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[zoukka]

In my experience most people are for the death penalty in certain cases, even ones who claim not to be. If you agree that it's okay to execute people like Saddam, Hitler, Osama or Assad then you are for the death penalty. You just think it should only be applied in certain cases. Some people stop at evil dictators and others stop at drug trafficking or rape. I don't think it makes you uncivilized if you think Hitler deserves the death penalty.

First of all dictators are often judged and faced in times of war. We are talking about civil legislation here. And just like Breivik didn't get special treatment from his government, so should nobody else.

Indonesia probably the biggest base of drug user, I hear its have 5-8 million of narcotics addict, pretty high of dead from ODs too. If any crime deserve death sentence, its this one.

If anything thing like this should more often, but Indonesia is corrupt as fuck.. there's plenty that escape from life-imprisonment with bribe, the drug boss.

A corrupt system that executes people because nothing else works. You expect me to agree on anything they currently are doing there?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

First of all dictators are often judged and faced in times of war. We are talking about civil legislation here. And just like Breivik didn't get special treatment from his government, so should nobody else.

Okay what if they surrender like Saddam? Should they still be executed or do you still consider it to be at-war if the person isn't even fighting back?

 

[zoukka]

Okay what if they surrender like Saddam? Should they still be executed or do you still consider it to be at-war if the person isn't even fighting back?

Well obviously this is an example of the most extreme nature. But yes I would like these people getting no special treatment. Then again political leaders enjoy special treatment from the day they are elected.

 

[Raad]

Being from Australia, the drug laws in Indonesia are very well known. Not too long before this a young girl named Schapelle Corby received 20 years for 2kg of weed that she was trying to smuggle in!


The 2 men with the death penalties are not the mules. These 2 men are the ring leaders that were caught before leaving the country. The mules received life sentences.


Any death penalty decision is always going to be met with criticism, but understand that the drug laws in Indonesia are known by every Australian. This is nothing new and will happen again.


Posters line the airports detailing the death penalty for drug smugglers. I have some sympathy for them in that it is a terrible way to go - the firing squad. However, they took the chance that would have made them good money if successful. With that was also the chance of being caught.


They took that on and deserve to be dealt the same punishment and the only power that should have the ability to change it is Indonesia.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Well obviously this is an example of the most extreme nature. But yes I would like these people getting no special treatment. Then again political leaders enjoy special treatment from the day they are elected.

By "no special treatment" do you mean no death penalty?

 

[victreeb3l]

hard to feel bad for them. death might be excessive but im pretty damn sure they knew the consequences if they get caught in that country

 

[Angry Fork]

Most ethical ethics?
I'd go with most 'humane and righteous' to discuss this, and that would say that 'killing is wrong and never justifiable, and for that, always punishable (punishment may vary ) in any form'.
Would you agree with the notion above?

It is justifiable in times of war and self defense, depending on the circumstances.

In my experience most people are for the death penalty in certain cases, even ones who claim not to be. If you agree that it's okay to execute people like Saddam, Hitler, Osama or Assad then you are for the death penalty. You just think it should only be applied in certain cases. Some people stop at evil dictators and others stop at drug trafficking or rape. I don't think it makes you uncivilized if you think Hitler deserves the death penalty.

Thinking someone deserves death and hiring a state henchman to actually do it are 2 different things. Human sacrifice in peace time is uncivilized and unnecessary, I am against it in all cases. Even for despots, as they are already captured and won't harm anyone else. Killing them for the purpose of making people feel better is not a good enough reason in my opinion, this argument can be used to justify torture as well.

If Hitler was captured alive I think it would be a huge waste of an opportunity to kill him rather than have many interviews, allow him to write his thoughts on certain events/ideas, have people analyze and discuss them etc. Extensions of prison time do enough for any evil person.

 

[PaulloDEC]

If I could click my fingers and get them life in prison rather than death, I'd do it.

Beyond that, they accepted the risks when they chose to smuggle drugs in a country like Indonesia. I'm sorry they made such awful choices with their lives, but they set themselves up for this.

 

[zoukka]

By "no special treatment" do you mean no death penalty?

In my personal opinion there a civilized culture has no place for the death penalty.

death might be excessive but im pretty damn sure they knew the consequences if they get caught in that country

I hope you people don't apply this logic generally to everything.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Could hardly care less. A lot of lives could have been ruined by those drugs.

