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[Septic360]

You can also ask about non-muslim women and men. Weirdly the burqa hasn't taken off in the western fashion world.


What ? I don't see what shaving anyone's head has to do with anything and you don't get expelled from public school just like that, it's an extremely uncommon process.

Sorry here is the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3708444.stm

She shaved her head under the threat of expulsion for not removing the headscarf. My bad- I thought she was expelled because of the shaving of her head to subvert the ban on the headscarf.

 

[His Majesty]

Like I said in my previous post in the French thread. I find it hilarious how Europeans view multiculturalism.

What do you find hilarious about it?

 

[DirgeExtinction]

Let's ban coats too.

And baseball caps/sunglasses combo.

Seriously, though. I'm a bit torn on this. On one hand, give women more freedom. On the other, it's infringing on religious freedom. Slippery slope there.

 

[dragonfart28]

This is only a tool of oppression if it is treated like one.

In Western states, it can actually evolve to be one of freedom, where women independently decide to wear it.

I agree with Netherlands policy to remove it only for security reasons.

 

[Alienfan]

My first thought was 'good it's a symbol of oppression'. But really, very few wear it and it's not like this law will stop those that do, it's just now they won't be allowed out of the house by their despicable husbands (they will have far less freedom than before).

 

[Kthulhu]

What do you find hilarious about it?

How here in backwards America and Canada we figured out how to create melting pots yet the supposedly socially liberal EU can't figure that out.

Just let people wear whatever they want. I can understand banning the burqa in certain locations where ones face needs to be visible, but not everywhere.

 

[azyless]

Sorry here is the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3708444.stm

She shaved her head under the threat of expulsion for not removing the headscarf. My bad- I thought she was expelled because of the shaving of her head to subvert the ban on the headscarf.

"Expulsion" here is just being removed from class. Not being actually expulsed from the school.

 

[CheDominik]

And baseball caps/sunglasses combo.

Seriously, though. I'm a bit torn on this. On one hand, give women more freedom. On the other, it's infringing on religious freedom. Slippery slope there.

Infringing on religious freedom is something that has been confirmed as constitutional by Germany's constitutional court(who share the same legal traditions) over and over again when it infringes on other rights.

 

[Pusherman]

I'm not saying we should restrict their decisions, as I mentioned earlier in the thread I don't think legally pursuing women who wear the veil is the right way to do things. But encouraging women to submit themselves to patriarchal customs isn't helping either. The veil needs to disappear through education, and not the law, but it needs to disappear nonetheless.

It's not up to us to decide what does and doesn't need to disappear. I am certainly not encouraging anyone to wear anything but I do support people's right to decide for themselves what to wear. Education does not make everyone into you and me. Sad, I know, but it doesn't. Not everyone will turn out a smart enlightened atheist. So we need to be able to live with people with more conservative and traditional, even extreme, beliefs. As long as those beliefs don't hurt others I don't think we should have a say in them. And a face-veil does not hurt others and from every single interview I've seen with a woman wearing one it seems totally possible for women to wear one completely voluntarily.

There was a dutch educational reality TV-show about non-muslim women who's daughters converted to islam. Together they all traveled to Jordan. One of the converted daughters wore a face-veil. She was the most assertive, fierce and sassy girl of the group. Her family opposed her wearing the face-veil and she was unmarried so it wasn't like a husband or boyfriend was forcing her either. So why the Hell should any of us force her to take it off? You can't convince me that genuine concern for the women involved moves bans like the one in Austria. And so I don't support them.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

pure populism but that's about the only thing to take issue with here.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

My first thought was 'good it's a symbol of oppression'. But really, very few wear it and it's not like this law will stop those that do, it's just now they won't be allowed out of the house by their despicable husbands (they will have far less freedom than before).

Their home becomes their new burqa. I am not sure if this fixes much.

 

[Dunkley]

As an Austrian I admit I am split about this. I don't condone the oppression of women under any circumstance but downright banning the burqa seems not the way to go either, mostly in the sense that there could be women who want to wear that kinda stuff, big emphasis on could since honestly I think the majority is in fact oppressed into it.

