• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (Economist)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
I see, so now is every 'simpler' men with a blue-collar job a failure. Nice high horse you have there.

I have read Ami's post four times and he doesn't use any of the words or ideas you're attributing to him.

I would also remind folks that being a misogynist and a bigot is a much greater disadvantage to success with women than any kind of job or educational disadvantage.
 
I have read Ami's post four times and he doesn't use any of the words or ideas you're attributing to him.

Then read a fifth time:

This is just what people like him must tell themselves in order to continue to live in a world where they're painfully inadequate at competing at the level so many modern women are. If they don't make up some laughably pathetic excuse for their failings, they won't be able to continue living soundly.
 
If you want to be a truck driver, you need at least an eighth-grade education to handle the paperwork, she observes; that is, the mental skills a 13- or 14-year-old is supposed to have, and which men disproportionately lack.

Men are disproportionately lacking the mental skills of a 13/14 year old? I am concerned for the future of whichever country this study took place in.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I think you should read it a sixth time, because you're bolding shit and still fail basic reading comprehension.

No wonder people fear women in college. Basic english is difficult for some apparently.
 
My real competition should be men, but many of them just fuck themselves over from just laziness and entitlement, no effort on my part required.
Yep, and those black folks should pull up their pants and get a job too. And stop being criminals. Damn their laziness and entitlement.

Do you not feel that men can be just as much a victim of the system as women? The article pointed out that while the upper echelons of power are still dominated by men, it's also increasingly the case that men occupy the bottom rungs of economic power as well, especially minority men. All while making up the vast majority of the prison population (which in turn makes them unhirable and doomed to remain in poverty). Perhaps boys/men are not to blame so much as society for ingraining such beliefs about education in them.

And now for what is definitely a more controversial thought: perhaps feminists are partially to blame by constantly reminding us we live in a patriarchy where men are the beneficiaries of numerous benefits. If a boy internalizes that idea, he might subconsciously start to feel like he doesn't need to work as hard because the patriarchy will still help him make it out on top. Despite a large body of evidence to the contrary.
 
Then read a fifth time:

So are we now to assume you think every blue collar worker is only a blue collar worker because didn't go to college because women have made it hostile to men?

Because the only people Amir0x was talking about are morons who blame women for just about everything and who say that college is hostile to men (again because of feminists and the like)

So unless you think all a=b then sure that's what Amir0x, bu if you think a=b you're oh what's are the words? Oh yeah so laughably and deludedly wrong.
 
Yep, and those black folks should pull up their pants and get a job too. And stop being criminals. Damn their laziness and entitlement.

Do you not feel that men can be just as much a victim of the system as women? The article pointed out that while the upper echelons of power are still dominated by men, it's also increasingly the case that men occupy the bottom rungs of economic power as well, especially minority men. All while making up the vast majority of the prison population (which in turn makes them unhirable and doomed to remain in poverty). Perhaps boys/men are not to blame so much as society for ingraining such beliefs about education in them.

And now for what is definitely a more controversial thought: perhaps feminists are partially to blame by constantly reminding us we live in a patriarchy where men are the beneficiaries of numerous benefits. If a boy internalizes that idea, he might subconsciously start to feel like he doesn't need to work as hard because the patriarchy will still help him make it out on top. Despite a large body of evidence to the contrary.

*cough* minority women *cough*

But yes feminists are responsible for making boys lazy by talking about the Patriarchy.
 

Amir0x

Banned
And now for what is definitely a more controversial thought: perhaps feminists are partially to blame by constantly reminding us we live in a patriarchy where men are the beneficiaries of numerous benefits. If a boy internalizes that idea, he might subconsciously start to feel like he doesn't need to work as hard because the patriarchy will still help him make it out on top. Despite a large body of evidence to the contrary.

haha seriously follow this circular logic

Feminist are to somewhat to blame for certain male failures... for reinforcing indisputable statistics about the dramatic inequality of women and men in this country? Females/feminists are supposed to be concerned about ringing the alarm bell about these fucked up injustices and somehow tone down how vigilant they are at trying to change it because some men might not respond well to it? Only a man could truly believe that someone who has suffered endless generations of injustice must somehow mute/reduce their cries for change because it's hurting other men. Truly fucking outrageous.