If you can't do the time then don't do the crime. So I suspect in their case, time's up.

How much hardly?

 

[shanshan310]

no sympathy, you go into other countries and break the law...you pay their price.

I wouldn't wish anyone to be killed the way Indonesia executes people. Sure it was dumb but not "you deserve to be tied to a wooden cross and shot by 12 people in a disgusting Balinese prison without notice" dumb. They get locked up for 20 years, I would be completely okay with that, but the death penalty is awful and barbaric.

One of the Bali Nine's fathers knew about it and called Australian customs to stop them. Australian customs told them Indonesian authorities instead. I feel most awful for him. The government had the opportunity to arrest and sentence them in Australia but chose to make them a warning instead.

Every Australian at least knows of Indonesia's tough drug laws. I'm not a fan of them but you're stupid if you break them.

Most Australians probably only know because of these guys.

 

[Laughing Banana]

If Hitler was captured alive I think it would be a huge waste of an opportunity to kill him rather than have many interviews, allow him to write his thoughts on certain events/ideas, have people analyze and discuss them etc. Extensions of prison time do enough for any evil person.

Huh.

Won't you risk creating people with the same principle as him? One of them might even crazy enough to actually do something about it.

 

[Raad]

Most Australians probably only know because of these guys.

Incorrect, this is one case of many.
It's been happening for years. Just saying that shows how little you actually know or how little thought you put into what you said.

 

[MrCookiepants]

What is with some of you...

Nobody is saying they should be released. They'd still serve a lifetime in prison, but they don't need to die.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

It is justifiable in times of war and self defense, depending on the circumstances.



Thinking someone deserves death and hiring a state henchman to actually do it are 2 different things. Human sacrifice in peace time is uncivilized and unnecessary, I am against it in all cases. Even for despots, as they are already captured and won't harm anyone else. Killing them for the purpose of making people feel better is not a good enough reason in my opinion, this argument can be used to justify torture as well.

If Hitler was captured alive I think it would be a huge waste of an opportunity to kill him rather than have many interviews, allow him to write his thoughts on certain events/ideas, have people analyze and discuss them etc. Extensions of prison time do enough for any evil person.

So if a maniac invades your country and kills 7 million people and 20% of your population, but surrenders in the end, you are going to give him interviews and publish his ideas? I'm not saying you're wrong but don't you think you are being a bit unrealistic here?

 

[zoukka]

Huh.

Won't you risk creating people with the same principle as him? One of them might even crazy enough to actually do something about it.

Dead tyrants become martyrs to their followers and are MUCH more of an inspiration than some rotting old man who has to face his humanity and frailty after being dethroned from his godly seat of power, don't you think?

So if a maniac invades your country and kills 7 million people and 20% of your population, but surrenders in the end, you are going to give him interviews and publish his ideas? I'm not saying you're wrong but don't you think you are being a bit unrealistic here?

You are grasping straws here. You are basically using the worst possible scenario as an example and somehow want us to apply it to normal civil legislation. No amount of legislation can stop a whole nation from killing some tyrant that committed genocide. But that doesn't mean we should write laws based on such insanely rare incidents.

 

[shanshan310]

Incorrect, this is one case of many.
It's been happening for years. Just saying that shows how little you actually know or how little thought you put into what you said.

Sorry, I've really only heard of this case and Corby. But I certainly had no idea of the drug laws until those two cases.

 

[xbhaskarx]

Sounds a lot like the Midnight Express

Yup, or Return to Paradise (1998) with Vince Vaughn, Anne Heche, and Joaquin Phoenix for one that's actually set right in Southeast Asia...

imdb.com/title/tt0124595/

Joseph Ruben's "Return to Paradise" is a thriller that traps its characters in an exquisite dilemma involving life and death. Lewis, Sheriff and Tony are three Americans who meet in Malaysia and fool around in cheap huts on the beach, "God's own bathtub," enjoying the rum, the girls and the hashish. Sheriff and Tony return to New York. Lewis plans to go on to Borneo for a Greenpeace project to protect the orangutan. Instead, he's arrested for possession of the leftover hash and sentenced to death.

