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[Father_Brain]

But now I've gone cross-eyed again... what's the timeline connection between RIP and the events in FC? He goes missing he comes back, he dies in FC?

I had thought so before Batman #683 shipped, but that's not the case. #683 established that he didn't go missing at all after the helicopter crash.

As for all the books DC is currently publishing that refer to his supposed disappearance... well, after Countdown, it's just another major failure on the part of DC editorial to coordinate things with Morrison. I guess you could fudge things and say that they all take place between Final Crisis #7 and Battle for the Cowl #1, but that explanation can't work for all of them.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Also, Superman going apeshit after was so awesome.

I said it in the other thread, but Doug Mahnke is going to fucking MURDER #7.

 

[Prime crotch]

Dude. He's the God-damned Batman.

Spoiler

Murdering motherfucking Darkseid while getting Omega Sanctioned is like the craziest fucking way you can go out in comics. He went out as badass world saving Justice League Batman, that is in no way less "true" to who he's been as a character.

Also, Superman going apeshit after was so awesome.

Sups looked like he was gonna splinter the Earth in two before saving the multiverse

 

[DarienA]

Dude. He's the God-damned Batman.

Spoiler

Murdering motherfucking Darkseid while getting Omega Sanctioned is like the craziest fucking way you can go out in comics. He went out as badass world saving Justice League Batman, that is in no way less true to who he's been as a character.

Also, Superman going apeshit after was so awesome.

:lol well when you describe it like that...

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Sups looked like he was gonna splinter the Earth in two before saving the multiverse

It's why I really really love this series. It's just so fucking huge, but it's simultaneously so rooted in individual character. And it pays off so well because of that.

 

[DarienA]

I had thought so before Batman #683 shipped, but that's not the case. #683 established that he didn't go missing at all after the helicopter crash.

As for all the books DC is currently publishing that refer to his supposed disappearance... well, after Countdown, it's just another major failure on the part of DC editorial to coordinate things with Morrison. I guess you could fudge things and say that they all take place between Final Crisis #7 and Battle for the Cowl #1, but that explanation can't work for all of them.

And then to make it even crazier I thought I'd read an interview that said the Batman/Superman book will now be out of continuity(for obvious reasons).

 

[Tamanon]

I always assumed Batman/Superman was out of continuity to begin with. At least after the initial 18 issues. It just gets really fucking weird if trying to tie it in.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I always assumed Batman/Superman was out of continuity to begin with. At least after the initial 18 issues. It just gets really fucking weird if trying to tie it in.

It's always been out of current continuity, like that month, but the stuff happens generally around the same time (Supergirl, President Lex, etc) but you can never really fit it in.

 

[DarienA]

I always assumed Batman/Superman was out of continuity to begin with. At least after the initial 18 issues. It just gets really fucking weird if trying to tie it in.

It's in continuity but the timing has always been weird.. like Superman/Batman #47/#48 which I believe is when they decided to rid the world of Kryptonite.... I remember that storyline being referenced later in another book... I think....

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Honestly, I think you have to look at the timeline between RIP & Final Crisis, realize they messed up because they didn't have all their ducks in a row when Morrison wrote FC #1 like a year & a half ago (Jones needed a huge lead time) and just kinda say whatever & move on.

 

[Father_Brain]

Honestly, I think you have to look at the timeline between RIP & Final Crisis, realize they messed up because they didn't have all their ducks in a row when Morrison wrote FC #1 like a year & a half ago (Jones needed a huge lead time) and just kinda say whatever & move on.

It's easier to be forgiving in this case, just because none of the problematic books are as terrible as Countdown.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

Oh man... that "'OMGWTF' Hysteria" I mentioned in my thread title? That'd be kicking in right about now. @_@

 

[Ephemeris]

Wow.

Other than that, I'm not sure how I feel about what happened yet. =/

 

[Blader]

DiDio has already hinted that it's at least a year of Superman, Batman, and WW in whatever state they are currently (space, etc).

Oh fuck, are you serious? Again?

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

R.I.P is basically a dream the whole time (IMHO) and then batman escapes symian and moccaris(sp) machine.

 

[ZeoVGM]

That last page is haunting.

But DC went about this the wrong way. Not how you

Spoiler

kill off a character like Batman

.

 

[Prime crotch]

That last page is haunting.

But DC went about this the wrong way. Not how you

Spoiler

kill off a character like Batman

.

