence is American flim flammery.

Blackstones is a billion pages long.
 
Now this pisses me off, earlier a lib dude said the carbon tax brang in fuck all revenue, just before a labor lady said it brang in a significant amount, how can facts be interpreted so wildly differently it either did or it didnt god one is clearly lieing. Need the karl pilkington bull shit man in there.

also a labor lady earlier.... "why has the gov backflipped on the rollout out of the N........(nbn!!!!!)....DIS" lol massive deflation there.

Yeah, but do you have statistics to back that up.

You know... you could... look that up yourself!
It made $4.1 billion in 2012-13
Was projected to raise more through 2013-14.


Completely disenfranchised voters generally don't care about politics so long as they get fed or paid.

This is true to some degree I think.
And then there's also the entitled voters Howard created. When you want to win an election you just negligently use the finite profits of the mining boom to give handouts to voters in larger quantities than ever before! Than do it again and again until voters won't ever concede for the greater good ever again.

Scandinavia? Extremely high taxes where a large chunk is a contribution fund of sorts that increases when you earn a higher income. There are also a lot of other taxes that take advantage of whatever natural resources they have. This is particularly obvious with Norway, which has a natural resources tax which goes to invest in things that will help Norway in the future when such resources do not exist anymore.

Man that would be great. I wonder if we can ever get something like that here!

Yeah coz my dads always like "nothing comes free" even though it was free for him.

lol this is it. this is the problem with the approach to politics in Australia by the layperson.
Old Aussies forget how good they had it and aren't willing to let reform through nowadays because they would have to sacrifice a smidgen for the greater good. As Tim the Wiz said it's often the fuck you got mine attitude.

The frightening thing about our aging population in Australia is their growing influence.
In last year's election 48.3% of voters were over 50 and that percentage will only continue to rise.

Whitlam's decision to abolish university fees was an effort to encourage marginalized and disadvantaged groups to take part in higher education. From what I know, this didn't really work too well with those in weak socioeconomic backgrounds but it definitely encouraged a lot of middle class women to seek education that they generally would not have taken.

mmm

"According to Gough Whitlam's private secretary, Peter Wilenski, the effect of abolishing fees was "found to have had no impact on the socioeconomic distribution of the origins of university students, and was in effect a direct handout to the better off"."

The percentage of those from low SES has since been in the mid to high-teens and there's currently a target of making it over 20%. (with low SES peeps making up ~25% of the population)
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
The other big countries aren't doing it because nobody else is. The EU and our systems were a good encouragement for others to join us.

Also while we do only contribute 1% to global emissions we have the 11th highest emissions per capita and one of the highest in developed nations. Much higher than China and we edge out the US. Because of that saying that countries that are doing better than us but producing more emissions should deal with it is an incredibly unhelpful attitude.

To use an example incredibly heavily tied to a standard tragedy of the commons analogy. Australia has 1 cow and China has 1000. China limits the amount of grass its cows can eat and Australia lets its cow do whatever. Australia then tells China to limit its cows more because the grass is being overgrazed. China then tells Australia to fuck off because it lets its cow eat as much as it wants, nothing gets done and all the cows starve.
A few weeks back Tony Shepherd (of Commission of Audit infamy) said this:
...we’re 1.5% of the world's carbon dioxide. I mean we halve if, it makes no difference. We’re a rounding error. We’ve plunged into a carbon tax. We plunged into a reach scheme. Cost of energy went up. We got hit with the GFC. The dollar went through the roof. Our manufacturing - we - we cut our carbon. Yeah, we cut our carbon really dramatically but it was the GFC and the high Aussie dollar and the high energy prices that did it. We shouldn't have been the world leader, the first in. We should have followed the rest of the world and we should have been using our political power and diplomacy to push the rest of the world down pricing carbon and take it up with the rest of the world. Don't be the world leader when you’re a carbon-intensive country producing a minuscule amount of the carbon compared to the rest of the world.
"Do what we say, not what we do."
 

Dead Man

Member
Yeah, this threat is just so unwelcoming to others because people with alternate opinion etc (read the shit i posted today) are met with abuse and tantrums from some people, god forbid they get into a debate irl.

Mate, you didn't actually have any point to your opinions, you didn't back any of them up.

Also, learn from Arksy.

That's just the nature of the game. No one on any side is above getting frustrated and angry and venting about things. Hell, that means you're at least thinking about issues. It's healthy. It's politics, no politician ever gets a clean run. You gotta be able to handle the heat.

Today a very substantial piece of legislation was repealed that some people think was vital to the health of our environment and without it, we're moving towards a dire place. In their place, I would be absolutely livid. Just wait till this spy surveillance stuff comes to the fore and gets debated in parliament. I'm going to turn into a big green monster and wreck everything.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable for Jintor to be repulsed by the actions of today's parliamentary proceedings. In the same way that it's not unreasonable for someone to be repulsed that gun control was defeated in the US Senate following the Sandy Hook tragedy....or anything really.