Two years pass before Sheriff (Vince Vaughn) and Tony (David Conrad) are contacted in Manhattan and told all of this by Lewis' advocate, Beth (Anne Heche). The problem, she explains, is that Lewis (Joaquin Phoenix) was over the legal limit for possession by one person, making him a trafficker, not a user. However, she's cut a deal with the authorities. If Sheriff and Tony will return to Malaysia and testify that they all owned the hashish together, Lewis will be allowed to live, and Sheriff and Tony will each have to spend three years apiece in prison. If only one of them returns, it'll be six years.

Also (not nearly as good) Brokedown Palace (1999) with Claire Danes, Kate Beckinsale, and Bill Pullman...

 

[Macsta]

I actually went to school with the `ring leader` andrew chan. He was a good kid, but was obviously heading down the wrong path with the crew he was hanging with...

 

[Angry Fork]

Huh.

Won't you risk creating people with the same principle as him? One of them might even crazy enough to actually do something about it.

Hitler isn't the mother bee telepathically linked to all the soldier bee's, killing him wouldn't end Nazism. If anything he'd be seen as a martyr by neo-nazi's, either way his memory would fuel their obsession.

So if a maniac invades your country and kills 7 million people and 20% of your population, but surrenders in the end, you are going to give him interviews and publish his ideas? I'm not saying you're wrong but don't you think you are being a bit unrealistic here?

No that isn't unrealistic. Assuming he is captured he is no longer a threat to the world and will remain in prison until death. I don't think torture or human sacrifice for revenge purposes is ethical.

As for publishing ideas, the general public should have a right to know why he killed their friends/family no? Or is everyone just going to plug their ears, have someone else inject the needle, and then pretend everything goes away just like that?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Dead tyrants become martyrs to their followers and are MUCH more of an inspiration than some rotting old man who has to face his humanity and frailty after being dethroned from his godly seat of power, don't you think?



You are grasping straws here. You are basically using the worst possible scenario as an example and somehow want us to apply it to normal civil legislation. No amount of legislation can stop a whole nation from killing some tyrant that committed genocide. But that doesn't mean we should write laws based on such insanely rare incidents.

Not always. If someone had shot Anders on the spot we wouldn't have ridiculous rhetoric which reads like erotic fanfic for the already riled up far right wing European nationalists.

I am not saying that you should introduce the death penalty just because you would kill a despot in unlikely scenario #274626. I am just contesting your idea of giving the death penalty as being uncivilized and barbaric.

 

[Aaron]

These guys knew the risks, but the death penalty is inhuman. We should have developed enough as a culture by this point to abandon it entirely.

 

[Raad]

Sorry, I've really only heard of this case and Corby. But I certainly had no idea of the drug laws until those two cases.

Have you ever travelled to Indonesia? If you ever had and you had your eyes open at the airport you would know.

 

[H2Yo]

Indonesia is really weird. On the plane they give you a slip that says drug trafficking is punishable by death. Then you get there and everyones selling shrooms cause its considered 'natural.'

Haha everything you said is 100% true.

 

[Fusebox]

Incorrect, this is one case of many.
It's been happening for years. Just saying that shows how little you actually know or how little thought you put into what you said.

Have you ever travelled to Indonesia? If you ever had and you had your eyes open at the airport you would know.

Read your posts, you're being a jerk dude. I think it's fair to presume that most Australians who hadn't been to Indonesia and/or don't take drugs probably didn't know about their draconian drug laws until the Corby case.

 

[zoukka]

Not always. If someone had shot Anders on the spot we wouldn't have ridiculous rhetoric which reads like erotic fanfic for the already riled up far right wing European nationalists.

Breivik was devastated when he was announced mentally ill. That did send a message to people everywhere.

I am just contesting your idea of giving the death penalty as being uncivilized and barbaric.

Well I hope my view is clear now to you

 

[shanshan310]

Have you ever travelled to Indonesia? If you ever had and you had your eyes open at the airport you would know.

Well, not until way after the cases.


It does seem silly to say "well it was on the signs at the airport/ on the plane" though. Once you're strapped up with drugs its probably a bit too late.

 

[Kangi]

I just need to echo this. Eighteen pounds. Just... wow.

Yeah, I don't feel much sympathy. Sure, I'd rather see them live than die, but when you find yourself smuggling eighteen pounds of drugs through one of the harshest drug traffic lawed countries on the planet... you might, just might, be an idiot.

 

[Fusebox]

I bet there was some massive profits to be made if they got through though.