Fuck right off with that shit. Those men DESERVE to fail then. I'd say the fact that there has been like 200,000 straight years of shriveled dick assholes using fear, power and pure bullshit to dominate the opposite sex means it's time for them to deal with facing down the harsh reality of the environment they've created for women.
 

Klossen

Banned
I think you should read it a sixth time, because you're bolding shit and still fail basic reading comprehension.

No wonder people fear women in college. Basic english is difficult for some apparently.

Being passive aggressive is still being aggressive.
 

sonicmj1

Member
There is a famous quote, "you can't outsource plumbing to China" Those jobs aren't shrinking, not yet anyway. You are referencing manufacturing jobs which are indeed becoming more mechanized and need less and less bodies.

The skilled trades will always be in demand until we have cylons. But we know how that one ends too.

We can't replace all the construction and manufacturing jobs lost with plumbers and electricians. What happens to those men?

A man without much book-learning could find steady work at the mill or in the fields. But the lumber mill has closed, and on nearby farms “jobs that used to take 100 men now take ten,” observes Jason McGuffie, a pastor. A strong pair of hands is no longer enough.

Blue-collar jobs require more skills than they used to, notes Katie McCarty of the North East Louisiana Workforce Centres, a job-placement agency. If you want to be a truck driver, you need at least an eighth-grade education to handle the paperwork, she observes; that is, the mental skills a 13- or 14-year-old is supposed to have, and which men disproportionately lack.

A mechanical digger can replace dozens of men with spades; a Chinese steelworker is cheaper than an American.

In America pay for men with only a high school diploma fell 21% in real terms between 1979 and 2013; for those who dropped out of high school it fell by a staggering 34%.

Also men being giant whiny babbys pretending to be victims of nothing

Utter nonsense created by someone incapable of taking responsibility for their own failings. You don't want to go to college now because you'd be comically unprepared to deal with how awfully you would do in an environment where learning is a crucial component, and conspiracy theories from the gutter snatch of the world's most intellectually dishonest anti-feminist don't thrive.

Poor men, poor men. Such a difficult life you will lead swimming through that mire of pig shit you trick yourself into believing. And if you can believe that, it's no wonder college today ain't for you.

I know these posts are in response to the video about men in college, but this thead is about an entire article demonstrating the very real challenges that working class men face. It's weird to be so flippant about their difficulties when so many are struggling with the current economic realities.
 
Oh, I am not doubting that it would be much more difficult for uneducated men. I am saying that it is very difficult for men in general, both educated and uneducated. Isn't there some kind of okcupid or match chart that shows how unlikely women are to respond to messages in general? I just think it is really interesting that women continue to reject men at such high rates when in reality, the odds are stacked against them. There has to be more to the story than just income and education.
I wonder if that just comes down to the fact that in most cases men are still the pursuers while women are the ones being pursued. And given that dating sites allow you to "pursue" (i.e. message) a vast number of people, women are going to be getting lots of date proposals. Out of necessity they will reject a lot of them.

Maybe the relative scarcity of "dateable" men will start to reverse the trend and force more women into the pursuer role?
 

sonicmj1

Member
Men are disproportionately lacking the mental skills of a 13/14 year old? I am concerned for the future of whichever country this study took place in.

All countries.

20150530_ESC891_1.png
 

Amir0x

Banned
Being passive aggressive is still being aggressive.

Nobody is denying aggression; these assholes deserve aggression in return to their abject bullshit reared from the deepest depths of their intellectual failures.

My only concern with the post you quoted was reiterating that the dude wasn't even in the same stratosphere of understanding what my basic English sentence construction was conveying. If he had said my post was aggressive, I'd say "ok, cool." But he didn't, he just made up a lot of nonsense and pretended that's what my post was saying. It's no surprise these are the types of people having problems adapting to modern society.