:)
 
I really doubt there will be a significant bump in the polls.

Nevertheless I do expect a bump. It'll give us an idea of how many people actually voted them in to axe the tax. It is one of the few positive bits of publicity the government has had recently.

Boat peoples is hard to gauge with its significance in the community often said to be overestimated by the politico

There will be ongoing silence regarding boat people until the next election. Despite the initial protest and outcry when the government introduced a media blackout, the strategy of moving it out of sight and out of mind has been very successful. Mainstream media barely cover it and only people already informed regarding what is happening are actively seeking more information on it.

I suspect the next election platform they will be standing on will be based on the fact they were effective. What they did was tough, partially unpopular, but delivered.

Yeah it sucks that there fucking up the nbn (saw some rollout the other day) but it is true as turnbull says that phone reception is awful in the country and a much more important (and cheaper) fix in the mean time. Of course i want the nbn, but its more of a nerdy first world issue for now that most dont care about. Where as everyone who lives in rural areas is impacted by their shite reception.

As pointed out by others the fibre NBN effectively kills two birds with one stone. It will last longer and provide a greater return on what we spend. With the stability of the connection and lower maintenance costs of the infrastructure the phone reception issues you concern yourself about can be a thing of the past. It is worth the investment and will benefit these country regions in many other areas where services are difficult to provide do to geography. The provision of healthcare is one area I am quite interested in. Through a stable connection doctors do not need to physically be in the same room as a patient to diagnose and treat a number of conditions. The hours of driving just to see a doctor to manage chronic conditions for some of these people can be a thing of a past. However it cannot be achieved without high speed download AND upload rates. This is not what we will get under the revised NBN plan.

Tommy DJ said:
There is no justification to buying the F-35 in the numbers Abbott is planning. Its expensive, laden with technical problems, laden with design flaws, likely obsolete to Russia's fleet, and at this point probably worse at doing its job as a stealth fighter than the F-22.

I don't understand why we are committing to buy so many so early. Wouldn't it be more sound to buy a few to trial initially?

The talk of possibly buying some of the short take off variety and converting the two helicopter landing docks being constructed to use as carriers also seems like a bit of a brain fart. Perhaps I am missing something?
 
One of the main ideas behind the ETS, apart from allowing a global platform in which we could actually tell China to knock it off without looking like hypocrites, was also so they could provide a foundation for ARENA to be established on and funded through.

Now ARENA is like the Geocities of Australia.
 

Dryk

Member
The talk of possibly buying some of the short take off variety and converting the two helicopter landing docks being constructed to use as carriers also seems like a bit of a brain fart. Perhaps I am missing something?
F35-B is the only one that will meet specifications too since it's the one that's dragging the others down :p

One of the main ideas behind the ETS, apart from allowing a global platform in which we could actually tell China to knock it off without looking like hypocrites, was also so they could provide a foundation for ARENA to be established on and funded through.

Now ARENA is like the Geocities of Australia.
The University of Adelaide Centre for Energy Technology got the chair of ARENA to speak at our yearly seminar day last year (I spoke too!). The guy was really knowledgeable and passionate, I feel bad for him.

And yeah it's a good thing China might still get an ETS going on their own, because there's no way we're going to tell them to do it now. They already think the government has an overinflated sense of regional importance (and they're not wrong).

It's depressing that this bullshit sleight of hand worked.
People love to believe that something's not their problem. In the case of asylum seekers and (especially) foreign aid the cause and effect are can be so abstract nobody will notice the extra corpses next week and mouths to feed 50 years from now.
 

Dead Man

Member
There will be ongoing silence regarding boat people until the next election. Despite the initial protest and outcry when the government introduced a media blackout, the strategy of moving it out of sight and out of mind has been very successful. Mainstream media barely cover it and only people already informed regarding what is happening are actively seeking more information on it.

I suspect the next election platform they will be standing on will be based on the fact they were effective. What they did was tough, partially unpopular, but delivered.

And it will work.
 

Jintor

Member
What a day for legislative repeal. Victory for the big polluters. Hope that temporary competitive edge is worth it, given that we won't even be seeing an immediate resource tax income flow on any of our minerals being whisked away.
 

Dead Man

Member
What a day for legislative repeal. Victory for the big polluters. Hope that temporary competitive edge is worth it, given that we won't even be seeing an immediate resource tax income flow on any of our minerals being whisked away.

Hey, why should the country benefit from the minerals being taken out of it, we haven't taken any of the risk!

Fucking cunts :/
 
By the way, speaking of spy bullshit, isn't Brandis moving to try and completely nuke journalists who report snowden-style leaks? Thought I saw something on that today.


This is ridiculous. One of the best pieces of investigative journalism we had last year was regarding prisoner X the Australian/Israeli dual national being imprisoned without charge. It was similar security laws which effectively blacked out the free press in Israel and were it not for them leaking information to the ABC we would have known nothing. The ability of our press to investigate and reveal the story independently was something to be proud of. To think that in the future this may not be possible is greatly disappointing.
 
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