Australian raids twarted ISIS beheading plot, wow.
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Do I look like a fucking caricature to you?
Yep. Pretty poor by both lots. Australia gonna Australia
Yup.
Indeed.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
There's a bit of confusion in this thread and in the media as well. The raids were in two cities and although only four people have been charged so far 15 people were detained. It takes a lot to co-ordinate and synchronise between so many targets and it seems there was collaboration between NSW Police, QLD Police, AFP (Federal Police) and ASIO (Domestic Intelligence). I doubt there was any significant decrease from the usual police presence in other parts of Sydney or Brisbane.
Authorities had been aware of the plot, or potential for it, since May and were monitoring those involved. The police have stated that the reason they took this course was because they felt the random nature of the potential attacks were something they couldn't adequately protect the public from, unlike say, a specific bomb threat or similar targeted attack. So whilst the scale of the raids is unprecedented, the scale of the threat may not have been. I'm not sure if that constitutes an overreaction by the police, but some of the media reporting may be.
At this stage it looks like the plot sits somewhere between "bumbling ideologues" and "co-ordinated terror cell". They had weapons, some illegal, and were receiving if not orders, then "exhortations" from an Australian who was a senior ISIS figure fighting in the ME, but the plot itself seems to have been as simple as it was barbaric.
Terror plots are thwarted on a weekly basis. The idea behind preventing terrorism is to not create panic.
The fact is was all over the news, multiple mediums under the pretense of "BE VIGILANT. LOOK OVER YOUR SHOULDER. IN YOUR BACKYARD" is very very very interesting by the AFP/NSW/QLD Police.
Color me skeptical
Darren870
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Well said and very true. Between 2 major cities and 4 different police personal, 800 isn't as excessive as it is being reported.
It's not like 800 cops rushed into one house. There is other things, such as closing roads, securing communities, backends and such that all come into play.
Escape Goat
Member
I have no idea who you are but it sounds like you need to relax.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
There is more than what the media is picking up on just the Sydney beheading. Parliament was a target and a few others too. The plots go deeper than one civilian, media spin once again.
Now we have Muslim protesters complaining about how the raids were carried out? Really?
Now we have Muslim protesters complaining about how the raids were carried out? Really?
Go on....
Maybe after a couple of coldies.
Not my intention, but I knew someone would make that comment eventually. lol
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
As I mentioned Parliament was a target and on one end of the phone call is the top recruiter. They're going after the source of multiple and future threats, not just the beheading plot.
ASIO also have an overseas intercept of standing orders for an attack on home Australian soil. Some of these resources are also dedicated to being present overseas for the new persons allying with ISIL and going overseas.
The more reasonable interpretation might be that this was intended as a show of force to these and other such groups. They might not have been able to charge all of the people who were detained, but these people will know they're being watched and the moment there is any plot developing the full force of both Federal and State authorities will descend upon them.
Ah kk, that was all in the paper today, I thought you had extra info.
No. The death penalty was abolished decades ago.
There's no doubt Abbot is using the Ukraine crisis and ISIS situation to detract from his ineptitude but I doubt he manufactured this. Some of the laws this clown is trying to push through are very worrying though. What they have now is more than sufficient to take care of terrorists.
Federal police are somewhat like the FBI and ASIO more like the CIA(this is a very basic interpretation but it works here) so a large portion of the manpower would come from there. Any local units drawn into it would have been those whose job directly relates to raids like these. ie, traffic containment, special investigators, swat teams.
Federal police are somewhat like the FBI and ASIO more like the CIA(this is a very basic interpretation but it works here) so a large portion of the manpower would come from there. Any local units drawn into it would have been those whose job directly relates to raids like these. ie, traffic containment, special investigators, swat teams.
Of course, the people that would be aimed would have got the message anyway though word of mouth. No need for the massive hype and fear mongering.
Yeah, that's my concern. It's classic politicians work. Play up an existing situation to pass unneeded laws or reclaim ground in the polls. Children overboard, anyone?
Crocodile.
Add paperbag too, amirite?
Well, they can't all be as pretty as us.
I think a 'shock and awe' campaign has an added value to it.
In any case, most of the responsibility for hyping up the raids sits on the shoulders of the media. And the main reason for the hype was the nature of the threat: a random beheading in Sydney's CBD. Regardless of the extent of the police response, a story like that was always going to dominate the headlines and scare a lot of people, especially given what we have seen coming out of Iraq over the past few weeks.
As have I. They're both pretty delicious prepared the right way.
Funnelweb spider.
The fact they caught them like this is proof enough the laws are fine as they are. Sadly, these events will be used as an excuse to go for even more.
Thinking back, I do think it's fair to say that Abbot was in the loop on this very early. He started winding the rhetoric up a couple of weeks back giving tough speeches on ISIS and also raising concerns over domestic terrorism. Knowing that these guys were being monitored 24/7 and had nowhere else to run, he's prepared amendments to legislation that would give ASIO(and independant contractors) carte blanche do anything short of murder basically. This has all been orchestrated very well by the Libs.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...senator-david-leyonhjelm-20140918-10inlj.html
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...senator-david-leyonhjelm-20140918-10inlj.html
I don't think that necessarily follows.