 

[SMT]

What their families have to go through is more sad.
I wouldn't kill them, just house arrest them for so long, this way they would have no choice but to go nowhere. Be a prisoner in your own home vs death.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Hitler isn't the mother bee telepathically linked to all the soldier bee's, killing him wouldn't end Nazism. If anything he'd be seen as a martyr by neo-nazi's, either way his memory would fuel their obsession.



No that isn't unrealistic. Assuming he is captured he is no longer a threat to the world and will remain in prison until death. I don't think torture or human sacrifice for revenge purposes is ethical.

As for publishing ideas, the general public should have a right to know why he killed their friends/family no? Or is everyone just going to plug their ears, have someone else inject the needle, and then pretend everything goes away just like that?

I think you are being unrealistic. 20% of a population of a country is a lot and 7 million people is no joke. I would not call anyone who calls for his death uncivilized. It is completely logical and fair, in my opinion, to hand down the death penalty in such a situation. It is not barbaric.

And no I would personally not want to hear it. Maybe a simple why or some basic motivations, but a full fledged interview would be out of the question for me. No one wants to hear the rhetoric of a madman for an extended period of time, and it will deteriorate the situation.

 

[Raad]

Well, not until way after the cases.


It does seem silly to say "well it was on the signs at the airport/ on the plane" though. Once you're strapped up with drugs its probably a bit too late.

Most cases are smuggling drugs out on Indonesia. Upon arrival you are bombarded with signs.

 

[zoukka]

I think you are being unrealistic. 20% of a population of a country is a lot and 7 million people is no joke. I would not call anyone who calls for his death uncivilized. It is completely logical and fair, in my opinion, to hand down the death penalty in such a situation. It is not barbaric.

And no I would personally not want to hear it. Maybe a simple why or some basic motivations, but a full fledged interview would be out of the question for me. No one wants to hear the rhetoric of a madman for an extended period of time, and it will deteriorate the situation.

You sound a bit like emotion has a place in legislation and investigation. You give very little confidence in people if you fear a captured criminals agenda is dangerous to the public. Understanding why "evil" exists and how it operates is very important to anyone. Mystifying things by a quick death with minimal information given about the situation could be harmful in my opinion.

 

[Qvoth]

Nggak mungkiiin, soalnya secara ini kasus sudah tersebar luas beritanya jadi kalau nyuap pasti ketahuan

...

...Um, yea, impossible.

bro all the corrupt cases are wide spread as fuck and they all still bribed their way out
pake inggris wae lah, kan english forum

 

[Raad]

Read your posts, you're being a jerk dude. I think it's fair to presume that most Australians who hadn't been to Indonesia and/or don't take drugs probably didn't know about their draconian drug laws until the Corby case.

I'm not being a jerk, I'm being honest. Indonesia, in fact most of Asia have tough drug laws, it's common knowledge. I'm sorry I assumed you had some general knowledge. Next time I will dumb all my posts down. Again, sorry!

 

[Angry Fork]

I think you are being unrealistic. 20% of a population of a country is a lot and 7 million people is no joke. I would not call anyone who calls for his death uncivilized. It is completely logical and fair, in my opinion, to hand down the death penalty in such a situation. It is not barbaric.

And no I would personally not want to hear it. Maybe a simple why or some basic motivations, but a full fledged interview would be out of the question for me. No one wants to hear the rhetoric of a madman for an extended period of time, and it will deteriorate the situation.

I'm fine with people saying someone deserves to die, or wishing such a person would die. I don't care about that, I'm saying hiring a state agent to do it is legalized murder and unethical, as the person is already captured. It is done to make people feel better and I believe that comes from sadist, primal impulses, like torture.

Society should strive to overcome this flaw, and I think it is a flaw, to want revenge rather than something more beneficial and longer lasting, whatever that may be. In my case I think it's learning why that individual is the way he is.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Breivik was devastated when he was announced mentally ill. That did send a message to people everywhere.



Well I hope my view is clear now to you

Yeah but they still got to hear his silly Knights of Templars idea. Not that I disagree with the way Norway handled the situation (I like their justice system), but that is a good example where killing him or muzzling him would have been better if you did not want to spread his ideas.

 

[zoukka]

Yeah but they still got to hear his silly Knights of Templars idea. Not that I disagree with the way Norway handled the situation (I like their justice system), but that is a good example where killing him or muzzling him would have been better if you did not want to spread his ideas.