I know these posts are in response to the video about men in college, but this thead is about an entire article demonstrating the very real challenges that working class men face. It's weird to be so flippant about their difficulties when so many are struggling with the current economic realities.

But not because of women or feminists. That's the point.
 

Mii

Banned
Yep, and those black folks should pull up their pants and get a job too. And stop being criminals. Damn their laziness and entitlement.

Do you not feel that men can be just as much a victim of the system as women? The article pointed out that while the upper echelons of power are still dominated by men, it's also increasingly the case that men occupy the bottom rungs of economic power as well, especially minority men. All while making up the vast majority of the prison population (which in turn makes them unhirable and doomed to remain in poverty). Perhaps boys/men are not to blame so much as society for ingraining such beliefs about education in them.


And now for what is definitely a more controversial thought: perhaps feminists are partially to blame by constantly reminding us we live in a patriarchy where men are the beneficiaries of numerous benefits. If a boy internalizes that idea, he might subconsciously start to feel like he doesn't need to work as hard because the patriarchy will still help him make it out on top. Despite a large body of evidence to the contrary.

You can choose your reason for why there is a war on drugs, why men are attracted to their use, and why they end up in jail for it. If you think it's feminism that does that, power to you I guess.

You can choose your reason for why men seem to be caught for theft. If you want to blame feminism for that too, okay.

What I will tell you is even if it were, you probably have far more effective ways of reducing the problems modern men face. For instance, perhaps instilling an idea that nothing comes easy is the starting point. That men need to start fighting like underdogs. If you need women as a boogeyman to rally around, okay, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways. Blaming women starts sounding a lot like blaming foreigners for taking the jobs.

The point is, fucking rally and begin actually trying again or you will be crushed.
 
So are we now to assume you think every blue collar worker is only a blue collar worker because didn't go to college because women have made it hostile to men?

No, you read me wrong, maybe I worded myself wrong. I don't believe in a hostile environment for men on campuses etc. At least not more hostile than the average job. I mean, is it so hard to understand that there are people out there who have not the intellectual capacities to study? Probability more than we think. But instead of trying to help those men by creating a truly equal relationship between the sexes (women brings the majority of cash and doesn't care for his financial status), we are blaming the men on their learning abilities and forcing them to do stuff they have no skills for. Those men feel left out. They living a life in quite loneliness and are brandmarked as useless and unable to hold a relationship with modern women.
 
I just started sewer maintenance and repair while I do school in industrial engineering. People are missing the boat on calling blue collars lazy to not go to college. Really these guys are just progressing as they were raised and are doing what they know from their parents, just as most white collars do by virtue of their folks. They make adjustments for the future by vowing to send their kids to college. Talent and go getters are harder to find now than 30 years ago in these areas, and it will continue to trend that way. Someone must be a pipe locator, or a plumber, but people know what is required of the future.
 
We can't replace all the construction and manufacturing jobs lost with plumbers and electricians. What happens to those men?


I know these posts are in response to the video about men in college, but this thead is about an entire article demonstrating the very real challenges that working class men face. It's weird to be so flippant about their difficulties when so many are struggling with the current economic realities.

So you know those last two were directed at people claiming men are failing to go to school because feminists have made colleges hostile to men right, but you want them to what just keep silent out of respect for the concept of the thread?

They're not being flippant about working class men, they're being flippant at two things:

A) The idea that so many are only working class because women have made college a hostile environment for men

B) Any man who (and I'm going to guess it's no where near even 10%, at least I;d like to hope), who actively blame women for them dropping out of college.

