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[Quasar]

She was using the fact that the minister was catholic to drive a wedge into government policy. It was a completely political manoeuvre that justified calling it disgusting. Bringing up her marital status and using that as a wedge against the senator is equally bad, however.

But really, I don't see whats so bad. Is it really that bad to expect a devout catholic to actually listen to the Pope?

 

[Fredescu]

But really, I don't see whats so bad. Is it really that bad to expect a devout catholic to actually listen to the Pope?

Yes, it is bad. When the next pope is a Pope John Paul esque guy that wants to ban contraception, I wouldn't want MPs campaigning along the lines of the Popes wishes.

I would expect them to weigh the Popes opinion heavily, but their job is to make the change they believe possible in the scope of their electorate. Expecting Libs to become climate change campaigners overnight because the Pope says so seems pretty unrealistic. The Popes words may affect the next administration, but it is too late to change the course of the current one.

That said, yeah they deserve to cop shit for being climate deniers.

 

[Jintor]

If you can find me a time in recent history that a politician has said, "I'm catholic, vote for me." I'll be happy to indulge. - It's a pretty silly proposition given that most of the ALP front bench is catholic, and about half of the coalition front bench is also catholic.

i'm not coming at this from a specifically catholic, right or left perspective; it's purely a 'use of religion' thing.

I also just wanted to add that this is stupid, this is a majority protestant country and protestants revel in their long and proud history of anti-Catholicism. For roughly, I dunno, a half dozen centuries?

right, but the message wasn't about how persecuted they were by the protestants, it was by the greens

 

[Arksy]

But really, I don't see whats so bad. Is it really that bad to expect a devout catholic to actually listen to the Pope?

"So Ed Husic, we are currently in the month of Ramadan, will you be observing doctrine and abstaining from food during sunlight, like the scriptures say you should be, well, huh? I think I saw you drinking a beer last week. What do you have to say about that? Answer the damn question!"*

*May or may not be exaggerated for effect.

 

[Shaneus]

If you can find me a time in recent history that a politician has said, "I'm catholic, vote for me." I'll be happy to indulge. - It's a pretty silly proposition given that most of the ALP front bench is catholic, and about half of the coalition front bench is also catholic.

They're not calling on religion directly, but what religion stands for. Saying marriage should be between a man and a woman is not a specific Catholic-only rhetoric, but it's an obvious appeal to stringent Catholic ideals and those who follow them. Especially when they preface it with "The bible states...". And given that a lot of the stick-in-the-mud right-wing supporters oppose both gay marriage and wind turbines, I think it's perfectly adequate to call them out on it and politicise it.


Not sure what the intent of this post was, but whatever?

 

[Arksy]

They're not calling on religion directly, but what religion stands for. Saying marriage should be between a man and a woman is not a specific Catholic-only rhetoric, but it's an obvious appeal to stringent Catholic ideals and those who follow them. Especially when they preface it with "The bible states...".

I'd agree with you if I believed they were only saying that to appeal to the public, I don't think it's fair to say that Tony Abbott doesn't genuinely believe it himself. Not to mention there's a fair few Catholics on both sides that now support same-sex marriage.

The point was yes, I'm sure that being catholic has gained him supporters, but I don't think it's anything as cynical as saying, "vote for me because I'm catholic", which might then validate some criticisms about distancing yourself from catholic doctrine. There is a world of difference from gaining support simply because you're catholic, and therefore share a number of beliefs, and campaigning on the fact that you're catholic.

 

[Shaneus]

I'd agree with you if I believed they were only saying that to appeal to the public, I don't think it's fair to say that Tony Abbott doesn't genuinely believe it himself. Not to mention there's a fair few Catholics on both sides that now support same-sex marriage.

True. But those that don't almost always fall back on their religion to back them up. Because that's all their is for them, really.

 

[Jintor]

There is a world of difference from gaining support simply because you're catholic, and therefore share a number of beliefs, and campaigning on the fact that you're catholic.

Would you say campaigning on religious grounds (aside from our old buddy Fred Nile) is a more American-style thing to do?

 

[Fredescu]

I don't think it's fair to say that Tony Abbott doesn't genuinely believe it himself.