But maybe I am just wrong and everyone is oppressed into wearing it, I can understand the ban then because I don't want people to be oppressed into wearing them, it's just, at the same time I don't want people to be forbidden to wearing them out of their own volition if they just want to express their religious belief.

If they aren't hurting anyone by wearing a burqa and aren't forced into wearing one by a man, I don't really see the issue of them having the option to wear one.

 

[Septic360]

"Expulsion" here is just being removed from class. Not being actually expulsed from the school.

But it doesn't though according to what the article suggests:

With her newly-shaven look, she was allowed into school on Friday.

Plus:

Reports say about 120 schoolgirls across France insisted on keeping their headscarves at the start of term, but most have since given in under threat of expulsion.

 

[UrbanRats]

There is no "free will" when you've been forced to wear it since birth.

Sure, but that's a real deep rabbit hole of an argument.

 

[norinrad]

I'm not against this, though i also have no idea of the long term implications.

 

[dogstar]

I'm fine with this. No free woman will ever wear this.

What if a free woman chooses too?

I have very mixed feeling about this... obviously this sort of 'dress' can be used in an abusive form, or to conceal identity for malicious purposes, but some women wear this with their own free will and find it liberating. In that case who has the right to deny it?

 

[TBiddy]

And baseball caps/sunglasses combo.

Seriously, though. I'm a bit torn on this. On one hand, give women more freedom. On the other, it's infringing on religious freedom. Slippery slope there.

It's odd how that on the one hand "religious freedom" is what protects circumcision and how on the other hand no amount of "religious freedom" can save the burqa, niqab and what have you from being banned.

Generally speaking I think people should be allowed to wear whatever they please, but they also need to be able to identify themselves if required (when showing ID etc.), and that is indeed difficult when wearing a burqa or a niqab.

 

[Dali]

A lot of places have mask bans like this but limited to events, assemblies and demonstrations. I think this is reasonable. I think individual shop owners and privately owned spaces like malls should be free to deny entrance to people hiding their identity but it should be their own decision. A blanket ban on just someone walking down the street with a mask a doesn't seem nevessary... yet, but I'm open to the idea.

 

[azyless]

But it doesn't though according to what the article suggests:

Plus:

It's literally the first sentence of the article :

Cennet Doganay was banned from classes for wearing a headscarf

and there :

Cennet, whose family is of Turkish origin, had only been allowed into the study room at her school in Strasbourg since early September,

If after a while they still refuse to remove it I don't know what else can be done.

 

[Soph]

Banning is the wrong reaction, stating women wear the burqa out of free will is shortsighted.

 

[Alienfan]

Their home becomes their new burqa. I am not sure if this fixes much.

Out of sight out of mind unfortunately

 

[Funky Papa]

How here in backwards America and Canada we figured out how to create melting pots yet the supposedly socially liberal EU can't figure that out.

Just let people wear whatever they want. I can understand banning the burqa in certain locations where ones face needs to be visible, but not everywhere.

You may want to get off your high horse and look at the news before you fall head first.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Good, really isn't something that belongs in a modern society where genders are considered equal

True but....

What nonsense. All that will do is make them feel unwanted and disrespected, making integration more difficult, not less so. And if someone is being forced to wear it against their will, now that they're not allowed to wear it, they'll just be forced to stay home and now allowed to go out at all, further isolating them and thus making things worse for them if anything. There's no benefit to this other than people being terrified and losing their minds over a piece of cloth (which, while it can and indeed is used to oppress, is only a symptom of that oppression and thus removing it changes nothing and doesn't actually benefit those women's lives in any way--all it changes is that people don't have to see it in public anymore, but the oppression itself remains unabated) not having to look at it anymore I guess. But for the women themselves, there is no gain. Absolutely none.

 

[travisbickle]

Yeah and if you watch the liberation of ISIS strongholds, you will see women gladly throw it away.