Is this the only plot currently in development?
Even if it is, do the laws as they stand allow authorities to deal with future threats (which may be organised using different means)?
What evidence is there the current laws aren't good enough? I want proof that they're not before I'll consider giving up an freedoms, what ifs aren't enough. All I'm seeing is proof that they are good enough, the plot was foiled.
There's no way to tell unless you're someone who is specifically aware of the details of the surveillance systems in place I guess, so I can only argue based on what I know which is just public knowledge.
I'm just worried that these sorts of events are going to get used for pushing through stronger laws than are needed.
I mean, what happens if the terrorists start using carrier pigeons or some other low tech method? Do we put birds on the watch list or do we ban feeding them at train stations? I know this comes across as being facetious but the whole history of spying and espionage is one of measure and countermeasures - it will never end. Where is the line where we say "this is an acceptable risk, and this is the kind of stuff we don't want you to be able to spy on"?
That's a discussion that doesn't seem to be given as much time as it deserves.
Or do we just assume now that privacy must be surrendered for the appearance of safety?
Fair enough. I don't disagree with any of this.
I certainly agree that the debate you're referring to needs to happen, and it should happen in circumstances of calm reflection, not in the frightened aftermath of a plot like this.
Unfortunately, the nature of legislating for national security is that producing 'proof' of the limitations in current procedure is either difficult or very dangerous. But once again, one plot being foiled is not proof the current laws are good enough.
Are you saying torture is necessary in order to make Australia safe? Should ASIO or ASIS be allowed to tap your computer if they suspect your neighbour is a terrorist? Let's not pretend we don't know what the changes being proposed are and what the government would do if it could.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-16/george-brandis-unveils-expanded-spy-agency-powers/5602072
I think we're on the same page, yeah. I appreciate your question above which I quoted (i.e. what necessarily follows).
It makes it hard to have a nuanced discussion when the most significant information that would inform debate won't ever be known until at least 30 years from now if it ever gets declassified.
No to your first question. Torture is not only abhorrent, it is almost useless as a means of extracting meaningful intelligence.
Regarding your second question, I will give a qualified yes.
Of those new powers, the second proposal is the only one I have reservations about, but I would have to read the details of the legislation (is it available?). I would expect the law to define very carefully when third-party computers can be accessed (e.g. by imposing a requirement that they can be used to access third-party computers only where there is no practical alternative to accessing the suspect's computer directly).
I also support the mandatory retention of metadata for two years. The data should be held by the carriers - requiring the authorities to specifically request an individual's records. Considering the extent of information already collected by companies like Google and Facebook, and foreign intelligence agencies, I'm not too outraged by the idea that our intelligence services are getting more data to work with.
About to have dinner here but here's the document.
http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo.../toc_pdf/1417820.pdf;fileType=application/pdf
Thanks man, I'll read it over the weekend. It's Friday night and I feel like I should be drinking right now...
Yep. I don't doubt these were legitimate arrests, but I'm about as scared as I would be if the attacks actually happened. I don't think this is wholly unintentional. Abbott gonna Abbott.
I actually live in the area of Sydney that these raids occurred in.
Seriously, a lot of people in the Western Suburbs are bad eggs... We have multiple shootings and car explosions throughout the week although in different suburbs but in close proximity.
Recently, a large group of Afghani young males from Western Suburb, Auburn, formed a hate group that vowed to harm others, especially Australians. They ended up stabbing one kid in a park before a public shaming put and end to that group.
There is a very Anti-Anyone who isn't from
The Middle East agenda pushed by young males in the Western Suburbs. My only guess is not being exposed to or unwilling to accept the multi-cultural aspect of Australia (The Western Suburbs might as well be the Middle East sprinkled with a bit of China)
Seriously, a lot of people in the Western Suburbs are bad eggs... We have multiple shootings and car explosions throughout the week although in different suburbs but in close proximity.
Recently, a large group of Afghani young males from Western Suburb, Auburn, formed a hate group that vowed to harm others, especially Australians. They ended up stabbing one kid in a park before a public shaming put and end to that group.
There is a very Anti-Anyone who isn't from
The Middle East agenda pushed by young males in the Western Suburbs. My only guess is not being exposed to or unwilling to accept the multi-cultural aspect of Australia (The Western Suburbs might as well be the Middle East sprinkled with a bit of China)
Miles Quaritch
Member
Doesn't Murdoch have a stranglehold on the media in AUS?
Seems pretty obvious why they'd be willing to be played like trouts if that's the case.
TwiztidElf
Member
I don't believe a damn thing the Australian media or government say anymore. They're barely better than the "terrorists".
And from out of left field...
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