Why not? For the past months you've had the main title deal with his identity, what makes Batman Batman, now you see him go in full glory and guns blazing.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Why not? For the past months you've had the main title deal with his identity, what makes Batman Batman, now you see him go in full glory.

Because it made R.I.P. completely pointless.

And no, let's not try to find some deeper meaning as to what R.I.P. meant. It was to make people think that was the story they were killing Batman off in. Then FC #6 happens and it has nothing to do with R.I.P.

The final issue of R.I.P. was ALREADY anticlimactic and kind of blah. This just makes the whole arc look like it didn't matter.

If you're going to do this, you should do it in, you know, the story titled R.I.P. in his own comic. Not in the big company event right after that is unrelated to R.I.P. If this is how they wanted to do it, they shouldn't have done R.I.P. as it was.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

The "gotcha" coupled with Morrison's remarks in RIP about Batman makes me wonder... was getting zapped by Darkseid somehow part of Batman's plan? Did he want that to happen, in some masterful scheme to save the day?


Where's a Batman keikaku 'shop when you need it?

 

[Prime crotch]

Because it made R.I.P. completely pointless.

No it didn't, RIP is a great run that can stand on it's own.

And no, let's not try to find some deeper meaning as to what R.I.P. meant. It was to make people think that was the story they were killing Batman off in. Then FC #6 happens and it has nothing to do with R.I.P.

Oh really? Besides the fact that people were saying that they were not going to kill Batman on RIP since day one? That people were even looking for diferent meanings for what RIP meant? Hell Batman had even died and came back to life already before RIP, during the Three Batmans story.
And it was related to RIP, not directly but thematically.

The final issue of R.I.P. was ALREADY anticlimactic and kind of blah. This just makes the whole arc look like it didn't matter.

The final issue was great, the solicitations hype hurt it, but on it's own it's pretty damn good.

 

[ZeoVGM]

No it didn't, RIP is a great run that can stand on it's own.

That isn't related to what you quoted. It's pointless in that it's a book called R.I.P. and we had to read an unrelated story to see him die and his death wasn't related to anything that even happened in R.I.P.!

Oh really? Besides the fact that people were saying that they were not going to kill Batman on RIP since day one? That people were even looking for diferent meanings for what RIP meant?

And then what did they do? Ended up making the title be correct (so they lied about that), in an unrelated comic that came out after R.I.P. ended. It's silly

The final issue was great, the solicitations hype hurt it, but on it's own it's pretty damn good.

Nah. It was mediocre, thanks to the last few pages which felt very rushed and the whole helicopter thing was horribly stupid.



Anyway.

I'm actually surprised how negative the reaction is over on the Batman board at CBR. Yikes.

So guys, what happens if the next issue has Batman being brought back to life? No one seems to be thinking that Superman could use his little reality machine to do that.

Would you guys be pissed? Would that be a cop out?

 

[Prime crotch]

So basicly your problem isn't even with the story, just with RIP's title, since that's the entirety of your arguments. It's no use in keeping this discussion since it will only go round and around, I'll just say that the very first page of RIP's run has "BATMAN AND ROBIN WILL NEVER DIE" in big capped letters.



edit: Batman should have totally wipped out a Batrang made of God killing bullet, that would have topped Dark Knight's CSI bullet print recreation

 

[ZeoVGM]

So basicly your problem isn't even with the story, just with RIP's title, since that's the entirety of your arguments. It's no use in keeping this discussin sice it will only go round and around, I'll just say that the very first page of RIP's run has "BATMAN AND ROBIN WILL NEVER DIE" in big capped letters.

I'm saying that what the story was meant to look like in the eyes of the consumer is not what it was. It would have been okay if they did R.I.P. as it was and have that be that. But THEN to kill him AFTER in an UNRELATED story? Come on, that's cheap. Lame.

And yes "Batman and Robin will never die." And then he did. After the story ended.

 

[Prime crotch]

But THEN to kill him AFTER in an UNRELATED story?

Not unrelated, and with that I'm off to bed.
Someone else will probably come up with a better written essay of some kind about it, I mean it's the least to expect from FC's fallout.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Not unrelated, and with that I'm off to bed.
Someone else will probably come up with a better written essay of some kind about it, I mean it's the least to expect from FC's fallout.

It IS unrelated, and MANY people agree with that.