So yeah... maybe tell the other folks not to shit up a thread about men by doing the tired out it's feminist' and women's faults, instead of getting mad that people engage those people with the righteous mocking they deserve

No, you read me wrong, maybe I worded myself wrong. I don't believe in a hostile environment for men on campuses etc. At least not more hostile than the average job. I mean, is it so hard to understand that there are people out there who have not the intellectual capacities to study? Probability more than we think. But instead of trying to help those men by creating a truly equal relationship between the sexes (women brings the majority of cash and doesn't care for his financial status), we are blaming the men on their learning abilities and forcing them to do stuff they have no skills for. Those men feel left out. They living a life in quite loneliness and are brandmarked as useless and unable to hold a relationship with modern women.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/29/breadwinner-moms/

Mothers are breadwinners in 40% of households with kids soooo kinda happening, though shock and surprise 67% of that number of them are single moms. But i'm sure that is also the fault of the women.
 

Dennis

Banned
- A crash in the ratio of eligible young bachelors (those w/ jobs) relative to the total number of women that now gives men much more leverage than before in selecting partners

As a man with a Ph.D. I can confirm that it is indeed a life of non-stop sexual debauchery.
 

Skeyser

Member
Oh, I am not doubting that it would be much more difficult for uneducated men. I am saying that it is very difficult for men in general, both educated and uneducated. Isn't there some kind of okcupid or match chart that shows how unlikely women are to respond to messages in general? I just think it is really interesting that women continue to reject men at such high rates when in reality, the odds are stacked against them. There has to be more to the story than just income and education.

The vast majority of messages women receive on dating sites are ridiculous though. No surprise they won't answer to messages like "heyy honey love your picturez" or guys twice their age.
 

sonicmj1

Member
So you know those last two were directed at people claiming men are failing to go to school because feminists have made colleges hostile to men right, but you want them to what just keep silent out of respect for the concept of the thread?

They're not being flippant about working class men, they're being flippant at two things:

A) The idea that so many are only working class because women have made college a hostile environment for men

B) Any man who (and I'm going to guess it's no where near even 10%, at least I;d like to hope), who actively blame women for them dropping out of college.

So yeah... maybe tell the other folks not to shit up a thread about men by doing the tired out it's feminist' and women's faults, instead of getting mad that people engage those people with the righteous mocking they deserve

When I said "their" I was referring to men in general, not to the men making those specific complaints about college in particular. As the article demonstrates, the issues working class men face start way earlier than college, and are in part a result of the exact sort of patriarchy that feminism seeks to dismantle.

Maybe the complaint I was making was poor reading comprehension on my part. It just felt weird to see phrases like "Poor men," sarcastically used in this thread.
 
haha seriously follow this circular logic

Feminist are to somewhat to blame for certain male failures... for reinforcing indisputable statistics about the dramatic inequality of women and men in this country? Females/feminists are supposed to be concerned about ringing the alarm bell about these fucked up injustices and somehow tone down how vigilant they are at trying to change it because some men might not respond well to it? Only a man could truly believe that someone who has suffered endless generations of injustice must somehow mute/reduce their cries for change because it's hurting other men. Truly fucking outrageous.

Fuck right off with that shit. Those men DESERVE to fail then. I'd say the fact that there has been like 200,000 straight years of shriveled dick assholes using fear, power and pure bullshit to dominate the opposite sex means it's time for them to deal with facing down the harsh reality of the environment they've created for women.
I don't think any one person has suffered endless generations of injustice. Most live only through a few generations. I think it's important to point out that a woman's struggles today =/= all women's struggles throughout all of history. Similarly, to say that men today deserve to fail because of sexism in the past (that they had nothing to do with and had no control over) seems a bit harsh.

And, no, I don't expect feminists to mute their cries of injustice to appease men. However, I expect anyone who advocates equality to give a damn when half of the population has what appears to have a systemic disadvantage, as in, say, education. Or incarceration rates.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I don't think any one person has suffered endless generations of injustice. Most live only through a few generations. I think it's important to point out that a woman's struggles today =/= all women's struggles throughout all of history. Similarly, to say that men today deserve to fail because of sexism in the past (that they had nothing to do with and had no control over) seems a bit harsh.