An "ISIS stronghold" is the operative word of that sentence. Shouldn't ban religious clothing in a free society and instead allow it to phase out with time, it's hardly a fashionable piece of clothing for young people.

 

[onken]

It's fine to view the burkah or niqab or whatever have you as a symbol of oppression. Many Muslim women will have their own views against it just the same.

That doesn't make banning a reasonable response. It does nothing but harm the lives of already oppressed women. If they can't go out in their veil then what, you think they'll families that force it on them will just say "well okay off it goes"? No, it just keeps the women indoors and culturally insulated among themselves.

If you wanna fight the burqa, these women need to be promoted into society, not removed from

There is nothing more culturally isolating than wearing a burkah, you might as well not go outside in the first place.

 

[psychowave]

Sure, but that's a real deep rabbit hole of an argument.

I don't mind that. We all need to explore the things we've been conditioned to do since childhood, not just when it comes to religion.

 

[norinrad]

How here in backwards America and Canada we figured out how to create melting pots yet the supposedly socially liberal EU can't figure that out.

Just let people wear whatever they want. I can understand banning the burqa in certain locations where ones face needs to be visible, but not everywhere.

hahahahahaha JFC

 

[jessop]

And baseball caps/sunglasses combo.

Seriously, though. I'm a bit torn on this. On one hand, give women more freedom. On the other, it's infringing on religious freedom. Slippery slope there.

this will not give women more freedom. if you've ever listened to a woman who wears one, most of them find wearing it gives them MORE freedom. it might be hard to accept because it's shocking to you but you need to actually listen to people instead of imposing your ideals on them.

women in western society are hypersexualised, whether you think this is a problem or not is up to you. but think for a min it could be quite freeing to remove yourself from the male gaze and not be viewed as a sex object. dont kid yourself into thinking that western capitalist society isnt misogynist as fuck

just in general when its a bunch of men telling a group of women what to wear that is always gonna be sus and prob not a great shout. men have a history of absolutely hating a woman's right to chose anything for themselves. the fact that it is masked as concern is extremely transparent and pathetic.

 

[azyless]

An "ISIS stronghold" is the operative word of that sentence. Shouldn't ban religious clothing in a free society and instead allow it to phase out with time, it's hardly a fashionable piece of clothing for young people.

I don't know about Austria but you should probably read up on the rise of salafism in western countries such as France. It's not "phasing out" at all, the burqa was virtually non existant here 15 years ago.

 

[Kayhan]

The Burka is religiously institutionalized misogyny. Anyone defending its use in any shape or form is a bigot.

 

[Messofanego]

It's interesting, right? People who think the burqa is oppression. They think the women are maltreated by men and restrict them in certain ways. That's your view, fine. Me being a muslim, I only recognise the hijab as traditional. But that's just my opinion, I'm not banning other forms of covering.

Yet you see often liberal men are supporting restrictions on women with a ban. They can't fathom the women having any agency possible if they somehow want to wear a piece of clothing of their own volition. It 100% has to be a tool of oppression.

Along these lines, how is makeup sometimes not a tool of oppression? Revealing clothing? Heels? Businesses that used to and some still advise for women to wear certain clothes. They demand women to wear makeup. Some women engage in makeup and certain clothing because that's how the media and institutions have normalised a certain kind of appearance so they feel bad about not wearing makeup or certain clothes. They can't leave home without it. Yet no one is banning makeup or skirts or heels.

 

[Kthulhu]

You may want to get off your high horse and look at the news before you fall head first.

I don't see any massive protests in regards to this. Not to mention that Trump lost the popular vote here, the EC is the only reason he won. The people didn't want him.

He also hit majority unapproval in record time.

As opposed to stuff like Brexit where the majority of the voters actually did want it to happen.

