Awesome vids, great sounds and great gf lol
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Automotive Discussion Thread | OT3 | Playing with our sticks while petting Jaguars!
- Thread starter AlphaSnake
- Start date
I dunno, I dislike white in general especially on something like an accord. Makes cars look like a rental or a fleet car. Black is sexier on any car than white, imo.
The V6 will give you a 5.5 0-60 vs 7.5ish on the cvt. Better acceleration for passing, more fun in general. Worse mpg though.
Surprising the V6 was comparable price wise to the 4 cylinder as well. V6 should have better resale as well.
The V6 accord is like a sedan muscle car almost. 4 cylinder is an economy car.
The 4 banger is a chump car. V6 is so much better in every single way.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Well uh.
I'm sitting here at the Toyota dealer while the guy "runs the numbers". He let me drive a CPO 2014 FR-s and a new 2017 86 they have on the lot. These are fun little cars for sure. The on-ramp for the freeway was actually clear in the early evening, because it was meant to be. So I floored it and went from a standing start to merging onto the freeway at 100 mph. The sales guy was cool with it.
The 2017 has the rear camera so you can see behind you backing up. It's also $8k more than the 2014. I'm torn.
I'm gonna test drive a Miata tomorrow. I hope the next sales guy also lets me standing start it to 100 mph. Tee hee.
I'm sitting here at the Toyota dealer while the guy "runs the numbers". He let me drive a CPO 2014 FR-s and a new 2017 86 they have on the lot. These are fun little cars for sure. The on-ramp for the freeway was actually clear in the early evening, because it was meant to be. So I floored it and went from a standing start to merging onto the freeway at 100 mph. The sales guy was cool with it.
The 2017 has the rear camera so you can see behind you backing up. It's also $8k more than the 2014. I'm torn.
I'm gonna test drive a Miata tomorrow. I hope the next sales guy also lets me standing start it to 100 mph. Tee hee.
TimeEffect
Member
Damn, I wonder if its too late to get the v6 then. I didn't realize it was that different :/
I don't want to regret it....but if Im saving so much on gas... maybe I shouldn't.
do you guys drive economy family cars or are most here enthusiasts who drive fast/powerful cars?
I don't want to regret it....but if Im saving so much on gas... maybe I shouldn't.
do you guys drive economy family cars or are most here enthusiasts who drive fast/powerful cars?
Ehhhhhhhhh.... guess you put the almost qualifier in there tho lol
TimeEffect I have a 2014 Accord V6 coupe. Even with 2 doors, it's a decent size vehicle. The V6 feels appropriately paired with it. I couldn't really imagine a 4 cylinder in either the Sedan or Coupe tbh. It's also my "family" car lol. My wife, son and his large carseat, and myself all get around just fine. Just takes an extra second or so to get him out!
whatsinaname
Member
I don't think the 2017 torque dip "fix" is worth the 8k extra. Save that for a future car or a supercharger.
I had a 4 cylinder 2010 Chevy Malibu for 5 years before I bought my ATS. When I got the Malibu I already had my 1976 Oldsmobile Aircraft Carrier, so buying something economical made sense to me. Even the 4 cylinder was way faster and more nimble than I was used to, but most people here probably would have found the handling and acceleration unacceptable. So really only you can decide whether the 4 cylinder is sufficient for you.
Yes, but both come with their issues. I learned my lesson about having a black car in the South with the Malibu, so I ordered my ATS in really dark blue instead *facepalm*
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
V6 Accord all day.
4 banger saloon cars are a crime. There's nothing fun about them. And a CVT is the most soul sucking aspect of an automobile. Worse than electric steering and the like.
4 banger saloon cars are a crime. There's nothing fun about them. And a CVT is the most soul sucking aspect of an automobile. Worse than electric steering and the like.
Thanks for the input. The RS in frozen white is a stunning car, and I'm actually favoring it over the STi now when I trade in my WRX (which could be anytime between this weekend and early next year).
I need to get a test drive in ASAP. I'm sure the test drive is going to dramatically expedite my decision on trading in the WRX.
This is basically what I'm looking for. RS1 with a moonroof. Beautiful car, IMO.