Every woman alive today still feels the residual effects of endless generations of injustice, AND that injustice continues today. It's yet another hurdle they have to overcome that makes it statistically less likely for success. People always love to deny that simple fact: blacks continue to face negative reverberations from slavery, from jim crow, from white flight. Just because it's not happening today does not mean those modern individuals are not still suffering from it. Same for women.

Likewise, women today live in a society that is still reverberating from those thousands of years of almost straight injustices and male domination. It takes a very long time to completely erase the effects of holding back a people for thousands of years with laws, educational deficiencies, violence, psychological torture. And every year injustices continue, the longer you'll have to wait for it to actually finally be OK.

So no, you're wrong. Women alive today DO still suffer the injustices of endless generations.

And, no, I don't expect feminists to mute their cries of injustice to appease men. However, I expect anyone who advocates equality to give a damn when half of the population has what appears to have a systemic disadvantage, as in, say, education. Or incarceration rates.

Loudly and continually proclaiming the indisputable injustices toward women have nothing to do with male education and incarceration rates. Women have zero to do with that. A feminist is not required to mention men when trying to fix problems that affect them.

This is just yet another boring, tedious reiteration of the "BUT MEN TOO" movement. Men are not required to be mentioned by women advocating for their own rights. Time for them to deal with it.
 
When I said "their" I was referring to men in general, not to the men making those specific complaints about college in particular. As the article demonstrates, the issues working class men face start way earlier than college, and are in part a result of the exact sort of patriarchy that feminism seeks to dismantle.

Maybe the complaint I was making was poor reading comprehension on my part. It just felt weird to see phrases like "Poor men," sarcastically used in this thread.

Poor men was directed a very specific group of men who blame women for everything and think the world is out to get them because feminists, as was clear with the interactions and impetuses for the responses. So yes I'd say it was probably because you read the room wrong.

It happens :)
 
Thanks for the link, I will read it later more closely.

Also

Asked how important it is for a man to be able to support a family financially if he wants to get married, fully 67% of the public say it is “very important.” But when the same question is asked about a woman, just 33% say it is very important.

There are some differences by gender in these responses, but they do not alter the basic pattern. Among male respondents, 70% say a man who is about to marry must be able to support a family, while just 27% say the same about a woman. Among female respondents, 64% say that about a man and 39% about a woman.

More women are more comfortable with being the breadwinner then men are with them being the bread winner so maybe don't blame women for like everything eh?

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/11/18/iii-marriage/

 
You can choose your reason for why there is a war on drugs, why men are attracted to their use, and why they end up in jail for it. If you think it's feminism that does that, power to you I guess.

You can choose your reason for why men seem to be caught for theft. If you want to blame feminism for that too, okay.

What I will tell you is even if it were, you probably have far more effective ways of reducing the problems modern men face. For instance, perhaps instilling an idea that nothing comes easy is the starting point. That men need to start fighting like underdogs. If you need women as a boogeyman to rally around, okay, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways. Blaming women starts sounding a lot like blaming foreigners for taking the jobs.

The point is, fucking rally and begin actually trying again or you will be crushed.
The reasons why men are all those things are variegated and multifaceted, I'm sure. Some of it may be a biological predisposition towards aggression. Some of it may have to do with a lack of positive role models. Some of it may have to do with holdovers of a patriarchal system of gender roles. Maybe some tiny part is played by feminist ideology.

The larger point is that men are just as much a product of society as women. And yet for some reason you expect men to be just able to pull up their bootstraps and "rally." Despite the fact that harmful attitudes are often ingrained in you before you have any means to analyze them or fight them off. If you truly believe in a harmful patriarchal system, put your money where your mouth is and blame society for the way it raises boys and men, not the boys/men who had no control over how they were raised.
 
Loudly and continually proclaiming the indisputable injustices toward women have nothing to do with male education and incarceration rates. Women have zero to do with that. A feminist is not required to mention men when trying to fix problems that affect them.

Funny that you say that, since our education system is largely in the hands of women. Did you have been recently in some kindergarten or school?
 