 

[psychowave]

Along these lines, how is makeup sometimes not a tool of oppression? Revealing clothing? Heels? Businesses that used to and some still advise for women to wear certain clothes. They demand women to wear makeup. Some women engage in makeup and certain clothing because that's how the media and institutions have normalised a certain kind of appearance so they feel bad about not wearing makeup or certain clothes. They can't leave home without it. Yet no one is banning makeup or skirts or heels.

Makeup, revealing clothes and high heels are absolutely tools of oppression as well. Unfortunately when it comes to patriarchy it's not a zero sum game.

 

[Audioboxer]

The Burka is religiously institutionalized misogyny. Anyone defending its use in any shape or form is a bigot.

I don't think I'd go that far, some are trying to be well meaning straddling the "but what if a woman chooses" line. I think it's best to question them, not just call them bigots. As I did above, I always ask for examples of men choosing to wear something resembling the burqa. As do I put it to them that women under the oppression of ISIS who get violently forced to wear it often feel liberated when they can return to a head scarf. Are we going to tell our "sisters" in the middle east to simmer down and stop burning their burqas and calling it out because choice?

Human beings are social beings and that transcends ANY religion. The face is almost integral to integrating and functioning in society.

 

[Ratrat]

What if a free woman chooses too?

I have very mixed feeling about this... obviously this sort of 'dress' can be used in an abusive form, or to conceal identity for malicious purposes, but some women wear this with their own free will and find it liberating. In that case who has the right to deny it?

Liberating? It prevents you from functioning in society on any normal level.

 

[T.O.P]

They can't leave home without it.

Yep, absolutely the same thing

SMH

 

[azyless]

Along these lines, how is makeup sometimes not a tool of oppression? Revealing clothing? Heels? Businesses that used to and some still advise for women to wear certain clothes. They demand women to wear makeup. Some women engage in makeup and certain clothing because that's how the media and institutions have normalised a certain kind of appearance so they feel bad about not wearing makeup or certain clothes. They can't leave home without it. Yet no one is banning makeup or skirts or heels.

They are.
They're not signs of religious extremism though, and they don't isolate you from the rest of society.

 

[ClosingADoor]

How here in backwards America and Canada we figured out how to create melting pots yet the supposedly socially liberal EU can't figure that out.

Just let people wear whatever they want. I can understand banning the burqa in certain locations where ones face needs to be visible, but not everywhere.

Must have missed the past year or so I take it? Don't pretend like the US and Canada have fixed things like racism and live in a perfect multicultural society.

I don't see any massive protests in regards to this. Not to mention that Trump lost the popular vote here, the EC is the only reason he won. The people didn't want him.

He also hit majority unapproval in record time.

As opposed to stuff like Brexit where the majority of the population actually did want it to happen.

Maybe that is because this issue is a totally different one then what is happening in the US at the moment? And just because there are a few protests, doesn't mean the US has it "figured out".

Along these lines, how is makeup sometimes not a tool of oppression? Revealing clothing? Heels? Businesses that used to and some still advise for women to wear certain clothes. They demand women to wear makeup. Some women engage in makeup and certain clothing because that's how the media and institutions have normalised a certain kind of appearance so they feel bad about not wearing makeup or certain clothes. They can't leave home without it. Yet no one is banning makeup or skirts or heels.

The UK actually has some pretty interesting things going on about this at the moment, where workplace sexism is discussed because women are forced to do the things you mention. It would be good if more countries looked at that and work towards equality in the workplace.

 

[Kayhan]

The very fact that only women - never men - are required to wear these in some cultures is solid proof that it is all about control and misogyny.

 

[TBiddy]

Along these lines, how is makeup sometimes not a tool of oppression? Revealing clothing? Heels? Businesses that used to and some still advise for women to wear certain clothes. They demand women to wear makeup. Some women engage in makeup and certain clothing because that's how the media and institutions have normalised a certain kind of appearance so they feel bad about not wearing makeup or certain clothes. They can't leave home without it. Yet no one is banning makeup or skirts or heels.

Did you just compare makeup and high heels to a burqa or a niqab?