Stealth grey is the way to go
Nice vids Dave, car sounds great! Especially in the tunnel. Looks like some fun roads.
rokkerkory
Member
Comrad Vladimir Trump
Yup, that's the way to do it. Drive them both as close to each other as you can. That's the best way to compare them.
In my case, the first time I drove an NC Miata I instantly bonded with it but I also drive about 3 or 4 other cars that same day. When I went home in the evening the Miata was the one I kept thinking about and a couple of months later I bought one and have loved it ever since.
I never thought I would be a Miata fan but there's just something about it that is hugely entertaining. My wife and I already have an outing planned for tomorrow and she's agreed to go in the Miata and bring a hat so we can go top down. It's supposed to be just about perfect weather so I am looking forward to it. I don't know if you have a significant other but convertibles are good for sharing, imo.
Damn, that looks like a blast. I've got some friends down in Asheville, maybe it's time I caught up with them. and their roads.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
You've been here this long and have no idea? Seriously?
Continously Variable Transmission.
It's a transmission without any fixed gear ratios, and effectively no "gears". It's one giant 'gear' that expands and contracts as you apply the throttle. At full throttle, the car never shifts, it just sits at redline, droning your fucking ears to death. Lately, manufacturers like Nissan have added 'fake gears' to simulate shifts and such, but it's basically the transmission just running through its expanding and contracting motions very quickly and that's all.
The experience of a CVT simply feels cheap and rubbery. It's dog shit, and simply aimed at fuel economy.
And there's your answer as to why I don't know what it is!
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
We've talked a lot about it in past threads. Mags and critics rag on them non stop too.
An aftermarket rear view camera is an easy fix for the used car. And if you go new you might as well get the BRZ with the performance pack.
There is not going to be anyone here who won't recommend the V6, but someone like you will be fine with the 4 cylinder. I spent most of my life driving slower vehicles than your Accord
Honda's CVTs are actually pretty decent. Not that they are fun to drive, but they do a good job at not giving away the fact you are driving a CVT. The average person would never know.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Driving and alcohol, those are the only reasons to go. Very sorry to say!
Unknown Soldier
Member
Yeah, it ended up being $10k extra because the car had dealer-installed accessories and I was like nope, I didn't ask for this and I don't want it so the 2017 is out at this point.
This particular dealership is an enormous complex, and they owned a Mazda dealership too, so the sales guy was nice and drove me over to the Mazda down the road and I took a 2017 Miata cloth-top for a spin today too.
It's hard to explain it, because the vehicles do handle rather similarly, but the Miata definitely felt more refined. The FR-S felt more animal, more rough, like a beast that could barely control itself. I would touch the gas and the thing would just want to launch itself. The Miata felt like an elegant European sports car by comparison, acceleration off pressing the gas was definitely more controlled, like a ballroom dancer starting a routine. Interestingly enough, cabin noise is definitely higher on the FR-S even though it's a hardtop and the Miata was a cloth-top convertible.
Doing the same test, on the same freeway on-ramp, from a standing start, flooring the Miata definitely felt more controlled, the car definitely shifted more smoothly and acceleration curve was much flatter. You definitely feel the "torque dip" on the FR-S when you floor it, the car feels like it hesitates a moment around 4000 rpm before suddenly gaining confidence and pushing forward. Again, this is hard to explain, it's like a charging bull compared to a running cheetah maybe. The bull is rough and angry and looks like it wants to kill something as it races forward. The cheetah is smooth and silky and lethal on the strike.
Of the two, the Miata definitely feels like the nicer car. It's also roughly $14k more expensive, as the dealer was offering me $19.5k to drive the FR-S off the lot today but the Miata would be closer to $35k before I tried to haggle them down. I don't know if the Miata is worth 75% more money, it's definitely a nicer car but is it 75% more nice? I really can't say.
Honestly for $19.5k plus the dealer offering me 3.49% terms on the loan, I almost took the FR-S. Both cars are incredibly fun to drive and feel really great on the test drive route. However I begged the sales guy off, I kinda felt bad about it too because I ended up being there more than 3 hours. I'm going to have to think about this a bit.
The FR-S is blue. I love blue. The Miata is black. I love black too.
TimeEffect
Member
What does it mean to have "fun" driving?
