choodi
Banned
On my phone right now, but I am sure it's not too hard to find some info on Australians sentenced to death for drug trafficking in South East Asia.
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Australians on Indonesia death row plead for lives
- Thread starter Dram
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On my phone right now, but I am sure it's not too hard to find some info on Australians sentenced to death for drug trafficking in South East Asia.
FlutterPuffs
Member
When it's heroin? Yeah. I really don't. Highly addictive, and has destroyed a life of a family member.
Sutton Dagger
Member
To the people claiming that Indonesia should be able to enact any punishment they see fit, does it have any limits? I mean, could the punishment be rape every day for 5 years and then the criminal gets every limb cut off with a blunt knife? I'm surprised how many moral relativists we have in this thread.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Wow.
Way to inflate points to a ridiculous degree to support your argument
bro all the corrupt cases are wide spread as fuck and they all still bribed their way out
pake inggris wae lah, kan english forum
Ahahahahahaha.
choodi
Banned
And who are you to decide for the Indonesian people what punishments are suitable for particular crimes?
FlutterPuffs
Member
Wow.
Way to inflate points to a ridiculous degree to support your argument
Ahahahahahaha.
I didn't know Laughing Banana is Indonesian. Holy shit man.
Seriously though, I agree that some culture should abolish the death penalty, but this is Indonesia we are talking about. It has some ways to go before they can think of abolishing it.
Sutton Dagger
Member
Wow.
Way to inflate points to a ridiculous degree to support your argument
Ahahahahahaha.
Well yeah, that was the point, it was to highlight the ridiculousness of the proposition that a certain country can do whatever it likes with its criminals. I think as a global community we should try to establish basic principals regarding punishments based on all the evidence available to us. Is that a controversial opinion? I think some things should not be tolerated in civilised society, the death penalty is definitely one of them.
How do you feel about stoning someone to death in Sudan for being gay?
Fuck cultural relativity.
choodi
Banned
So, whose moral and ethical standards are we going to base this concept of a civilised society on?
Why should your ideas about what a civilised society is be any more important than the opinions of the people of Indonesia. Sounds very similar to colonialism to me.
choodi
Banned
As stated earlier in the thread, I don't support the death penalty.
However, I do think anyone advocating forcefully changing another sovereign nation's laws should really think about the ethical consequences of what they are proposing.
You don't support the death penalty, but you support the right of other nations to implement the death penalty. Have I got that right?
choodi
Banned
Yep. Do you have a problem with that?
It's only about cultural relativity when it's about people doing things in your country. Telling people what to do in their own country is cultural imperialism.
choodi
Banned
What moral, ethical or legal stance do you have which allows you to tell another country that their morals and ethics are wrong?
What you're suggesting is that we say to Indonesia that we're right, they're wrong and if they don't like it they are uncivilised.
Sutton Dagger
Member
Who said forcefully changing? I said coming to an established set of norms in regards to punishments that take into account evidence regarding harsh punishments on society and acknowledge the idea of human well being.
LaserBuddha
Member
You're completely off base and don't seem to understand the concepts of universal principals or natural law. Total moral relativism is nonsense.
If it felt like I was singling you out, I apologize. That was not the intention. Asia has always been known for it's harsh punishment for drug smugglers/traffickers. As you were 13 when the 9 were caught I can see how you would feel that this case was the one to make everyone in Australia notice the severity of the Indonesian drug laws, but that is not true. It has been happening for years and will keep happening.
choodi
Banned
So why should I have the ability to force my principles on other people. Especially those who live in a democratic country?
Ok, so who is coming up with these established set of norms? Is that western norms? What about the people of the Middle East, the United States, South America and South East Asia who believe that the death penalty is quite justified and acceptable?
Universal principles of natural law? Whose universal principles would these be?
shanshan310
Member
Don't worry about it
I see, I honestly didn't realise. Now I'm even more confused as to why Aus customs didn't arrest them. Either way these guys were pretty obviously aware of what they were getting into, even the mules. Why you'd ever take such a risk I will never understand. I'm sure its decent pay but there are much safer ways to make cash.
I wasnt making a statement of fact. I was saying that you are using the concept of cultural and moral relativism, which is actually completely irrelevant to this discussion, to defend your reactionary and outdated ideas about cultures different from your own.
If you really feel that Indonesia is violating a universal law by killing these people for drug trafficking, why don't you just invade their country and set up a new government for them? Seriously, why not? Dont tell me im setting up a slippery slope or something, either. I want to hear your answer, because I think if you answer seriously, your answer is going to be the same as those of the people you've been attacking.