FC #7 was unrelated to R.I.P. I don't give a crap if it shares THEMES. Everything shares themes. We both know that's not what I'm talking about. I know you feel the need to stick up for it, but I can't imagine why you would argue with someone saying it was unrelated to R.I.P.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I'm saying that what the story was meant to look like in the eyes of the consumer is not what it was. It would have been okay if they did R.I.P. as it was and have that be that. But THEN to kill him AFTER in an UNRELATED story? Come on, that's cheap. Lame.

And yes "Batman and Robin will never die." And then he did. After the story ended.

Who the fuck fucking cares. Jesus Christ. Once upon time, comic book readers didn't read fucking solicitations, they read fucking comic books. Read 52. Read R.I.P. Read Final Crisis. You honestly that that Grant Morrison wasn't thinking about what he put Shilo Norman through when he thought up the Nanda Parbat sequences? Do you think that all of a sudden at the end of Final Crisis #6, reality stopped getting fucked around? You don't think that Bruce Wayne was propelled to that moment by what he went through in Nanda Parbat, and how all that unleashed the evil he had to face in R.I.P.? I mean, seriously. I get that the nature of the comic buying public dictates that anyone can just read a series like Final Crisis and it should make sense, and it does make sense. No one just shows up out of nowhere. But if you're talking about meaning and fucking resonance then you can't just erase out ALL the other Batman material Morrison wrote. Do you think he just compartmentalized all of it into separate boxes where the rest of his brain would never find it and just write all these other stories independently of the others?

People keep blaming DiDio for this and for that, but really you can't fault Morrison only having one brain where all this shit intermingles. He's been writing the story of Bruce Wayne for like three or four years now. It's not anyone else's fault if you missed some of it, because I'm not making shit up. It's there.

 

[ZeoVGM]

You don't think that Bruce Wayne was propelled to that moment by what he went through in Nanda Parbat, and how all that unleashed the evil he had to face in R.I.P.?

No, I don't. I feel as if that could have happened without any of Morrison's run.

And who cares? I do. Many others are sharing the opinion as well. It's not even fucking solicits. They did a damn story called R.I.P., said they wouldn't physically kill Batman, then in an unrelated story in a big company event DIRECTLY AFTER, what'd they do? They physically kill Batman. It's a fucking weak way to do things, and I applaud you if you somehow don't let damper your experience reading the comic, but it does for me and many others. All three employees at my LCS today were talking about how Final Crisis is a clusterfuck and the one really meaningful moment (his death, before I knew exactly what happened, they just talked about "what happened" in the issue) felt detached and anti-climatic.

If you're not bothered by it, then fine. But don't say something like "who fucking cares". If you can't understand why some people like myself are bothered by this, I don't know what to tell you. It should be very easy to understand.

 

[Blader]

Who the fuck fucking cares. Jesus Christ. Once upon time, comic book readers didn't read fucking solicitations, they read fucking comic books. Read 52. Read R.I.P. Read Final Crisis. You honestly that that Grant Morrison wasn't thinking about what he put Shilo Norman through when he thought up the Nanda Parbat sequences? Do you think that all of a sudden at the end of Final Crisis #6, reality stopped getting fucked around? You don't think that Bruce Wayne was propelled to that moment by what he went through in Nanda Parbat, and how all that unleashed the evil he had to face in R.I.P.? I mean, seriously. I get that the nature of the comic buying public dictates that anyone can just read a series like Final Crisis and it should make sense, and it does make sense. No one just shows up out of nowhere. But if you're talking about meaning and fucking resonance then you can't just erase out ALL the other Batman material Morrison wrote. Do you think he just compartmentalized all of it into separate boxes where the rest of his brain would never find it and just write all these other stories independently of the others?

People keep blaming DiDio for this and for that, but really you can't fault Morrison only having one brain where all this shit intermingles. He's been writing the story of Bruce Wayne for like three or four years now. It's not anyone else's fault if you missed some of it, because I'm not making shit up. It's there.

All right, I've got something to ask you then. It's going to sound condescending and sarcastic, but it isn't, I'm being totally serious. I want you to spell it out for me, because I must be missing something:

On a thematic level, how does 52, RIP, and Final Crisis all connect? You said what we went through in Nanda Parbat connects to what he did in RIP and to ultimately what happened in Final Crisis. But I don't understand it; please explain to me how they connect together. Because honestly, I don't see how Bruce's story in 52 and RIP affected what he did in Final Crisis.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

No, I don't. I feel as if that could have happened without any of Morrison's run.