Condom

Member
Also



More women are more comfortable with being the breadwinner then men are with them being the bread winner so maybe don't blame women for like everything eh?

I have a better one from my school but it's in Dutch, it's a questionaire on people from 16 to 26 year olds. The better part is it also differentiates between full-time and part-time and also asks if women like to be the only one working.

Men full time+ Women part-time is the most popular, followed by Men and Women part-time and lastly both full-time.

Men part-time+Women full-time and Men non-working+Women full time have nearly 0 support.

This last thing is a problem when we get equality on the career-front, who are those women going to marry? Seems like change will be needed to be done on both sides here.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
There has to be more to the story than just income and education.

It's almost as if, as Pascal Emmanuel Gobbry put it in a column about how liberals are in denial about the sexual revolution, "widespread cultural transformations combined with the invention of cheap, reliable birth control to bring about very significant changes in the way most people in the modern West approach sexuality, relationships, the family, childbearing, and so on. These changes have been manifold, they have been widespread, and they have been profound."

Either that or its Republicans.
 

linsivvi

Member
This is just what people like him must tell themselves in order to continue to live in a world where they're painfully inadequate at competing at the level so many modern women are. If they don't make up some laughably pathetic excuse for their failings, they won't be able to continue living soundly.

Less competition for the rest of humanity I guess.
 

Assanova

Member
I wonder if that just comes down to the fact that in most cases men are still the pursuers while women are the ones being pursued. And given that dating sites allow you to "pursue" (i.e. message) a vast number of people, women are going to be getting lots of date proposals. Out of necessity they will reject a lot of them.

Maybe the relative scarcity of "dateable" men will start to reverse the trend and force more women into the pursuer role?

Honestly, I just think that a lot of women have their standards set too high when it comes to dating. I constantly see women who won't give the typical guy the time of day. They get attention from men out of their league who just want to sleep with them, and then they take that as being able to lock down a guy out of their league, and won't dare settle for men that are more realistic for them. By the time these girls realize what is really going on, they either have one or more fatherless kids, or they are at the age where men won't look at them. There is also a chart floating around somewhere that shows most women only responding to the top 10-20% of men based on physical attractiveness, while even the least attractive women constantly get messages on these dating websites.

I do agree with you in that this trend will have to change at some point. There simply are not enough men for women to hold them to such highly ridiculous standards.
 
So no, you're wrong. Women alive today DO still suffer the injustices of endless generations.
There is a distinct difference between "I am dealing with the aftereffects of slavery" and "I am currently dealing with slavery." You seem to be suggesting that nothing has changed. Yes, there are still problems that need to be corrected. But, no, women are not subject to all of the same disadvantages that they once were. At least in Western countries.

Loudly and continually proclaiming the indisputable injustices toward women have nothing to do with male education and incarceration rates. Women have zero to do with that.
Women have nothing to do with male education or incarceration rates? What? Women still disproportionately do the majority of child rearing. They are also the majority of educators, especially in elementary. Of-fucking-course they have something to do with the outcomes of their male children and students.

This is just yet another boring, tedious reiteration of the "BUT MEN TOO" movement. Men are not required to be mentioned by women advocating for their own rights. Time for them to deal with it.
This is a topic about the problems unique to men and boys in education and subsequent employment. This isn't "but men too." This is a real problem that men face. It's not made up to "combat" the issues that women face. In fact, and as noted in the article, this problem of men is having effects on women too. So it's not just limited to being a male-only problem. Why are you being dismissive of it?
 

Assanova

Member
The vast majority of messages women receive on dating sites are ridiculous though. No surprise they won't answer to messages like "heyy honey love your picturez" or guys twice their age.

I don't disagree that men send idiotic messages, however, I think it is a response to longer, well thought-out messages not getting a response at all.
 
Utter nonsense created by someone incapable of taking responsibility for their own failings. You don't want to go to college now because you'd be comically unprepared to deal with how awfully you would do in an environment where learning is a crucial component, and conspiracy theories from the gutter snatch of the world's most intellectually dishonest anti-feminist don't thrive.