The annoying thing about Abbott specifically is he will invoke religion where it doesn't really suit the context. The famous "Jesus knew there was a place for everything" for example.

 

[Arksy]

Liberal backbencher Alex Hawke told Fairfax Media it was not the first time the ABC had provided a platform for extremist views on the program.

"It's almost as if the ABC is engaged in some form of sedition," he said.

"They have utterly no regard for what they are doing on this show and the people who will suffer the most is the moderate Islamic community in Australia," he said.

"If you're going to get someone to say the citizenship laws are questionable and invalid but why would you pick someone who has threatened to kill Commonwealth officials?"

What a fucking moron.

 

[Jintor]

The question asker: obviously an idiot

the LNP reaction: possibly stupider

i guess this was the Q&A debacle I was hearing so much about

 

[Arksy]

What he said would've been completely justified if he hadn't just called the ABC traitors.

I don't even see the big problem, I've always personally believed giving idiots a platform is the best way for them to discredit themselves. The guy was just making a point, he might've been right or wrong, but the whole point of Q&A and political debate is to talk about things, even things that are scary, worrying or uncomfortable.

Forcing this debate underground isn't going to help combat extremism, it's actually going to help grow extremism. The best response would be to get extremists to try to speak out.

 

[Fredescu]

The question asker: obviously an idiot

His point that the west is responsible for radicalising Muslims was completely valid and people are attacking him personally for it rather than addressing the point. It's so shit.

 

[Jintor]

that point was valid and it's lost in the noise now because now the abc are seditious or some shit

 

[Fredescu]

that point was valid and it's lost in the noise now because now the abc are seditious or some shit

A reasonable discussion about the feelings of brown people seriously undermines the authority of the government, so yeah possibly true.

 

[Arksy]

Today, we have politicians calling out politicians on marital status, religious affiliation and we have politicians shutting down debate, making the platform apologise and then calling them traitors.

The state of debate in this country sometimes shits me to fucking tears.

 

[Jintor]

i mean i don't follow other country's internal politics too much but i think theoretically we're still on the better end of the spectrum

 

[Shaneus]

i mean i don't follow other country's internal politics too much but i think theoretically we're still on the better end of the spectrum

Theoretically, yes.

Practically?

 

[Fredescu]

The state of debate in this country sometimes shits me to fucking tears.

Where is it better? It's pretty damn bad at the moment, but I'm not so convinced that it's specific to this country.

 

[Arksy]

i mean i don't follow other country's internal politics too much but i think theoretically we're still on the better end of the spectrum

Sigh, you're right.

Still, this is fucking Australia. We've got one of the most stable countries in existence, we're an offshoot of the country that fucking invented parliamentary democracy and constitutional liberty and then exported it to the rest of the world. We're one of the most educated, richest and most developed countries in the world. We've managed to well balance rights and liberties and entitlements to the point where we have strong workers rights in a thriving market economy...we have a robust public health care system with enough scope that a private system can exist..we have strong fundamental rights and liberties while giving parliament the scope to legislate on things that matter...and today I see shit that occurs as a matter of course in Turkish politics, where people accuse the press of being traitors and not falling into line, and using people's ethnic minority or religious minority against them for being an Alevi or a Kurd.

We should be holding ourselves to the highest standard.

 

[Jintor]

Agreed.

 

[Fredescu]

Things are looking pretty grim when everyone agrees with Arksy.

In the meantime, Abbott has told the party room that Q&A is a "lefty lynch mob" and "and government will look at doing something on this".

Yay censorship threats.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I think there's a difference between calling someone out on religious affiliation and calling someone out on being hypocritical about religious affiliation. The things that Catholic LNP members are deeply devout about seems to dovetail pretty nicely with LNP policy while things that would clash with it tend to get cast aside pretty damn quick.

 

[Fredescu]

Abbott starting a press conference. It's a ten flagger.

 

[Elaugaufein]

At this rate a standard media conference is going to require every flag in the country by the election.

 

[wonzo]

Things are looking pretty grim when everyone agrees with Arksy.

In the meantime, Abbott has told the party room that Q&A is a "lefty lynch mob" and "and government will look at doing something on this".