I feel like I made a major mistake. The car is already sitting in the lot with my name on it. Is it too late to switch?
Fucking hell why didnt I do my research better on CVTs and V6 engines.
I feel like I made a major mistake. The car is already sitting in the lot with my name on it. Is it too late to switch?
Fucking hell why didnt I do my research better on CVTs and V6 engines.
Lol you'll be fine don't worry. The Accord is a nice car and it'll serve you well.
Driving fun is a bit hard to explain. If you have fun driving you'll know it haha. It is a lot about having confidence in the way the car performs. Some people really don't care about it however. I would check the details of any paperwork you signed. If you haven't picked it up yet and want to change your mind to a different car at the same dealer I can't imagine them throwing a huge fuss about it. Although car dealers are typically shady.
Tough choice. You should be able to do a little better on the financing APR. Most banks are offering under 3% if you go to them directly on used cars. What is the odometer reading? I can also run the numbers for you if you want and get you an estimate on what they paid for the car
Hey, 2014 gt86 (frs) owner here, some things to consider:
Factory rear view camera for the car is about $8 used on eBay, since they use the same model in most of their cars, can be installed easily.
Widening the wheels even by 1J will take away the wild slidy nature, only do it if you want to kick the arse end out at higher speeds, or need the extra control for mountain circuits.
Supercharger / Turbo will drastically liven up the engine once you get used to its current power (which stock, isn't super), I got stupid and went with both, was a huge pain in the ass and it stalls on really hot days because the o2 sensors too far back on the pipes.
Did more than double the awhp though.
If you're fine with the power but just want it to sound more aggressive , swap out the catted header for an unequal length one, will give it the characteristic Subaru burble, you will, unless super lucky, need a tune afterwards to avoid CEL popping up, which brings me to....
OFT (open flash tablet) if you buy an frs, get one, you'll be able to improve throttle response and resolve most of the torque dip with a stock tune, out of the box, will happily tune for an uel header, turbo, supercharger or even e85 if you're feeling the need.
The car, stock, isn't as good as a Miata, in my opinion, but you can make it a better car and still have spent less total.
Also be prepared for just about everyone you meet to tell you it's slow, it's the one sound byte that stuck in people's minds and the one they most often spew up, somewhat true for a stock car so do like I did and make it a sleeper.
P.s. Get a manual, and don't upshift under 3k rpm.
Unknown Soldier
Member
22,414 miles. Yeah if you can see the real numbers, I'm interested in finding out the cost on their end, stuff like Cars.com and other websites estimated an Excellent condition (which expect CPO to be) is around $18k and change. I wonder what the actual internal dealer cost number is.
I actually called my bank (Chase) and they said for the car I wanted the best they could offer me was 4.34%. I wasn't too happy about that. Maybe I should call the bank that has my mortgage (Wells Fargo) and see what they say. I'm not sure if there's good places on the Internet I could try to get a good loan rate at?
Interesting read. Thank you!
TimeEffect
Member
yeah ill do a quick list of similar honda tourings online
You think so? I think so too, and I don't know if the enthusiasts are just more sensitive than I am.
But then I think about enjoying a car with a powerful engine, and it definitely sounds fun, but never something Id do commonly if ever.
Still, the V6 gets praised for smoothness, and people say the CVT has a humming sound, and all of that greatly confuses me.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
I prefer white for cars.Stealth grey is the way to go
Not sure on the additional valuation for CPO. Definitely try other banks. Credit unions tend to offer the best rates if you qualify for them (besides any dealer promotional rate that is). I've also done Bank of America and gotten the lowest rate listed on their site before.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Thank you!
I wonder what a good value to try and throw back at the dealer is then. Could they really have paid the guy who traded it in only $13k? They offered me $19.5k without any real pressure on my part. I wonder how much lower I could make them go if I tried. I don't really know how quickly the FR-S sells on the used market, especially CPOs, so I don't know how long I can hold out to try and make them come down further.
I've been submitting other applications to banks online but it seems I may be waiting some time for a response since the next business day is Monday. I didn't realize that you're supposed to do the pre-approval step with banks before you even set foot on the dealer's lot, so I'm going to have to backtrack now and try to get better financing terms before I go back and attempt to negotiate.
jongkookie
Member
About "fun" driving...