And who cares? I do. Many others are sharing the opinion as well. It's not even fucking solicits. They did a damn story called R.I.P., said they wouldn't physically kill Batman, then in an unrelated story in a big company event DIRECTLY AFTER, what'd they do? They physically kill Batman. It's a fucking weak way to do things, and I applaud you if you somehow don't let damper your experience reading the comic, but it does for me and many others. All three employees at my LCS today were talking about how Final Crisis is a clusterfuck and the one really meaningful moment (his death, before I knew exactly what happened, they just talked about "what happened" in the issue) felt detached and anti-climatic.

If you're not bothered by it, then fine. But don't say something like "who fucking cares". If you can't understand why some people like myself are bothered by this, I don't know what to tell you. It should be very easy to understand.

Jeepers, "Who cares" was not a literal question needing answering. I'm not so dense as to not realize that people think Final Crisis is a "clusterfuck". But as someone who's been reading everything Morrison has written about this character, I get what he's doing here. I don't expect everyone to have paid as much attention as I have.

You can read Lolita as a stroke book and think it's not very good. Or you can study Lolita and realize what Nabokov was doing. It doesn't invalidate your disappointment, nor does it make closer inspection a useless endeavor.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

All right, I've got something to ask you then. It's going to sound condescending and sarcastic, but it isn't, I'm being totally serious. I want you to spell it out for me, because I must be missing something:

On a thematic level, how does 52, RIP, and Final Crisis all connect? You said what we went through in Nanda Parbat connects to what he did in RIP and to ultimately what happened in Final Crisis. But I don't understand it; please explain to me how they connect together. Because honestly, I don't see how Bruce's story in 52 and RIP affected what he did in Final Crisis.

I saw a pretty clear connection between what Bruce expunged in 52 to what he ended up facing in R.I.P. I think he even says something to that effect in the helicopter sequence. I think that's central, as you saw in the two followup issues, to him freeing himself. When nearly every other unpowered human was unable to resist the Anti-Life Equation, Morrison showed us over the course of his Batman run exactly what allowed him to do that, without the aid of the signal that Metron had shown Mr. Miracle, etc. The most acute self-awareness on Earth, cultivated through his experiences in Nanda Parbat and honed in his confrontation with the manifestation of that expunged evil.

 

[distantmantra]

What a second, what happened?

Please spoil me rotten.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

What a second, what happened?

Please spoil me rotten.

In Final Crisis #6?

Spoiler

Batman shoots Darkseid with the god-killing bullet that took down Orion, Darkseid zaps Batman with his Omega Sanction eyebeams, issue ends with an enraged Superman carrying the skeletal corpse of Batman in his arms as the world falls into oblivion.

Epic.

 

[Vyer]

:lol

No matter the company, no matter the character, no matter the writer or artist - every time something like 'this' happens to a major hero, the internet rants are pretty much guaranteed. You would think folks would learn by now.

 

[ToyMachine228]

No it didn't, RIP is a great run that can stand on it's own.

Seriously, I loved every second of Batman RIP even if it didn't end the way the title infers. But I'm really happy with the actual end that Batman meets in Final Crisis #6. It isn't like he just disappears...It actually happens. I love it.

 

[Prime crotch]

All right, I've got something to ask you then. It's going to sound condescending and sarcastic, but it isn't, I'm being totally serious. I want you to spell it out for me, because I must be missing something:

On a thematic level, how does 52, RIP, and Final Crisis all connect? You said what we went through in Nanda Parbat connects to what he did in RIP and to ultimately what happened in Final Crisis. But I don't understand it; please explain to me how they connect together. Because honestly, I don't see how Bruce's story in 52 and RIP affected what he did in Final Crisis.

I honestly don't remember 52, so I can't help ya there, but RIP was written by the same author, about the same character, on the same planned strict timeline that only his books adheres to (look at the RIP tie-ins mess). RIP is character build-up for Morrison's run alone.

 

[Splatt]

On a thematic level, how does 52, RIP, and Final Crisis all connect? You said what we went through in Nanda Parbat connects to what he did in RIP and to ultimately what happened in Final Crisis. But I don't understand it; please explain to me how they connect together. Because honestly, I don't see how Bruce's story in 52 and RIP affected what he did in Final Crisis.

Yes. Please explain this.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Yes. Please explain this.

I already did. I answered his post right there on this page.

 

[Splatt]

I already did. I answered his post right there on this page.