Yay censorship threats.

how soft do you have to be to catch feels over something as pissweak as qanda

 

[Shaneus]

Abbott starting a press conference. It's a ten flagger.

Hm. Predictions on what it's for? VPN?

 

[Fredescu]

At this rate a standard media conference is going to require every flag in the country by the election.

"Abbott is holding a press conference" is the new "EB is having a sale".

 

[Shaneus]

"Abbott is holding a press conference" is the new "EB is having a sale".

Soon Abbott will use as many Australian flags as EB use "sale" signage.

 

[Jintor]

Hm. Predictions on what it's for? VPN?

government internet... thingy... did pass the... i forget. senate? this morning

sorry, it's really humid and i'm distracted atm and i've really learned to hate aussie politics

 

[Elaugaufein]

The site blocking bill. Labor fulfilled its quota of kissing US corporate ass. Bonus points for voting down an amendment that would prohibit it from it being used to block things for political/censorship reasons.

 

[wonzo]

the grauniad owns

 

[Shaneus]

The site blocking bill. Labor fulfilled its quota of kissing US corporate ass. Bonus points for voting down an amendment that would prohibit it from it being used to block things for political/censorship reasons.

:/

Seriously, fuck Labor.

 

[Fredescu]

the grauniad owns

Good read, thanks.

 

[Jintor]

tbh i think the abc attempting to back down from this and calling it an error in judgement is weak. if the politicians want to play ball then damn well play ball

i guess it's not my job/funding on the line though

 

[Fredescu]

tbh i think the abc attempting to back down from this and calling it an error in judgement is weak. if the politicians want to play ball then damn well play ball

i guess it's not my job/funding on the line though

Interesting timing between that and this: http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...erview-the-timid-abc-is-rewarding-tony-abbott

 

[A More Normal Bird]

I think there's a difference between calling someone out on religious affiliation and calling someone out on being hypocritical about religious affiliation. The things that Catholic LNP members are deeply devout about seems to dovetail pretty nicely with LNP policy while things that would clash with it tend to get cast aside pretty damn quick.

This. For a second there I thought I'd entered some sort of bizarro world where the likes of Brandis and Abbott don't frequently make public reference to their beliefs and integrate their religion with their politics. Waters didn't call them heretic scum or ask for their excommunication. Much like when Brandis called Wong a bigot this reaction reaffirms my theory that many members of the Coalition have a fundamental misunderstanding of what bigotry and discrimination are.

 

[Shaneus]

From Labor's FB:

Hi Andrew Martin. Having consulted extensively with Australian artists, musicians, filmmakers and others involved in our creative industries, as well as with consumer groups, Labor believes that action is needed to reduce current levels of online piracy in Australia. The enforcement of copyright law is vital to our creative industries. Online piracy damages our economy and destroys Australian jobs.

This Bill plays a part in addressing the problem of online piracy, but includes safeguards to ensure the new measures will not have unintended consequences for legitimate internet activities. The Bill allows the Federal Court to require Australian ISPs to block a website hosted overseas if the Court is satisfied that the website’s primary purpose is to infringe copyright or facilitate the infringement of copyright. The Bill makes it clear that this power is not to be used lightly, and is directed at the worst offshore piracy websites – sites which deliberately and flagrantly violate copyright.

The Bill does not provide for any sort of internet ‘filter’. Artists and their representatives will have to go to the Federal Court, on a case-by-case basis, and convince the Court that an order should be made. If these were Australian websites, they would be able to be taken down through the normal operation of our copyright law.

Labor closely scrutinised the provisions of the Bill in the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee to ensure the Bill would not restrict legitimate internet activities. Labor does not support the use of site-blocking against Virtual Private Network (VPN) services and we have made sure that this Bill does not allow for VPNs to be blocked. We are satisfied that VPNs, which have a range of legitimate uses, would not meet the ‘primary purpose’ test required by the Bill. However, to avoid any doubt, we have asked the Government to revise the Bill’s Explanatory Memorandum to make this clear.

Labor understands the concerns that some people have about these new laws, but we are confident that the Bill strikes the right balance.