 

[patapuf]

An "ISIS stronghold" is the operative word of that sentence. Shouldn't ban religious clothing in a free society and instead allow it to phase out with time, it's hardly a fashionable piece of clothing for young people.

While i'm opposed to banning the burqa because i don't think it'll lead to any positive change, i think the belief that these things will disapear on their own is wrong too.

If these past few months have shown anything it's that progressive values don't improve on their own over time. You have to actively create an environment where they are possible. That's not an easy thing to do, especially in pockets that actively avoid society.

 

[Gutek]

Not the biggest fan of the ban, but the burka has no place in modern society.

 

[Kthulhu]

Must have missed the past year or so I take it? Don't pretend like the US and Canada have fixed things like racism and live in a perfect multicultural society.


Maybe that is because this issue is a totally different one then what is happening in the US at the moment? And just because there are a few protests, doesn't mean the US has it "figured out".


The UK actually has some pretty interesting things going on about this at the moment, where workplace sexism is discussed because women are forced to do the things you mention. It would be good if more countries did and work towards equality in the workplace.

The general philosophy has been figured out. Cultures need to be mixed and people need to be allowed to do what they want if they aren't hurting anyone.

This is pure utter islamaphobia, and the EU needs to establish rules on this.

 

[His Majesty]

An "ISIS stronghold" is the operative word of that sentence. Shouldn't ban religious clothing in a free society and instead allow it to phase out with time, it's hardly a fashionable piece of clothing for young people.

Radicalization is not a process that phases out with time.

 

[Ros8105]

It's interesting, right? People who think the burqa is oppression. They think the women are maltreated by men and restrict them in certain ways. That's your view, fine. Me being a muslim, I only recognise the hijab as traditional. But that's just my opinion, I'm not banning other forms of covering.

Yet you see often liberal men are supporting restrictions on women with a ban. They can't fathom the women having any agency possible if they somehow want to wear a piece of clothing of their own volition. It 100% has to be a tool of oppression.

Along these lines, how is makeup sometimes not a tool of oppression? Revealing clothing? Heels? Businesses that used to and some still advise for women to wear certain clothes. They demand women to wear makeup. Some women engage in makeup and certain clothing because that's how the media and institutions have normalised a certain kind of appearance so they feel bad about not wearing makeup or certain clothes. They can't leave home without it. Yet no one is banning makeup or skirts or heels.

This is such a stupid comparison and you know it.

 

[Funky Papa]

I don't see any massive protests in regards to this. Not to mention that Trump lost the popular vote here, the EC is the only reason he won. The people didn't want him.

He also hit majority unapproval in record time.

As opposed to stuff like Brexit where the majority of the population actually did want it to happen.

a) Hardly the same in terms of geographic, legal, political and humanitarian scope.

b) "But we didn't vote for him" is a crap excuse when trying to portray America as a melting pot of rainbows and glitter when nearly half of the voting public went for a president running on a platform based on hate and otherification that greatly outclasses anything Le Pen, Wilders or the AfD have put out so far. Actual European fascists would love to use in their campaigns the kind of venom the POTUS doles out through Twitter without fearing repercussions.

c) Bringing Brexit to the conversation, which was won by the skin of one's teeth (not unlike Trump's victory), basically negates the argument you are trying to make in b), unless you are seeing this as a completely binary issue. Which would be nonsense.

So yeah. Get off your high horse.

 

[Azih]

Yet another thread of people acting like the burqa and niqab are just random clothes and not at all a manifestation of radical islam.

Radicalism doesn't come from choice of clothing. It comes from support for terrorism. These are *obviously* two completely different things.

Now. Let's see what this will do.

On the one hand it won't help integration at all. On the other it will increase the marginalization of Muslims in Austria and make them feel more threatened (even if they don't choose to wear it because it's an obvious attack on co-religionists). And it will be another bullet point in the AlQaedalikes propaganda and recruitment spiel that "The West hates and is at war with Islam".

Where's the nuance? All the pros are illusory and all the cons are concrete. It's "I don't like thing" made into a needless legal hammer that will make the world a worse place.