Oh wow. I completely skipped over that post. I'm so stupid *smacks himself on the forehead*

 

[FoneBone]

People keep blaming DiDio for this and for that

This is the death of a massive icon that's been around for 70 years. Did you come up with the idea yourself? Did Dan approach you? How did the lead up happen?
MORRISON: I was kind of approached by Dan to do something like this once he heard the title of "Batman R.I.P," which for me was more of a psychological deconstruction of Batman. Dan saw a way to tie things together. And I keep on stressing for people not to think of this as death. This is part of the story. There's more cool sh-- to come. It'd be too easy to think of this as the end.

Great interview, though.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Great interview, though.

MORRISON: Yeah. This is one of the things we planned to do way back at the start when Final Crisis was first getting discussed. I think this goes way back to 2006, when we started on it. Dan Didio and I tied it together with what was going on in "Batman R.I.P" to try and get everything to flow toward this.

I mean, seriously.

 

[distantmantra]

In Final Crisis #6?

Spoiler

Batman shoots Darkseid with the god-killing bullet that took down Orion, Darkseid zaps Batman with his Omega Sanction eyebeams, issue ends with an enraged Superman carrying the skeletal corpse of Batman in his arms as the world falls into oblivion.

Epic.

So,

Spoiler

did the events of RIP actually happen?

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

So,

Spoiler

did the events of RIP actually happen?

RIP is part of the Omega Sanction? Hmmm....

 

[krypt0nian]

RIP is part of the Omega Sanction? Hmmm....

That would be amazing.

 

[ZeoVGM]

So,

Spoiler

did the events of RIP actually happen?

Yes. Wouldn't that mean a lot before RIP didn't happen?

And wouldn't that mean things in Nightwing and Robin didn't happen?

 

[ToyMachine228]

Here's some more predictions for the Batman universe based on Final Crisis #6...I'll spoiler tag them since they potentially COULD be spoilers. But they're just guesses.

Spoiler

Obviously, Bruce actually is dead. But it's a lock that he will one day return. How? My prediction? The Blackest Night. As a Black Lantern. For those of you who don't know, dead heroes will be Black Lanterns. And Didio has hinted that pretty much every significant dead DC hero ever will be a black lantern...So Bruce is an obvious candidate.

And as I've predicted before, he's my predictions for the Batman universe without Bruce...

- If you've been reading Nightwing, Tomasi is DEFINITELY building Dick Grayson up to take over as Batman. The rivalry between Dick and Two-Face is now almost equal to that of Bruce and the Joker. The comments made by Ra's in the newest issues DEFINITELY hint that Dick will be Batman. Ra's tells him that he has become Bruce, and at the end calls Dick "Detective" the same thing he calls Bruce. Plus there's been a million other minor hints in Nightwing here and there. Like Dick talking in Bruce's "growl" without noticing it, etc.

- As for the rest of the Batman universe...
- Tim Drake will go solo as Red Robin. He pretty much sees Dick as his equal, not his side-kick. Tim also did actually don the Red Robin suit in the previous issue of Robin.
- Damian will be Robin under Dick. The teaser images with an extremely short Robin with Batman throughout Batman RIP hint at this. Damian has also wanted to be Robin since he arrived in Gotham. And with Tim taking on Red Robin, that leaves the slot open to him.

That's it for now. Can't wait for Battle for the Cowl and Blackest Night. I thought Blackest Night was going to be mainly a Lantern story, but it definitely looks like it's expanding. Especially if my prediction is correct.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Bruce could very well be a Black Lantern (as long as he's flanked by his parents) but he'll be coming back after beating the Death Trap. I'd almost guarantee it.

 

[the year 20XX]

Wait...

Spoiler

Batman killed a guy?

 

[Tamanon]

Wait...

Spoiler

Batman killed a god?

Fixed.

And we're still not sure he actually did.

 

[ZeoVGM]

That's it for now. Can't wait for Battle for the Cowl and Blackest Night. I thought Blackest Night was going to be mainly a Lantern story, but it definitely looks like it's expanding. Especially if my prediction is correct.

They said it's going to be a mini, ala FC and SI, not just in the GL titles like Sinestro Corps War.

Personally, I think this could be the best summer event this decade (House of M is currently my favorite, though I doubt it's popular around here -- WWH takes second place). I can't fucking wait.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Fixed.

And we're still not sure he actually did.

I'd honestly be disappointed if he finally made that hard decision and ended up only wounding him and dying because of it. Now THAT would feel cheap.

I have no problem with him actually using a gun. Morrison's reasoning in the Wizard interview made great sense.