Honestly this all depends. Some people think drag racing is fun while some also think attacking corners is fun too.
At the end of the day though, you sorta have to know what kind of fun you're looking for. If you don't know what type of fun works for you then just drive... you'll eventually figure it out.
Yeah I gotta second this statement.
My dad's Accord has the 2.4L engine and a CVT, and tbh I don't really notice that it's a CVT in daily driving. It's only when I start pushing it hard when it happens coz it has such a crappy sound lol.
The "fake gears" are actually useful too. Same Accord has paddle shifters so if I need to make a pass, I just hit the "downshift" paddle and it "drops" it down a gear(technically it jumps to a higher RPM) and I can make a pretty quick pass that way. It sorta feels like a regular tranny tbh.
Honestly, as a Miata owner, I'd save the $15K or whatever and get the FR-S instead.
Why?
Because you only got a taste of what a Miata truly is and you wouldn't know any better how really good it is lol.
Seriously, you will fall in love with this thing and the only replacement you'll ever find is a 911, Boxster/Cayman, or a brand new Miata(whatever the next generation is going to be).
I've searched far and wide to replace my NC in the last year and since I'm too poor to afford a P-car, I'll be replacing my NC with an ND sometime this year.
Alright joking aside, I'd go based on your finances tbh. If you can afford a $35K Miata, then hell yes go for it. But if it's too unreasonable for your bank account, then go with the FR-S. You honestly won't go wrong with either car.
Honestly this all depends. Some people think drag racing is fun while some also think attacking corners is fun too.
At the end of the day though, you sorta have to know what kind of fun you're looking for. If you don't know what type of fun works for you then just drive... you'll eventually figure it out.
Yeah I gotta second this statement.
My dad's Accord has the 2.4L engine and a CVT, and tbh I don't really notice that it's a CVT in daily driving. It's only when I start pushing it hard when it happens coz it has such a crappy sound lol.
The "fake gears" are actually useful too. Same Accord has paddle shifters so if I need to make a pass, I just hit the "downshift" paddle and it "drops" it down a gear(technically it jumps to a higher RPM) and I can make a pretty quick pass that way. It sorta feels like a regular tranny tbh.
Honestly, as a Miata owner, I'd save the $15K or whatever and get the FR-S instead.
Why?
Because you only got a taste of what a Miata truly is and you wouldn't know any better how really good it is lol.
Seriously, you will fall in love with this thing and the only replacement you'll ever find is a 911, Boxster/Cayman, or a brand new Miata(whatever the next generation is going to be).
I've searched far and wide to replace my NC in the last year and since I'm too poor to afford a P-car, I'll be replacing my NC with an ND sometime this year.
Alright joking aside, I'd go based on your finances tbh. If you can afford a $35K Miata, then hell yes go for it. But if it's too unreasonable for your bank account, then go with the FR-S. You honestly won't go wrong with either car.
opticalmace
Member
I think I've compiled a list of cars I'm considering (20-30k, preferably a couple years used), with an emphasis on fun. Not sure yet how practical I want to go:
NC Miata
ND Miata
FR-S/86/BRZ
WRX
Fiesta ST
Honda Fit (because why not)
Mazda 3?
...and the wildcard to save some cash, NA Miata.
I'll definitely need to go drive these to really know. I'm generally biased towards light weight, nimble, low power cars I think (the way I like my motorbikes).
Moving to the states in ~5-6 weeks, then the shopping begins. Ahhhh, new experience for me (after driving an inherited automatic Toyota Matrix for the last 10 years).
NC Miata
ND Miata
FR-S/86/BRZ
WRX
Fiesta ST
Honda Fit (because why not)
Mazda 3?
...and the wildcard to save some cash, NA Miata.
I'll definitely need to go drive these to really know. I'm generally biased towards light weight, nimble, low power cars I think (the way I like my motorbikes).
Moving to the states in ~5-6 weeks, then the shopping begins. Ahhhh, new experience for me (after driving an inherited automatic Toyota Matrix for the last 10 years).