Fake edit: I think the person manning their FB must have some solid carpal-tunnel kicking in right now, I've seen that same copypasta at least 30 times on their page. Laughable, their repetition is starting to make them sound like Abbott.

 

[Yagharek]

Today, we have politicians calling out politicians on marital status, religious affiliation and we have politicians shutting down debate, making the platform apologise and then calling them traitors.

The state of debate in this country sometimes shits me to fucking tears.

It doesn't actually constitute debate these days. It's just shitflinging based on bare minimum of actual content and facts.

 

[Dryk]

If someone was a dumb radical kid and ASIO is keeping a close eye on them now that they are trying to reform. Surely they're an asset we should be keeping around.

 

[Fredescu]

If someone was a dumb radical kid and ASIO is keeping a close eye on them now that they are trying to reform. Surely they're an asset we should be keeping around.

Yep:

the grauniad owns

"Years later, I’m on good terms with Asio and counter-terrorism police. I meet with them regularly, they shout me a coffee, we chat about Syria and national security. They know I’m an idiot at times, they know I like to stir the pot. They would have watched last night laughing and shaking their heads. "

 

[Dryk]

I mean there's no guarantee he's telling the truth right now but surely someone could drop ASIO a line and ask. From what I've seen reformed criminals are really good law enforcement tools because they have insight that isn't shared by a lot of people working in the area. But I guess ignoring the problem/making it worse is the "common sense" way to go about it so we'll do that.

 

[Arksy]

This. For a second there I thought I'd entered some sort of bizarro world where the likes of Brandis and Abbott don't frequently make public reference to their beliefs and integrate their religion with their politics. Waters didn't call them heretic scum or ask for their excommunication. Much like when Brandis called Wong a bigot this reaction reaffirms my theory that many members of the Coalition have a fundamental misunderstanding of what bigotry and discrimination are.

Being intolerant of different beliefs is the definition of bigotry.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

Being intolerant of different beliefs is the definition of bigotry.

Where was the intolerance in her questions?

 

[Arksy]

Where was the intolerance in her questions?

I don't know, who called her a bigot? I took a look at the clip and there was a little bit of shouting, and someone withdraw a comment..but I couldn't hear what it was. It wasn't Brandis. He said her comments were disgusting.

Edit: It was Matt Canavan, who withdrew and then apologised, and then rightly blasted Sen. Waters for religious dog-whistling.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I'm still not seeing it. If someone uses their religion to justify certain policies it seems quite reasonable to ask them why they lack consistency when their religion is inconvenient to policy. There's also no dog whistling there I can see considering she was explicitly addressing religion. There were no code words or phrases implying things about Catholics.

There's also roughly 0 reason why she would given that Greens are disproportionately atheist and agnostic which is an even smaller group than Catholics in this country so drawing attention to it would be counter productive.

 

[danm999]

This Waters move is going to do them no favours when the Supreme Court hands down its ruling on same sex marriage soon and the issue is back in the public eye.

 

[Jintor]

Well Abbott's gone and made a fucking press conference about the ABC giving someone a voice so everybody aboard the fucking sedition train

I mean, fucking really? Seriously? An MP says effectively you shouldn't have been acquitted, i'll see you out on your arse, fuck the rule of law and everyone joins in and says yeah, ABC, how dare you let this guy who was acquitted say his piece?

what's wrong with this picture? what's wrong with this country? do people think the rule of law is only for people you like?

 

[Elaugaufein]

Well Abbott's gone and made a fucking press conference about the ABC giving someone a voice so everybody aboard the fucking sedition train

I mean, fucking really? Seriously? An MP says effectively you shouldn't have been acquitted, i'll see you out on your arse, fuck the rule of law and everyone joins in and says yeah, ABC, how dare you let this guy who was acquitted say his piece?

what's wrong with this picture? what's wrong with this country? do people think the rule of law is only for people you like?

Yes. The argument given was that he was only acquitted because they aren't allowed to apply laws retroactively. The horror! Even if it was true thats a good thing.

 

[Arksy]

The best part is when Abbott called him a convicted criminal...

He was acquitted....which means he could probably sue for defamation right there.