Poor men, poor men. Such a difficult life you will lead swimming through that mire of pig shit you trick yourself into believing. And if you can believe that, it's no wonder college today ain't for you.

AmirOx, you seem unnecessarily hostile and mean here!?

I think you should have sympathy for people who are ignorant. I know a lot of guys who are not bad people, but who really, really struggle with academia, and I have lil brother who is on ADHD because he can't adjust to school. They are all abysmal failures, and want to get degrees. They have a lot of advantages, but that doesn't make people exempt from not being able to make a good adjustment into a adulthood.

You're right that none of these things have anything to do with women, and boys own failings is there own fault, but making fun of them or calling them out "comically" doesn't help nobody. Boys and men are really losing in education and it sucks.

Lashing out at other people (like feminists), I think, is just a response, people who have bad lives often perform. They see other groups of people winning, and then they become the target of their frustration, because they can't be responsible for their own fuck ups.
 

Ke0

Member
So if I'm reading some of the posts in this thread correctly. Women are responsible for men's lacking in the US. The same US that from 1776 (and before) until the early-mid 1900s oppressed women.

That makes...no sense.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Funny that you say that, since our education system is largely in the hands of women. Did you have been recently in some kindergarten or school?

This is like saying apparel sweatshops are largely in the hands of women and is a terrifying glimpse into a mindset I have zero interest in humoring.
 

Assanova

Member


It's almost as if, as Pascal Emmanuel Gobbry put it in a column about how liberals are in denial about the sexual revolution, "widespread cultural transformations combined with the invention of cheap, reliable birth control to bring about very significant changes in the way most people in the modern West approach sexuality, relationships, the family, childbearing, and so on. These changes have been manifold, they have been widespread, and they have been profound."

Either that or its Republicans.

I think that the pill has a lot to do with it. It allows women to be "pumped and dumped" by men that will never, ever, stick around for anything more than sex. It is fine, but these same women can't complain about there not being any good men. The good men are right in front of them, but they have been led to believe that the good men are men that were out of their league in the first place.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
The "good men" argument reminds me of the indignation and shock that terrible audition contestants on American Idol express.
 
So if I'm reading some of the posts in this thread correctly. Women are responsible for men's lacking in the US. The same US that from 1776 (and before) until the early-mid 1900s oppressed women.

That makes...no sense.
If you're referring to my posts, that would be an incorrect reading. I blame the way society is structured for many of the problems facing men. (Same goes for many of women's problems, as it happens.) Men aren't becoming bums all by themselves. They're being helped along. And it's not just men themselves that are going to have to fix that. Women, being part of the society that is shaping these men, are not off the hook. That much is true. But saying that I'm claiming "women are to blame" is not true.
 
This is like saying apparel sweatshops are largely in the hands of women and is a terrifying glimpse into a mindset I have zero interest in humoring.

I wrote it once already. When I went with my son to his first day at school, I saw tons of divorced single moms and the teachers were almost all exclusively women. We have a generation of young boys who are raised almost exclusively by women. Do you honestly think that it is a coincidence that boys are struggling in our education system while girls don't?
 

Ke0

Member
I think that the pill has a lot to do with it. It allows women to be "pumped and dumped" by men that will never, ever, stick around for anything more than sex. It is fine, but these same women can't complain about there not being any good men. The good men are right in front of them, but they have been led to believe that the good men are men that were out of their league in the first place.

Wow. Let me guess, some girl picked the "bad boy" over you mate?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I think that the pill has a lot to do with it. It allows women to be "pumped and dumped" by men that will never, ever, stick around for anything more than sex. It is fine, but these same women can't complain about there not being any good men. The good men are right in front of them, but they have been led to believe that the good men are men that were out of their league in the first place.

So you're saying that not enough women recognize the nice guys around them?
 