Honestly, it just comes off that your anti the death penalty (which is fine, so am i).
"Coming to an established set of norms"
They have already done this - the law. How they choose to punish is up to them!
Making everybody live by your rules and culture sounds forceful to me.
choodi
Banned
Don't worry about it
Either way these guys were pretty obviously aware of what they were getting into, even the mules. Why you'd ever take such a risk I will never understand. I'm sure its decent pay but there are much safer ways to make cash.
They weren't arrested because they hadn't committed a crime in Australia.
Don't worry about it
Either way these guys were pretty obviously aware of what they were getting into, even the mules. Why you'd ever take such a risk I will never understand. I'm sure its decent pay but there are much safer ways to make cash.
The mules were promised around ten to twenty thousand dollars each, and obviously some decent heroin to shoot (some were junkies). Not enough for me to put my life on the line, but being in their position, who knows what I would have done.
I think Corby was thrown under the bus by the media because she was guilty from the outset. The vacuum sealed bag made for the exact shape of the bodyboard, her family ties to drugs in the past, her families connection to small drug rings in Indonesia.
Corby explained that it was the baggage staff that put the dope in the bag. Her lawyer had the baggage handling videos from the airports but never released it to the media - I wonder why? He also never showed it in court. You would think if her bag was touched it would have been seen in the video.
She got so much coverage because she was a young girl, and that was it. She will sell a book when she gets out of jail and make a decent amount of money. This is how it all usually goes.
choodi
Banned
Once the media realised that her whole family had been involved in selling drugs for more than a generation, they retreated from their early position and took a more reserved tact to the situation.
Edit: some light reading for people wanting to know why death penalties for Australian drug smugglers in South East Asia should not be news for any Australians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlow_and_Chambers_execution
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
"In response to the argument that no one has the right to take another's life, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad replied, "You should tell that to the drug traffickers."
Hmmm. That's a food for thought.
LaserBuddha
Member
Universal principles OR natural law. They don't have ownership, that's what makes them universal. Really dude, you're way out of your philosophical depth here. You're outright admitting to not understanding concepts, and you know little enough to not even realize you're doing it.
Man, if I was interested in this discussion you'd think I'd be read up on it a little bit. I find it an interesting discussion (and not just as a thought exercise), but I'm unsighted on a lot of research.
Sutton, could you point me in the direction of any studies/evidence on the effects of capital punishment on societies? I did try to Google but was hit but a list of hits and I didn't know where to start.
choodi
Banned
What makes something universal is acceptance by everyone. Clearly, when it comes to the death penalty, there is no universal principle.
Go back to your first year ethics text book and come up with something else.
LaserBuddha
Member
First year of what? Please stop embarrassing yourself. Please open a GODDAMN BOOK and learn what "universal" is in the context of this discussion. Whether you comprehend it or not, even you ascribe to certain universal moral principals that allow you to judge the rightness of others' actions. Everyone does. How many people accept it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it.
choodi
Banned
Natural law is dependent on the society's interpretation of what constitutes moral and acceptable behaviour. Why is your interpretation better or more "right" than someone's from Indonesia?
You really need to stop telling us how smart you are and contribute something more to the conversation.
Start by answering this question: What makes your (or my) interpretation of what is moral and right more important than those of the lawmakers in Indonesia?
You have every right to disagree with anything, but you have no right to make people conform to your set of so called "natural laws". Which is what the end-game of your idea is. Implementation of your punishment laws on another country/region/family.
Sutton Dagger
Member
I find it absolutely incredible that you don't think we can come to some accepted norms regarding morality. Grounding a child is the moral equivalent of stoning the child to death? This position is clearly untenable when we start to look at your moral system and how it relates to people. Do you think that little of people that you believe we can't establish some basic concepts of right and wrong based on our understanding of human cognition?
I find it absolutely incredible that you cannot answer his question.
Use the case at hand: You disagree with the death penalty for these 2 ring leaders of a drug smuggling operation. The Indonesians feel that these 2 deserve this punishment. What makes your norms better then the Indonesians?
choodi
Banned
In Australia, we can't even come to some sort of accepted norm on whether it is moral or not to smack a child.
How are we supposed to come to some sort of accepted norm on whether it is moral to execute someone?
Now extrapolate that concept across multiple cultures, countries and legal systems?
How about marriage equality? What is the natural law position on that?
Understanding the concepts is one thing, thinking it's anything but a load of shite is another.