Maybe speak to some women who choose to wear the darn things before implementing legislation that controls what they can do with their own bodies? People like Zunera Ishaq?

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/zunera-ishaq-niqab-ban-citizenship-oath-1.3257762

 

[Gutek]

The general philosophy has been figured out. Cultures need to be mixed and people need to be allowed to do what they want if they aren't hurting anyone.

This is pure utter islamaphobia, and the EU needs to establish rules on this.

I can't believe Americans are attacking the EU on grounds of Islamophobia after our president just issued a Muslimban. Insane.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

So we can not implement any regulation, just because the right wing supports it?

The initial quote of mine that you reacted to was lamenting over the fact that this isn't designed to actually help integration. I nowhere said nor stated a belief that the burqa shouldn't be banned but that any liberal intention is completely pretend.

We should ban the Burqa if we think it is something that will aid women and help integration with our culture. We shouldn't ban it on the premise that it makes us uncomfortable or even that we just dislike Islam.

Now, you may ask 'what's the difference, it achieves the same goal! No Burqas!'

Strictly, yes. However the issue is that outright banning a symbol - in the minds of some, not in others, its an important debate but not necessarily my interest here - of female oppression does not end oppression on women. Why do some men force their wives to wear it? Because they shouldn't be looked upon by other men. Now, if you ban the Burqa are those men going to be like 'ah fuck it, wear a hijab then!'? I worry not and I worry that instead these women - and by extension, young girls - will become housebound.

If you have a moral argument, great and I tend to agree with you but when the 'right' do things like this they do it for reasons that don't solve the root issue because their issue never was the oppression of women but a distaste for Islam and symbols of it.

So I would like to think I'm not just being partisan for the sake of it.

It's one of the complex judgement calls a society can make. Not every decision you end up making in life comes exclusively with pros and ZERO negatives. Sometimes it's a game of weighing them all up, and doing our best as a society to judge what will be the most progressive choice.

I always ask people who air on the side of "women happily choose this" to go away and think about why pretty much ZERO men, 0, choose to wear anything remotely similar to the burqa. If it is truly a liberated choice, why hasn't man looked at something like the burqa and thought, this is indeed a great piece of clothing for me to wear and integrate in society.

I'd guess it's because most men know we are social animals (or beings if biology/evolution isn't your thing), and a lot of life and living comes from eye contact/facial cues/smiles/etc. A woman in something like the burqa is a woman who doesn't integrate with society as it is.

As on page one I already posted how it has ties to Isis ~ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...eing-freed-from-isis-manbij-sdf-a7173671.html Symbolic ties can sometimes be how a society judges apparel. It's happened all throughout history.

Yeah, I mean I guess my thoughts are mainly outlined in the reply above but yeah, I get what you're saying.

Issue is that sometimes symbols of oppression skew in a modern context. Islam favours modesty, Western culture favours sexuality. Almost all women's clothing and fashion in Western society is conform to the sexual ideal. High heels, short skirts, etc... were all something designed by men to make women look presentable and appealing.

However, what is this now in the modern context? Would you believe a woman is oppressed to conform to this standard? I would say that women make these decisions as a choice because they want to live up to the societal ideal, the same reason I dress and groom the way I do. In modern society this does, however, manifest as choice and I'm sure many women in Western cultures choose to dress in an Islamic fashion because of their ideals.

Now, are some women forced to wear the Burqa? Absolutely. Should that be illegal? Yes.

Like you said, it's complex. I'm definitely somewhere in the middle here so I'm not trying to say it should or shouldn't be made illegal.

 

[azyless]

The general philosophy has been figured out. Cultures need to be mixed and people need to be allowed to do what they want if they aren't hurting anyone.

This is pure utter islamaphobia, and the EU needs to establish rules on this.

All of this is pretty easy to say when the USA has what ? 1% of muslims, maybe not even that ? And with hardly the same typical socioeconomical backgrounds of those in Europe.