No. His mandate was already spreading through internet. The hearings only confirmed his madness each time the man spoke. Norway handled the thing well.

 

[Fusebox]

I'm not being a jerk, I'm being honest. Indonesia, in fact most of Asia have tough drug laws, it's common knowledge. I'm sorry I assumed you had some general knowledge. Next time I will dumb all my posts down. Again, sorry!

Like I said...

 

[rCIZZLE]

Could hardly care less. A lot of lives could have been ruined by those drugs.

If you can't do the time then don't do the crime. So I suspect in their case, time's up.

As far as I know they weren't forcing or tricking anybody into taking those drugs. Not like killing these guys will stop people from buying drugs but it will force everybody into paying the fees for the legal process.

 

[Raad]

Like I said...

General knowledge failure confirmed. Like I said...

 

[bodyboarder]

Very little sympathy. They obviously thought the risk/reward factor was there in the first place to attempt it.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I'm fine with people saying someone deserves to die, or wishing such a person would die. I don't care about that, I'm saying hiring a state agent to do it is legalized murder and unethical, as the person is already captured. It is done to make people feel better and I believe that comes from sadist, primal impulses, like torture.

Society should strive to overcome this flaw, and I think it is a flaw, to want revenge rather than something more beneficial and longer lasting, whatever that may be. In my case I think it's learning why that individual is the way he is.

Fair enough. I respect your position. I still disagree with the idea that the death penalty is uncivilized in all cases, but I can see where you are coming from.

As far as I know they weren't forcing or tricking anybody into taking those drugs. Not like killing these guys will stop people from buying drugs but it will force everybody into paying the fees for the legal process.

The drug is highly addictive so as far as I'm concerned, people who are buying it do not have a choice.

No. His mandate was already spreading through internet. The hearings only confirmed his madness each time the man spoke. Norway handled the thing well.

Yet there are still many people who idolize him and his written and documented ideas give them fuel for their hatred.

 

[choodi]

Read your posts, you're being a jerk dude. I think it's fair to presume that most Australians who hadn't been to Indonesia and/or don't take drugs probably didn't know about their draconian drug laws until the Corby case.

Anyone who wasn't aware of these laws pre-Corby was either a kid or had their head buried in the sand.

Do a Google search and you'll see that this kind of thing has been pretty common for the last 40 years. Always gets plenty of exposure on mainstream media. There have even been tv miniseries made about famous cases.

Fuck head Aussies taking the same risk and then assuming the government would get them out of trouble is nothing new.

 

[GillianSeed79]

18 pounds? Good fuck.

This. I don't aprove of the death penalty for drug crimes, but fuck if I don't have sympathy for him. Fuck you. 18 pounds? You are already sentencing a bunch of kids to death with that amount. Seriously, thank you for supplying the smack heads on my block. It was great when I got burglarized twice. Fucking dick. I don't want him to die, but I'd love if he'd rot in a prison for a few years. At least let him reflect on how many kids he's helped kill.

 

[rCIZZLE]

The drug is highly addictive so as far as I'm concerned, people who are buying it do not have a choice.

Those people know it's highly addictive before they try it and like I said, killing a couple smugglers won't take away the ability for people to find these drugs.

 

[Fusebox]

Do a Google search and you'll see that this kind of thing has been pretty common for the last 40 years.

Who was the first Australian to be executed in Indonesia for drug trafficking and when?

Regardless, there was no need for raad to start acting like a cunt just because he had a modicum more information than shanshan did.

 

[shanshan310]

General knowledge failure confirmed. Like I said...

I was only 13 when the Bali nine were arrested. I didn't really pay much attention to new before that, and from the way people were talking Corby had a lot more coverage than any cases before and opened people's eyes. I guess not.

 

[Realyn]

I don't get these types of posts at all.

How can you not have sympathy for people pleading not to be put to death for a drug offense?

Hahaha .. hahha .. haaa ... drug offense. Right. You make it sound like they smoked one joint and got caught by a police officer.

 

[zoukka]

Yet there are still many people who idolize him and his written and documented ideas give them fuel for their hatred.

They idolize his actions. By silencing/killing him those actions don't disappear and neither do his sympathizers. It's impossible to know whether the amount of people looking up to him would increase/decrease with his death right now, but I'm sure that in general it's beneficial for society to understand and know how these crazy people operate. Mystifying and implifying things gets us nowhere.