You know, what's remarkable to me is that whenever there's two cars that are the same class, target driver, overall package, you ultimately get fans of either car battling to the bitter end about who owns the better of the two, but what I have found, for the most part, is that (aside from the rich teens who pick one of them up because muh stance nationz / built 2 park), owns of miatas and owners of 86/frs/brz get along remarkably well, and appreciate and respect both vehicles, even recommending one or the other when someones asking about them, as we have just done in the past few posts - me stating that a stock miata is better than a stock frs, and you stating that the frs is the better option if you're not looking to spend more cash.
Just wanted to take a moment to recognize that because it's quite rare in the car scene these days
Try out PenFed for online credit union. They do a lot of car financing at great rates and are supposed to be super easy to work with.
I do too (white evo x). Was just surprised how nice that grey looks in person. But if that's the most common color for the car, that's a bit of a turn off, so white it is. Looks much better with the blue highlights anyway
TimeEffect
Member
So whats the average 0-60 of cars? Im wOndering if my accord touring 2016 is better than average despite not being as fast as the v6
Also, when people test 0-60 do they absolutely floor the acceleration? Ive never pressed it all the way at once
Also is there any good book on learning about cars? Ive become fascinated with the history, early models, and innovations
Im watching a bunch of old car commercials and its soooo cool
Also, when people test 0-60 do they absolutely floor the acceleration? Ive never pressed it all the way at once
Also is there any good book on learning about cars? Ive become fascinated with the history, early models, and innovations
Im watching a bunch of old car commercials and its soooo cool
rokkerkory
Member
Thats a wide range of cars there.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Beautiful car. I currently daily a white '17 WRX and I do really like how the evos look. It's too bad they got discontinued.
opticalmace
Member
Yeah lol. I've been mostly into bikes lately so I haven't driven any fun cars in a long time. Going to hit up some dealerships today and try to whittle it down a bit.
SliChillax
Member
I agree with Alpha, which makes this article so confusing for me to understand.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...s-an-automatic-and-it-isnt-even-the-best-one/
Unknown Soldier
Member
Wow...thanks for this tip!
They approved me online for 1.99%........
It's funny, PenFed (Pentagon Federal Credit Union) is supposed to be for .mil or DoD or family but they want business so they have a loophole where you can donate $17 to one of two military charities and you can join. Sure, I'll pay $17 + $5 to fund the account opening to get this interest rate. Thanks, US Government!
edit:
Oh. The PenFed loan is a secured loan and the paperwork clearly states this loan puts a lien on the purchased vehicle. On second thought, I don't need this hassle. I did find Lightstream.com and they offered me 2.19% for an unsecured loan so I'll just go with that. I'm cool with my donation, the US Government can keep the 17 bucks, I don't mind supporting the military lol
I'd consider myself fairly knowledgeable on cars and certainly a petrol head but id never heard of a CVT until reading the last few pages lmao.
How common are they? Alphas description was useful and on that brief explanation, sounds like it would have benefits would it not? I'm off to do some reading...
How common are they? Alphas description was useful and on that brief explanation, sounds like it would have benefits would it not? I'm off to do some reading...
For a normal car? Probably 6-7 seconds. On GAF? 3.2s. Before mods.
Correct.
Lots of good books and videos around
Heres a good F1 one I saw recently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocS4O7-WlhI
and of course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Ni80v6w-o&list=PL9E2CFAB4D22C729F
I haven't posted on gaf in a while, thank you to everybody who wished me well after my car accident. Did end up finding another mint B5 S4 on craigslist for only $800, which just needed a $100 accessory belt tensioner to get it driving again. This one has the sport package and white alcantara seat inserts which is cool. I just need to get to coffee stains out and give it a shave to have it looking proper. Probably would be wisest to flip it real quick for a few grand but that's not the plan. I'm parting out my wrecked S4 at the moment and keeping what I want for the new s4.
So something interesting happened last night. The previous owner of the orange E30 I picked up a little less than a year ago messaged me out of the blue. He had found me on facebook and says he's been trying to track me down for months. My phone number did change so that could have made it a challenge. He said he regretted selling the car and his little kid has been asking him constantly about it. So I'm selling that car back to him, which was really good timing on his part because I was about to sell it to a co-worker. I'm happy to move on to something else, which brings me to what I really want to talk about.