It's almost as if, as Pascal Emmanuel Gobbry put it in a column about how liberals are in denial about the sexual revolution, "widespread cultural transformations combined with the invention of cheap, reliable birth control to bring about very significant changes in the way most people in the modern West approach sexuality, relationships, the family, childbearing, and so on. These changes have been manifold, they have been widespread, and they have been profound."

Either that or its Republicans.


Oh the same guy who said this?

So, here’s a provocative thesis: what we typically call “the Sexual Revolution” isn’t a revolution at all, but instead a reaction, in the political sense, meaning an attempt to turn back the clock back to paganism.
Christianity effected a revolution in the Ancient world, particularly in the domain of sexuality.
I think the best way to get at this is to remember the Catholic Oscar Wilde’s quote: “Everything is about sex, except sex. Sex is about power.”
In the Ancient world, it was simply taken for granted that sex was about power. The social order was defined by a hierarchy of concentric circles. At the center, the free, male, citizen, and then in concentric circles, women, freedmen, foreigners, children, and so on. The main paradigm for sex was not heterosexual/homosexual, married/unmarried, even reproductive/non-reproductive, it was active/passive or dominant/submissive, and the main taboo was for someone who was supposed to be “active” to be “passive”.
This is why sexual slavery (particularly of children) was not frowned upon, and neither was homosexuality as long as it involved an older man and a younger man so that it was clear that the relationship had an “active” and a “passive” participant. Heterosexual marriage was also perfectly understood, since women were of a lower social status than men.
It’s worth dwelling for a second on the world that these beliefs created. The practice of expositio, the exposing of infants, was widespread and unproblematic, since children were of lower status than adults. And the extant sources we have concur: the typical fate of exposed infants was either death or ‘adoption’ into slavery, which was typically sexual slavery since that was the most profitable use for a child. Brothels specializing in child sex slaves were established, legal businesses; the majority, it seems, specializing in boy sex slaves. Sources describe sex with castrated slaves as particularly exciting, and sources report that babies were sometimes castrated so that they could work in brothels later on. Pagan apologists roundly mocked the early Christians for not only not practicing expositio (an echo of which can be found in anti-Catholic Protestant polemics against teeming mackerel-snapping families) but rescuing exposed infants and adopting them.

....
Sex is always about power, about domination. And that can be exciting. (Don’t lie.) But Christianity came on the scene proclaiming a very different ethic: Paul described marital relations as an allegory of the relationship between Christ and the Church, a relationship which was, of course, one of self-giving unto death. In a civilization that was all about power, Christianity proclaimed the end of power. Sex was endowed with a heightened sacred dimension, which meant that it could only be done under certain circumstances, precisely because it was not about power but about self-gift, just like Christ was the King who had won his victory through death on a Cross.
On the Christian reading, this facet of sexuality is very easily understandable: the urge to dominate and to “lord it over” is the sinful urge, the root of Adam’s sin, and it is not surprising that it would be such an important aspect of a central facet of our lives such as sexuality. In the classical Christian reading, sin does not exist as such, but is instead a lack or a corruption of the good. Sexuality is good, but because of sin must be disciplined and purified into a form of Christlike self-gift, whether through abstinence or through marital (reproductive) sex.
And it is not surprising that both the Old Testament and the Pauline epistles link paganism, idolatry and sexual perversion so closely. Not just because of extant historical practices of things like sacred prostitution, but because the pagan world is one where “everything is about sex, except sex which is about power.” The pagan order is the order of fractal domination: man over woman, freeborn over slave, citizen over foreigner, dominant sexual partner over submissive sexual partner. Pagan sexuality leads to a pagan worldview leads to a pagan culture and vice versa.
All of which is a long-winded way of saying: “Hey! Did you notice 50 Shades of Grey is a cultural phenomenon?”
Humans gonna human. Just like in the economic realm, if you get rid of all rules, what will happen is not a flowering of utopia; instead what will happen will be that the strong will lord it over the weak. And sexual domination is linked to social domination: notice how state school libertinism helps entrench social stratification.

Yeah he's an expert. Sorry if women don't want to go back to the 1950s.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom