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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
What does it say about us that Shorten moving for votes on two bills - one being headline news with overwhelming popular support and the other having bipartisan support - is at the highest level of political gamesmanship in our federal parliament?
 

Arksy

Member
What does it say about us that Shorten moving for votes on two bills - one being headline news with overwhelming popular support and the other having bipartisan support - is at the highest level of political gamesmanship in our federal parliament?

I know this is a rhetorical question, but I'm just going to answer this straight. It says that our political system is a joke that is in dire need of reform.
 
So how do you propose privatizing the government for the further benefit of corporations ?


Sorry Arksy, not directed at you but I had to take the shot at how the word reform is often used.
 

Arksy

Member
Not sure I understand what you mean. I don't want to help big business, I kind of want to reign them in or break them up wherever possible..nor do I want them holding an disproportionate sway on politics.
 
I know, wasn't directed at you in any way.

It was just me making fun of the way that when the word "reform" is used politically or in political commentary its to mourn how the public don't want horrible things done to them for the benefit of corporations and how that kills "reform".
 

Arksy

Member
Yeah fair enough. I'm a classical liberal, the most fundamental and important unit in society is the individual, not the collective.
 

senahorse

Member
1433377263800.jpg


Doctors and teachers working in immigration detention facilities could face up to two years in prison if they speak out against conditions in the centres or provide information to journalists, under sweeping new laws to gag whistleblowers.

The Border Force Act, which was passed quietly on May 14 by both major parties, clamps down on "entrusted people" in detention centres recording or disclosing information about conditions in centres such as those on Nauru and Manus Island

Under the heading of "secrecy and disclosure provisions", the act says releasing information is only permitted by the secretary of the department responsible for detention centres.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...der-new-immigration-laws-20150603-ghft05.html

Spineless Bill strikes again.
 

Yagharek

Member
Yeah fair enough. I'm a classical liberal, the most fundamental and important unit in society is the individual, not the collective.

Everyone believe that surely? I mean, a person is the only fundamental unit of society. It's not like a nucleon which could be made up of any three quarks.

The differences start when you start to weigh up relative importances of rights versus responsibilities. This is also the first step where Libertarianism fails.
 

Arksy

Member
Everyone believe that surely? I mean, a person is the only fundamental unit of society. It's not like a nucleon which could be made up of any three quarks.

The differences start when you start to weigh up relative importances of rights versus responsibilities. This is also the first step where Libertarianism fails.

Libertarianism is not the same thing as classical liberalism. They're related no doubt, but I don't call myself a libertarian.

Also by elevating the individual above all else, I mean, building society from the ground up and not top down. I mean everyone being equal before the law, regardless of race, creed, sex, or sexual preference. I mean not allowing one group to exercise rights to the exclusion of all others. This is in stark contrast with other political doctrines which elevate the collective over the individual.
 

Yagharek

Member
I'm not accusing you of it and I'm not pretending to be fully familiar with all strains (yes, strains) of political persuasion.

Individual rights are important, and my only claim was libertarians get the balance against societal responsibility wrong.

edit: agreed that society as a whole isn't the be all either. That way leads to Machiavellian outcomes and Nauru.
 

Arksy

Member
I'm not accusing you of it and I'm not pretending to be fully familiar with all strains (yes, strains) of political persuasion.

Individual rights are important, and my only claim was libertarians get the balance against societal responsibility wrong.

My problem with libertarianism is that they think that if you merely back away from the market it will all correct itself. Which may or may not be true in the very long term, but I don't think it's that easy. When you've had forcible market distortions for hundreds of years aligning the market in the favour of the powerful, taking a sudden, unilateral move to laissez-faire will likely change nothing in the short term.

Plus, I agree with Fredescu. Big corporations are a huge threat, just as big government is.
 

Dryk

Member
My problem with libertarianism is that they think that if you merely back away from the market it will all correct itself. Which may or may not be true in the very long term, but I don't think it's that easy. When you've had forcible market distortions for hundreds of years aligning the market in the favour of the powerful, taking a sudden, unilateral move to laissez-faire will likely change nothing in the short term.

Plus, I agree with Fredescu. Big corporations are a huge threat, just as big government is.
Hey Arksy... guess what :\

The leaked draft TiSA financial services chapter shows a continuing strong push by the United States, Australia and other countries for deregulation of international financial services, an approach strongly supported by Australian banks keen to increase their business in Asian markets.

As in leaked provisions of the draft Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade agreement, the draft TiSA text includes a prohibition on laws and regulations that require service providers to host data, for example sensitive personal health data, on domestically located servers.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/wikileaks-reveals-new-trade-secrets-20150603-ghfycx.html
 

Fredescu

Member
I mean not allowing one group to exercise rights to the exclusion of all others. This is in stark contrast with other political doctrines which elevate the collective over the individual.

I think you also mean a very specific set of rights though, right? The right to act rather than a right to things. So you would possibly disagree that there's such thing as a right to health care and education?

Ultimately I think these principals you've described are too broad and simple to be a meaningful basis to organise a society around. Providing everyone free health care is a benefit to everyone, but it's not providing equal treatment to sick individuals and to healthy individuals. Providing a robust welfare state is a benefit to everyone, in that it lowers crime, and keeps a standard of demand in the economy during a downturn, but it's not providing equal treatment to employed individuals and unemployed individuals. Providing free education is a benefit to everyone, but it not providing equal treatment to the young and the old, or the childless and the families. Are we elevating the collective over the individual by asking people to pay for these things?

Marginal utility says those things have to be funded by the well off to the direct benefit of the less well off. The more well off people do benefit, by having less crime, better educated potential employees, fewer beggars in the streets, tenants and customers not suddenly dropping out of the economy due to receiving a big health care bill, or losing their job. But they're indirect benefits, so they're a lot harder to understand.

What's best for the individual isn't always what they think is best for them. In a way, I'm saying "I know what's best for people" and that shits people off. People have different areas of specialist knowledge though. Large societies are bloody complex things. You have to take your car to the mechanic to get it fixed because they have the specialist knowledge to fix it. You don't put it up for a vote. But somehow we ask everyone to vote for some of the most complex problems facing us, and instead of listening to the advice of people for whom this is their primary area of study, politics is now a big song and dance about who can give you the most stuff, or at the very least who can make you feel the most comfortable and simultaneously the most outraged.

So individual rights are cool and all, but marketing a cult of the individual and puffing up peoples egos makes them less likely to even want to pay for other peoples health problems. It seems like half the Americans on GAF think that, because they've been indoctrinated with the elevation of the individual. Trying to explain that helping the collective is also good for the individual is like talking to a brick, because all they see is a bigger tax bill, meaning they can afford one less piece of consumer garbage that they've been programmed to want.
 

wonzo

Banned
http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...-labor-candidate/story-fnjfzsax-1227382406286
A LABOR Party preselection candidate for the federal seat of Herbert has told party members to vote for him because he is a man.

In an email distributed to ALP members this week, Mark Enders said he should get the nod over his two female challengers because a “male-male” dynamic would be better suited against the LNP’s Ewen Jones at next year’s federal election.

Mr Enders’ email said there were three main reasons people should vote for him: “1. I work in public health; 2. I’m a health care worker; and 3. I’m male”.

lmao if ur a member/voter of the labor party in the year 2015
 

4. I'll never be pre-selected for a seat ever.


Edit: David Pope has been knocking it out of the park for a while now. I got a book a couple of days of political cartoons in 2008, it was the same year Pope took over from Geoff Pryor at the Crimes. Amazing how much politics has changed since then. There is not a single cartoon in it that takes Abbot and Hockey even remotely seriously. It's all about Turbull and Brenden Nelson's earring.
 

Arksy

Member
I think you also mean a very specific set of rights though, right? The right to act rather than a right to things. So you would possibly disagree that there's such thing as a right to health care and education?

Ultimately I think these principals you've described are too broad and simple to be a meaningful basis to organise a society around. Providing everyone free health care is a benefit to everyone, but it's not providing equal treatment to sick individuals and to healthy individuals. Providing a robust welfare state is a benefit to everyone, in that it lowers crime, and keeps a standard of demand in the economy during a downturn, but it's not providing equal treatment to employed individuals and unemployed individuals. Providing free education is a benefit to everyone, but it not providing equal treatment to the young and the old, or the childless and the families. Are we elevating the collective over the individual by asking people to pay for these things?

Marginal utility says those things have to be funded by the well off to the direct benefit of the less well off. The more well off people do benefit, by having less crime, better educated potential employees, fewer beggars in the streets, tenants and customers not suddenly dropping out of the economy due to receiving a big health care bill, or losing their job. But they're indirect benefits, so they're a lot harder to understand.

What's best for the individual isn't always what they think is best for them. In a way, I'm saying "I know what's best for people" and that shits people off. People have different areas of specialist knowledge though. Large societies are bloody complex things. You have to take your car to the mechanic to get it fixed because they have the specialist knowledge to fix it. You don't put it up for a vote. But somehow we ask everyone to vote for some of the most complex problems facing us, and instead of listening to the advice of people for whom this is their primary area of study, politics is now a big song and dance about who can give you the most stuff, or at the very least who can make you feel the most comfortable and simultaneously the most outraged.

So individual rights are cool and all, but marketing a cult of the individual and puffing up peoples egos makes them less likely to even want to pay for other peoples health problems. It seems like half the Americans on GAF think that, because they've been indoctrinated with the elevation of the individual. Trying to explain that helping the collective is also good for the individual is like talking to a brick, because all they see is a bigger tax bill, meaning they can afford one less piece of consumer garbage that they've been programmed to want.

That's not what I mean by collective at all. I'm talking about subgroups within society, groups like unions, corporations, subcultures (both ethnic and non-ethnic) etc. I'm not talking about providing a right to everyone, we provide health care...to individuals. We provide welfare..to individuals. Everything you mentioned does not actually subtract from the elevation of the individual over the collective.

To your second point, I'm going to take your premise. Not only is society too big and complex for any one person to understand, but people's lives are too rich and detailed for society to understand. You might say "you know best", which I feel is arrogant and best and dangerous at worst. You say you know best but do you really? You have no idea how people prioritise their lives and what matters to everyone. People have dreams and desires that only they know, making them the best people to organise their own lives. Some people prioritise their faith over their own lives, some people prioritise the attaining of wealth, others for charity, others for any number of different things.
 
That's not what I mean by collective at all. I'm talking about subgroups within society, groups like unions, corporations, subcultures (both ethnic and non-ethnic) etc. I'm not talking about providing a right to everyone, we provide health care...to individuals. We provide welfare..to individuals. Everything you mentioned does not actually subtract from the elevation of the individual over the collective.

To your second point, I'm going to take your premise. Not only is society too big and complex for any one person to understand, but people's lives are too rich and detailed for society to understand. You might say "you know best", which I feel is arrogant and best and dangerous at worst. You say you know best but do you really? You have no idea how people prioritise their lives and what matters to everyone. People have dreams and desires that only they know, making them the best people to organise their own lives. Some people prioritise their faith over their own lives, some people prioritise the attaining of wealth, others for charity, others for any number of different things.

But at some level the supremacy of the individual requires its subjugation. You can't allow someone to freely pursue their desire to murder or steal because that harms other individuals. And in less extreme cases some individuals have ideologies or beliefs that you must disfavor to be consistent: you cannot support a(n) (group of) individual(s) pursuit of collectivism or dictatorship even though neither of these necessarily do harm. There's also the tragedy of the commons problem every individual has a right to the commons but who has the responsibility ?
 

Arksy

Member
But at some level the supremacy of the individual requires its subjugation. You can't allow someone to freely pursue their desire to murder or steal because that harms other individuals. And in less extreme cases some individuals have ideologies or beliefs that you must disfavor to be consistent: you cannot support a(n) (group of) individual(s) pursuit of collectivism or dictatorship even though neither of these necessarily do harm. There's also the tragedy of the commons problem every individual has a right to the commons but who has the responsibility ?

The harm principle is pretty fundamental to liberalism. As formulated by John Stuart Mill of course. And...sure you can, I can create a co-operative or a commune or a club. I can start a political party that's communist or fascist or Taoist.
 
The harm principle is pretty fundamental to liberalism. As formulated by John Stuart Mill of course. And...sure you can, I can create a co-operative or a commune or a club. I can start a political party that's communist or fascist or Taoist.

So you're against special privileges granted to extrinsic semipermanent (I think , I can grasp the groups you're fine with getting benefits but I can't really find good words to describe them) groups but but not against the groups themselves ?

Hmmm, that makes sense I suppose. The special benefits granted to unions (strike action, group negotation) are largely a countermeasure to the special benefits granted to employers (generalized striking, rabbling rousing/union recruitment (as your political view may be) and refusal to work being illegal).
 
Alright who's writing for SBS comedy because this stuff has been hitting it out of the park all too well lately

Tampons Too Expensive To Plug Cabinet Leaks

Senior members of the Liberal party have reacted with disbelief to Prime Minister Tony Abbott warning them against sharing details of Cabinet meetings with the media, pointing out that if Abbott had agreed to remove the GST from tampons they might be affordable enough to plug the leaks. Treasurer Joe Hockey agreed last week to consult the states on removing the tax, but the idea was rejected by the PM.

Tampon companies agree, saying that their products have numerous applications outside of period protection and could reasonably be used to stem many different sorts of inconvenient flows.

"Tampons aren't just for whacking up your business before you go ocean swimming so the sharks aren't attracted to your menses," said one Carefree spokesperson. "We encourage people to think of new and innovative uses for our products, and tweet them to us using the hashtag #TamponTastic.

The Prime Minister issued the warnings in the wake of last week's devastating Cabinet leaks, in which an unnamed source informed the media that Abbott acts behind closed doors in a way that's completely consistent with expectations.

"How will the Australian people trust me if they think I'm a non-consultative, dictatorial short-term thinker who weasels out of debating my policies at every possible opportunity," complained Abbott. "It's not like that's the way I've acted consistently up to this point in time."

Feminist groups are actively opposed to the novel use of tampons, complaining that increased demand for the product will drive up prices.

"Look. You either like tampons, or you don't," said one women's organisation worker. "These male politicians can't be giggling every time they say the word and doing nothing to reduce the cost of menstruation, and then elbowing us out the way in the bathroom aisle of the supermarket to get their grubby mitts on our sanitary products."
 

senahorse

Member

Jintor

Member
Right, great logic, so now for would be kidnappers they need only find the companies whose information is kept private to decide on a target...

Most likely uncle Rupert and auntie Gina asked Tones for this exemption and he has come up with this paper thin reasoning. Btw, how many high profile kidnappings have happened lately?

heard there's a bunch of people with no criminal charges locked up in atrocious conditions on some island somewhere. naroo or something
 

mjontrix

Member
Right, great logic, so now for would be kidnappers they need only find the companies whose information is kept private to decide on a target...

Most likely uncle Rupert and auntie Gina asked Tones for this exemption and he has come up with this paper thin reasoning. Btw, how many high profile kidnappings have happened lately?

Does our democracy count as a person?
 

HolyCheck

I want a tag give me a tag
Chinese people have been in Australia since what, the early 1800s?

You would think that if a takeover was on the cards they might have made a move before 215 years had passed.

Maybe a takeover by buying Sydney properties is a secretly clever plan that took centuries to develop. Thankfully rise up Australia has it all figured out.

It's clearly a bit different.

Have you been to an auction recently? Inspected A property? There's clearly a huge shift. Especially when for sale signs come in two languages, auctions are ran in two languages.

It's not happening for the Chinese decendents that have been here since 1880.
 
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