Anybody here have knowledge on the e36? More specifically the E36 M3? Does this M3 at 4k on craigslist look like a potential huge mistake or a brilliant investment? Any common issues to look out for if I go see the car? At just a glance the wiring in the engine bay looks a bit ratty, seats looks rare but also need some attention, much prefer stock M3 wheels, not sure about the welds on the strut towers, and I'm sure the body has over 200k miles.
So something interesting happened last night. The previous owner of the orange E30 I picked up a little less than a year ago messaged me out of the blue. He had found me on facebook and says he's been trying to track me down for months. My phone number did change so that could have made it a challenge. He said he regretted selling the car and his little kid has been asking him constantly about it. So I'm selling that car back to him, which was really good timing on his part because I was about to sell it to a co-worker. I'm happy to move on to something else, which brings me to what I really want to talk about.
Anybody here have knowledge on the e36? More specifically the E36 M3? Does this M3 at 4k on craigslist look like a potential huge mistake or a brilliant investment? Any common issues to look out for if I go see the car? At just a glance the wiring in the engine bay looks a bit ratty, seats looks rare but also need some attention, much prefer stock M3 wheels, not sure about the welds on the strut towers, and I'm sure the body has over 200k miles.
It specifically talks about a cvt transmission tuned for racing which would be good but normal cars are tuned for economy and the likes. They just make for a boring vehicle in normal cars. My mom's altima had a cvt and the fucking noice it makes is horrible. Lol. Put it in sport mode and it mimics the steps but it's still pretty boring lol.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
I daily a '17 WRX ('15-'17 are the exact same) and I would say it's a good purchase depending on what you want. If you want a sporty daily driver/commuter then the WRX isn't a bad choice. I'll run off a few pros and cons for you after daily driving it for almost a year now:
Pros:
-Soft suspension which results in a comfortable ride, but stiff enough to attack corners hard.
-Tires, cornering grip, etc. are fantastic.
-Decent MPG (you will average between 22-24)
Cons:
-Absolutely garbage stock tune, which results in 1-5:
-1.) feels like shit when you are driving
-2.) the power sucks
-3.) there is a massive dead spot between 4-5k RPM, the car has basically zero pull in this RPM range. once it gets past 5k it starts to pull again.
-4.) the stock tune results in the throttle pedal being not linear at all. 80% of the throttle is in the first 20% of pedal. this results in an extremely touchy throttle, and makes it hard to drive for beginners.
-5.) absurd amount of rev hang, especially in gears 1 > 2 > 3. Basically when you push in the clutch to shift, the RPM doesn't drop for about 2 seconds. This was added for emissions and really feels like shit to drive with.
-the gearbox feels like shit. it is extremely crunchy, especially the 1 > 2 shift. it feels like you are kayaking on rocks.
-the transmission is extremely unforgiving for shifting. you have to almost "catch" the transmission/engine friction point when letting out the clutch, and slip it with some throttle. if you don't, be prepared to be thrown through the windshield.
-1st and 2nd gears are incredibly short, and extremely overly jerky. this makes low speed driving (parking lots, etc.) more difficult than it needs to be. you will learn to slip the clutch in this car a lot more than you normally would have to just to keep things smooth.
To sum up the cons, AWD manuals are harder to drive smoothly in general than RWD/FWD cars, but the WRX takes it to the next level. This is probably the most difficult new car sold today to learn a manual transmission on. A lot of the issues with the car can be fixed with a stage 1 tune that comes with a COBB Accessport. The crunchy, shit feeling, gearbox, can be smoothed a bit using aftermarket bolt on parts, like the Perrin shift stop. Lastly, the car just isn't very fast. It doesn't pull hard at all. It's actually kind of disappointing and you will get bored of it pretty quickly. The ~'14 WRXs with the EJ pull harder, but the 15-17 with the FA20DIT just has no soul. 100% stock, the WRX is just rough around the edges. I've been reading /r/WRX for the past year, and I have seen countless dozens of posts highlighting every single one of the issues I mentioned.
TimeEffect
Member
Ok asking for a friend:
VW Jetta '16 TSI. Has feats like leather seats, Blindside, etc
Is this a good purchase for a basic commuter (drive to work and back)
VW Jetta '16 TSI. Has feats like leather seats, Blindside, etc
Is this a good purchase for a basic commuter (drive to work and back)