You'd think that everyone who claims that morality is objective and universal would share the same moral code, especially those who don't attribute the rightousness of their own moral code to the "will of god".
Because anything else would just reduce the whole concept to a dude standing on a soapbox claming that his own personal preference is the only correct moral code, right?
But what does it mean with your own universal morality? Who is right:
"We think that killing another human is wrong, so the death penalty should be abolished".
"We think that killing another human is wrong, so if you commit murder you have lost the right to your own life, and we will execute you (even if you later prove to be mentally handicapped)"
"Heroin kills people and killing people is wrong. So we will execute those who deal heroine".
So who will get the medal here when "the universe" hands out our just rewards for moral righteousness?
choodi
Banned
And we're done...
I dont get this bullshit. Why do people complain and make big news stories when going to places like Thailand and Indonesia?
You go to the place knowing the consequence is death for your actions, they do it like a bunch of amateurs, and then they make all these huge news headlines and we are meant to be all sympathetic because they acted like idiots?
I love drugs. I'd go to these places happily and take drugs whilst there, but try and smuggle them out?
Idiots.
As for people complaining about the death sentence etc etc....they are sovereign states allowed to have whatever laws they please as long as its not in violation of larger laws such as Geneva Conventions etc.
This isnt about the death penalty, its about idiots looking to get caught and looking to die. Do some fucking research before you started smuggling drugs in this day and age assholes.
You go to the place knowing the consequence is death for your actions, they do it like a bunch of amateurs, and then they make all these huge news headlines and we are meant to be all sympathetic because they acted like idiots?
I love drugs. I'd go to these places happily and take drugs whilst there, but try and smuggle them out?
Idiots.
As for people complaining about the death sentence etc etc....they are sovereign states allowed to have whatever laws they please as long as its not in violation of larger laws such as Geneva Conventions etc.
This isnt about the death penalty, its about idiots looking to get caught and looking to die. Do some fucking research before you started smuggling drugs in this day and age assholes.
Sutton Dagger
Member
Do you accept the idea that we're able to generally establish what human well being entails? Given what we know about human cognition/development/pyscology etc can we strive to provide a society that takes into account these things? The whole idea of moral relativism is asinine when we take into account the thing that we are actually critiquing, human well being. You are mistaken if you think the other proposition is rigid moral objectivity, cause that isn't what I'm advocating, I'm talking about something more nuanced, but based on evidence. In this respect there may be multiple moral equivalents, a black and white interpretation gets us no where.
ambientmystic
Member
Add Malaysia to the list. They're as strict if not stricter than those two nations when it comes to drug peddling/smuggling. They hang folks for the offense.
choodi
Banned
Yes. That is what the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is all about.
We have a moral responsibility to ensure that those basic human rights outlined in the declaration are upheld anywhere in the world. However, it is also equally important that we allow people and societies the freedom to decide on their own moral standards and to allow them to implement them as they see fit (within the bounds of the declaration).
Enacting the death penalty is a moral choice for the people of any society to make. As an Australian, I am of the moral standpoint that the death penalty is not moral and should not be used. However, by what right does anyone criticise Indonesia for exercising its right to enact the death penalty?
Is it not a basic human right for a society to create laws that reflect the best interests and beliefs of the society?
That is my viewpoint on this matter. I don't agree with them doing it, but I don't see what right I have to dictate to them how they should deal with people who break their laws.
Edit: I'll have to leave the debate here as I have to get some sleep for work tomorrow and Game of Thrones is not going to watch itself.
Sutton Dagger
Member
So you accept that there has been some moral progress regarding the establishment of the Universal Deceleration of Human Rights. That means you understand the concept of moral progress and that we can improve our morality as a global community. There are some things that aren't beneficial to society right, some things so heinous that we instinctively recognise that we don't want to live in a society like that (random murder/rape/theft etc). Then there are things that are more nuanced but also detrimental to human wellbeing, I believe, and many societies have recognised that the death penalty is morally reprehensible. We understand that mistakes can and do happen, people are unjustly killed for crimes they didn't commit, I don't want to live in a society that unjustly kills its citizens so it's beneficial to everyone that we don't let these things happen. Where is this moral absolute coming from that says I have to tolerate a cultural practice that harms human wellbeing?
It's common knowledge in Australia that Indonesia has the death penalty for drugs. And yet people still bring them over and use them while on holidays. I'm not saying they deserve the death penalty but their pretty fucking stupid.
TriangleOfCorruption
Member
i would still feel sorry for that person as they were being eaten by lions
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